This isn’t meant to be insulting or offensive. I’m asking honestly, as a gay man.
>I have a male body, but I feel like a woman.
How do you know what being a woman feels like, when you were never biologically a woman? Technically, you’d have no frame of reference. You’re just guessing.

>Okay, fine. I don’t feel like a woman, but I prefer the societal role that I see women have.
Those roles are determined by biology too, though. It’s like you want all the social benefits of being a woman while still enjoying all the advantages of being a man.

>Okay, fine. It turns me on, and it’s fun.
Then aren’t you just a drag queen? How is being trans meaningfully different than drag?

>>40114309 (OP)
Being trans means to take steps to present as the opposite gender and/or sex you were assigned at birth and people do it for a variety of reasons.

>>40114321
That goes to my last question, then. How is that different from crossdressing? And why should people use female pronouns for a man crossdressing?

>>40114350
>How is that different from crossdressing?
Trans people identify as their preferred gender and cross dressers don't
>And why should people use female pronouns for a man crossdressing?
So I guess when you said that this isn't meant to be insulting or offensive you were just lying

>>40114309 (OP)
im gonna give you my story in good faith
>some of my first memories are of wishing i was a girl af 4-5 years old
>as a kid i grew up praying i would be a girl when i woke up the next day
>puberty makes me start masculinizing, i hate it, feel literally disconnected from my body, increasingly come to feel disgusted with my body
eventually i got diagnosed with gender dysphoria. it's not fun. it can literally make you painfully sad. transition has helped me fix that, including both medical transition such as hrt and surgeries i havent had yet, and social transition, or living as a woman. both have helped me immensely

>>40114350
>How is that different from crossdressing?
??? cause crossdressing is just wearing different clothes. it's not inherently trying to present as a different gender, that's just one particular form of it, and a pretty minor and rare form
crossdressing is generally not done with the intention of passing as a different gender

concern trolling remains undefeated

>>40114376
we just like talking cause we have no social lives. genuinely this doesn't do shit for politics either way and we all know it

It means you want to categorically distance yourself from the perceived mass wrongdoings of homosexuals.

>>40114309 (OP)
>How do you know what being a woman feels like, when you were never biologically a woman? Technically, you’d have no frame of reference.
>>Okay, fine. I don’t feel like a woman, but I prefer the societal role that I see women have.
Those roles are determined by biology too, though.
There's this thing called "Gender Dysphoria". People who suffer it have this sense of "being in the wrong body" you yourself added that "roles are dtermined by biology too" so it would make sense there's something in their brain telling them their brain and body don't quite match, this is why they seek treatment.
>>Okay, fine. It turns me on, and it’s fun.
Then aren’t you just a drag queen?
That's a different thing entirely.

>>40114412
>There's this thing called "Gender Dysphoria".
meaning you don't want to be maligned as gay

Being trans mean you’re Lily

>>40114420
if that's true why do gaydens and transbians exist

>gets called a troll
>abandons thread
Low effort, OP

>>40114372
That circles back to my first question, then. How can you identify with a feeling you don’t even understand? For all we know, none of us understand how the opposite sex feels at all. We’ve never lived it, so how can you identify as the opposite sex?

This reminds me of my first couple of times meeting FTM trans people. I had a very visceral reaction. They were trying their best, but I couldn’t help noticing that they weren’t acting like men. They were guessing, and reenacting a very stereotypical image of a man. In these cases, FTMs trying to act like dudebros. I really do wonder if TERFs have that same reaction toward MTFs. It’s like the uncanny valley effect. They see you’re doing everything you can to look and behave like a women, but it sets off instant “uncanny valley” alarm bells off in their heads.

This user on X (pic real) was going viral earlier in the week and while I didn’t see anything rally off, all the female replies indicated it was immediately obviously a man.

>>40114420
trannies are literally more maligned.

>>40114309 (OP)
I personally don't claim to feel like a woman, but I wish I could.
>Those roles are determined by biology too, though. It’s like you want all the social benefits of being a woman while still enjoying all the advantages of being a man.
huh? what advantages is there to being visibly male while wearing a dress. everyone will call you a faggot and if they don't they'll creep on you because they're into that. sometimes you'll get both at once. i'm like mildly passable at best after 5 years of hrt and i've gotten all kinds of weird sexual comments from guys, and nothing about that really says "I enjoy the advantages of being a man". being visibly trans is honestly a worst of both worlds kind of situation.
Also pro-tip, next time you make one of these threads don't phrase your questions in the most strawman-ass phrasing possible.

>>40114460
>How can you identify with a feeling you don’t even understand? For all we know, none of us understand how the opposite sex feels at all. We’ve never lived it, so how can you identify as the opposite sex?
It's not the feeling that you are the opposite sex, it's the feeling that your birth sex, and by extension your body, is wrong.

>>40114462
clearly not or there wouldn't be so many of you lol, like you say one thing, but reality demonstrates something different is going on that you won't talk about

>>40114460
no trans woman "knows" what it "feels like to be a cis woman," if there is such a thing.
many trannies just transition to be ourselves. im not trying to be anyone else

>>40114457
Definitely not trolling. I don’t understand what legitimately differentiates trans from just crossdressing.

And I see a lot of so-called transbians hate the idea of being called gay men, but they’re saying another transbian with male chromosomes, genitals, etc. — in my mind, I don’t understand how that relationship is any different to two gay men; except, they “feel like women”, but can’t exactly know what it means to feel like a woman. They only have a third person view of women.

>>40114478
there are more cis gay people than trans people(3-10% vs 0.1%), and the majority of trans people (2/3) have a gay identity and defend their right to call themselves gay and proudly call themselves gay

>>40114481
I think most people are fine with self expression, but it seems like trans women want to be treated like cis women and referred to with female pronouns. That’s when you’re demanding other people change, so it extends beyond being yourself for sure.

>>40114490
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/06/07/about-5-of-young-adults-in-the-u-s-say-their-gender-is-different-from-their-sex-assigned-at-birth/

The share of U.S. adults who are transgender is particularly high among adults younger than 25. In this age group, 3.1% are a trans man or a trans woman,

>>40114502
from my perspective at least, being treated like and referred to as a woman helps me feel less dysphoric. that's why we ask for it, it's basically just a small step that might seem really silly to cis people but does increase trans peoples quality of life.

>>40114309 (OP)
>1
Nobody knows what being a woman is and nobody knows what being a man is we are just people in bodies
>2
Social roles are determined by how u are viewed in society - if u pass for female u have the role for woman and vice versa
>3
Drag is a job / hobby, being trans is a medical disorder

>>40114531
A woman is an adult human where a majority of her cells lack a y chromosome.

>>40114508
even this article shows it as 2%

i think a lot of those cases unironically aren't on hrt or are really transitioning, because the highest number ive seen was like 0.5%
pull up the numbers for gay people i bet its higher
and pull up the numbers for gay trans people

>>40114542
I'm too tired to look, but what I remember gay percentage is 1% typically. Never 10%.

>>40114555
https://news.gallup.com/poll/611864/lgbtq-identification.aspx

>>40114540
Nah, a woman is a human who goes to the grocery store and gets called ma’am
A hairy ogre guy on testosterone at the gym isnt a woman just because of his chromosomes and i dont want him in the womans washroom

>>40114460
>how can you know something you do not understand
I know I can flex my arm because it’s a part of my body but I don’t understand how it works exactly as I do so. Similarly I know I am a woman because it’s a part of my gender identity but I don’t understand how this came to be.
To assume one must understand something to know it to be true is fallacious and you broach the question as an argument from incredulity.

>>40114644
Again, what do you mean by that? What does feeling like a woman mean?

>>40114655
what do you mean by feel?

>>40114578
actually being on hrt to enter womans bathroom seems pretty reasonable

>>40114542
That doesn't explain what it's like to FEEL like a woman
It just explains what a biological woman is

>>40114309 (OP)
stop entertaining gincel threads you retarded niggers. They will lead nowhere.

>>40114460
>How can you identify with a feeling you don’t even understand?
If someone explained what it feels like to drown, I can still understand even though I have never drowned

>>40116079
>what it feels like to be a woman
oooh clumsy language its over

i also addressed it here
>>40114481
>>40114523

>>40114309 (OP)
That's the thing, they can't ever achieve womanhood. They can take off the disguise any time. You hit the nail on the head when you said
>While still enjoying all the advantages of being a man
Never let anyone tell you that transgenders are not privileged men

>>40114374
How could you feel like a woman as a child when you could never know what that feels like?

>>40114309 (OP)
just troon already you fucking bitterhon

>>40116108
thanks for the heccin' validation fella

>>40114462
Proof?

>>40114350
transsexuals medically transition (take hormones, get surgeries)

>>40116116
check your privilege cissie

>>40116119
When your argument fails all you have is slurs.

>>40116112
why are you assuming you can't ever know what something feels like if you hadn't experienced it?
Do you think people without empathy are drooling retarded niggers that can't understand other people too?

>>40116124
>slur
you probably think trannies (slur btw) are persecuting western christians, as well

>>40116128
No, I don't but they do present a risk to natal women. Your lashing out reaffirms that for me.

>>40116112
>how could you feel like a woman as a child
that's not what i said. i wanted to be a girl. not like wanting to be someone else or knowing how girls felt, i just wished i had been born a girl. when i first heard of reincarnation i wanted to be reincarnated as a girl. when i got towards puberty it turned into feeling disconnected and uncomfortable with my body to the point of spending almost all day every day with my chest hurting from sadness
transitioning has helped
>>40116116
google skrmetti
and if you agree with the ruling and are gonna say it's good you're proving me right because it's still pretty radical to argue trannies should have a shot at equal quality of life to cis people

>>40116133
>o-oh my god -- opinions? from a tranny? MALE MALE MALE SHUT UP YOU'RE MALE
once again, thanks for the heccin' validation bud

>>40114309 (OP)
>as a gay man.
You’re a woman, so you should know exactly what being a woman feels like.

>>40116145
I take it you're a FTM? Ironically, you're the only one on this thread who should understand what being a woman feels like. Do you really think a natal male can ever know what that feels like?

>>40116193
not only do i think that, i would even go further, and say trans women (hons specifically) are the only real women bc they get all of the social stigmas that are directed at women, and all of the social stigmas that are directed at men, but none of the privileges of either. that makes them the most victimized i.e. the most "womanly" according to your terf(ascist) logic

>>40116216
>All of the social stigmas that are directed at women, and all of the social stigmas that are directed at men
Do you notice how there are only the two? There are social stigmas for women and for men, but why not any specifically for transgenders?
>>40116135
You are incoherent

>>40116240
>but why not any specifically for transgenders
you're so fucking dumb lmao. tell me you live on terf island without telling me you live on terf island

>>40114309 (OP)
>How do you know what being a woman feels like, when you were never biologically a woman? Technically, you’d have no frame of reference. You’re just guessing.
How do you know there is a shared experience of "womanhood"? Or a shared experience of "manhood"? Or a shared experience of "the color blue"?
Seriously though, how do you know that? You hang around with other women or men, sure, and perhaps they use the same language to describe aspects of their life that you do, and then you meet people in the "opposite" category and they use different language to describe aspects of their life than you do. So you start to feel confident that there are "real" differences between women and men and what those differences are.
But if, as you said, a woman can never understand the experience of manhood, and a man can never understand the experience of womanhood, then how can a woman understand that "manhood is different than womanhood"?
To give a more concrete example, you meet someone with the same sex/gender who speaks a different language than you, and there is no overlap. You Google translate and ask them to describe the experience of "manhood" or "womanhood" as appropriate, and they answer in their native language. They use completely different words than you use to describe it, just by virtue of being a different language. How do you know they share the same fundamental experience of "manhood" or "womanhood"?
Perhaps your Google translate spits out the words you recognize in your own language. But do they really represent the same experiences? Or did the process of translation just pick words that "correlate" well to words in your own language? Translation is asking a "man" what they call themselves, and they answer "homme", and if this pattern repeats enough you assume the words hit on the same concept or category. But we both know "Englishman" and "Frenchman" are different categories, so why is English "man" and French "homme" the same category?

>>40116325 (cont)
The same goes for your native language. You can point to a "duck" and agree with another native speaker that thing is a "duck". You can point to a "man" and agree with another native speaker that person is a "man". Those are concrete objects. But can you point to "the feeling of being a man" and have another person really know what you are talking about?
You just denied that a woman can listen to a man describe "the feeling of being a man" and understand what that person really feels. So you posit that language does not accurately communicate "the feeling of being a man". So how can any man describe "the feeling of being a man" and have another man go, "yes, I understand that feeling too."
Basically, you've constructed a world where no feelings at all can be communicated to anyone else, ever. At best, what you are doing is hearing people around you use certain words, and parroting those words back to them. And because "this person looks like me!" you think you have some special, shared understanding when you use certain words, and because "that person doesn't look like me!" you think that person can't possibly understand when you use the exact same words.

Or... maybe... we do live in a world where words can communicate abstract concepts, and any concept or feeling can be communicated to any other human being, given enough time and effort to understand the person, their experiences, and their language? And certain divides are tougher than others (e.g. language, culture, neurodivergence), but with the powers of reason, creativity, and extrapolation, any mind can eventually come to agreement with any other.

People are just really opposed to the idea of biological determinism, and that some people are born mentally intersex in a manner of speaking, and that gays and lesbians literally prove it.

>>40116126
>why are you assuming you can't ever know what something feels like if you hadn't experienced it?

actual tranny argument in 2025 lmfao

>>40114309 (OP)
Hormones change biology faggot

day infinity of having to prove it to people who dont feel it

I still don’t understand the arguments here. I accept that some trans women may have body dysmorphia, and I’m not discounting that. But that is a lot different than feeling like a woman, which you have no frame of reference for. Even the ultra feminine-acting trans women often reveal their innate male instincts in most situations. Their brains just function in a distinctly male way. Same goes for FTM trans people, I’d imagine.

I think the trans issue would pretty much resolve itself it you all compromised and self identified as men (which you technically are) and stop getting angry when you are referred to as he/him. In exchange, people would be fine with you not necessarily confirming to gender norms through your clothing, behavior, etc. Just stop forcing people to pretend you’re actually women. You’re not.

>>40116515
You keep saying "frame of reference", but what the fuck does that actually mean? Be specific.

>>40116429
Answer the question
Not a tranny btw, just an autist who's tired of retarded arguments like these. Do you drooling monkey midwits not have a concept of logically putting together an experience from someone's relation of it?
>>40116515
>ermm id like trannies if they just looked like men and stopped hurting my little feefees
>what is medical transition

Being trans is a religious form of crossgenderism. They take their female form to the next level.

The same way religion is just obsessing over the canon of some story, and Star Wars is no different.

>>40116515
>id like trannies if they stopped being trannies and were just le kween slay man with makeup and nails
so you dont like trannies and dont want them to exist.

>>40116524
You’ve never been a woman, so you don’t know what being a woman feels like.

Bringing animal references into LGBT discussions and debates is pretty cringe, but it would be like saying you feel like a dogs”. You have no idea what being a dog is besides your third person view. You can mimic the dog, sure. But you don’t feel like a dog.

Same goes for the trans discussion. A lot of trans women even default to “skin walking” or mimicking a close female friend or family member, because the truth is that they don’t actually feel female. They know their best bet is to just copy and re enact one.

>>40116549
I’m aware of what medical transition is. Taking hormones and sometimes plastic surgery to appear more female. But I haven’t been given any evidence to suggest it isn’t mostly a cosmetic endeavor. Even on /lgbt/ these procedures are only discussed in the pursuit of “passing”. There’s more to bring a woman than just hormones. For example, it’s obvious that they have different brains that work differently than male brains.

>>40116571
>le skinwalking
like you skinwalk your favourite hetero couples because deep inside you realize there's no such thing as "homosexuality" and it's just your deep rooted hatred of women?

>>40116571
>a drooling 3iq dog is the same as le homan femyle
least misogynystic faggot, but alas
why are you comparing an animal to a living breathing human being that is fully able to verbally describe their experience?

>>40116588
>But I haven’t been given any evidence to suggest it isn’t mostly a cosmetic endeavor.
Okay let's remove your testicles and see how cosmetic you think it feels.

>>40116604
Nta but you cannot explain something you can never fully understand

>>40116571
But how do you know feeling like a woman feels different than feeling like a man?
By your own claims, it's impossible for you to feel like a woman, so how can you conclusively say it's different than your experience as a man? And how do you know what those differences are? You "have no frame of reference" for it.

>>40116604
What exactly do you relate to when you hear a woman describe her experience?

>>40116617
I still wouldn’t be a woman. You’re actually making my argument for me. No matter how much estrogen you’ve taken, you’re still a man.

>>40116750
A eunuch is a eunuch, not a man.

>>40116762
Eunuch isn't a gender...

>>40116769
It’s a biological reality.

>>40116775
Yeah, a man without balls is a biological reality, but that doesn't make him less of a man any more than lacking a finger makes you less of a human.

>>40116793
It does though. It causes muscle wasting, and many other physical and mental changes. And eunuchs are at high risk of being physically overpowered and possibly abused or assaulted by intact men, which is why they were sorted with women in antiquity. How sad that people thousands of years ago had more sense than you do.

>>40116806
So, weak men aren't men? Eunuchs also weren't considered a brand new gender in the past, even if you write fetish stories saying otherwise

>>40116825
>So, weak men aren't men?
If they have no testes, yes. It’s testosterone that makes men a threat, and why the sexes are segregated. We know who commits the majority of violent crime and why. We neuter animals to change their behavior. You think this doesn’t work in humans? It works in exactly the same way.

>>40116839
So, being male is defined by being a threat?

>>40116851
Aren’t they?

Trannies have an opposite gender sense of proprioception
Gays have an opposite gender sexuality

These are caused by hormonal imbalances in utero affecting brain development

>>40114309 (OP)

>How do you know what being a woman feels like, when you were never biologically a woman? Technically, you’d have no frame of reference. You’re just guessing.

Being trans and being a trans woman/man are not the same thing. Being trans means feeling like you should be a woman/man, not feeling like a woman/man.

Being a trans woman/man means being a woman/man. The category of woman has expanded to trans women/men.

Hope that was simple enough for you.

>>40116889

>category of woman
category of woman/man*

It’s not that we “feel like a woman” it’s that we identify with female people. I don’t know how to describe that other than that we have a deep seated sense that we *should* be female and appear female, have female hormones in our system, and etc.

I don’t think you should be “forced” to refer to me as anything but I won’t want to interact with you if you refer to me socially as male, as it makes me extremely uncomfortable. I can’t really control that. I have people in my life who perceive me as female and thats good enough to me. If you clock me as male you can sure refer to me as male you are just basically fucking with me and I will want to be around you as little as possible. Thankfully this doesn’t really happen to me

>>40114309 (OP)
Male women exist. Male/female is for sex(body type 1 and body type 2). Man/woman is for gender. Trans women only act uncanny because many of them were socialized as boys. Gender is a social construct and is not biologically determined. Sex is.

So to answer your questions: trans women know what feeling like a woman is because they are women. You can look at a brain scan and see much of it. The roles are solely socially constructed, at least in the modern age. We aren't forced into roles due to our physeology anymore because we have technology now, with the sole exception being birth giving(which can be bypassed via a surrogacy or being an anti-natalist) Females can do anything males can do. Males can do anything females can do. With hrt and surgery, we can even pass as the other sex. Being trans is different because it's part of their identity rather than just an outfit they wear or a thing they do.

Trans women won't admit this, but they call themselves male all the time. They say they're amab. That means assigned male at birth(but don't say it out loud in full like that. Trans women are trying to move away from their sex since it's still obsolitely tied up with gender. They'd rather have it intellectualized and confusing and not specify the difference between sex and gender to people and muddy the waters as a rehitorical tactic to get validated more often. You will see accusations of concern trolling and people trying to put you in bad faith rather than accept that you're just curious.). They are male women. You're obsessed with male behavior and probably don't want to come to terms with that you're actually bi for being attracted to trans women.

>>40114655
obtuse OP, just read the fucking reply again

Watch this docu.
The psychiatrist asks the tranny this exact question. They go around in circles for 30 minutes and never get answer.
He then asks a cis woman the question, and even she can’t give an answer.

>>40116986
>>40114670

Literally jordan peterson haha. Isn't jk rowling an INFJ as well. That's interesting.

>ctrlf AGP
>0 results
>ctrlf HSTS
>0 results
>ctrlf vlanchard
>0 results
oh how the tables have turned

>>40116588
>Even on /lgbt/ these procedures are only discussed in the pursuit of “passing”

your oh so great "frame of reference" is a shit board on 4 chan, no wonder you're just a mysoginistic faggot op

I dont know how cis retards can feel extreme discomfort from gyno (literally just 1 part of the body) and not put 2 and 2 together

>>40116588
And also for comfort

>>40117071
Well, straight people have always had a really hard time understanding homosexuality until you start explaining it in terms of straight people. Like, just the way a straight guy is attracted to women and feels nothing towards guys (and is grossed out by the thought of that), gay guys feel exactly the opposite. Even then, they still don't always get it.
I guess cis people can't really understand it until you directly compare how a cis man with gyno feels to how a trans man feels.

>>40114309 (OP)
>You’re just guessing.
That's good enough, THOUGH. If anything, everyone naturally has a good idea of what it feels like to be the opposite sex, whether you are cis or trans, man or woman. The human mind evolved independent of sex and your very genes hold the exact blueprint to being both a man and a woman, it only just so happened that you had this or that hormone wash before you were born, so your body is following one of the 2 blueprints of sex that you have.

>>40117053
How am I a misogynist?

>>40114309 (OP)
Not trans but I recall hearing about how a trans woman's brain patterns are similar to a cis woman's. Which would explain the dysphoria.

>>40114372
*Trans people identify as their preferred gender and cross dressers don't outside of drag shows where they are playing a character.

>>40114309 (OP)
To me it means, simply put, having certain female desires and needs that are associated with being a woman, either culturally or biologically.

As a little boy, around age 7, I experienced a kind of disconnect. I saw girls and I wanted to, at the very least, be able to dress like them, but this caused immense stress to my psyche, because I was raised in a rather turbulent household and I felt no sense of safety nor did I feel like I could be allowed to express these feelings openly. There was too much going on at home.
Apart from the desire to be able to dress and present as a girl, I also sometimes had fantasies of being a mother or being a female heroine.
By the way, I also experienced plenty of fantasies of being a father or being a male hero, although I really wasn't occupied with the whole gender aspect of it all. These were thoughts, feelings and fantasies I had when I was a kid.

Around age 14, things developed in a deeper way, with fantasies of being a girl and having a boyfriend. BUT I also was attracted to girls, romantically and when I was around 17/18 also sexually, but also to men in my fantasies.

Fantasies of being married to a kind but tough man and being carried off in his arms from the altar also popped up now and then, as was being a mother, and a successful career wise as a woman.
These were always desires and needs. Now and then wanting to be able to be pregnant, fantasizing about being pregnant.

Now, I can't say I know what it feels like to be a woman, all I can tell is I've always had these feelings, alongside a male identity and male feelings. Everyone is different, this has been my experience, and it still is my experience.
I care not for being called ma'am or sir. I just don't care about that struff at all. I simply do not wish to attract attention, nor do I wish to make others uncomfortable. I also wished for the longest time I did not have these feelings and I tried to kind of ignore them, but it never worked.

>What does being trans actually mean?
transitioning, socially (via clothes, speech, etc.) or medically
>I have a male body, but I feel like a woman.
feeling like a woman is a meme and is just trying to articulate the feeling of wrongness with being a man and gravitating towards being a woman that is inherent in gender dysphoria

>>40117397
Where did you hear that? It sounds like pseudoscience.

>>40116126
Knowing what something feels like is experiencing it. You are describing qualia. It's the same thing. You can reason based off of induction what it might be like to skydive, but from the words that you chose, you will never be able to feel it unless you actually skydive. That's the entire point of experience. Even if a female fulls medically transitions into a man, they will never know what it feels like to be born and live as a male.

>>40118182
You claim many studies are pseudoscience, usually the ones that make you look bad
>>40119927
But why?

>>40120010
If you buy into the analytic synthetic distinction, then it's just going to be baked into the sense of the word experience. To experience is to feel, it's analytically true or true because of the meaning of the word itself. Transness has absolutely nothing to do with sex, though. It has to do with gender and its expression. Under certain views of gender, it would be fair to say that trans people can experience other genders because they can become them. Not everyone is going to share that view of gender and experience of it, though.
>>40116953
The brain scan science has been subject to valid criticism which shows that a human brains are not gendered in that way. There are sex based differences but not gender based differences that warrant transness being based on brain scans.

>>40120249
No tranny ever has been diagnosed on the basis of a brain scan.

>>40120249
>Transness has absolutely nothing to do with sex, though
It has everything to do with sex. We experience dysphoria because of our sex.

>>40120249
>Transness has absolutely nothing to do with sex,
GOD i wish i lived in a world where this was true

>>40120262
My point exactly, it's a red herring.
>>40120264
That's an equivocation on transgenderism. I agree that gender dysphoria and other mental states trans people experience are directly related to their sex (and sex characteristics). My point was that transness has nothing to do with sex in that the enterprise of being transgender is not seeking to alter the sex (i.e. being male or female); rather, transgenderism has to do with gender/its expression. Gender and sex are related but not the same.
>>40120281
Same as above.

>>40120317
altering the sexual sex characteristics is altering sex

>>40114309 (OP)
>How do you know what being a woman feels like, when you were never biologically a woman?
i have a sensation of prediction error when observing my body. at a preconscious level, my brain expects to find itself in a different body. through introspection, imagination, and observing the line of causality from hrt to physical changes to mental changes in that sensation of prediction error, i conclude that the body it expects to find is approximately that of an ordinary human woman.
this is what trans people mean when they say they feel like a woman/man, and by going into further detail like this you can see that your question is simply confused: i don't need to have access to cis women's internal experience to be pretty confident that my brain is low-level predicting it will find itself in a female body, and that i can dramatically reduce this feeling of wrongness by modifying my body to more closely match what the brain expects to find.

>>40120317
we definitely seek to alter the sex. that's why we're transsexuals

>>40120342
That's an equivocation on the term sex. If you take sex to refer to hormonal sex, then sure. The same is true for secondary sex characteristics. But what I mean when I refer to sex is the type of thing referred to in sexually mature animals that can produce large gametes, small gametes, both, or neither. Most people produce either one or the other, and medical transition or any other type of cosmetic surgery is not aimed at changing this fact.

>>40120376
That's not the term I used, and I take umbrage with that term because it confuses and misapplies the concept of biological sex as gamete production. There is a reason transgender is more commonplace now, because cosmetic or hormome-altering procedures are not the same thing as altering sex as it is taken to mean when talking about any other animal.

>>40120317
>the enterprise of being transgender is not seeking to alter the sex (i.e. being male or female)
we are absolutely seeking that. the fact that we have not yet completely succeeded doesn't mean we're not interested in trying.

>>40120423
What I take "seeking to" to mean is within the scope of available means. I understand the old thought experiment of "if I gave you a button and you could resemble x perfectly, would you press it?", but I am talking about how most of these procedures and most of the people who have experienced these procedures exist. That technology isn't there. When it is invented, I will agree with you. Until then, I see the primary target of concern being sex as a hormonal or physical thing. When the concept of sex reassignment surgery encapsulates gamete production, I will change my mind. Until then, I take the position that I brought up earlier.

>>40120400
>that's not the term
fair enough
>it's wrong because sex is gametes
explain intersex people that don't make those. are they sexless? i think ive had this discussion with you before.
>cosmetic
it's far more than just cosmetic, it changes gene expression. our bodies are definitely not just "male" anymore.
>any other animal
any other animal doesn't have the ability to express gender dysphoria, nor do they have easily adjustable language surrounding sex.

>>40120458
i think this whole argument is basically retarded because my desire to change my sex in your narrow sense is not discontinuous with my desire to change it in the broad sense. it's all one thing.

>>40120471
Intersex people are contained within the sex as gamete production because they produce either one or the other, both, or neither. Many are typically infertile and produce neither. There is no further explanation needed, the definition already contains intersex people.
By cosmetic, I mean facial surgery, chest surgery, hair surgery, and/or bottom surgery. Many of those are definitionally cosmetic. The only one I can see you argue is non cosmetic is bottom surgery, to which I would ask: do you have an example of a functional set of genitals createf via bottom surgery? The function here looks something like can have periods or produce sperm (i.e. gamete production). Otherwise, I believe it is cosmetic.
Explain to me how non human animals lacking mental states of dysphoria and language around sex undercuts the definition of biological sex as gamete production? Most of the language we use when describing sexual reproduction in the animal kingdom has to do with sex as gamete production precisely because sex as chromosomes, hormones, or physical traits is much more inconsistent, whereas sex as gamete production (type a, b, both, or neither), to my knowledge, describes all possibilities in sexual reproduction.

>>40120545
I personally don't believe concepts in language can be discontinuous, but that's besides the point. I get the spirit of the point, but it is not all one thing, it's different in virtue of the fact that we do not share the same meaning of the term. I can agree that you desire to change your sex, I have never disagreed with that. My disagreement came from transgender as a conflation of sex and gender, as well as an equivocation of sex as it relates to surgeries. I've never disagreed with your desire or intention, that's not what I mean when I said 'seeks to'.

>>40120579
not gonna have a whole other point by point thread with you gametesbro so ill just address the important stuff
>how does non human animals lacking language disprove gametes
it doesn't, im using it as an example of how humans are creatures that change what we think and reorganize. we categorize, those categories shift. humans didn't know about gametes until invented the microscope, and have never viewed reproduction as the sole goal of life. i think even if you are gonna draw up biological sex around gametes you should STILL have gender because trans people will still have gender dysphoria regardless of the size of their gametes

>>40120620
I agree with most of what you said. I am not a gender abolitionist. I agree concepts change. I don't this gamete production is necessary/sufficient for biological sex (I can imagine a world where animals produce eight gamete types, with many producing multiple types). I agree dysphoria will exist even if our idea of biological sex looked totally different. My point has to do with how sex is meant in other contexts and how gender is not the same as sex. Many trans people don't feel dysphoria towards any of their sex features (gamete production or otherwise), yet they still seek to change their gender and not any sex traits they have. It is not common, but it is possible.

>>40120379
it often removes ability to produce the gametes, which would still alter it? Are you retarded?
>>40120400
>le gamete production
so a definition which is useless in nearly every context excepting reproduciton

>>40120660
im kind of confused what your point is or at least why you bring it up then. i won't lie (this is on me, not you) i figured it was just a bad faith argument you were using to argue that trannies aren't real

>>40120666
Often, but not always. In circumstances which medically transitioning removes it entirely, that would just be castration. I said that most surgeries do not aim at changing this fact. The fact mentioned relates to sex as gamete production (type a, b, both, or neither). The castrated are contained within that fact.
The definition is useful in most cases sex is listed in animals. I'm not a pragmatist on definitions so I don't share that commitment you have.

>>40120698
No, I believe transgenderism is real. I bring it up because sex is quite commonly equivocated as a term, and the dialogue becomes confused. Gender, the term, is confusing enough. Sex, by my lights, is an easier to understand category.
Let me give an example of my point/why I bring it up.
A child is born as a female, develops typically as an adolescent and becomes a sexually mature adult. She identifies as a woman but has some mental state that leads to the desire of being a man. She undergoes surgery to change her secondary sex characteristics and takes hormones to change her body's hormonal levels to better suit her desired gender identity. So far, no issue. She presents as a man and becomes a he. Where the issue stems for me is that this is called some type of sex change when in reality, it is not. It changes certain elements of a person's biological sex, but sex as a concept is defined (as I take it to mean) by gamete production of a certain kind (or none at all). Modern surgeries do not aim to change this because they currently cannot.
In a nutshell, transgenderism is not the same as changing your sex, it is about changing your gender because the basic concept of sex is not changed.

>>40120779
if the trans man in your example gets his uterus and ovaries removed, he has in fact undergone a change of sex by the gametes definition, because he no longer produces eggs.

>>40120779
nobody outside this board uses language connecting it to sex anymore. i myself do because that was the language when dysphoria was taken seriously as the root of being trans and now it's a self expression political thing. ultimately you're right in a biological lens, i just want trans people to be able to be treated as if we has just been born the right way the first time

>>40119927
If you buy into this, then how can you say any other human knows what your experiences are like?
Just because you go skydiving, doesn't mean you had the same experiences that someone else who went skydiving had. There may or may not be common elements, but they are not an identical experience.
How can you be so sure there is a "common experience" of the "male sex" or the "female sex", or the "male gender" or the "female gender"? Even shit to do with the physical body varies person-to-person. Some women have endometriosis and experience "period pain" in a completely different way than other women. Some men are circumcised and others aren't. And on the neurological level, while our nervous system has the same general shape as other humans, the actual individual neurons form connections in completely unique ways in every single person.
Is there any person in the world you can confidently say truly has a "shared experience" with you?

>>40114460
anon how would you feel if you skipped breakfast?

>>40120908
>If you buy into this, then how can you say any other human knows what your experiences are like?
you don't know if any other human being even has experiences at all.
for all you know your consciousness is unique in the universe

>>40120833
Sure, what sex was he before and what sex is he now? I explained how I described all the logically possible outcomes (large gametes, small gameted, both gamete types, no gamete types). Two of those describe sex types, the other two describe a combination or absence of those sex types. Before the operations, he would be described as a female due to the large gamete production. After, he would be described as a eunuch because he no longer produces gametes of any type. Eunuch is not a sex type, though (in the same sense that male/female is a sex type) . The eunuch/hermaphrodite supervene upon male/female types. What I take sex change to mean is that you produce one gamete type, and after the change you produce both or the other gamete type. That's what we mean when we talk about organisms changing their sex in the animal kingdom. The state of being castrated is not a type of sex. I agree with you that it is a change of states and it is related to sex, but I'm taking change to refer to one state of being (of a sex type) to another. What sex would you call the castrated person?

>>40120887
The moral argument is peculiar, I haven't given it much thought. If I had a child and they had these feelings and desires about themselves, I'm not sure how I would react. I think I would be more open to the idea if the medical science advanced such that the transition was more seamless, I wouldn't want my child to "not pass" because that would be much harder. Ultimately, I think I would probably support my child in that case.

>>40120908
Easy: I don't say that.
There isn't a common experience of being a man such that I would have access to the mental states of other men. Qualia is not transmittable.
There isn't a shared experience of being a male, either. If you take "shared experience" to mean something a bit looser like basic empathy or connection with others, of course I believe in that. I see someone suffer or enjoy something, I can relate. But that deflects from the initial point I brought up and deflates the meaning of experience.

>>40114309 (OP)
im a gay dude with a twink peruvian femboy bf. I approve of this message and this post. I hope all the tranny idiots read this and realize how dumb they really are

>>40120994
ultimately, that's what's important. i think you're a good person and im sorry i got mad when we first disagreed!

>>40121092
Yeah, I would accept my child regardless of their stances. If transgenderism is not socially mediated and entirely dependent on external factors (although social factors are also external factors, but whatever), then it would be wrong to judge or outcast these children for those reasons.

>>40121034
Oh, just getting wires crossed with some of the other posters ITT.

Fed up with the mysticism like, "women and men just, like, metaphysically have completely irreconcilable differences in how they see an interact with the world!" except trying to rewrite it in terms of "biology and upbringing" to avoid getting called out on their pseud bullshit.
If you get to claim you have a "women's/men's soul" and that's what makes you your sex/gender, then the tranny gets to claim they have a "women's soul" too because it's equally unproveable.

>>40121092
Also no hard feelings it's just internet stuff it isn't that deep at all.

>>40120967
female to neuter.
it sure seems odd, from the perspective of someone who thinks transness is unrelated to sex, that lots of trans people end up making a similar change. even if we grant your hairsplitting that "a change of state wrt sex" is not what "sex change" means, if a whole bunch of trans people are doing it, it kind of seems like transition has something to do with sex.

>>40114792
They’re talking about trans men, not trans women.

>>40114309 (OP)
>gay man
>thinks drag queens are a fetish thing
Uh-huh sure

>>40121225
of course! a lot of people don't see it that way though.
>>40121263
of course of course, i just can get a little heated because these topics are pretty close to me

>>40121273
Neuter is not a sex like the others, though. It is an absence of sex. The other three categories describe gamete production of a certain type; when we talk about changing sex in, say, alligator eggs via temperature, we are talking about large or small gamete production.
Most trans people, if given a magic button, would choose to produce large or small gamete types (the opposite of the one they were born to eventually develop). Of course the surgeries have something to do with 'sex', as in castration. But sex as sexual reproduction via gamete production isn't concerned with castration in my view. I find the prospect of categorizing that female in my example as a neuter (with neuter being a sex) as absurd. I agree that they are neutered, just that that classification in contrast to males/females/hermaphrodites seems peculiar.

>>40121259
Yeah I'm not a realist when it comes to sex, funnily enough (despite what I've been sating ITT). I might be if the concept is deflated a tad.
I disagree with that soulness you brought up, as well as the male/female brain, too.
It kind of makes the entire gender enterprise far too empirical. If a person says they are trans but gets a brain scan and it states they are in alignment with their assigned gender, is that person no longer trans? It just opens up a bit too much imo.

Anon why are you here asking us when you could just ask cis people what makes them men or women without pointing to genitalia? You're going to get the same answers.
>I feel like X
>my soul is X
>I want to be X
>I simply became X
>everyone told me I was X/my mommy said so
>insert science gamete chromosome answer here that relies on some internal things you can't see (we're back to soul)
>Uhhh idk I just am

>>40121342
Oh, are you transgender yourself? I'm not I just find this issue is quite informative of other positions, I like learning more about how people can disagree on these topics.

>>40121402
>if a person says they are trans but gets a brain scan and it states they are in alignment with their assigned gender, is that person no longer trans?
back when i still put a lot of stock in brain scans i always said id kms if this happened to me, because it would show on a fundamental level i would never be a woman

>>40121436
Yeah that's why gender is a very loaded concept. For some people, that is what it means. Some fact of the matter state of being that is inextricably linked to sexual identity of all types.
I think it's easier for each person to have their own understanding of gender and how it relates to their own sense of self, but social attitudes will not always align with that of course. Whether that is morally right or wrong depends on what gender means to you ig.

>>40121402
I'm an abolitionist when comes to this shit.
We're in a cultural and linguistic movement to redefine existing and create new concepts that allow trans people to create the social roles that they seek out. The ultimate goal should be to create a society that is more inclusive of trans people because the current one is highly exclusive and oppressive.
"Male", "female", "gender", and "sex" are all just words we're fighting a tug-of-war over. The passoid wants to pull linguistics in one direction, the hon wants to pull it into another. But as those words change meaning, it literally creates spaces to exist and has real consequences for larger social dynamics.
I'm personally inclined towards the dilution and de-emphasis of all those concepts. I think the best possible outcome is a society where "male" and "female" cease to mean anything important (they can still have "trivial" meanings like an aesthetic or vibe), and "sex" and "gender" just stop being discussed (e.g. not showing up at all on government ID).
Which is not to say I'm non-binary. I identify as female. But it's just better if we reach a point where it's all utterly insignificant to our daily lives. You can do whatever you want with your body without worrying about how you get sorted into a social category and treated by others on account of that classification.

>>40121487
ultimately the most important thing is protecting access to hrt

>>40121335
Exactly lol. OP is a LARP.

>>40114309 (OP)
I honestly have no idea. I feel and behave like I always wanted to behave, but wouldn't, because that's not how "men" behave and I was bullied for behaving that way as a man.
I also started having scary visions and intrusive thoughts about suicide, cutting my penis off and skinning myself which I simply endured and tried to ignore as much as possible for more than a decade. Then one day the thought "Oh shit I'm trans" popped into my mind (without ever knowing about gender dysphoria as a condition).
As soon as I accepted that and got on HRT, the visions stopped.
Deadname, pronouns, lack of boobs & hips etc. don't really make me very dysphoric, I just want to feel like I can think clearly and not like I'm psychotic. Apparently this happens when I pretend to be a woman *sigh*

>>40121530
I actually disagree entirely, for the same reason I am marginally more pro life than I am pro choice: I think an absence of gender would be anti-life, or anti-natalist. It would encourage people to, like you said, live on their own terms and not by standards set by society. I see these individual choices coalescing around childlessness, kinda like with abortion (being able to bypass the outcome of sex with elective abortions). I don't view these socially enforced norms as a bad thing, in fact I think they are morally neutral. It's more so that they can be used as a useful tool to create outcomes (like a gender binary that results in high birth rates). I still think there should be space for people who feel differently about themselves, but the societal norms regarding gender still have value that I would tend to care about.

>>40120249
>The brain scan science has been subject to valid criticism which shows that a human brains are not gendered in that way. There are sex based differences but not gender based differences that warrant transness being based on brain scans.
Even if true, that doesn't negate what I was saying: Sex is not gender. Trans women know what being a woman is like while they don't know what being of the female sex is like. Gender is just a kind social role. It's culture, not biology.

>>40114309 (OP)
>How do they know?

Im not trans and im not gay but its easy to see for me (i can rationalize it even though i might not be able to justify it).

This is a very convuluted and conflated subject. And politicizing it intensifies the degree to which that holds true.

Basically there are several reasons to transition: the person has a fetish, the person genuinely feels they are a woman, the person knows they are not a woman but have an affinity to the female gender role and what better way to be accepted by society than appearing as one. In all instances it makes the person more comfortable and happier.

>Technically, you’d have no frame of reference
For some cases, imprinting of being their assigned gender did not work. They see how other women behave, speak, and through living vicariously through them gain an affinity for what it is to be a woman. Also their nature may align with those of what is considered a female nature like being submissive, caring, emotional.

With the current political climate, many of the arguments are missed as a result of being cynical and misanthropic. Then the whole transgender movement is to unseat and topple the "patriarchy".

I would continue but Im at the end of my break.

>>40121325
Why did Jamie Wilson transition to male? I don’t understand. She was beautiful as a woman.

>>40114555
You only get numbers higher than 1-3% for all LGBTQ+ total by counting straight women who identify as bi but only have sex with men
Toxic white women fucking up the real count trying to accrue social credit with other toxic white women

>>40123240
>straight women who identify as bi but only have sex with men
It is not possible for a biological woman to have sex with a biological woman, and transgender people make up less than one percent of the population.

>>40122409
I agree sex is not gender. I tentatively agree that trans women know what being a woman is like. Gender is a social role with biological underpinnings, because it overlaps with sex.

>>40121635
I wish OP wasn't a LARP because he brings up good points. Sadly everything on this site has to be a larp or it won't get replies

>>40114350
Im still figuring this out, but i think the reason i want to transition is because I get sad when I have to stop crossdressing and snap back to reality. When I crossdress, i just sort of do what i normally do and it just feels right. When i let my imagination run wild it puts me in a girl body sometimes too which is weird.

Why did this dumb bitch decide to ruin her reputation forever and taint her legacy? Why couldn't she just shut the fuck up and be lauded as one of this generations most famous writers? Why choose to die on this hill? I don't get it.

>>40124423
i dont think i care much about pronouns and stuff btw, but no one has ever gendered me female so idk maybe I will like it more if i start transitioning and presenting as female to others, i didn't think crossdressing would feel so natural before I tried it.

>>40123704
Maybe before we had technology, sure. Nowadays, biological sex isn't what determines what you're capable of most of the time. Gender pivoted from being based on sex to being based on itself. Women are women because they're women and womab does as women do, not because they're of the female sex.

Not strong? Use tools and carry a gun or mace. Not feminine? Use hrt. No dick? Use a strap on or get srs. Giving birth is probably the biggest hurdle and the part where I have to agree, though not entirely since apparently pooners still give birth all the time as men.

>>40114309 (OP)
>It’s like you want all the social benefits of being a woman while still enjoying all the advantages of being a man.

It's fucking hilarious that you think trans women get either of these

>>40124521
I would even argue that gender is somewhat vacuous given how women have entered into society and, effectively, became men in the senses that matter. By that, I mean in the job market and as economic units producing value for the economy. That's a separate discussion, but I see your point. Woman had become recursively defined into itself, without any baggage associated with sexual reproduction/sex. I don't think that's morally good or bad, but if I had to choose, I would reintroduce some of that baggage into the concept of gender.

>>40114309 (OP)
It's when people want to kill you and change your behavior for no reason.

>>40122884
>she

This is corny, but im gonna paste in a quote from the matrix, considering its a trans allegory.

"Being the one is a lot like being in love, nobody can tell you that you are, you just know". That is being trans, just knowing.

And we do have points of reference, half the population is of the opposite sex, we see how they are, and we know that we're closer to them than those of our birth sex

>>40114309 (OP)
it means to suffer from gender dysphoria to the extent that it's better for your mental health to transition

>>40114460
>This user on X (pic real) was going viral earlier in the week and while I didn’t see anything rally off, all the female replies indicated it was immediately obviously a man.
Because it is.

>>40117236
read yourself, retard

>>40114309 (OP)
>This isn’t meant to be insulting or offensive
lol