The atlantic is now the latest in a line of establishment newsrooms declaring war on youngshits.
The future is hons.

It's no secret establishment media is controlled by billionaires, thankfully we'll eat them sooner or later

>>40221856 (OP)
>now
They've been doing this for years by now, it's the premier "centrist" rag along with NYT.

>>40221866
right, right, the billionaires

>>40221856 (OP)
Only mtf should be youngshits, because sexo

>>40221856 (OP)
my bf just showed me this and we talked about how awful her perspective is. her whole discussion of suicide as "emotional manipulation" was noxiously offensive. it's no surprise she looks like a hobbit. her feet are probably hairier than mine

>>40221856 (OP)
cant wave for the new wave of peer pressured teens finding some clever ways to get hrt and hide it from their parents the same way they've been doing it with alcohol and cigs

>>40221866
Hey so are puberty blockers like safe? Iv heard so many conflicting reports

>>40221882
Free Palestine from the river to the sea~

>>40221898
safer than circumcision

>>40221888
trannies suibait all the time though. that's why everyone freaked out over pretty view hon, because a tranny ACTUALLY committed suicide

>erm actually gender affirming care isn't life-saving because doesn't reduce suicides directly, it just reduces depression, suicidal ideation and self-harm!
>checkmate liberals!

>>40221856 (OP)
twinkhon enjoyers stay winning

>>40221917
This is libs signaling to libs, there's no chud in the flowchart

>>40221888
>suicide as "emotional manipulation"
i mean they lied to parents about suicide risks in clinical settings since 2013
thats textbook manipulation

>>40221917
It actually increases it in longer term studies occasionally.

>>40221933
No idea who the writer is, but I'd bet it's some archetype reactionary centrist type like David Brooks or whatever.

>>40221956
source other than your ass?

>>40221956
Could you please link the study?

>>40221856 (OP)
The author is Helen Lewis. She's a well-known British TERF, and has been contributing to The Atlantic for some time.

>>40221961
She's a lib.
Even if she wasn't a lib, the org chart for the paper from editors to verification to legal to middle management is lib. And the execs are neolib.

>>40221965
>>40221969
Linking sources is reddit. The best filter is just to post excerpts cuz anyone that actually isn’t just an autistic debatefag and wants to discuss the post would have the requisite good faith to just like copy a sentence and paste it into google

>>40221898
hormones are better

>>40222004
I want the source because sometimes you are dealing with autistic debatefags and also, I actually just want to read it

>>40221965
>>40221969
Found it https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38154588/
I wonder if that anon meant to leave out the limitations part.

>>40222194
Of course they did.

>>40221888
>suicide as "emotional manipulation"
expressing that life feels like torture when you cannot access the medical care you need is honesty. preventing people from transitioning is cruel and selfish.

>>40221856 (OP)
>Liberals learned about child grooming and don't like it
>OH GOD ITS OVER

>>40222194
The limitations doesn’t have anything particularly damning tho?

>>40222205
Anyway, while I was looking that up I found this other study with a larger sample size and a longer term length. You can tell that anon doesn’t know what they’re talking about when they refer to a year long study as “longer term”.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2831643

>>40222207
>mfw mom doesn’t let me grow tits

>>40222194
>>40222205
NTA, the point isn't that that study is definitive and conclusive. The point is that the entire body of evidence is completely inconclusive due to intentionally poor methodologies across the board, and sometimes the outcomes as measured are worse.

I fail to understand why trans youth is the hill worth dying on

It's ceding what is a morally righteous case of "live and let live" that is much harder for conservashits to sling mud at and instead making it an issue of state intervention in the family, something that you will not win with this supreme court in a generation.

Trans kids will be the lever that alt right shitters will use to strip away all progress on lgbtq issues because as Sarah McBride pointed out, you are all allergic to making intelligent political decisions

>>40222235
>>40221956
>occasionally
>meaning that on other occasions it doesn’t
/:|

>>40222254
>I fail to understand why trans youth is the hill worth dying on
Because trannies are ok metaphorically lighting themselves on fire for a dice-roll chance to avoid being ogrehons. And also youngshits make them thirsty.

>>40222254
because i was trans youth and know my life would be significantly worse if i wasn't. am i supposed to roll over and cede my own starting line?

>>40222282
Your starting line is across the necks of every lgbtq person alive right now, so fucking yes

>>40222254
I don't want other people to suffer like I did

>>40222254
Because there’s no actual evidence that regret is high among transitioning adolescents and there is evidence that transitioning sooner leads to better mental health outcomes than transitioning later. If they can ban it for teenagers, they’ll ban it for everyone, which is explicitly the goal of those orchestrating this movement.

>>40222282
how do you knwo? Do you regularly contact yourself in parallel universes?

>>40222254
I don't get why people are so mean to tranny youth. Kids maybe I get but for post/early puberty teens I don't get it at all.
I won't die on the hill of trans sports but honestly I'd rather they ban transitioning after age 14 than ban it for 10-14 yo transitioners.

>>40222276
It's fictitious. No hon was ever going to pass. They were never feminine pretty little boys. Not one of them.

AGP hons always project themselves onto these little gay kids but it's all a big fat fucking lie. They were always weird creepy autistic spergs.

>>40222254
remove state intervention and build pathways for youth in abusive households to emancipate.

>>40222296
Do you think amplifying right wing nazis helps? This and "trans sports" are literally all they have. Anything else polls like dogshit in MAGAland. You are taking a winning movement and losing with it.

>>40222282
Great. Your anecdote has failed to manifest in 12 years' worth of data accumulated by a worldwide network of researchers who share you motivations and beliefs and are maximally positioned to have a successful research outcome. Yet they didn't.

>>40222299
> there is evidence that transitioning sooner leads to better mental health outcomes than transitioning later
Boomerhons are literally happier in every single study

>>40222308
*Does not apply to pooner top surgery. That should be banned until they are 2 years on T.
For the pooner paying attention I'm saying you should be able to get top at 12 so long as you started T at 10. You should not be able to chop off perfect tits but you should be able to chop off gross hairy fat sacs.

Basically there should be no butchery pics of tits getting chopped off. Not aesthetic and also not necerssary. Just be on T a bit before top, easy peasy. Should make the surgery easier too right as they'll shrink/deflate somewhat

>>40222254
I'm ugly and I hate myself!
I don't want your kids to be like me! But I also do want your kids to be like me!
So the state needs to have full rights to abduct children from their parents because it is just THAT critical to sterilize kids before they even understand what that means!
They are ruined by age 11 don't you see that?!
Im not crazy, this is science.

>>40222314
>AGP hons always project themselves onto these little gay kids but it's all a big fat fucking lie. They were always weird creepy autistic spergs.
Lies. I'm projecting myself onto the other autistic spergs. Honestly I hope the gay kids don't transition as a lot of them are just gay rather than trans.
The little AGPs tho, ofc

>>40221956
This quibbling over the strength of the evidence for the efficacy of HRT misses the point that the evidence supporting any alternative treatment is even flimsier. Conservatives only ever suggest talk therapy that we know after decades of trying doesn’t work and often makes matters worse, and the more schizo among them will either cite the n=1 anti-psychotic study or just deny that there is anything to be treated to be begin with.

>>40222333
>cis men are happier than dysphoric women
shocker

>>40222314
You cannot gaslight me, I was fairly feminine even up until around the time I turned 16. I have pictures of myself. Now I know I'll at least need FFS.

>>40222346
Boys and girls look different. That is a simple fact that blows the whole "we need to transition dem keeds" narrative out of the water.

You'd be a hon no matter when you got put on hormones so there's no point giving yourself fictitious regret.

>>40222351
>the evidence supporting any alternative treatment is even flimsier
This further misses the point that in medical ethics cases, when presented with two flimsy options, absent stark undeniable proof of imminent threat to life (which doesn't exist in this case), the answer is Do Nothing.
The answer is not to pick the least flimsy option.

>>40222314
Pay for my FFS, moron. Give me your credit card info right fucking now

>>40222359
No you weren't.

>>40222377
You don't have one piece of evidence of you looking even feminine as a child. Because you weren't, no AGP hon is.
YOU WERE NEVER GOING TO PASS ANYWAY.
Fucking deal with it and stop preying on kids.

>>40222378
you will never be loved, pol tourist. your bloodline ends with you

>>40222382
>puberty doesn't exist
retarrrrrdd

>>40222254
>and instead making it an issue of state intervention in the family
in the united states, it's conservatives doing that. they're not saying "this is a matter that should stay between children, their parents, and their doctors", they're saying families with trans kids aren't allowed to do this at all.

in some sense, they are relying about assumptions about future state intervention into families in order to justify that position, but i want to spell out explicitly here what they are refusing to:
their assumption is that, if any trans kids are allowed treatment, it will become obvious that denying trans kids treatment is abuse, and the state will intervene exactly as it would in other cases of abuse.
note that this differs from and in fact contradicts conservatives' stated reasoning. if conservatives believed treatment was ineffective and adults who transitioned as minors would be extremely likely to regret it, which they often claim to believe, they would not be worried about this outcome.

>>40222377
>Pay for my FFS, moron
Aside, I unironically think this will be the future compromise. Bans of medical childhood transition, with means-testing for government provided FFS for those who persist into adulthood.

>>40222401
Puberty is not the time when boys and girls start looking different, retard

>>40222366
Nah, Taftaj alone disproves this.
She made it and got to live the dream and others deserve to too

>>40222294
why don't transsexuals deserve equal access to medical treatment?
>>40222300
i know i was actively going through puberty when i stopped it by going on hrt. looking at my cis dad and brother, i know if i hadn't done so i wouldn't have much hope of passing. i do pass now.
>>40222326
well what did the data show exactly? wasn't it that quality of life and mental health improves but suicide rates stay similar? that's what i last heard and i could believe it, i also could be wrong.

>>40222333
Okay, then it shouldn’t be hard to find such a study. Here’s one that shows that starting HRT in your teens leads to lower suicidality than starting in adulthood, but I’ll grant you that the adult cohort in this study isn’t divided into further age groups.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0261039

>>40222406
He transitioned after puberty and has a feminine face. He would've passed okay no matter what.

>>40222372
The answer is actually to pick the treatment that is currently in use. Furthermore, plenty of medications already in use have a similar level of supporting evidence to that for HRT, because “weak” evidence (i.e. not double-blind randomized control trial) is still admissible evidence.

>>40222402
>it's conservatives doing that
Increasingly this qualifier isn't true
>this is a matter that should stay between children, their parents, and their doctors
When the doctors and their professional bodies are caught lying, and caught suppressing research that they ideologically disagree with, it is the role of the state to correct that exploitation. It's not so different than arguing against labor laws or minimum wage because those laws affect "matters that should stay between people and their employers."

>>40222402
Yes, it's not legitimate medical treatment at all.

>>40222422
Might've passed, would've been much much harder

>>40222422
He's always looked like a male nerd to me. Soft but not super feminine. I unironically find trans women with a bit sharper features more convincing.

Nice job on the tits though.

>>40222404
kill yourself

Early Childhood (0–5 years)
Very few physical differences between boys and girls.

Minor differences in genitalia and possibly activity preferences, but overall they look quite similar.

Middle Childhood (6–10 years)
Some small differences start to emerge:

Boys may begin to develop slightly broader shoulders.

Girls may carry a bit more body fat, especially around hips.

Still, most kids look fairly similar in body shape.

Puberty (Usually 8–13 for girls, 9–14 for boys)
This is when clear physical differences start to show:

Girls:
Breast development begins (usually first sign).

Hips widen.

Growth spurt occurs earlier than in boys.

Menstruation typically starts between 10–15.

Voice may deepen slightly, but not drastically.

Boys:
Voice deepens significantly.

Facial hair and body hair starts to appear.

Muscles develop more noticeably.

Shoulders become wider.

Testicular and penile growth occurs.

Growth spurt comes later but is often more dramatic.

Late Teens to Adulthood
Secondary sexual characteristics become fully developed.

Differences in height, body structure, facial features, and muscle mass become quite noticeable.

>>40222372
>the answer is Do Nothing
Which, you seem to forget, creates a myriad of buckbroken jobless bitchless leeches on society that would be happier when presented with euthanasia rather than anything else, which in lib mind is the perfect example of health. That's why the cass method is to basically stuff kids with lobotomy drugs until they are unable to do anything

>>40222457
That's false. You can easily tell male from female heads and faces after age 3-4.

>>40222427
>The answer is actually to pick the treatment that is currently in use
No, it isn't, especially when "the treatment that is currently in use" involves permanent or potentially-permanent alterations to minors and is predicated on lethality if treatment is disallowed.

Denying this demonstrates you aren't a serious person and also that you have little knowledge in this field besides tribally curating and exhuming opinions that bolster your preferences.
>>40222458
>Which, you seem to forget, creates a myriad of buckbroken jobless bitchless leeches on society
So? Get in line.
>that would be happier when presented with euthanasia rather than anything else
Definitionally not according to the evidence.

>>40222314
You're doing the tranny equivalent of zucker's kid attractiveness studies

>>40222472
you're going to die alone

>>40222378
Found an old image of myself from when I was 16. My brows weren't good but I think I would have been okay of I had started then. My face is more masculine now.
unsee cc/album#aVBpbtSkQce0

>>40222430
Your country has been cutting up infant's foreskins and forcefeeding future basketball players growth hormones for decades i dont think it cares about "muh legitemacy" at all

>>40222488
leave it, this subhuman basement dweller is just there to troll

>>40222481
Zucker was right though. Like how do you explain that study's findings? Don't just be like "muh study makes me feel uncomfortable", retard. Explain the findings.

There are morphological differences in femgay kids and they're feminized the face too.

Trannies wish they were those kids but they aren't.

>>40222428
>doctors and professional bodies caught lying
Like cass refusing to reveal the review internal protocols and documents?
Anon there is a reason why nearly every country past usa flipped a middle finger to bongian "research"

>>40222430
The posters of this board don't even actually believe it is really a medical condition, but they want to sell that to others. Hilarious.

>>40222402
Conservatives regard transitioning as de facto abuse. They will never look at a study or outcomes to make a decision regarding the validity of transitioning. To them, if there is ever a world in which the state can take your child to allow them to transition, that would be an apocalyptic scenario and be worthy of maximalist rhetoric to avoid at all costs, hence the vitriol you see daily specifically toward trans people.

If they didn't feel that this was a threat being leveled at their own children, much of their animus would dissolve and their could be further pushes for trans rights.

See Sarah McBride's interview with Ezra Klein.

>>40222491
>Your country has been cutting up infant's foreskins
>see its ok to let jews sterilize kids because its just like when jews tricked everyone into cutting up baby dicks
lol

>>40222497
I have objectively pretty feminine facial morphology, but a huge body thanks to not having access to gender affirming care.

>>40222481
Zucker was right about everything tho u just think it’s politically incorrect

>>40222428
so you, just as i said, are arguing in favor of state intervention in the family. why on this particular issue is it so important to you that the state overrides parents' right to make decisions in the best interests of their kids as they understand them?

>>40222523
> I have objectively pretty feminine facial morphology, but a huge body thanks to not having access to gender affirming care.

>>40222410
They do deserve equal access, please let the plurality of the American public know so they can hear the good news and stop pushing for maximalist Nazi shit that will affect all lgbtq people.

You are driving a bus into an industrial wood chipper and some of us in the back have some thoughts.

>>40222521
The fucking jews are trying to ban "muh sterilizing kids" to sell their medicine nigga
Look at who segm's founder is, and look at nearly every "professional" involved in anti-gac shit
If they cared about kids they wouldn't push the barrier up to 25, or even 30. They just want to sell something that is actually expensive and can't be sourced from china

>>40222515
You don't even need the Cass review to show that AMA, APA, AAP, USPATH, and WPATH have been lying.
They all adopted the "dead kid or trans kid" framing, clinically and in their press packets and politician packets. That was a lie. They had zero evidence for their claims and they knew it.
That's not even getting into USPATH heads suppressing research whose results were sound but unfavorable, or WPATH's federal discovery process revealing they pressured academics to produce favorable concurrences without evidence.

>>40222551
you realize jews are not a literal hivemind, especially on stuff that has nothing to do with jewish identity

>>40221856 (OP)
>>40221866
Consider the Utah Review:
https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/utah-lawmakers-own-study-found-gender-affirming-care-benefits-trans-youth-will-they-lift-the-treatment-ban
It had a surprising finding since it was commissioned by the Republican state legislature to justify their initial ban on healthcare and their restrictions placed on families and doctors who understand these situations better than politicians.
Quotes from the review:
"Notably, our searches yielded a larger number of primary studies than any of the systematic reviews that underwent data extraction".
"The conventional wisdom among non-experts has long been that there are limited data on the use of GAHT [gender-affirming hormone therapy] in pediatric patients with GD [gender dysphoria]. However, results from our exhaustive literature searches have led us to the opposite conclusion".
https://www.assignedmedia.org/breaking-news/plentiful-data-no-regret-utah-review

>>40222551
>The fucking jews are trying to ban "muh sterilizing kids" to sell their medicine nigga
the "muh sterilizing kids" is the medicine, nigger
the medicalization process for gac youth is a goldmine compared to plastic surgery fixups for later hons

>>40222548
>you are driving a bus into an industrial wood chipper and some of us in the back have some thoughts
im doing that by just transitioning underage? sorry, i guess i should've killed myself instead. what am i supposed to do? ive tried to be a reasonable tranny and ive heard people out and tried to calmly explain my case for years. i don't think im an extremist!

>>40221856 (OP)
>>40222581
>>40221870
Meanwhile, places where mainstream medical groups agree with the Utah review that concluded evidence for trans medicine is solid enough to continue its use include:
* Germany, Switzerland, and Austria / https://www.lemkininstitute.com/single-post/new-german-swiss-and-austrian-guidelines-recommend-trans-youth-care-slam-cass-review
* Canada / https://academic.oup.com/pch/advance-article/doi/10.1093/pch/pxae066/7816713
* France / https://www.assignedmedia.org/breaking-news/cass-report-vs-france-research
* Japan / https://whatthetrans.com/japans-transgender-treatment-guidelines-receive-update/
* United States, generally / https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1054139X24004397
* Australia and New Zealand / https://www.ranzcp.org/news-analysis/a-letter-from-members-regarding-the-cass-review-and-the-college-s-response
* Latin America, generally / https://www.researchgate.net/publication/384324303_Afirmacion_de_genero_y_evidencia_en_torno_al_suicidio_Aportes_para_el_debate_publico
* Ireland / https://gcn.ie/irish-academics-letter-criticising-cass-review/
* South Africa / https://www.spotlightnsp.co.za/2024/06/13/why-affirming-treatment-for-gender-questioning-youth-matters-in-sa/
* The Netherlands / https://www.amsterdamumc.org/nl/vandaag/een-reactie-van-amsterdam-umc-op-de-cass-review-over-transgenderzorg.htm
* Poland / https://journals.viamedica.pl/endokrynologia_polska/article/view/104289/81774
* New South Wales / https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-06/gender-affirming-care-still-safe-effective-and-reversible-review/104322428

>>40222581
It was written by the opposition to the bill

>>40222581
The difference is in scope, IIRC. The systemic reviews focus on PB's, HRT and SRS as a complete package. Utah is just focusing on hormone therapy.

>>40222517
>If they didn't feel that this was a threat being leveled at their own children, much of their animus would dissolve
so why are they not accepting the "parents' rights" stance, where trans care for minors is legal with parental approval?
my contention is that it's because they understand that it's not actually a stable equilibrium in the medium term, but want to retain absolute power over their children anyway. the only way for them to do that is to use the state to force everyone else to choose for their children the way that conservatives do for their own children.

>>40222602
No, it wasn't. You aren't going to subvert the facts. Anyone can look at what I posted and see you're brazenly lying. It's over, you lost the debate. Trans medicine is evidence-based. You are simply repeating lies on purpose because you don't like the facts of the situation.

>>40222254
>why do people who think the child molesting thieves in government are a legitimate authority want the state to be able to override parents?

Why is the question "does hormones improve quality of life" and not "how to make sure we're assessing gender dysphoria correctly"
>>40222612
Make sense, puberty blockers were an awful compromise with people who were against hrt

>>40222566
Why are you brazenly lying right now? Your source for this is the homophobic New York Times that has had a vendetta against gay people for decades. They lied. You're lying. Why are you a liar?

>>40222528
>why do you care
>why this issue in particular
It's not just this issue in particular, I favor the state checking private interests whenever there is a harmful, exploitative or malicious power imbalance that affects life or forever quality of life. See minimum wage, see safety standards on job sites, see literally anything else. The professional bodies have proven they can't self police, and now they have to pay the cost.

>>40222479
None of those things are reasons for the state to interfere with the medical world and make the treatment illegal. Saying that it’s bad because it “alters” minors who are statically going to be fine with those “alterations” ~99% of the time is incredibly disingenuous. I also notice that you conveniently ignored the point that a lot of medical treatments currently in use have a similar level of rigor in the evidence supporting their efficacy.

>>40222634
>Why are you brazenly lying right now?
Where's the lie?
Is a thing a lie merely because it makes you uncomfortable and mad and afraid?
You're not going to be able to just shout "don't believe the evidence of your eyes and ears" on this one.

>>40222657
>Saying that it’s bad because it “alters” minors who are statically going to be fine with those “alterations” ~99% of the time is incredibly disingenuous
most people who got lobotomies were okay with them afterwards as well
that's an incredibly poor standard for evaluating whether a treatment should be given

>>40222657
>None of those things are reasons for the state to interfere with the medical world and make the treatment illegal.
Yes, definitionally, they are, by longstanding legal precedent and by longstanding medical ethics standards.
This was well-covered in the majority opinion in the TN case, which I doubt you read because fascism or something.

>>40222428
>>40222661
I don't get that NYT article you're citing. By the time it was published, the study mentioned had already published "Psychosocial Functioning in Transgender Youth after 2 Years of Hormones", "Laboratory Changes During Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy in Transgender Adolescents", and 10 other papers; this January they published "Emotional Health of Transgender Youth 24 Months After Initiating Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy". The article also immediately mentions that she intends to publish the data and that this was being delayed by a then-recent funding cut. I agree with the POV CNN mentions in its opening: that such is just "the normal caution being taken by researchers to carefully present and interpret scientific data".
https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/25/health/puberty-blocking-medications-transgender-kids

In other words, the New York Times brazenly lied, as you are right now.

Here's a question: why has the New York Times NEVER, EVER, mentioned that this review: >>40222581 exists?
AT ALL?
They have NEVER reported that the Utah Review exists.
GLAAD knows why:
https://glaad.org/nyt-podcast-trans-healthcare/
>When there is news of legitimate research and reports that support medically necessary, mainstream care, and detail the benefits of it, the Times has failed to cover it. The Times has covered Utah’s legislative attacks against the transgender community in more than half a dozen stories, but did not cover the Utah legislature’s study finding that transgender health care benefits trans youth.

It's because they are a biased source. You're citing a refuted, biased source with a history of homophobia because you don't like what the real facts are. You refuse to acknowledge the Utah Review because it does not fit your anti-trans narrative. It's over, you lost the debate. Trans medicine is evidence-based as recognized by dozens of countries.

>>40222675
i don't think that a treatment that literally makes you retarded should be compared to anything else in that regard

>>40222590
I am agreeing with you
SSRIs/antipsychotics + surgeries are much more of a profit than hormones + PBs + SRS

>>40221866
Two more weeks till the queervolution!

>>40222629
The only people taking their kids in to assess gender dysphoria are gigaliberals in the first place so what does it matter is the assessment is "correct"

>>40222710
NYC is already ours, better flee before we eat you

>>40222694
but anon, becoming a woman is also making yourself retarded

the question isn't if they're okay with it afterward, it's whether the treatment was needed, and the answer is no. there have never been piles of dead kids with gender problems. they can grow up and choose what kinds of lives they want to live.

>>40222629
>Why is the question "does hormones improve quality of life" and not "how to make sure we're assessing gender dysphoria correctly"
I'll try to answer this honestly.

It's because the standard for GAC was set, very early on by the researchers and proponents themselves, as "let your kid transition or watch them die."
Why? Probably because it worked in the short term because they scared the shit out of parents. Also because it's the nuclear option on overriding the risks of GAC in medical ethics decisions.

But now the bill for that framing is coming due, and the reviews are all addressing that framing that the researchers themselves chose because that framing has dominated the conversation for a decade. There's probably room for nuance on HRT for 15 or 16 in future, but the stage was poisoned against it by people like Marci Bowers and Johanna Olson-Kennedy and WPATH generally.

>>40222722
You're unloved and worthless.

Why does the New York Times continue to cite the Cass Review as if it is the only review ever done on trans medicine, while refusing to acknowledge the Utah Review's existence? Why do they do that despite the UK's Conservative minister Kemi Badenoch openly acknowledging that the Cass Review was a politically motivated hack-job they jammed into existence using government force and based on preconceived conclusions?

>>40222479
>Definitionally not according to the evidence.
>/mmg/

>>40222613
Because they feel if they don't push they will be pushed. The perception they have is there is a large undercurrent of people that would find it acceptable for the state to take children that wanted to transition but were being prevented from doing so. As long as they think that is the case, they will fight all the way until gay marriage is repealed and beyond.

>>40222675
Very funny to say given that chemical lobotomy has become a popular idea for an alternative to HRT among conservatives. And before you spout some reversion to the mean BS, Zucker himself has stated that GD in people with a double digit age virtually never goes away.

>>40222722
>/mmg/

>>40222741
Why the fuck are you still lying? That wasn't a preconceived conclusion. It was arrived at by decades of trial-and-error in which doctors tried to FORCE trans people to be the gender identity they weren't, and it resulted in harm to trans people.

>See minimum wage, see safety standards on job sites, see literally anything else.
those policies impact huge swaths of the population, while trans people are about 1%, most of whom transition as adults. trans kids are a small fraction of a small fraction. why is this small population so salient to you that your comparisons are to policies that are critical to entire sectors of the economy and the entire working poor?

>>40222753
>Zucker himself has stated that GD in people with a double digit age virtually never goes away.
uhhhh

even if zucker said that, the mix of people presenting to gender clinics in 1990 which zucker might have based that statement on is a fucking lot different from 2025

>>40222722
It sounds like you never heard about the NHS hushing the suicides of a significant amount of the adolescents whom they denied GAC.

>>40222693
>hat such is just "the normal caution being taken by researchers to carefully present and interpret scientific data".
Which is also orthagonal to, "I paused the release of my findings because the political landscape would run with them and it would be bad for me."
Open journals exist, and people open-pre-publish their findings all the time.
Can you squint just right and find the perfect threaded needle that allows Olson-Kennedy to be in the right? Sure, I guess. Sorry, not going to give her the benefit of the doubt seeing as she already proved herself willing to lie to parents for a decade about suicide risks.

>>40222765
should have linked >>40222643

>>40222780
retarded hon conspiracy theory ahoy
the tavi have to publish all suicides of their patients, the numbers are extremely low, maybe 1 in a year

>>40222779
he was doing it in the 2000s/2010s, from what i remember

>>40222782
Who is lying except you, you sadistic little weasel?

Every time a chud posts bait I start two bair threads in /pol/

>>40222792
Bongian tranny clinics have decades long waitlists atp should we really trust them on anything

>>40222763
>no-to-low-confidence evidence
>years and years of research studies with zero control groups
>false dichotomy thinking, that the only options are forced cis existence (no social transition, no therapy) or medical transition and you must pick one
>what are

>>40222809
The guy in this thread isn't chuddykins. Trust me I recognize this guy's typing style. There's a lib journo amongst us...

>>40222799
anything before the trans explosion in 2014/2015 is not going to reflect reality today
teenage girls are fucking retards and very suggestible, the idea that some teen girls can't be convinced they're very special and need to cut their tits off doesn't pass the laugh test

>>40222722
>becoming a woman is also making yourself retarded
oh you're retarded
>it's whether the treatment was needed
if it were anything but trannies and there was a noticeable increase in quality of life that would be enough.
>they can grow up and choose what kinds of lives they want to live
why can't a 17 year old? i personally wouldn't have had the choice if i waited, i just never would've been able to pass.

>>40222779
Even if we suppose that there are a bunch of transtrenders going into clinics instead of just saying “you don’t need HRT to be trans” and getting updoots, at best that only suggests that we need to increase gatekeeping rather than banning it entirely. And again, the regret rates are way too low to justify a ban.

>>40222382
I passed as a teen, before I got conversion therapy'd

>>40222497
>There are morphological differences in femgay kids and they're feminized the face too.
Okay but it's also linked to digit ratio and my digit ratio is the second from left's despite being AGP

>>40222765
>those policies impact huge swaths of the population, while trans people are about 1%
Not really. There are specific binding OSHA standards for bucket truck harnesses or oil rig maintenance schedules that affect a fraction of people even compared to trannies, and yet they're enforced with legal bazookas.

>>40222823
Gee I can see how you'd believe that if you selectively ignored all the evidence I've posted contradicting that narrative you just typed up.

>>40222825
Employed people wouldn't have time to lie on anonymous imageboards.

>>40222834
>And again, the regret rates are way too low to justify a ban.
there's no evidence it's even a medical condition being treated in the first place
giving sex changes to children is the worst atrocity ever performed by medical science since the second world war and all these doctors should be in prison, to put it mildly

>>40222806
I accept your concession, enjoy continuing to lose ground on this issue.

>>40222847
Hahahahahah. If only you knew anon...
I'm not going to out who this guy is but I'll just say him knowing who Olson-Kennedy is, at all, is a big tell.

>>40222745
>The perception they have is there is a large undercurrent of people that would find it acceptable for the state to take children that wanted to transition but were being prevented from doing so.
but this perception makes no sense if they actually believe their own statements about the effectiveness of transgender care! if this stuff doesn't work and there's about to be a huge wave of "transed" kids mad as hell about what they went through, the whole edifice is about to collapse anyway.
their behavior only makes sense as optimizing for something rather than random flailing if you hypothesize that they know that no such wave is coming, they know that adolescent transitioners have very low regret rates, and they know that the future will correctly judge them as abusers unless they strangle the future in its cradle.

>>40222846
>all the evidence I've posted
All the evidnce you've posted has been rated no-to-low confidence as per the standards that existed before the dutch protocol craze, aka the standards everyone agreed to until they were told to throw out their discernment over empathy.

>>40222874
Why are you arguing for conversion therapy? The dutch protocol is the strictest form of GAC before you're doing legit conversion therapy. What the fuck "craze" are you talking about?

>>40222843
>There are specific binding OSHA standards for bucket truck harnesses or oil rig maintenance schedules that affect a fraction of people even compared to trannies, and yet they're enforced with legal bazookas.
right, but the relevant comparison is OSHA as a whole, not a random specific standard OSHA sets.

>>40222890
>Why are you arguing for conversion therapy?
>false dichotomy thinking again
>either you do what I want maximally or you support conversion therapy
You do know it's 2025, right? This sort of emotional blackmail doesn't work anymore.

>>40222860
I'm not disagreeing with you, I frankly find them and the situation at present disgusting.

I'll just say that the definitions being used in your view of the world and theirs are sufficiently different that dialogue even about the potential motivations is impossible.

I'm an advocate about not going down with a losing position when there are an overwhelming number of other positions available that are politically possible.

>>40222909
What is "emotional blackmail"? I stated a fact. Is this your way of trying to shame me because you felt bad at the facts of what you're arguing for?

>>40222902
>right, but the relevant comparison is OSHA as a whole, not a random specific standard OSHA sets.
Irrelevant. The relevant comparison is the body of medical ethics and laws protecting minors as a whole, and the specifics are these states banning GAC.

>>40222921
>I stated a fact
>anything that isn't fully legalized PBs, HRT and SRS is conversion therapy
Execpt you can still socially transition and receive affirming talk therapy while waiting until 18, which is not conversion therapy.
So your fact is not in fact a fact.

You're such a bad little propagandist.

>>40222858
There's a shit ton of chudcels who have nothing better to do. I cannot imagine a well adjusted person or some journo shitting up my board like this

>>40222849
Do mental health conditions not count as medical conditions? If not, what exactly would make GD not qualify as a mental health condition?

>>40222946
>socially transition and receive affirming talk therapy
Neither are effective and you know it

>>40221856 (OP)
Let the hon uprising begin! Mandatory daily T for the youngshits and forced outing of all boymoders

>>40222963
"Ineffective" is not conversion therapy, no matter how much you want it to be

>>40222946
That is conversion therapy for actual transsexuals experienced bodied sex-dysphorias.
Maybe it worked for your enby friend.

>>40222985
>look we pat a suffering person on the head instead of giving them medication! we're definitely not evil haha
You will die.

>>40222999
>You will die.
Can you signal your helplessness and impotence harder?

>>40222950
>cannot imagine a well adjusted person or some journo shitting up my board like this
Faulty assumptions...

>>40222946
>affirming talk therapy
lmfao
>"hey alice don't worry about the fact you're growing hair on your knuckles for the first time, you're slaying in that dress girl!"

>>40222926
>The relevant comparison is the body of medical ethics and laws protecting minors as a whole, and the specifics are these states banning GAC.
what are some other examples of treatments specifically singled out for prohibition to minors, even with parental approval?

>>40223019
Once the pendulum swings back you're so cooked

Okay so right the issue isn't actually youngshit or not or w/e.
It's little girls being ruined by T because they were briefly stupid in highschool and becoming perma hons. That is what the cis woman author is going on about.
To that end, reasonable compromise:
>Ban T for those under 18
>AFABs can still use puberty blockers
>T is strong enough that if a blocked 18 year old (tall cause blockers) takes it they'll still turn out fine. And if they depoon they won't be too fucked cause blockers

Meanwhile noone gives a fuck about youngshit mtfs because they never detroon. They're not the issue. The youngshit tranny problem is a pooner problem. And I say if we throw them under the bus they won't get hit that hard and also we'll give them a helment and stuff so they don't get hurt (i.e. blockers).
Course the real issue is that taking such a reasonable compromise has HORRIFIC optics because all normie lefties will hate you and all righties will despise you. It is however interesting that the centrist lib atlantic and nyt writers never have this idea cross their mind and go straight to the far right ban youngshit position. Why?

>>40223036
Psych meds are the case that comes to mind first. Benzos and antipsychotics are black-box label for minors and are widely restricted for off-label use.

>>40223060
>It is however interesting that the centrist lib atlantic and nyt writers never have this idea cross their mind and go straight to the far right ban youngshit position. Why?
Because they're backed by billionaires who profit off dividing and confusing the population?

>>40223059
>you don't understand I'm on the right side of history I have to win in the end just like my books and movies
Wew

>>40222958
what exactly is that mental health problem?

>>40223072
And are they banned by the government?

>40223082
These "people" died in a horrible fashion, and so will you

>>40222946
>affirming talk therapy
Aka something that doesnt work in any nigga with an iq past 90?

>>40223060
>It is however interesting that the centrist lib atlantic and nyt writers never have this idea cross their mind and go straight to the far right ban youngshit position. Why?
mainstream liberalism is committed to a crude version of social constructionism with regard to sex, the existence of effective medical transition is a threat to that position
there are currents on the left and in feminism that don't fall into this trap (and obviously the far right doesn't), but centrist liberalism has a very hard time with it

>>40223112
I just want to defuse your back and forth a little by pointing out the Nazis going through those documents in this photo placed the big boobie photos on top of the pile on purpose to emphasize how straight they are and they didn't know they were photos of trans women on hormones.

>>40223098
No, becuase the standards bodies and their practitioners all follow the black-box restrictions. We don't have a multi-year raging public and scientific debate about giving benzos to 13 year olds.
But if they decided to go off-label and abandon the evidence standard (like they are doing for GAC), states are within their legal rights to pass bans.

>>40222322
>Hey throw everyone under the bus and maybe your enemies will spare you!
When has this ever worked for anyone?

>>40223084

>>40223126
>weimar trans women faced less gatekeeping than modern americans
grim

>40223112
>if you disagree with me even slightly on this medical topic you're a literal nazi
This is working out so well for you lol. Never change.

>>40221856 (OP)
Anon
The writer is a "centrist" (""likes"" trannies if they lick its boots) bongian what did you expect?

>>40223148
>their practitioners all follow the black-box restrictions
This isn't true. But I think SSRIs specifically are a better example as well, isn't the risk generally thought to be similar and yet, widely prescribed.

>>40223156
none of those things are legitimate mental health problems and most of them are also incredibly sexist
if a specific desired treatment didn't exist they also wouldn't exist

>40223167
Get the fuck out of my board

>>40223161
Dawg, you have no idea. Some of these older trans women like Bambi talk about how they literally got estrogen over the counter. It was the horsepiss pills though I believe, not sure but I think it was that premarin bullshit they used to prescribe and didn't work as well. The ones in those photos were probably genetic luckshits.

good

>>40223171
>This isn't true
To the extent that it isn't true, it's again not a raging public debate, and no standards body AFAIK is fomenting to approve benzos or the specific SSRI for minors outside of the evidence envelope.

>>40223175
They aren’t by themselves, but the clinically significant distress and/or impairment they cause is a legitimate mental health problem.

>>40221856 (OP)
>look the writer up
>bong
Why is it always them?

>>40223060
>Meanwhile noone gives a fuck about youngshit mtfs
Well nobody cares what happens to male children in general
>centrist lib atlantic and nyt writers never have this idea cross their mind and go straight to the far right ban youngshit position. Why?
Why don't they consider a solution that spares males? You said it yourself, nobody is thinking about the males

>>40223197
They aren't agitating for it because it's not really contested, doctors just do it anyway.

>40223185
Nah

>>40223215
I think you're conflating SSRIs generally with the specific SSRIs and anti-psychotics that are black-labeled for minors. But I could be wrong.

>>40223149
I'm repackaging Sarah McBrides words when I tell you that you are not helping. If it's a weak issue being voiced weakly, the voices or the issue need to go. Otherwise there are consequences.

>>40223203
no, it isn't
it's like saying you've got distress over not having a million dollars or not having a nose job
you can't just say "i'm unhappy because of X" is a mental illness because literally anything can be a mental illness
none of those things you listed are even mental health problems in the first place
trannies made up a totally fictitious mental health disorder so they could get insurance to pay for their fake boobs and unconvincing vaginas and that's all there is to it

>>40223232
Doesn't black-labeled just mean a warning is on the box? Doctors can just override it if they like right?

>>40223234
You have to be trolling, why the hell would CLINICALLY SIGNIFICANT distress not be a mental health issue?

40223217
Mental illness

>>40223278
why the hell would it be?
lots of things cause distress in this life

>>40223311
There are two big, capitalized words there, try reading that post again.

>>40223116
So you're saying it's a thing with feminism and they can't admit men and women are different at all biologically?
Then why ban youngshits? Because they don't think hrt does anything?

>>40223320
>i, a clinician, have defined distress over not having a million dollars as a mental health condition
>therefore the patient's distress over not having a million dollars is clinically significant
>therefore, i will prescribe them one million dollars as a treatment for this super real mental health condition i just made up

>>40223204
I think they like to pretend they’re better than Americans by eshewing the culture war trappings, hence why they have to dress their version of it in in faux-progressive terms.

>>40223346
Careful or you will disturb the psychiatry supporters

>>40223346
So it’s those dirty clinicians conspiring to invent a medical condition whose treatment produces less money than knee-replacement surgery, I see now. Maybe we should tackle Big Knee next.

>>40223325
>So you're saying it's a thing with feminism and they can't admit men and women are different at all biologically?
yes, though i wouldn't call it a "thing with feminism" because people who explicitly call themselves feminists these days tend to be less likely to make this error than liberals in general. there are strains of feminism that engage explicitly with biological difference and its role in the oppression of women. "if nature is unjust, change nature" and all that.
>Then why ban youngshits? Because they don't think hrt does anything?
because when they see that trans people have strong innate senses of what we are that are present from an early age and emerge even counter to the way society and our families attempt to socialize us, it causes an instinctive mental flinch away from everything that implies that's in conflict with the belief that men and women are basically the same above the neck.

>>40223251
Black labels are basically a signal to practitioners that going off label is grounds for major malpractice due to death or grievous harm caused by the drug

>>40223369
Good point, we should just ban psychiatry altogether. Why haven’t the lawmakers done this yet?

>>40223407
Having the power to lock people up for no reason can be very politically useful.

>>40223386
yeah, it is, that's correct
clinicians had patients who wanted sex changes and they needed a way to bill for it so they invented GD

>>40222634
it's not a lie that strangio admitted that there's no evidence of "dead kids or transition" which was pretty much the sole argument justifying child transition.

>>40223441
But there is evidence. Example: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-024-01979-5.epdf

>>40223441
strangio is a retard who doesn't know shit about anything and has probably been net negative for trans people.

>>40223432
Those same clinicians got paid to do the surgeries then?

>>40223400
I asked the ccp LLM to expand on my point and respond to you and it said:
>The tension you describe arises from a false dichotomy: either biology is destiny (conservative view) or biology is irrelevant (radical constructionism).
>Medical transition exposes a third path: biology is malleable but not infinitely so. Testosterone's irreversibility and estrogen's partial reversibility are material realities – but they don't dictate social roles.
>Centrist liberals struggle here because they conflate admitting biological constraints with endorsing biological determinism. Trans people, caught in this crossfire, become unwilling symbols for both sides: proof of biology's power to conservatives, proof of its irrelevance to progressives.
>Resolving this requires abandoning ideological purity and centering evidence-based, individualized care

I think it's cooking

>>40223454
strangio is a retard. marci bowers is a retard. There is a ton of evidence totally trust me bro except somehow every single time a pro trans advocate has had to argue in court in front of people who are read up on the subject they couldn't find this evidence, somehow this evidence only exists in echo chambers online where laymen can make whatever claims they want unchallenged.

>>40222825
Isn't it just gincel seething that we're stealing his twinks or whatever again?

>>40223521
I haven’t seen him call transitioning conversion therapy for gays, so it doesn’t seem like it. Maybe he’s changed his angle to be less recognizable though.

>>40221856 (OP)
>how the left ended up disbelieving the science
oh no! not the heckin soience!

why is it always british feminists who look like trannies?
such a strange coincidence

you could set it at a post pubescent but still youngshit-ish age at like 16, its pretty hard to tell with actual kids but i feel like once your a teenager its more obvious

>>40223564
huhh

>>40222919
Your position is untenable when those same people will use the existence of hons (created by late transitioning,which they are pushing, some to as late as 26) to justify a ban to this shit for adults too, and otherwise make your life unlivable (bathroom bans etc.) They don't care about adults crossdressing in a bedroom, they care about you existing in public or having access to medical care, though. The people you are talking about do not want anything to exist outside of their moral set (evangelical christianity) and will always push in that direction universally. You can't appease them, only cede ground slowly or fight back.

>>40223584
>hons (created by late transitioning
there is zero evidence for this claim
the average teenage boy would be a hon if trooned out, deal with it

>>40222693
the utah review was basically just a google search and summary of abstracts boiled down to "transition good or bad", it didn't actually evaluate the studies. There's a reason serious professionals don't use these internet arguments in court.

>>40223521
No, Gincel is recognizable from different markers. He always posts images with iPhone filenames, for instance >>40221956 , >>40222243 and >>40222333 are Gincel.

>>40223602
are you saying government workers in red states half-ass their work? that’s pretty bigoted

>>40223605 (me)
Btw it's noteworthy that the reason he always posts with iPhone filenames is that Gincel is constantly ban-evading using a cloud service that only exists on iPhone devices.

>>40223583
>>40223564
oh and of course she already has a page of information about her anti-trans positions
many such cases
https://www.transgendermap.com/issues/topics/media/helen-lewis/

>>40223602
>review was basically just a google search and summary of abstracts
What do you think a review of medical literature is? That's the basics of what a scientific review is. Also you've massively oversimplified that particular review, it's over 1,000 pages long and it's obvious you have never opened it.

>>40223082
unironically yes
Fascism is antithetical to the human spirit. Americans fascists had to go post racial to get to where they are. Fascists don’t even like fascists, Israel is the best example of a powerful and influential ethnostate and the average fascist hates them so viciously to the point of paranoia. Meanwhile I have yet to see an ideological group be so prolific and pragmatic in misinformation and propaganda than the American fascist to the point of being the very description of who they hate. I’ll never forget the first time seeing a >mfw we were the Jews all along post and being amazed at how nobody could be fazed even a little about the irony. Lost to a zealotry believing you’re fighting fire with fire.
Your whole ideology is self defeating to such an extent it’s like catnip for artists. How could you not write about some of the most dangerously misguided retards throughout history. If anything it’s an obligation so hopefully you can teach children to not be retarded like you when they grow up

>>40223233
You can repackage someone wrong's opinions all you like, why do you think I have some special love for politicians that I place more value on their words than yours? If anything, her being a politician makes me more suspicious of her.
>It's a weak issue
It's a strong important one if you actually had to grow up like this, and among the conservative people you crow on about. I know them better than you do, and I know myself better than you do. You think it's a weak issue because you never had to live through it, and because you think you can appease these people. You cannot.

>>40223647
1000 page review yet not a single paper showing that youth transition reduces suicide completions. Make it a 10k review next time, you can't magically get it from thin air.

>>40223702
I showed you that paper here: >>40223453

>>40223702
does it increase suicide tho? Like maybe it actually just doesn't matter and we are making something out of nothing

>>40223715
laughably shitty paper not even relevant to the subject. It talks about "anti trans laws" and groups together nonsensical laws, doesn't even boil anything down to youth transition, and says suicide attempts not completions.

>>40223386
He's one of those idiots who think you can just meme yourself out of an anxiety disorder, he has never known any kind of stress in his life.

>>40223735
Do you reckon that reducing attempts would reduce completions?...

>>40223774
Not necessarily. If it did you'd be able to prove it by having evidence of y'know...completions, like for all other suicide statistics?

just don't regulate shit, stop banning all the cool guns, allow youth transition, let cars be cool again

the problem is regulation and government, sell dynamite and estradiol in hardware stores again idgaf

Paywall. Can someone post the article?

>>40223795
>like for all other suicide statistics?
Give one example

>>40223817
oh and amphetamine pills, sometimes you just need a pick-me-up and having to tell a doctor you have ADHD is just annoying

>>40223827
All other suicide rates are given in completed suicides. Only to justify youth transition do we have to accept special pleading.

>>40223817
Finally someone sensible.
Listen to all these kids try to present their book report to daddy trying to convince what daddy should allow

>>40223854
>All other suicide rates are given in completed suicides.
Any evidence?

>>40223861
I always get greatful to be in America when I find some random shit that seems like it would be illegal but isn't. These laws are almost always made by people who are afraid of <thing> to harass the people who actually understand <thing>. We banned dynamite in hardware stores and you can't buy machine guns anymore, but hey we still got school shootings and 9/11 so hows all that pussy shit working out for you?

>>40223648
>anything i dont like is fascism
>a childs guide to persuading normies to let you cut off kids breasts

>>40223994
where in the constitution does it say its the governments job to stop you from ripping your body parts off?

>>40223689
I grew up in a far more authoritarian place under far more authoritarian conditions than the overwhelming majority of people here.

The issue isn't "weak" in the sense that it isn't morally righteous. It's "weak" in the sense that it changes a movement based on expanding the rights of a repressed minority into a knife pointed at the concept of family.

There is no greater ladder for authoritarians to use than an issue that does this. Proceeding on this path makes death far more efficiently than the alternative, and it's you that lacks the experience in seeing this. I have. Recalibrate yourself and stop acting as an anchor, get outside and actually give a shit about others for a change.

>>40223994
the discussion is about HRT for minors. i think most agree there is no reason to do surgeries on people under 18

the reason minors getting HRT is a thing to debate in the first place is that the later you wait, the less likely you are to look or sound like the sex you desire to be

the suicide stuff seems like a red herring. sure, don't state things without evidence, but there is both evidence and common sense backing the idea that someone who in retrospect would have wanted to start HRT earlier will very likely live a much worse and more depressed life

i'm not trans but the fact that so many people seem to ignore or deny that point is confusing, since it seems it should be obvious to anyone. some people are completely dodging the central issue and reducing it to how they would evaluate alzheimer drug treatment outcomes or something

>>40224131
>someone who in retrospect would have wanted to start HRT earlier will very likely live a much worse and more depressed life
there's no common sense there at all
people are very adaptable

>>40224035
The 10th amendment

>>40224126
>There is no greater ladder for authoritarians to use than an issue that does this
you're right about this
a lot of people find giving kids sex changes such an abomination that they'd vote for literally anyone who promised to end it at any personal cost to themselves

>>40224157
>The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people
so you think we should leave it up to the states? Sounds better, why is it a national debate then, phone up your governer!

>>40224131
>i think most agree there is no reason to do surgeries on people under 18
You think wrong.
>the suicide stuff seems like a red herring
It's not a red herring when the prime mover given to parents for gac was "let it happen or your kid dies"
>many people seem to ignore or deny that point
Improved emotional outlook is both low-confidence just like the suicide data and also generally insufficient for allowing permanent-change treatment for minors. This is self-demonstrating, because the researchers themselves chose to lead with suicide, not improved quality of life.

>>40224210
>Sounds better, why is it a national debate then, phone up your governer!
25 states have done precisely this, and the ACLU and LGBT orgs shit their pants and took it to the supreme court and lost.

>>40224228
Because regulating it is still retarded, its just retarded on a local level. If you lived in california you would know how shitty state governments can be.

>>40224126
>a knife pointed at the concept of family.
Yes anon, in the same way that having your kid vaccinated for measles, or treated for cancer, or sewn shut when some shrapnel tears through an artery. We may not consider our issues to be AS serious here, but this all shares the same theme, that of "Kids receiving important medical treatment when the parent declines." On whichever side you're, whether you think the parents absolutely should have primacy in all cases, or whether they never should, or some middle ground (like using social shame/lack of access to certain parts of society, like vaccines and schools for example,) that is what this is ultimately about. It's important to recognize it in those terms, or you end up downplaying ALL mental health problems a child might suffer as not being important. What you are telling us to do is like giving up on vaccines because it pisses some retards off. Again, you have to fight against these people, or else they will always drag things back in the direction of their moral set; they're never actually angling for a compromise, they're simply taking smaller steps towards your destruction. You can advise taking things more slowly or working in a piecemeal fashion rather than the maximalist "all or nothing all at once" approach, but outright giving up is a poison apple.
>Get outside and care about others
Oh hey there's a redneck fucking with his shitty truck across the street. What was this supposed to teach me?

>>40224155
Spoken like someone who isn't a repper or anyone else qualified to personally report on that experience.

>>40224241
>Because regulating it is still retarded
The majority in those states disagrees, and the (lack of) supporting evidence compels state protection in the face of malicious standards bodies.

Still not gonna get rid of environmental xenoestrogens that lead to these trans conditions.

>>40224287
Ok, but also why NOT? It's not like gender affirming care makes your skin fall off, its just people wanting to ban shit they don't understand like all the other stupid shit that gets banned.

>>40224287
>malicious
lmao

>>40224304
Because it's not what Jebus wants.

>>40222210
Homosexuality isn't a fetish?

>>40224304
>Ok, but also why NOT? It's not like gender affirming care makes your skin fall off
Oh nothing really, just likely-to-guaranteed infertility, permanent loss of secondary sex organs, or permanent voice changes. All for minors, depending on sex and how far down the gac pipeline you travel.
>people wanting to ban shit they don't understand
Your response makes me think you don't understand what you claim to support or even your situation generally.

>>40224306
>lies to parents for years and years
>knowingly
>doubles down when called on it publicly in the most consequential forum in the country
>not malicious

>>40224304
seriously, when we decided "just wait and see" to see if nuclear power was dangerous we ended up with the fucking NRC, if we made that same mistake with fracking America would still be a petroleum importer. They diden't allow homos to do their thing because they were afraid of new shit.

Just stop hiding behind the government like a pussy when new shit happens.

>>40224352
You have literally been disproven about this claim multiple times this very thread, repeating it doesn't help you.

>>40223605
The obsession with gay fertility is 100% gincel though, he has a weird fetish for gay couples impregnating women.

>>40224247
I'll apologize for my last line of my last post, that was unnecessary and rude on my part.

I just find it frustrating when a movement jeopardizes it's existence by taking futile battles again and again. It's needless suffering and it gives ammunition to nefarious actors that don't deserve it.

I'll just leave by saying that giving up isn't the poison apple. The issue itself is a landmine and needs to be treated as such - avoided for the time being and dealt with much, much later.

>>40224334
fags don't reproduce anyways, thats kind of our whole thing?

>>40221943
>lied to parents about suicide risks

statements like this is are why TCD is mandatory

>>40224373
>You have literally been disproven about this claim multiple times this very thread
That the standards bodies and their practitioners were telling parents their kid would die without transition for years? Lol, no, that's not disproven. That's the state of the record.

>>40224391
>Update
Lots of gay men and women do surrogacy or sperm donation, respectively, which is what kids who bail out of being trans overwhelmingly grow up as.

>>40221856 (OP)
any other youngshits lurking it's kinda weird watching everyone itt debating whether or not we should've had the right to be happy in our bodies while our lived experience is ignored

>>40224432
Yeah well i guess your SOL if you bail out of being trans. Why is it the governments job to preserve my fertility? "Oh no the Department of Gender Affirming Care has a new 300 million dollar study to protect fertility in potential trans youth!"

>>40223864
one example
https://data.who.int/indicators/i/F08B4FD/16BBF41

>>40224464
>Yeah well i guess your SOL if you bail out of being trans. Why is it the governments job to preserve my fertility?
You'd have to take it up with the majority in those states for why. They think that it is and are legally entitled to make it so.
Funnily enough, since you're going the libertarian route, I think the real death knell for childhood transition isn't going to be bans. It's going to be 8-figure lawsuits from FtMtF's.

>>40224387
Well my point is that 'giving up' is, as I perceive it, a permanent cessation of effort. If you just move something down the road, you're not 'giving it up,' you're prioritizing. I'm not innately against doing that, I understand taking your time , being careful, and making strategic decisions about which issue to fight for when. It's simply that I do think this is an important issue to fight for at some point, because I don't believe parents should get carte blanche to abuse their kids simply because they had them. These people who want us dead can be destroyed, they can be marginalized such that their opinions and thoughts have no significance in the public sphere, as has happened to numerous value sets throughout history. We have to understand though that their goal is our destruction and the regression of society to what their pastor tells them every Sunday, though, and take 'compromises' in the same way they do; a smaller push towards the ultimate goal, not the goal itself.

>>40224494
Why would it be a lawsuit? You know what you signed up for.

>>40224464
Retarded take. It actually is the state provided healthcare's job to preserve your fertility. It's called reproductive healthcare.

>>40224463
>while our lived experience is ignored
You were sold a generational lie that your lived experience was sufficient for changing high-stakes public policy, rather than careful statistically confident evidence over years.
You can be mad at the reality, or you can ask the ones who told you a fairytale why the lied.

>>40224432
hot take but maybe we shouldn't make policies that rely on having to buy children from poor 3rd world women.

>>40224529
>You know what you signed up for.
The core premise, now with supporting argument from the federal courts, is that minors are likely unable to provide informed consent for these procedures.
If you want a preview, the childrens' clinics in CA and a few other states that do medical transition for minors are all closing up shop just as a few high profile cases are approaching their first court dates.

>>40224530
If you make a choice to fuck yourself up its not really anyone else's problem at that point? I am dissapointed so many states have chosen to regulate it, but its better than leaving it up to the feds imo.

>>40224463
I'm an oldshit, nobody cares about our lived experience

>>40224463
It's because the core of it is that people think 1) You aren't a human, your parents own you. Some think this is the case even into adulthood, an extreme case of filial piety. 2) They think your gender identity isn't real, that you can only exist if someone else forced it on you. In their view, everyone innately thinks and feels like they do until some outside evil makes them not a 'based tradcon Christian' or the like. 3) They have a religious/ideology-as-religion that categorically rejects the validity of anything you're saying. Once again, they don't see you as a human, but instead of a parents' possession, you're an 'enemy entity' and so nothing you say that contradicts the dogma will be accepted.

>>40224556
Well yeah people want money. America is known to be overly litigious, if you are using lawsuits as evidence you in the right I think you should find better evidence.

>>40224533
Hey do you still think it should be legal to kill people on purpose in the course of a medical study like you've advocated in the past?

>>40224588
Lawsuits as evidence?
I'm not suggesting lawsuits are evidence of medical right or wrong, we know the evidence doesn't exist right now.
I'm just telling you what's likely to happen, that lawsuits will make medicalization for minors too financially risky and costly to continue, even if there weren't bans.

>>40224387
>The issue itself is a landmine and needs to be treated as such - avoided for the time being and dealt with much, much later.
i understand this viewpoint, it makes a lot of sense at first glance. i think the thing this kind of view neglects, but which your chosen metaphor happens to highlight, is that landmines are placed by an adversary to control your movement. they are not randomly distributed, they are optimized to prevent you from going where you need to go.

>>40224575
Sorry I know shit if hard for y'all too I wanted to see if there were any other early transitioners here that can relate

The problem is that everyone cannot help but see the body of a pre-HRT teenager as being perfectly functional and healthy
Until we realise the horror that is the physical world and all the mistakes that lead us to this we will never move forward, there is no healthy and functional body

>>40224617
And that's how great things come to an end.

Someone chopped her nuts off on here yesterday, just let people do their thing.

>>40224593
Denying care in a randomized trial via a control group isn't killing people, but yeah sure. The last time you cried about this I think I mentioned ebola vaccine trials within the last few years, where we actively killed some participants.

>>40224263
historically people did just fine
nobody has ever dropped dead from not cutting their dick off
this is cosmetic. fucking. surgery. that's all.
wannabe trannies getting the sad over not having it is not a mental health problem.

>>40224660
Its also not surgery, its fucking hormone pills. Everyone knows you can wait on the surgeries those work just as well at any age

>>40224576
children are not fully persons
that's why they are children, they cannot consent to adult things or understand adult consequences, hence, lack of criminal responsibility, and we don't let them make decisions they aren't equipped to understand
children obviously cannot give informed consent to sex changes

>>40224644
Just wanted to make sure you were still a psychopath, anon.

>>40224660
Yeah dude in history everyone followed Jebus so why bother questioning or moving beyond those archaic standards? Just praise Jebus and never advance psychiatric care, if someone acts weird they have demons and we just need to beat them until they stop.

>>40224683
they're still cosmetic hormones and it's the same principle, particularly with T which is as permanent as surgery for foids
fucking with kids development stops them from realizing they're just gay

>>40224687
Yep, the same grade of psychopath as all the clinical trial admins who test treatments with lethal risk through adult consent.

>>40224685
>they cannot consent to adult things or understand adult consequences
The fact that they can be held criminally responsible from the age of 10 shows that the conversation is a bit more nuanced than that?

>>40224576
I'm against children as property of their parents, which is why I'm sceptical of parents being allowed to "consent" on behalf of their children to undergo elective castration.

>>40224695
if cutting kids dicks off is psychiatric care it isn't based on any evidence or even meaningful definitions so why would you want to advance it?

>>40224697
I realized I was just gay, then later I was like "FUCK guess I might not be". You probably are not even gay, how can you tell what this fag shit is supposed to feel like?

>>40224685
Exactly anon, so if a child gets cancer the parents have the right to decide they'll die. They're just objects after all.

>>40221856 (OP)
>The future is hons.
Only if we're lazy.

>>40222254
if self determination of your body is still not the hill to die on I wonder what hill it will be

>>40224729
false dichotomy
>children are either mentally fully developed adults or objects
parents don't actually have the right to deny children life-saving care.

>>40224717
You keep going back to the dick thing because you know it's the most lurid. You are also aware that nobody is talking about surgeries, yet you go back to it every time. This means you are dishonest and not looking for a reasoned discussion.

>>40224753
You didn't deny that you think the parents have the right to deny them medical care, anon.

>>40224697
>They're coming to steal my twinks!

>>40224710
yes, children can realize that hurting people is wrong at an early age
they can't consent to sex until much later, so it is ridiculous to claim they could possibly consent to "change sex".
>>40224729
not having full personhood doesn't mean you have no rights

>>40224759
tranny pilpul, kids are getting surgeries and you pretend it's not happening, but it's the same for any kind of "medical intervention"

>>40224713
Yet if a medical professional determines that they have GD, you are for the parents denying them medical care on the basis of familial primacy. As if they were an object. Your ideology is inconsistent because it's based on feelings, rather than any real logic.

>>40224782
You using the word 'pilpul' outs you as someone from /pol/ and not an actual 'concerned fag', you know.

>>40224772
trannies determination to die on the hill of doing heinous medical shit to kids will get you a far right authoritarian government faster than anything i can think of
for those saying you've got one already - you really don't, yet, but i hope you see one soon

>>40224463
lol ig the answer was no

>>40224820
You realize they'd shoot societal drains like unemployed single men who spend all day screaming about trannies on the internet too, right?

>>40224793
>Yet if a medical professional determines that they have GD
they don't, it's elective under the affirm only model. You'd have a point if doctors could say "no you don't have GD and this is why" but you think they shouldn't be allowed.

Also the problem isn't the diagnosis per se but rather the treatment(lacking in evidence). Doctors can't go rogue and do whatever they want as long as they can get a signature, that's not evidence based care anymore.

>>40224835
you realize that your insane minority leading the democrats around by the nose is the actual reason kamala harris lost to trump, right?

>>40224869
kamala harris lost to trump because apparently being a nigger woman is more unelectable than being a senile retard

>>40224847
I'm a transmedicalist after a fashion, I don't care about any argument related to bitching about self-ID and I'd appreciate it if you didn't use people who advocate for such as a crutch in any discussion you are having with me.
>Lacking in evidence
Plenty of evidence exists, it just doesn't pass your (lay) rigor, because as you have pointed out in the past, the only studies that would be valid for you are ones that involve denying people medical care by force throughout their teenage years and early adulthood. Which is, of course, generally not considered reasonable by people other than you.

>>40224880
she lost because she couldn't disavow trannies and because the R's finally attacked the D's over the issue
the "they/them" ad had the biggest swing of any ad Trump aired

>>40224869
Kamala Harris was a charisma blackhole who had no political identity except to repeat Biden's platform. This is a problem, because Biden's platform was perceived to be an economic failure and to be discriminatory towards the ethnic majority of voters. Also, ever since the rise of television, personal charisma has been the primary deciding factor on who wins an election. If you don't have it, you're not going to win.

>>40224899
Anon if you think it was trannies more than the economy or even immigration that lost that bitch the election, you are delusional and spend too much time on the internet reading anti-trans shit. This isn't the UK.

>>40224888
>it just doesn't pass your (lay) rigor
wtf are you on about? Your treatment doesn't pass any professional rigor since it's banned everywhere except in those US states that practice affirm only. You yourself is explaining why you don't have scientific evidence, which is an admission you don't have any(duuh, because why else would you need to explain it) and that explanation is completely bunk anyway(obviously trials are done all the time in which someone is denied care).

Obviously you're begging the question(youth transition is life saving care, it's not ethical to deny someone life saving care, therefore we can't study it) even though everyone can see kids aren't/weren't dropping dead before the modern advent of youth transition.

>>40224938
>>40224920
yet the republicans decided to attack her on trans issues, they spent 200 million dollars on it
so yeah, trannies cost the democrats the election

>>40221856 (OP)
Nah all the "center right" papers have been anti trans since the coup attempt
New York Times, Atlantic, Economist, Newsweek ect
Center left and center right have united around Trans Bad since its easier to deal with than the fact that we no longer have a republic

>>40224951
Pretending that the US, and red states at that, is the only country in the world, putting words in my mouth, intentionally ignorant position (the idea that only terminal illness is a valid medical issue,) emotional argumentation. Everything in your post is designed to waste my time and devolve into a pissing match where you project opinions and goals onto your opponent for easy 'wins.' Why should anyone engage with you?

>>40224969
>yet the republicans decided to attack her on trans issues
Along with attacking her on everything else she said.

>>40224994
cope harder. I did nothing of what you accuse me of and you could never show it either.

>>40225031
Replying with 'cope' only solidifies my evaluation.

>>40225056
>my argument is that I have no argument, therefore you can't refute it
amazing, I'm in awe of your skill, you should've been there instead of strangio.

>>40223864
bro you're being silly