A general for readers and authors involved or interested in the growing phenomenon of 'web novels', serialized English fiction posted to websites such as:
>Royalroad, Webnovel, Scribblehub, Wattpad, Archive of Our Own, Spacebattles, HFY, various personal author websites, and more>Why read web novels?Not for prose or tight editing or deep themes, frankly. As a whole, web novels are infamous for content sprawl and pacing issues. If you enjoy having millions of words to sink your teeth into to get to know the world and characters, though, you may be interested. Keeping up with other readers on a weekly basis to discuss the story's events unfolding is another perk, in the same way discussing an ongoing TV show might be.
>Why write web novels?Ease of access & potential for Patreon earnings. Many successful authors gain an audience on their website of choice and funnel their readers into a Patreon. See https://graphtreon.com/top-patreon-creators/writing for an idea of what some are earning.
Also, once an author has earned a fanbase, transitioning into an Amazon self-publishing career is several orders of magnitude easier than starting 'dry'.
Previous:
>>24440187
At this point, I feel it's a tradition to post my progress from
>>24440434
>>24460169 (OP)I wholeheartedly recommend using a notepad that displays word count. It's a sublime dopamine hit when you craft a great sentences and realize you've simultaneously worked toward completing another piece of chapter length.
>>24460304>comma splicesuicide booth, now
just joking of course, but i remember commenting on it last time and it stayed in somehow
it's this line if you missed it
>The humble wall was merely three meters in length, some might have called it a glorified fence.>that's what she had seentense lapse--should be: that was what she had seen. that's is contraction for that is, "is" is present tense
(also that same line is a 2nd comma splice)
you really are overusing ellipses, i also mentioned that last time.
>you never have to bed a manparagraph break after this; dialogue and actions of different characters should be on different lines. having the mother speak then Azubi think is against convention
>confutedyou probably mean refuted, confuted is not appropriate here
>appearance;comma here, not semicolon. the semicolon is wrong
>"What are you, an infant?" she chastisedseen this a few times now, but redundant tags generally feel bad. i don't mind tags but they should add something new or clarify the speaker. in other words: have a purpose. in this case it's clear she's chastising, no need to tag it as such
>whatever you may mean?it's "Whatever may you mean?"
you really need to cut like 90% of these ellipses, way way overused
>Thatcher Brothersdo you mean "the Thatcher brothers"?
>criminal scumsscum, not scums
your work is becoming more and more readable over the months i've seen you posting, so good job there. however keep working at the sentence level because there are many issues still, enough it's pretty distracting.
>>24460304>>24460346Oh God, starting this thread strong I see.
>>24460326Congrats, though I don't know how people manage to fill thousands of words in one chapter, I have the problem of cramming too much in too little space, leaving me nothing to write about.
>>24460346>>comma spliceOkay, I went over it just now and noticed something 6 comma splices.
>it stayed in somehowYeah, I don't know how that happened.
>paragraph break after this; dialogue and actions of different characters should be on different lines. That's a good note, something I didn't consider.
>you probably mean refuted, confuted is not appropriate hereIs it?
Merriam Webster defines confute as "to overwhelm in argument : refute conclusively "
Emphasis on the word "conclusively", as in confute being "the final refute".
>comma here, not semicolon. the semicolon is wrongI guess that's what I get for trying to avoid comma splices.
>do you mean "the Thatcher brothers"?yes
>have a purposeIts purpose is to break the dialogue tag, as in implying a small pause between sentences.
>you really need to cut like 90% of these ellipses, way way overusedThe truth is, I'm afraid that if I remove them, the dialogue will look stoic. Which is why I'm trying to imply some sort of vocal tone with them.
>your work is becoming more and more readable over the months i've seen you postingIt's certainly slow progress, but progress is still progress.
Either way, thank you again for taking the time to give notes.
>>24460432>Okay, I went over it just now and noticed something 6 comma splices.There were only 2 I'm pretty sure. I autistically point them out lol. Which lines did you think were also splices? They probably weren't
>confutehas an connotation (or maybe direct definition) of "proving them wrong" usually via argument or some sort of proof. "You don't," isn't a confutation, it's a refutation. afaik
>Its purpose is to break the dialogue tag, as in implying a small pause between sentences.a valid strategy but I didn't feel it necessary. felt bad to me. purely stylistic so do as you please
>ellipsesAdd "she hesitated, she paused, she bit her lip, she looked down at the ground and shuffled" etc. spamming ellipses is NOT the way. They're like exclamation points—only use rarely when they really feel necessary
>>24440493>>was determined>passive voiceI'm way late on this, but that's not the passive voice, not at all. "Determined to x" is a different construction, of the same type as "raring to go", "wish to leave", or "sought to find", where a catenative verb is followed by to+infinitive. In this case "determined" works as an adjective, but it's derived from a verb, so it's able to inherit the structure. You can see more examples here:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/grammar/british-grammar/verb-patterns-verb-infinitive-or-verb-ing
For it to actually be passive there would need to be something acting on the snow, but no, it clearly has the theta role of agent and being determined to stop them is just an attribute of the snow, a characteristic it independently has. It's not being made to determine anything, and "stop their sled at every opportunity" is a normal subordinate clause.
>>24460505Lots of fancy words there fella. I don't really care about the definitions to be completely honest. "Relentless snow cover was determined to stop their sled" reads clumsily because of the 'was' construction—whether or not it's technically passive voice is beside the point
>>24460519It's a high school-tier complaint, on par with "preposition stranding is inherently wrong", but applied to the wrong thing. Do you also think any copular sentence is clumsy?
>>24460555I'm perfectly fine with some "was" sentences. Not that one. It's not a high school tier complaint, it's me being a reader and writer and noticing a bad sentence. i might have misused the term 'passive voice' but i fully stand by the fact it's a bad sentence
>copularstop using your fancy words on me
>>24460169 (OP)>SpaceBattlesWhat's a good way to get popular on there? Self-Insert fics?
I plan to write fanfiction so I could get a decent following then finally publish my original work so it can have a decent start. I'd also be learning how to improve writing in general as well while I'm writing fics.
>>24460444>Which lines did you think were also splices?I do not remember anymore. But I do feel it reads better.
>isn't a confutation, it's a refutation.Technically, it's a contradiction because it doesn't provide a counter-argument.
>a valid strategy but I didn't feel it necessary. felt bad to me. worthy of note
>>24460505Regardless, the present version is likely less weird:
>The snow cover wasted no opportunity in hindering their sled.
>>24460630write in a popular fandom, have a fun premise
>>24460560>stop using your fancy words on meA copula's the thingamajig you use to say "A is B", in the case of English it's the verb to be. It copulates, you see. So a copular sentence is one that simply says A is B.
In principle, the first part of the sentence is indistinguishable from any of its kind, like "apples are red", "the sky was dark", or the examples that were later said to be fine. The construction doesn't actually hinge on was, but on determined, which demands that you follow it up with something else. Determined... to what? It's at least gotta have another verb after it, even if you drop to be entirely.
The charm of the original, that I think was lost on the later versions, was that it elegantly attributed hostility to the climate. The snow has agency, and it hates them. The animacy it receives makes winter worse, that's a nice touch, and you can see him try to recapture it afterwards. Prosodically, "was" is unaccented and short, not particularly cumbersome, so it's not something I'd fixate upon, and none of the replacements are noticeably better in that regard.
Is there anything in How to Write a Sentence that explicitly calls this out? It felt pretty decent to me.
>>24460633Nice, glad to see you kept the animacy.
>>24460519>"Relentless snow cover was determined to stop their sled"The relentless snow cover seemed bound and determined to stop their sled.
>>24460643replacing was for seemed is a false fix
my dick seemed determined to fuck your mom
>>24460643Yeah, seem is copulative. The end result is identical.
I suppose since you're making me consider it, how I would write it is to use stronger verbs and create a sense of movement. Always good advice for descriptive sections. "was" and "seemed" descriptions usually fall flat—though not always of course
What animals are pulling this sled? Dogs? Presumably a horse isn't suitable for deep snow
>Winter in its relentless might had descended on their island home. Six panting canines struggled through the attacking snow cover, hauling Azubi's sled while half-submerged in the powdery dunes. What in summer might have taken half a day's journey had stretched to three. She pulled her coat tighter, wiggling her fingers inside her gloves. Her breath came out in white puffs.
>"Look, dear!"
First drafting ig
I realize I added a lot of stuff, but part of the reason "The snow cover wasted no opportunity in hindering their sled" is that it's just not a good, evocative sentence. It doesn't create much of an image. Especially as an opener, it needs to be stronger
The grammar wrangle is obfuscating the fact that it's a shitty anthropomorphism that shouldn't have been used whether it was grammatically accurate or not.
>>24459992>>24460087Thanks for the very detailed advice
>>24460666>Presumably a horse isn't suitable for deep snowI don't know, they are followed by men on horses, so where they go would have to be accessible to horses.
>Dogs?That's not something I ever considered. I'd presume the dog sled is a fairly modern innovation, and I think you would have to have a specific dog breed, and specific dog breeds did not exist until a few centuries ago.
>Six panting caninesI do wonder what's the point of numbering things.
Just my preference, but I don't like to number things unless they have something specific meaning.
>It doesn't create much of an image.Your draft is beautiful and pretty standard, but I don't really have an interest in writing in that detail. Granted, people complain my shit is far too to abstract, but I like to be concise and economic.
Maybe I should change my style, maybe it would be more appealing...
>>24460169 (OP)>not using the pride SB logoBased.
If your story is tagged as stub, or you have obvious plans to stub later, I will not read your story. Simple as
>>24460997most authors will want to stub as that stubbing is required for moving on to bigger things
>>24460997Almost all of the best stories and authors do this, so you're really missing out.
>>24460997>>24461197what is stubbing and why do RR authors do so?
>>24461218kdp requires exclusivity so authors take their story down to post it on Amazon. meanwhile the serial continues for those who are keeping up.
its a way of double dipping and its extremely effective so almost all of the pros do it
>>24460716>but I don't really have an interest in writing in that detailI consider my own style, and that excerpt, sparse in description too though. Classic fantasy authors would probably take multiple paragraphs: moving from snowy environment to the sled to the passengers then to the POV character. Easily a page worth of descriptions to open the chapter
Your style isn't minimalist so much as skeletal imo.
>>24461261I honestly don't know if I could do it, if you put a gun to my head.
Maybe I ought to try, so I can say I did...
>White, everywhere Azubi could see, was covered in that unpleasant color; there was the white sky that would only last a few hours before the darkness would pollute it once more, and white ground that hid the road.>The non-white shades she could see were limited; they were red, blue, and green. >Red was the color of their small sled that constantly bumped on uneven ground; sleeping was out of the question.>The color blue belonged to her mother's surcoat. She was preoccupied with reining the sled, her back was most companion she got.>Not counting the three men in green gambesons riding behind them. The riders did not sit correctly, but lazily reposed on their steeds as if they were about to fall off.>And more white fell from the sky, as if there wasn't enough. Winter was the name of their sadistic adversary, and he was determined to paint everything white.Hate it, now that I have tried, I can take confidence in that I made the right decision.
>>24461217The only one missing is the jew author. he will never have my money
>>24461411I think the idea and structure is fun, actually.
But this line is a microcosm of my issue with your sentence level writing in general:
>The non-white shades she could see were limitedYou say you like a flowery / non-plain writing style, but this is just stale. Not only is there "she could see" which is filtering (generally bad) but you fall back once again to the 'to be' construction (as you did constantly throughout, seriously, go count the 'was' and 'were's)
To-be is fine when needed. But it's almost every sentence, and multiple times a sentence. Way too much.
You want active verbs, to not filter through the POV (she thought, she saw, she heard, etc), to create a sense of movement, and to use stronger word choice in general
I initially only meant to rewrite the mentioned line but the idea was fun enough to make me want to rewrite the whole passage with your core concept. When you remove the filtering and use more active constructions, I do think it comes out better—but maybe it's not your style. I don't think a style that uses such stale constructions is worth keeping though, personally
>The rare snatches of actual color flashed over the backdrop, faded reds and blues and greens somehow garish for the contrast. >Red, their small sled bumping over uneven ground, jolting her awake whenever she lay her head down. Blue, the back of a surcoat, her stiff-spined mother occupied with the reins. And three green gambesons behind, each rider reposed on their steed at such an angle she kept peeking over her shoulder to see if one had fallen off yet.>Beyond that... white. Seeping from the sky and stifling life all around. Winter was the name of their sadistic adversary, and it was determined to drown them in monochrome.
>>24460646>>>24460643 (You)>replacing was for seemed is a false fixI don't write by explicit autistic grammatical rules. My over-arching rule, is flow. I red it, I want it to flow, read well. I know what I expect when i read a fiction novel, so when i write? Naturally I work things until I get what I expect.
Here, I liked the flow better. I liked the way it sounded.
>>24461588it wasn't an autistic grammar rule (it's not grammar at all). replacing was to seemed and adding another adjective doesn't improve the sentence because it's not fixing why it's clunky in the first place.
in fact converting was -> seemed is exactly the "autistic beginner writer suggestion" you'll see all over reddit and listicles and youtube videos
Anons who post to RR, what is your chapter 1 to chapter 2 retention rate?
>>24461654First chapter has 141 views, second chapter had 104. Both are around 1k words and got uploaded within ~2 hours, though I heard that between 30% and 50% retention is to be expected. By the end of my short story, it stands at 12 views on the 11th chapter.
>>24461654Chapter 1: 8,417
Chapter 2: 5,334
My first chapter is a news article that sets up some exposition -- so it's likely not the best chapter 1 going.
>>244616548.7k
7.5k
first chapter is a short 900 word introduction and the second is 5.6k words because I wrote it long before I learned about webnovel sites.
>>24461669Zero (0)
It's ogre
cover
md5: 617ac78562f2168c344f49eab98342c5
🔍
Remember to read my first novel on Royalroad, anons!
https://www.royalroad.com/author-dashboard/dashboard/119783
Part one of the intro is out now—8 full chapters and 28k words!
>>24462057you linked your dashboard brother
>>24462059>>24462057https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/119783/fff-class-unlucky-antagonist-villains-origin-story
Ok, maybe I'm too stupid for this job.
anyone run a RR ad? how many followers did it get you? what was your CTR?
cover
md5: 3a291edf0d3e3cc7c89e2b8f6c5d4160
🔍
Remember to read my first novel on Royalroad, anons!
https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/119783/fff-class-unlucky-antagonist-villains-origin-story
Part one of the intro is out now—8 full chapters and 28k words!
>>24462088I’m going to do it after releasing the ending of my intro, a really juicy part that will truly hook my readers.
>>24461590>>>24461588 (You)>it wasn't an autistic grammar rule (it's not grammar at all). replacing was to seemed and adding another adjective doesn't improve the sentence because it's not fixing why it's clunky in the first place.>in fact converting was -> seemed is exactly the "autistic beginner writer suggestion" you'll see all over reddit and listicles and youtube videosfair enough. I go for a fairly direct style.
>>24462009>It's ogreits all ogre now, eh?
kek
>>24462059>you linked your dashboard brotherhe's okay. it still requires a login.
>>24462030I quoted the wrong post
I am a retard, please be patient with me
Why haven't I seen any RR novel with a "character, places and events are fictional" disclaimer? I thought it was good practice to have them in your novel, or any literary work for that matter.
>>24462488nobody in their right mind would sue Bob Joe over his royalroad novel, first off, and those inclusions are really only major publishing corporations just covering their ass. Like what lawsuits even started prompting those? Any?
>>24462491Unintentional defamation, smearing of a particular trip location, stereotyped fantasy races, even attaching antagonistic identity to names that may sound too similar to irl people — there were all sorts of libel cases that won in court to the extent professional media conducts proofchecks beforehand
>Negative checking is a process by which producers of film, television and radio programs will attempt to ensure that the names of fictional characters cannot be confused with real life people>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintentional_defamation
>>24462512Which cases succeeded, out of curiosity? Seems silly that an unintended similarity to a public figure could be grounds for a winning law suit. I always thought those disclaimers were stuffed in by default, for little reason besides CYA
Scribblehub fucking sucks. All the stories are litrpg slop, fanfic for bullshit like the MCU, or written by ESL.
>>24462522all serial websites are like that, just in different flavors of shitty
>>24462520Some popular ones in recent memory
>defamation and libel>Hustler Magazine v Falwell 1988>parody ad implied Falwell did it with his mom>Supreme Court sided with Hustler, satire protected>set precedent for emotional distress claims>led to disclaimers like "this is parody">Bindrim v Mitchell 1979>novel featured therapist resembling real Dr Bindrim>author had attended his workshops>Bindrim won the libel suit>publishers now vet characters to avoid resemblance>place-based lawsuits>Cairns v Franklin Mint 2002>Princess Diana memorial stuff sold without estate permission>estate lost, but other cases succeeded for defaming places>90s romance novel implied real NYC hotel hosted orgies>settled out of court>name lawsuits>Hoffman v Capital Cities ABC 1999>magazine photoshopped Dustin Hoffman's face onto drag model>Hoffman won 3 million for likeness misuse>Estate of Michael Jackson v Random House 2010s>fictional pop star "Micah Jaxson" too close to MJ>settled privately, book pulped
>>24462512I named a few places after Scottish locations and nobody got butthurt over it so my answer is nobody cares
>>24461516>But this line is a microcosm of my issue with your sentence level writing in general:Granted, it was a very quick attempt.
>You want active verbs, to not filter through the POV (she thought, she saw, she heard, etc)That's interesting, think it's exactly stuff I struggle with.
>seriously, go count the 'was' and 'were's)Could experiment with tuning that down, but I'm not convinced it's necessary, bad, just simplistic. I believe that works aimed at a younger demographic use that sort of wording.
>but maybe it's not your style.Wouldn't say so, it is. Your writing, once again, is better, but I feel complexity comes at the cost of digestibility.
>>24462716>but I'm not convinced it's necessary, bad, just simplistic. I believe that works aimed at a younger demographic use that sort of wording.I personally think it is bad, and unless you mean middle-grade fiction (8-12) and not YA, I don't think younger works spam to-be verbs
"dont use was" is abused advice, but it came about for a reason, same as "dont use adverbs" and "show dont tell" and so on. and the reason is when you're using to-be verbs way too much, you're not making fun, active sentences
>>24462537These are mostly cases of big companies publicly and obviously defaming equally big name celebrities. A mere disclaimer wouldn't protect you from these.
RR has also pre-emptively made a rule for this:
>Real-Life People, Current Events, Real-World Religions, and Real-World Politics:>1. In fictional stories, these elements can be used within the narrative but must be approached with discretion and respect.So if there's any controversy, your work will be removed before there can be a court case.
>>244614112nd attempt
>Whiteness had consumed nearly all that could be seen; the sky, the ground, not even the trees had been spared.>Among the surviving colors, the redness of their sled stood out. No other color disputed the reign of their adversary quite like it.>The horse-drawn vehicle might have been small, and frequent bumps rendered any prospect of sleep a distant dream, but it still brought her comfort.>The same could not be said for her only companion on the sled, the blueness of her mother's surcoat — at least its backside. The driver's determination to reach their destination concealed her face from her daughter.>Three greenish gambesons trailed the sled. Nearly all other color had deserted the men and their horses. They hung on their mounts in resigned misery, barely holding on to their reins.>Still unsated with the scale of the freezing triumph, more white gunk bled from the above as winter whipped his subject.
>>24463324I do like the stronger word choice and more active constructions
Next big piece of advice is density of thought: convey thoughts as clearly and densely as possible. This doesn't mean you have to have short, punchy sentences--plenty of authors have long sentences, but even long sentences should have lots of meaning packed in. Dragging the same idea out unnecessarily usu. results in weak prose
eg.
>Whiteness had consumed nearly all that could be seen; the sky, the ground, not even the trees had been spared.(This is technically a splice but it's a rare instance where I'd forgive it)
to
>White had consumed the world: the sky, the ground, even the trees.>Among the surviving colors, the redness of their sled stood out. No other color disputed the reign of their adversary quite like it.>The horse-drawn vehicle might have been small, and frequent bumps rendered any prospect of sleep a distant dream, but it still brought her comfort.to
>Only the colors of their entourage survived, a horse-drawn red sled bumping along and rendering any prospect of sleep a distant dream--though the rhythm still brought her comfort. ("it' in the original is ambiguous--you meant the bumpy rhythm right?)etc
>>24463358>Only the colors of their entourage survived, a horse-drawn red sled bumping along and rendering any prospect of sleep a distant dream--though the rhythm still brought her comfort.Or if you're trying to preserve even more of your original and keep the 'reign of their adversary' turn of phrase (which I do like)
>Only the colors of their entourage survived the monochrome reign of their adversary. A small, horse-drawn red sled bumped along, rendering any prospect of sleep a distant dream--though she found the rhythm comforting nonetheless.
>>24463324>whitenessyou can't talk about that
>>24463371>clearly and densely as possibleI get the economic aspect of being concise.
But I kinda disagree with what makes for clear and dense sentences.
To me, the shorter the sentence is, the clearer it is. There must be a balance between evocativeness and conciseness.
>even the trees.This example of where you sacrifice evocativeness for brevity, and that undermines the point entirely. You removed "spared", which is the provocative punch the entire sentence relies on; if you remove it, you might as well remove the entire clause, because the rest was merely appetizers for the "spared".
That word implies merciless conduct without implicitly saying so.
>monochromeI guess you really like that word, huh?
I do not foresee myself using it in this context under any circumstances, because it's a modern photographic term. Like when I hear the word, my mind immediately goes to photo editing, which undermines the old-timish setting I'm trying to establish.
Even outside that, it's a kinda cumbersome and clunky word that doesn't rhyme with anything. In short, it isn't a fun word that flows off the tongue.
>>24463461>To me, the shorter the sentence is, the clearer it is.Long sentences can be clear and short sentences can be confusing, so I disagree--though yes, shorter sentences are EASIER to make clear
>There must be a balance between evocativeness and conciseness.I don't think there's a dichotomy here either. How evocative a sentence is isn't tied to its conciseness. Short sentences and long sentences alike can be evocative
The point I was getting at that I think you misinterpreted was that you use "filler words" or fluff out sentences and ideas that aren't worth fluffing out. Regardless of sentence length, you need thought density: no wasted words
>nearly all that could be seenis the example I will highlight as grotesquely unneeded and clumsy
Compare
>White had consumed nearly all that could be seento
>White had consumed the world>SparedAh, well, this isn't a word I would build a sentence off of, which is why I didn't think twice to remove it. If you thought it had punch to it, it didn't land for me. The strong part of that sentence is the concept of consumption
>White had consumed the worldis far more evocative to me
If you must include spared
>White had consumed the world: the sky, the ground, even the trees--nothing had been spared.>monochromefair enough, all authors have words and phrases they prefer or would use different turns of phrases in certain situations. I could see how it feels anachronistic, it didn't even register in my brain--I agree
>>24460169 (OP)royalroad is over. the retards have found a way to manipulate the ratings. I haven't read a single interesting new thing on the website for months despite refreshing every day
>>24463887this is just genre burn out then because the general consensus is that the increasing popularity of the genre had been increasing the default quality too
>>24463976>the general consensusBetween you and the voices in your head?
>>24464184because i browse litrpg communities, forums, etc. old stories are super shit man, you're just feeling genre burn out
IMG_9874
md5: e109ba8401046feb314a0aa6953b8c18
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>>24463887here's mine, not litrpg or isekai, just some good ol' space opera with mechas https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/117925/the-yellow-typhoon-and-the-final-waltz
Why does Wattpad allow these Nigerian bots to spam my comment sections?
>>24464337Funny, I had the same comment on the 1st chapter of my RR, a spambot that made ~30 comments in 2 minutes, but was banned a day later or so.
Anons that make money on these web novel places, I seek your advice. Does this sound like a viable way to build an audience? I was thinking of writing for these places (looking at Royal Road mostly), and I figured I'd try something like this. Write the first draft of a whole novel, put it on Patreon or Ream as a "V1" chapter by chapter till it concludes. Then, I will do a V2 for lower-tier subscribers, which I will edit and revise. The edit and revise it again for a V3 for Royal Road, and then, when the book concludes there, edit and revise it again for a V4 for Kindle Unlimited. Would that be a good way to get readers?
>>24464504>Write the first draft of a whole novel, put it on Patreon or Ream as a "V1" chapter by chapter till it concludes.But how would you get readers? Those platforms are just a means of subscribing, they don't advertise for you. You would legitimately not get a single reader for your entire V1.
The methodology has already been perfected (or close to it). I promise your innovation isn't better than what the sloplords do.
Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate uphill, I swear. Worry about writing a good story, not reinventing the monetization wheel.
>>24464530>Worry about writing a good story, not reinventing the monetization wheel.This
I care *on;y* about one thing, and one thing only. Making a fiction novel, that I feel would not have been out of place, in 1980-1990. The men that read back tne, when their acceptable styles od fiction morphed and dried up? its why they're gone.
I'm learning to write books I would have wanted to read when I was younger.
I can't be alone in this.
how do you bypass pass censorship?
>Royalroad
You further agree that you will not post, upload, send or otherwise transmit any content that is abusive, threatening, defamatory, contains hate speech, or is racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable or offensive in any way or in
violation of any other part of the Terms.
>Webnovel
By using the service you agree NOT to:
post, upload, or distribute any User Content or other content that is unlawful, defamatory, libelous, inaccurate, or that a reasonable person could deem to be objectionable, profane, indecent, pornographic, harassing, threatening, embarrassing, hateful, or otherwise inappropriate;
>Scribblehub
You agree not to post User Content that:
Contains any information or content that we deem to be unlawful, harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights, harassing, humiliating to other people (publicly or otherwise), libelous, threatening, or otherwise objectionable;
Are the two erotica sites the only places to circumvent censorship?
>>24464796ao3 is the only truly unmoderated place to post work that's semi popular
>how to bypasswell probably no one will read your shit to care about reporting you. so just post it i guess
if you do somehow get popular, then no, there's no bypassing it, you'll get banned
I'm on chapter 8, my new work.
I have already gotten a (fair) review on here, that my prose was okay. And my pace, POV, etc
I would humbly beg?
here i chapter 8.
dialog chapter.
Turning point. All the gumshoe legwork ,no traction, churning wheels? its coming together.
This is the turning point.
after this, its about to get ugly.
I feel like I've learned to use dialog, to drop knowledge on the reader.
>
I'm one of your own, and trying to bring back noir paperback pulps.
>
https://moonquillnovels.com/book/white-death/chapter/33135/chapter-08-whitewash
How do you 'drag out' chapters? It may be from my compulsive reading of non-fiction but I tend to write pretty to the point chapters. I get about 2500 words per chapter and I feel like I get an entire section done in it. For example one chapter is a re-introduction to a village and ends with bandits coming to the camp and getting killed. The next chapter is about the characters getting to the camp, wiping them out and freeing hostages which leads into the next chapter traveling to the city and entering
>>24464197Well, so are the new ones. ChatGPT just edited the soul out of them
>>244650892,5k is enough rambling most of the time, why would you drag that out?
>>24463887Royal road has never been good
Just wait until I start to post my novel, then that shitty site will have something worth reading
Royal road has never been good
Just wait until I start to post my novel, then that shitty site will get a lot worse.
>>24464796You can get your own website and publish it there
>>24465302BASED potential-chad
> I mistakenly uploaded a chapter
>Cancel it immediately after
>When I officially publish the chapter, it doesn't show up in Royal Road's last updates.
IT'S OVER
Man, I've got to install app blockers again. Temporal vampires sure are out there to get us these days.
>>24460169 (OP)If this is mostly a writer general, why did you split it off from wg?
>>24465440Performative slaves
>>24463484>grotesquely unneeded and clumsyI can't really put into words why I disagree with that and prefer my version.
I give you that:
>>White had consumed the worldIs admirable in its simplicity, but I feel it's unnecessary exaggeration, like too much salt.
Meanwhile
>>nearly all that could be seenHas a sort of poetic balance and sets an archaic tone.
But more importantly, it raises the question "By who? Seen by who?" and the entire paragraph is ultimately about revealing the characters around the narrator, so it serves as a sort of subtle hook.
So, it's another vocal point where you are missing the forest for the trees.
I'm probably coming off as arrogant for resisting it, either way. I do think my 2nd version of that might still be better than the initial:
>Winter had descended on their island home. The snow cover wasted no opportunity in hindering their sled. Even if it isn't perfect.
>>24465440It's for WN writers and readers alike, the percentage just fluctuates along with the topic. I'm one of the anons who voiced support for the creation of the general, and although I haven't created any threads, I supported anon's idea of kickstarting /wng/ to see whether the experiment would garner traction. To contextualize, it originated from the awareness that /wg/ was far too vague with literary genres and there were a lot of posts you would rather not read as they were little relevant or even disruptive to what interchanges and advice web authors and readers sought. What you can immediately notice is that there are far fewer resident schizos here because white noise and trolling are immediately assumed as off-topic and counter-productive to your novel status, whereas in /wg/ that's simply ambiguous and a far more indulged pattern. With the focus of web novels attracting far more specific, concise, and aligned posters, I can say the environment is definitely more fruitious than the best case scenario I had expected the general to expand.
Also, not to mention the bias toward genreslop. I dislike LitRPG but not enough to ever come up as a critique since a favorite story of mine is LitRPG, but many aspiring authors were shunned from the standard general because of their story tropes and mechanics which would otherwise be absolutely acceptable for a WN This general simply allows for a niche of discussion that couldn't exist before to communicate web serials without alienating literary preconceptions.
Also, not to mention the bias toward genreslop. I dislike LitRPG but not enough for it to ever come up as a critique since a favorite story of mine is also LitRPG, but many aspiring authors were alienated from the standard general because their stories had frowned-upon tropes and mechanics which would otherwise be absolutely acceptable for WNs. This general simply allows for a niche of discussion that couldn't exist before to disseminate web serials without being alienated by literary preconceptions
>>24465508Sometimes the biggest slopgenres have the biggest gems. Two of my favourite stories are a cultivation one and a litrpg and I fucking hate the genre's in general because 95% of them are copy paste dregs that you you can blur your eyes at and not tell the difference between the two. The only difference with litrpg's is that I can actually recall the names of the characters throughout the story because they aren't Chinese
>>24465487Fine then, if this is not just wg for non-snobs, let's discuss web novels. I want to read something new, but I have at least some standards. I already read or at least tried the usual recommendations, so I'm looking either for some hidden gems, or maybe new stuff that is very promising. No wish fulfilment stuff, and preferably no litrpgs. Feel free to shill your own works. Out of web novel works the ones I liked the most are Worm and MoL, if that helps
omg black sun anon i ran into your ad in the wild. actually top tier
>>24465518I'm the same way anon. Try:
practical guide to evil
years of the apocalypse
a practical guide to sorcery
katalepsis
all of those are more traditional style writing and better than most trad fantasy books
>>24465512Reading a Japanese litrpg novel in my mid-teens is precisely what got me to enjoy speculative literature all the way to H. G. Wells and Wagner in the first place. One of my life goals is to hopefully use the profit of my story to gift that jap a Toyota for pirating his novels.
>>24465518>No wish fulfilment stuff,>I like MoL and Worm?
>>24460169 (OP)>Web Novel GeneralIf this shit is allowed, then so should be fanfiction.
>>24465557I read some fanfic based on a rec and I was pleasantly surprised that the ones I read at least were better written than a lot of stuff I’ve seen on royalroad
>>24465508>their stories had frowned-upon tropeslist them
>>24465570Fanfiction general is far too brand-specific for it to work here because it goes beyond mere genre preference to also require specific series awareness. Think of someone posting their self-insert Undertale fanfic, and right after someone posts their Remilia Scarlett +18 fanfic, and then another posts their Genshin Impact yaoi ship fanfic, Then Hazbin Hotel omegaverse fanfic. The discussion not only would turn schizophrenic and go down crashing in flames then anons would quickly recede to their series-focused generals.
>>24465594>The discussion not only would turn schizophrenic and go down crashing in flamessounds kino
>>24465440/wg/ is for writing literature as an art form.
/wng/ discusses how to make money copying whatever flavor of the month garbage brainless mouthbreathers consume this month, and how many empty words you printed out this week, and creativity or quality are not relevant to this. These hook-nosed goblins are scorned on /wg/ for good reason
>>24465599kek we're in your head so bad you even followed us to our thread
>>24465607I thought there'd be talk about web novels but am shown wrong every time
>>24465622What? are you
>>24465518 ?
You even got responses with recs then ignored them. If you want to talk about web novels, talk about them, people are responding lmfao
>>24465089The "snowflake" method is specifically about taking a small idea and expanding it into a larger idea. https://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/articles/snowflake-method/
>>24465440Because /wg/ is more of a containment thread for people who don't write & just want to pick fights over minutia, or to extol the virtues of styles that are several centuries out of date (such as litfic).
A columnist once told me that to retain a higher percentage of views past the first pages you need to manufacture something called reader trust. Your opening piece can be undoubtedly great, but if you aren't making the reader trustful of the narrative, they won't feel like opening up to either the story or its subjects, lowering the chance of flipping the page. Now that I think about it, this impacts quite a lot of RR novels when you check their reader frequency discrepancy.
>>24465594It would be pretty funny to see though
>>24465720This sounds like another in the long array of buzzwords that basically "arcane magic spell that makes people care about your shit". Any analysis on what "reader trust" actually entails or how it's achieved?
>>24465740I'm nta and I don't know if this is what he means, but having a solid opening makes readers WAY more likely to buy into any less-standards tropes and twists. Once they trust you, they give you more leeway on what you want to do
It's the same reason you show up to a job interview with a shave and a good outfit. First impressions are massive and color the entire interaction—including from author to reader.
Especially in a field where there's no vetting via agents and publishers, you MUST put your best foot forward from moment 1
>>24465740All advice boils down to "write well, not badly". What does it mean to write well and what does it mean to write badly? The answer to both can be distilled to "fun things are fun". And some people write 500-page manuals where they just reiterate this over and over with pictures and graphs.
>>24465740He was bland about it on purpose? If I guess it was something more cerebral than mere grammatical consistency. Think of the psychological lull a reader has when he sees a character fail, struggle, and then succeed. As opposed to failing and then succeeding ("I'm so weak I'm overpowered") or struggling and succeeding ("I always face tough challenges and win") tropes. The trajectory that makes it feel earned and believable makes people trust and relate to the narrative drive more.
>read so much mtl chinese slop that i have to detox by reading literary works like Moby Dick for a day or two to regain my prose level
>realize this method is exactly like the body/soul cultivation methods in chinkslop where the MC burns their soul/body away and then rebuilds it, ad nauseam
will my prose ever improve or should i just take a long break from my MTL chinkslop addiction before writing?
>>24465766Don't do MTL bro. Simple as that
>>24465468Sounds like we have fundamentally opposing preferences of style, then. Best of luck with your writing
>>24465518The art of gold digging
Rend
Father of monstrosity
A chronicle of lies (good but fandom is scaly)
The cabin is always hungry (litrpg-ish)
>>24465543>Worm>Wish fulfilment???
>>24465594>The discussion not only would turn schizophrenic and go down crashing in flamesHow exactly is that different from the usual /lit/ thread?
>>24465884Worm is literal YA fiction about a teenage girl who uses bug powers and eventually kills god. It's a textbook power fantasy. You seriously don't think it's wish fulfillment? That's really fucking funny
>>24465895A protagonist getting to do cool stuff is not wish fulfilment necessarily. By the same token, Berserk is a literal YA fiction about a teenage boy that gets magical sword powers and eventually kills God('s angel). Surely you understand the difference between Worm's narrative and some random story from Royal road where the protagonist isekais into a fantasy world and gets overpowered numbers shitted out on screen, while effortlessly dealing with all the world's problems. You're just baiting me with your stupidity
>>24465998>Surely you understand the difference between Worm's narrative and some random story from Royal road where the protagonist isekais into a fantasy world and gets overpowered numbers shitted out on screen, while effortlessly dealing with all the world's problems.It's just a matter of scale. I consider both wish fulfillment, worm just has less and is written like an actual novel. It's still very much a YA power fantasy though
There's literally a scene where Taylor is "too cool and important for her bullies now"
Compare Worm to normal adult fantasy. Taylor is a typical YA super-special protag who's always pulling some bullshit out of her ass and by the end she's literally a demigod and saves the literal world.
>You're just baiting me with your stupidityTo be fair, from my perspective you're the stupid one. As 4chan discussions usually go
>>24465747>>24465753>>24465765I really hate this shamanistic belief in "the magic of storytelling that just works and makes your work super popular". There are lots of storytelling practices you can exercise, but they're all conditional and none of them guarantee success. Success is nebulous and found through a complex combination of luck, catching trends, finding your audience, marketing, and probably some other things.
>>24466111Like selling your soul.
>>24466111>I really hate this shamanistic belief in "the magic of storytelling that just works and makes your work super popular".>Success is nebulous and found through a complex combination of luck, catching trends, finding your audience, marketing, and probably some other things.And yourself hit the point. No one can tell when a story will be successful, most good works are "successful" (in some way, even if they aren't making millions to their writer), so all that is left is believing that if you write good, scream to heaven and back to people read your work and get some endorsements, you may make it.
Desu, the most important part is people actually knowing your work exists, there's so many authors writing which leaves you lost in a sea of noise.
Which is why I can't understand people writing for success. For fun, you can write for no one, but success implies getting rather famous, at least enough to make a living from it
I'm gonna push back and say writing for success is entirely possible and, if you know what you're doing, much more guaranteed than you think. There are multiple royalroad authors who create fresh pen names and with just an ad can launch successful series back to back--along with obviously being popular on their main pen name.
Yes, there is no guarantee, yes, it's hard to predict exactly HOW successful a work will be, but going about the process in the proper way and targeting specific tropes and storytelling structures can bring a competent author into the 90-95%+ success rate range. The trick is actually understanding the genre and audience, which nobody here (or elsewhere) tries to do. Most of the people even in /wng/ are just slithering into the litrpg genre with hopes of making cash. Obviously that's not a recipe for success.
>>24466085>There's literally a scene where Taylor is "too cool and important for her bullies now"It's called character development, man, and Worm handled that particular aspect quite well. Wish fulfillment would have been her beating up her bullies while everyone claps.
>Compare Worm to normal adult fantasy. Can you please provide me with an example of what you consider a "normal adult fantasy", mister serious respectable adult man with responsibilities.
>Taylor is a typical YA super-special protag She's not super-special tho. If you talk about your average YA book, like 'Arry Po'ah or the antiutopia slop (Divergent and Hunger Games and whatever else was popular back in the day), the protagonists there are spcecial snowflakes, but in Worm there's no prophecy or special class or anything. Taylor is a normal parahuman, like hundreds of thousands of others in that world.
>who's always pulling some bullshit out of her ass I don't think there were that many asspulls to be honest, and most of the conflicts and fights got resolved in a clever way, that didn't ruin my feeling of verisimilitude, while also being satisfyingly unexpected.
>and by the end she's literally a demigod and saves the literal world.First off, you will really increase your enjoyment of Worm if you pretend it's an open-ended story where the last chapter is Taylor visiting her mother's grave, and there's absolutely no timeskip or sequel or anything like that. Secondly, she sacrificed her own humanity to let an alien supercomputer get melded with her brain or something like that, there was very little of "her" left to be a demigod at the end there. Thirdly, fantasy protagonists save the world at the end of their story all the time, even Frodo saved the world, and he was from the quintessential "normal adult fantasy". Same with coming into the apex of their power around the climax of the story, this is standard stuff, come on now.
Worm is a power fantasy. Which is a bit different from wish fulfilment in the sense that a power fantasy includes failing to live up to the power, and being flawed, as part of the fantasy. The grit and failure to be a Superman type hero, and instead being an edgy anti-hero like Taylor, is part of the appeal.
>>24466200>Wish fulfillment would have been her beating up her bullies while everyone claps.no, that would have been bad wish fulfillment. i think this is just a definition issue desu.
>normal adult fantasyTolkien, GRRM, etc
>mister serious respectable adult man with responsibilitiesI'm in /wng/ and I've read worm, obviously I'm down with the slop, don't get weirdly defensive
>Taylor is a normal parahuman, like hundreds of thousands of others in that world.Taylor has mad plot armor and gets away with insane amounts of bullshit, plus she keeps finding frankly absurd ways to expand her powerset when they should be mostly static
>frodo saved the world tooit's really about execution man. Frodo is just some guy, that's the whole point. Taylor has super powers, insane amounts of plot armor, and the WAY she saves the world is mind controlling nearly every superhero present, then killing a god who's about to rip apart billions to the 80th power earth-alternates.
Like if you wanna argue about me being disingenuous, how the fuck are you gonna compare Taylor and Frodo
I think in your head you're just defining "power fantasy" and "wish fulfillment" to only apply when the story is trashy and poorly written. I would also consider Sanderson's stuff mostly power fantasies, and quite a lot of popular fantasy fiction.
I would be interested in you actually defining those terms, then explaining how Worm doesn't count, lol
>>24466220>no, that would have been bad wish fulfillment. i think this is just a definition issue desu.I dunno I guess I'd define "wish fulfillment" as the author taking the narrative path of least resistance, and letting situations play out in the most indulgent way for the protagonist, who often serves as an insert for either the audience, the author himself, or both. All the girls fawn over him, he gets random powerups for no reason, anybody who dares oppose him is eeeevil, just because they're eeeeeeevil. Quintessential example: Kirito, 90% to be the protagonist of any popular Royal Road novel.
"Power fantasy", although I wasn't the one that brought it up, is when the protagonist is super fucking kewl and badass and kicks everyone's ass. Examples: John Wick, Doom, Berserk, One Punch Man. I don't think Worm quite fits this category, nor Sanderslop for that matter.
>Taylor has mad plot armor and gets away with insane amounts of bullshit, plus she keeps finding frankly absurd ways to expand her powerset when they should be mostly staticI think she has an alright amount of plot armor, though I agree the story would have been better if it stayed street level for longer. What powerups are you talknig about btw? She only got hearing from her bugs, which she did have from the start, just didn't know how to use IIRC. And she started using spicy bugs? But that's not really a powerup tho, just a new tactic. And she got some gear at a later point that let her fly but that wasn't her, you know, it was some guy who made it for her.
>it's really about execution man. Frodo is just some guy, that's the whole pointIf you wanna talk about specialness and asspulls, Frodo saved the world through a Divine Intervention, from capital G God. Just saying. That guy created the universe, you know. A lot more impressive than some alien parasite that is sad because his wife died.
>the WAY she saves the world is mind controlling nearly every superhero present, then killing a god who's about to rip apart billions to the 80th power earth-alternates.That's not the triumphant wish fulfillment you're describing, it's her giving herself brain damage out of desperation to try and save humanity.
>>24466314>What powerups are you talknig about btw?I read worm in like 2017 so I can't remember precisely, but didn't her range expand over time, she learned how to imitate speech through her bugs, her multitasking became way too good, etc. Like I get you can practice with powers but Taylor's raw ability strength grew in a way that didn't happen with other parahumans iirc
>That's not the triumphant wish fulfillment you're describing, it's her giving herself brain damage out of desperation to try and save humanity.I do think 'power fantasy' is what I meant more than wish fulfillment, because Taylor feels super duper special through the whole series in that typical YA way that isn't seen in more adult oriented fiction.
i like female protag stories
>>24466476Yes I have mommy issues too
You might think I'm making fun of you with this post but I'm just relating my honest experiences
>>24466476This but yuri, female dynamics are very fun to write since you don't need to encompass male agency, thus being able to create archetypes as chaotic as the story sees fit with a lack of reader scrutiny.
>>24466476at least on RR if you write a female protag you don't have to deal with the utter retardation of catering to the very large portion of male-protag readers who will sperg out the moment the mc isn't a stoic Chad Thundercock
fem mcs can make mistakes and have personalities, male mcs cannot
>>24466530To me it's more fascinating how people get so invested into another generic self-insert shitter #323384 they start getting angry at other characters in the story when those don't throw themselves at the MC's feet instantly or dare antagonize him
>>24466398> her range expand over time,Her range fluctuated with her emotional state, which is supposedly how every power works, tho we don't get to see that from the perspective of other parahumans, obviously.
> she learned how to imitate speech through her bugsYeah, I imagine it would sound something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCPjK4nGY4
Which is pretty cool, but not really a powerup in a traditional sense, more of a clever application of her existing powers.
> her multitasking became way too good>>My practice sessions, conducted away from prying eyes, told me I could direct a single insect to move an antennae, or command the gathered horde to move in formation. With one thought, I could single out a particular group, maturity or species from this jumble and direct them as I wished. An army of soldiers under my complete control.Is what she says about her powers in chapter one. I think her micro skills were already supposed to be pretty good. She just grew a lot more paranoid over time and was actively using her bugs to navigate the world after she went blind for a bit.
>I do think 'power fantasy' is what I meant more than wish fulfillment, because Taylor feels super duper special through the whole series in that typical YA way that isn't seen in more adult oriented fiction.I honestly didn't feel that at all, don't know what to tell you. Either way, I don't have any problem with power fantasies, if they're executed correctly.
>>24465440/wg/ spergs don't write and prefer to make low-effort bait about how genre stuff is not real writing
Would a shitty writer cry at something they wrote? Or would that be an indicator that they wrote something at least somewhat emotionally stirring?
>>24466476>i like female protag storieswhen they're done right, Its fine. There's a tendency to make a female lead too heroic and awesome. And I launch that same accusation at male super duper leads, too. If I wanted to read a comic book? I'd buy a comic book. Heroes need faults and limitations. A lot of genre lit suffers from this. Take your typical female FBI MC. She always drop dad gorgeous. Head to toe in unrealistic designer everything. Girly kung fu, crack shot, smarter than everyone around her. Its asinine. I'm perfectly willing as a reader to engage in suspension of disbelief, but they really stretch my incredulity too far.
>>24465518>I have some standards>I liked worm
>>24466600>There's a tendency to make a female lead too heroic and awesomeThat's the sardonic quippy female archetype. I think Azarinth Healer's Illea is the most prominent example by far. Yeah I hate that archetype in the sense that there's nobody and nothing in the plot that can actually bitchslap the smug out of their faces.
>>24466627of web novels i dont see how worm could be considered a joke. if you think all wn are trash fine, but worm is pretty objectively one of the best. what do you consider good?
>>24466627Out of all the webnovels I read, Worm is probably the best one
>Glownigger adjacent female spy is seducing her way into the upper echelons of a gang
>Cringe writing it
How do I make sexual stuff not cringey? Or do I just drop it
>>24466937An FBI agent must be trained for that. He wouldn’t act or flirt like a drunkman in a bar.
Try to play on the power dynamics. Have the female spy add something juicy about the location, such as some information he wants.
>>24466954Sorry, I formatted my post kind of poorly. I meant that the agent is a woman and she's trying to seduce her way into the gang/mob.
>>24467039Oh...then let's shift the subject.
For a gang member his facade is everything. She must inflate his ego.
Try with some master-slave roleplay
>>24467084kek, not the direction I would go with but I see your point about ego
for female lead stories I've been reading these two recently:
https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/109544/the-art-of-gold-digging
https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/105295/the-bell-tolls-for-me
>>24466539>character disagrees with the MC>instant comment: this guy's getting on my nerves, hope he dies soonI frankly find this disturbing.
>>24467844this phenomenon does however explain the rationale behind characters in chinese webnovels who even slightly inconvenience the protagonist are punished by the plot itself.
>>24468478I wonder if RR readers expect disrespectful characters to die because Chinese webnovels kill them, or if Chinese webnovels kill them because their readers want them to die
>>24468502It seems like the latter, since the Chinese audience are actually disgusted or discomforted by the average Chinese webnovel MC, though they are used to it by virtue of having the mindset: “it makes for a good story, not something to emulate”. this paraphrased adage is generally useful for stories like Water Margin, and that Chinese morality, despite sharing many similarities with the West, is actually different in small ways that matter very much.
>>24467844Instead of feeling moral shock, just consider that those types of readers are teenagers or manchildren. Man, RR writers are so fucking Reddit, it's insane.
This is why no story that diverges from a modern frame of reference ever gets produced, most characters are just modern westard cosplays, regardless of the setting.
Finished up with Mother of Learning.
Really enjoyed how they explored the magic system in that one.
Can someone shill me with something similar, preferably with a developed side cast.
>read comment thread for first chapter of a webnovel
>immediately witness some of the most deranged and ill-composed arguments ever written by mankind
what causes this phenomenon
>>24468755Retards feeling entlited at something available for free.
>>24468605years of the apocalypse is another time loop with lots of magic and world building. well rated too
>>24468985Thanks, I'll check it out.
>>24468917FFF-Class, I've linked in the second red link
I haven't kept up with web fiction for a few years. Are the popular trends still the same? Self insert progression fantasy litrpg with a main character who ostensibly starts weak but has broken abilities that always scale to just above whoever they're fighting?
>>24469077Now there's litrpg with chinese characteristics too
>>24469060I'll check it out too, thanks.
>>24468755That might happen for ESL webnovels on scribblehub but space operas on Royal Road attract better comments.
If you write a stupid book then expect only stupid people to take it seriously.
>>24460169 (OP)https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/116271/infierno-a-series-of-horror-stories/chapter/2271373/ed-at-colonus
>>24470154Naw man even in the good web serials people post the dumbest shit in existence. I really doubt space operas are magically saved from the well-known stupidity of the masses. If they are, it has to be because the work is getting like 10 comments a chapter
>>24460997I go out of my way to pirate them if they do that shit
>>24440358>female leadNo, stop doing this
>>24466562>/wg/ spergs don't write and prefer to make low-effort bait about how genre stuff is not real writing>
this does explain a a lot on here, lol
>>24470642self-inserting into a man is the gayest thing you can do
>>24470642Why? So there can be another male led webnovel for losers to latch on to and demand he be perfect edgy badass with no personality?
>>24470851Yes
so that there isn't another female led novel for losers to latch on to and demand she be perfect edgy badass with no personality
Ironically male MCs tend to be fellated both in and out of universe more on RR webnovels.
>>24470944Which is VERY gay. I would never fellate a guy. Only women.
>>24470882>so that there isn't another female led novel for losers to latch on to and demand she be perfect edgy badass with no personalityjust don't read those ones. its pretty obvious when it'll be like that
why is there a person so vehemently against webnovels with male protags? isn’t it just a trope?
>>24471109Most of them are by the numbers power fantasies with thinly veiled self inserts and bland characterization. Basically YA lit, but with dudes and just as garbage.
>>24471109you seem to have it backwards. The person saying "stop doing this" is talking about female web novels.
If I were to take a standard fantasy setting and add gamified stats pages for characters in between scenes, maybe occasionally one for an enemy at the beginning of a fight, would that be enough to appeal to litrpg readers without any in universe acknowledgement of the game elements?
>>24471495I wonder, Overlord did something like that, all characters have stats but only the transmigratted ones understand theirs.
Native characters do reach a cap at some point in their lives but don't have access to their stats nor understand leveling beyond "The more I work, the better I am at this task" and "somewhere, a person reaches their limit".
Would put a related picture but upload kept failing somehow.
>>24471495Not really. LitRPG readers do care about the stat screens and genre trappings, but far more importantly they care about the narrative structure of the typical litrpg. You're missing the point hard if you think the stat screens themselves are what matters
>>24471594I may be having trouble separating the genre trappings from the narrative structure. I've admittedly only read a handful of litrpg stories, but the plot and character progression have never stood out as particularly unique for the genre. All I can think of that you could be referring too is the aspect of number go up and unlocking new abilities, which in my mind doesn't quite set it apart from other pulp fiction.
>>24471594not him but would something like the Expanse novels pass as litrpg?
after all, it was written as an RPG initially, and some scenes especially the Tycho Station heist/outbreak in the first book read a lot like an RPG game night
>>24471022Whenever it's a female protag, yeah.
>>24471653the cyclical power fantasy format. add stats to a normal fantasy and you don't get a normal litrpg lol
>>24471704>the expansehaven't read. i doubt it though
please keep in mind im talking about what actually makes those slop litrpgs popular. the "power up get skills and items beat bad guy level up more" ad nauseam is the identifying characteristic to all of the big ones like primal hunter, dotf, almost everything else topping amazon charts. very few trad novels follow this formula
>>24471750>the cyclical power fantasy formatAh, I see. This is a failure to communicate on my part, I think you're assuming I'm talking purely about more traditional Tolkien inspired fantasy, whereas I'm casting a wider net as to what can still be a "standard" fantasy setting while allowing for more wiggle room in structure. In specific the story I have in mind is very much inspired by LNs from the period of time just before isekai started to take off, that nascent moment that led to the early days of litrpg before the term became defined. I count that under the same category of pulp as most webfiction, being a serialized story made to run indefinitely.
>>24471864Oh, in that case, I would even recommend you throw in some basic litrpg trappings for the genre boost. Litrpg and anime/LN style plots are pretty closely related
>>24471879>>24471864>without any in universe acknowledgement of the game elements?Although this seems strange to me—you would acknowledge it in the narrative but none of the characters would know it's there? Not sure if that would fly, and I don't see the point. litrpg is litrpg because the characters are interacting with the system
>>24471594>LitRPG readers do care about the stat screens and genre trappingsIt surprises me that people actually manage to parse those, I always took stats screens as a way of the author to inform a character's capabilities so I mostly speed read them, but I've seen a comment trying to derive the xp formulae on one story I was reading, so I guess readers do care about it.
>>24471901It depends exactly which audience you're targeting, there's a market for both crunchy litrpgs with assloads of combat (the bigger audience desu) but there's also plenty where it's more of a setting/backdrop thing and the novel is more about characters and plot (wandering inn is the obvious massively popular example)
>>24471894As mentioned by
>>24471879 it's mostly for the genre boost. But I've also always enjoyed both being able to go off on a vaguely related tangent and playing around with structure and medium, which I think stat screens would enable. I already do a lot with footnotes inspired by Pratchett, so that might give you an idea of how I'm approaching the idea. Bit less comedic, however.
>>24471704>not him but would something like the Expanse novels pass as litrpg?no.
The game systems must be in place. The narrative is around the characters interacting with the systems and how that drives them forward(regardless of if the characters know about it or not.)
I never got comments about my male or female protags in any of my fics desu, maybe it's a blessing in disguise. I guess being a crappy writer not writing progression, litrpg, or fantasy isekai does that though.
Hey, I'm looking for recommendations for progression stories with interesting power systems and detailed worlds, which aren't just numbers go up slop. some of my favourites as recommendations for others with similar tastes and for reference are
spire's spite
-tower climber, actual litrpg but with a well integrated and non standard system with a faerie theme based around the number 3. all power is gained through risking your life to climb a new floor of a spire, or by getting better with your existing powers
-Well developed world with a very real feeling city that the story is set in, relatively low powered protagonist trying to survive under the boot of tyrants and carve out a space for himself and his people
-not a edgy solo story, climbing has to be done in groups, so party dynamics and interpersonal relationships are important
-ongoing
super supportive
-looks like a litrpg but isn't. power system based around a person's "soul" being shaped into a magical machine, and development is through discovering new applications and functions of the magical machine, which eventually allows the person to pick up new magical machines
-very detailed world. humanity has become a subject of a space wizard empire. superheroes are now a thing, but they largely have to live on an island in the middle of the Pacific so they can easily be nuked out of existence if anything goes wrong. lots of exploration of a society where superpowers are a normal aspect of life, of alien cultures, and of the interactions between species
-explores themes of trauma, purpose and meaning in life, choosing one's path
-protagonist is again on the lower end of the power spectrum, at the minimum viable level considered possibly being danger ready. non standard power that he has to work out largely on his own
-ongoing
essence of cultivation
-not litrpg, and despite the name, not really cultivation either. it's a wizard story, with a power system that I'd describe as runescape crossed with electron orbitals from chemistry. dnd inspired magic cast through absorbing ambient elemental or catalytic essences and fitting them into pre defined electron shell like patterns
-transmigration story with a mid level wizard dropped in a cultivation world. think 9th level dnd wizard or so
-story about magical research and discovering the similarities and differences between the power of the wizard and the native cultivators
-is a relatively short story, as op stopped posting after finishing book 1
>>24465895Worm & Ward are miserable grimderp works, never giving you a breather. Everything just gets worse at breakneck pace.
I consider Taylor an anti-mary sue, if that's even a real thing, for me; one of the biggest things about mary sue's is the protag seemingly never being wrong, everyone has their back, unearned adoration of the cast, ect.
Meanwhile, Taylor is an unreliable narrator with -50 wisdom stat due to being a retarded teenager, and everyone comes to hate her guts.
>>24466579Nah I get teary eyed writing my story all the time (emotional moments for characters mainly, not so much the torture I put my MC through). However I'm my own #1 fan unironically; I really really like what I write. I'll re-read what I wrote yesterday for an editing pass before I start writing in the morning, and I get sad when I reach the end and remember I have to keep writing the story to read more.
>>24472272>I'll re-read what I wrote yesterday for an editing pass before I start writing in the morning, and I get sad when I reach the end and remember I have to keep writing the story to read more.This level of self-glazing might actively be harmful brother. I do like my own writing but first drafts are rough
I'm namefagging here to announce a free (short) fan fiction I just did -
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/14481771/1/
This is set in CS Lewis' "Wood Between The Worlds"
>>24472372Well I definitely have some larger narrative problems that I would have been able to catch in editing if I had written the whole story before posting it, but in general my writing is pretty good and only needs a second pass for rare typos and changing words here and there.
I would post a sample from this morning (as of now unedited) but I really don't want anyone ever tying my work to 4chan, just in case.
>>24472393>but in general my writing is pretty good and only needs a second pass for rare typos and changing words here and there.Just wondering if you're being objective. First drafts that clean would be shocking to me. I've seen a lot of highly undeserved self-proclaimed "genius writers" on 4chan. The egos here are crazy for what's 95% painfully amateurish writing
Not trying to be a crab, just injecting some reality into the discussion. I don't think any pro authors are so confident in their first drafts...
sample
md5: 374bbe1211e4755ce921e435f94b220f
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>>24472405Here's a screencap, deleting in 15 or so minutes. Everything from 4.2 onward is new from today, unedited.
>>24472426You'd be better off posting to rentry and deleting the rentry; archiving websites capture images
But at low quality, so this won't be readable. The image in thumbnail form will forever exist now though—don't worry, again, too small to read. Just FYI
I'll look through it
>>24472433on a somewhat related note it's so fucked you can't delete reentry if you didn't bother saving the code somehow.
>>24472433I know some archives also capture the images but if someone scours that hard to find what will be patreon exclusive anyway then I'm already lost. Plus I'm sure there's some AI out there that can match writing styles across websites. I just don't want to go spamming links to my own work here.
>>24472426I took critical damage when you failed the dialogue formatting test. Seriously, why is this a final boss for all writers on 4chan? Please go look up how to format dialogue
Halfway through:
Your flow is pretty decent, though your prose is plain. To the point I consider it a demerit. Fine for web novels, I guess. And since this is unedited I'll forgive all of the places that need tightening
>Beth giggled elegantlyreally jarred me though, made me come type this out
Done:
Hm. It's definitely amateurish, sorry anon, but the good news is the flow is much much better than what I usually see here. So many anons struggle with stringing sentences together in a way that's easy to read. They either just don't know how to make simple prose that flows well, or try too hard to write "good prose" and it's even worse for that fact
I would say the sentence level writing is not great but serviceable for a slop serial. So my critique moves to higher-order concepts like pacing and how engaged I feel.
It felt pretty cliche and boring. There isn't much interesting happening in this scene. Since this might just be a glue scene, a section bridging to the interesting parts, I won't make too many assumptions for your story as a whole—but if you thought this was fun by itself, I have bad news.
Do you post to RR? This seems like a RR story. How do you perform there? I'll admit I only read the good slop so I'm not a true degen
>>24472439>on a somewhat related note it's so fucked you can't delete reentry if you didn't bother saving the code somehow.well, i mean, how else would it work? lol. an account? defeats the purpose. just save it to a rentry text file, that's what I do
>>24472426wow, Sarah really spent all that time and effort cutting her sandwiches into two apple-like spheres
>>24472452>>Beth giggled elegantlyI considered "Beth tittered", but decided against it. I know adverbs are generally frowned upon but I liked the repetition of the 'g' sound, and there's some good Ls in there too. Tittered was a more rare word that might lose a few readers, and I would save that for a more explicitly busty character so that can double dip on the "tit".
What exactly do you mean by dialogue formatting? That sounds like an easy change I could make.
It is a bit of a bridge scene, but I think it's demonstrative of overall writing skill. I feel like I struggle a bit to write compelling action scenes.
Yep, it's on RR, but I waited too long to buy an ad so I'm a bit behind the curve for having over fifty chapters posted so far. I started posting in January and just hit 20k views last night, and still haven't cracked 100 followers. I wish I could get more reviews and ratings but I feel like it's so sleazy to do review trades, even though I know it would help a lot.
>but if you thought this was fun by itself, I have bad news.Normally I write chapters about 1-2k words long with a tighter loop of conflict - resolve conflict - twist that opens new conflict, but for this side story content I'm just letting loose on the pacing and letting the story breathe more. I'm expecting it to read a lot better in the ebook when it's not serialized and it's just all there for the reader to consume at will.
>>24472457Bruh, you made me look. Fine, I'll tighten up the punctuation. I'm a huge fan of the oxford comma so yeah I have no real excuse, just didn't want to use a colon there.
>>24472468>beth giggled elegantlythe problem is not the sound, it's the imagery. elegant giggling isn't a thing, it can't be visualized, it sounds super weird. very jarring
Beth tittered would've been magnitudes better
>it's so sleazy to do review trades, even though I know it would help a lot.this is some retarded shit failures peddle. IT DOES NOT MATTER. god i hate this myth, stop taking advice from the failed retards on the royalroad forums. get advice from successful authors, who will not tell you to do this shit lmao
>the sceneslow scenes are fine, connective tissue is needed in any story, but it did make for a poor example in this case because I felt pretty bored by the content
Anyway I want to reiterate that your flow is pretty solid. But I think you need to work on better prose (lexical diversity and more interesting imagery) unless you're fine with slumming it with the true slop, though
Dialogue was decent, felt realistic
>>24472468I didn't answer your question, oops
Just google dialogue formatting man, you can figure it out. You end dialogue with periods where commas should be. Do you not read novels?
>>24472471>I'm a huge fan of the oxford commavery well, you are forgiven. go, and sin no more
>there are beta readers lurking
what do you think? snippet from something I'm playing with
https://rentry.co/67muc33b
>>24472481>Dialogue was decent, felt realisticThat's flattering, thanks. I worry about dialogue and unique voices sometimes.
>but it did make for a poor example in this case because I felt pretty bored by the contentUnderstandable.
>IT DOES NOT MATTERBut I cannot stop myself from caring about that fiction rank number! That said staying the course has seen steady and accelerating (if slowly) growth so I'm content to finish this story and take lessons learned into the next one.
>elegant giggling isn't a thing, it can't be visualizedI feel like any elegant 'ojousama' character giggles elegantly when they're not going all out with an ohoho laugh, but I can't be assed to find examples. I'll see how I feel in the morning and I'll reconsider changing it to tittered and just trust my audience to use context and google to figure out what the hell I meant.
Thanks for the feedback!
>>24472496>https://rentry.co/67muc33bi am quite liking it so far but think the dialogue would improve by tightening
>“Because everyone else is dead, or as good as. Me, also, soon. Hush now; be strong.” Kozlowsky took her firmly by the shoulders, for Elizabeth had tottered on her fashionable heels in shock. “The Gestapo took them all this afternoon. They are looking for me also, and they will get me eventually.” For an instant, Koslowky smiled, a sad, tired, Polish smile. “There are no more safe houses, I’m finished. You have papers, you are the only one who can get clear. Go now! Do not stop to pack! I will draw them away as far from here as I can.”to
>“Because everyone else is dead, or as good as. Me, also, soon. Hush now; be strong.” Kozlowsky took her firmly by the shoulders, for Elizabeth had tottered on her fashionable heels in shock. “The Gestapo took them all this afternoon. They will get me, too.” Koslowky smiled, a sad, tired, Polish smile. “There are no more safe houses, I’m finished. You have papers. Go now! Do not stop to pack! I will draw them away.”Take note of how much I removed—and I think it improved the dialogue significantly. Amateurs overwrite! Less is more, brevity is the soul of wit, insert other platitudes that exist for a reason
I like your prose. Would make tweaks here and there but any author would. Only issue was with that big dialogue dump that works much better when trimmed.
Pretty decent anon
>>24472484Ah, yeah, looking back I can see I'm inconsistent on that. I'll pay more attention to it going forward, and I'll try to catch everything from before now during the final epub proofread and editing.
49rank_1
md5: ba0e097e28e8bd3c02258bf1159fb6a3
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>>24472502>But I cannot stop myself from caring about that fiction rank number!picrel, old obviously, wont dox myself. i understand the addiction. please trust me when i say review swap circlejerks are only for total failures. the fact you believed it would "help a lot" means you're taking advice from the wrong places. go find advice from people who actually have some success
>I feel like any elegant 'ojousama' character giggles elegantly when they're not going all out with an ohoho laugh, but I can't be assed to find examples. Giggling is quite literally defined as a "silly" laugh, uncontrolled, etc. It's like saying "She sprinted slowly down the alleyway" or some shit, it sounds ridiculous. To me at least. Giggles cannot be elegant.
>Beth covered her mouth and laughed quietly, eyes sparkling.is how I would (first draft) write that idea. implies an elegant, controlled laugh that isn't raucous/true laughter
>>24472510Thanks, appreciate the feedback
>>24472393I've gone through some "how I work" adjustments, trying to hone my "best practice" for myself as best I can manage. I managed to learn to do a little proofing on every chapter, not when I'm done with the rough draft. Seems to cut down on the number of start to finish proof passes needed somewhat.
>
A word about, thinking you;r doig just brilliant. Uhm, I try to hold two ideakls in my mind. One? Inside, I try to believe that I'm "almost a genius". Not, a genius... but dang it, I' just missed it, dag nab it.
>
Now... clearly, I'm just *not*.
But that "ego", inside? Feels good. Allow me to work. Gives me a little self confidence, to get started. But, I keep that shit a military secret. Because... I have to do and act, with great self deprecation, great humility, etc. Its kind of a healthy schizo situation, I impress onto everything. If I catch myself being too... sounding like that. I try to adjust it. You NED the ego, its just people seem to forget to try to cultivate that calm, samurai style, forced humility. I think the ego and the humility both have to be there, to really have a chance,
https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/84799/archetype-slowburn-superhero-progression
Reached 1k pages today for the publicaly released chapters of my fiction.
Overall I feel like things are going well enough to keep pushing forward with the series. On my Patreon I'm less than 10 chapters max from finishing up the second volume (then will be starting volume 3).
I've also got an audiobook (read by ai) over on Hogfell's channel that's got most of the book in audio format.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbfRcdOhFtw&list=PLbjLf9_7grbkKp7dVqLd3ARckFTl_dVjd&index=1&ab_channel=hogfell
>>24472272>>>24466579>Nah I get teary eyed writing my story all the time (emotional moments for characters mainly, not so much the torture I put my MC through). However I'm my own #1 fan unironically; I really really like what I write. I'll re-read what I wrote yesterday for an editing pass before I start writing in the morning, and I get sad when I reach the end and remember I have to keep writing the story to read more.>
I would only admit online like this? never to friends and acquaintances. Its possible, for me to feel like I'm going to cry when I hit "that part" of my crime noir. I'm not a faggy guy, and... I figure that means the sad little tragedy component? Must have *some* kind of emotional impact. I hope so, anyways. I know the sad part comes, after a bazillion prooding reading passes. But I still get that twinge. Yeah, a couple beers while doing a late proof pass (less work, more just reading) and I have gotten wet eyes. I don;t bawl or sniffle, but... I wipe my eyes and have to blow my nose.
>
kind of freaked me out the first couple times. I'm not emotional at all like that.
>>24472523>>Beth covered her mouth and laughed quietly, eyes sparkling.Yeah I'd definitely say that's better imagery than I had, but it's wordier than I'd like for my story. I think I just need to do some writing exercises to get in the habit of using more vivid imagery.
>numberImpressive, very nice. So the secret is just "write good," huh? I see.
>>24472528I think everyone will find a workflow that works best for them, but I find that as long as I enjoy reading what I write, I'll win because there's more of what I like in the world and I can enjoy reading it later.
I know I'm in trouble when I go back and read something and I find it boring or don't like it. And I've definitely had stories in the past where I hit that point and had to stop writing.
>>24472554>but it's wordier than I'd like for my story.I consider my style pretty spartan and clean. I think too many anons take "modern prose is digestible" to mean "write at a first grade level" when that is ... not the play. Your prose is simply too plain and undescriptive (imo)
>the secret is just write goodalways has been, kek
>>24472549I probably have a bunch of unresolved trauma, and the story focuses on a lot of tragedy so those parts hit harder even re-reading them for the third or fourth time. As for admitting it IRL, I dunno, I'm a 3X year old boomer at this point I'm kind of over caring what people think. I don't expect anyone I know IRL to read the book even if I give them a free copy (already seen my brother write a book and to date I'm the only one of our family to have read the book; he took it really hard so I lowered my expectations a lot).
>>24472212>for me; one of the biggest things about mary sue's is the protag seemingly never being wrong, everyone has their back, unearned adoration of the cast, ect.Shit.
I never analyzed my manuscripts for this. I mean, I know the MC has to have short comings and faults. But not every book has the MC not getting along with another character. The one I'm on now, I thought it was enough that he's doing that "legwork, but mainly spinning wheels" thing, like any gumshoe. Before shit gets ugly then explodes. Does that sound less than perfect enough, or should one person not get along with him, and that's some some kind of required element. I ask, in case that's some kind of shine or polish I wouldn't know about, until now.
>>24472617Keep in mind that anon is shitting on one of the most popular web serials in existence, a literal og, so his critiques of its "faults" are worth analyzing carefully
>>24471116>>>24471109> it's 4chanIt takes "some amount of time here" to separate real critique from... honestly, you hear all kinds of snark. And even then, some time its your bet guess. Yet? I will say this. One anon (that I bickered with, I admit it) he was later I decided objectively right (his words, not mine) and I was grumbling to myself, when it worked well. So, just because you;re getting heavy snark that sounds like a demoralization shill? That one, wasn't. Fore-chan's system, to tel a family secret? Might just be a few degrees off center from... optimum. (shh. don;tt ttell anyone, I don;t think anyone knows)
KEKpatient voices are the opposite. Usually its good advice or they are tryig? ANd, some will use THAT, for way to fuck you. SO there; that.
>
Its a fun system.
>>24470957>>>24470944>Which is VERY gay. I would never fellate a guy. Only women.actually, if memory serves. One FELLATEs a man, and when its performed on a woman, its CUNNILINGUS now . Wait, this is 4chins... fellating a woman would mean... forget I brought it up.
>>24472617>or should one person not get along with him, and that's some some kind of required elementOf course it's not a required element. Who didn't like Odysseus? Who didn't like Dante (who wasn't in Hell)?
Having an antagonist or rival for your MC is okay but don't shoehorn it in just to put a check in the box.
>>24472617A mary sue is a character that is perfect or faultless, everyone liking them is just one characteristic.
There are likeable people IRL that gets along with everyone, so I wouldn't say that's unrealistic, the problem is when everyone else gets downgraded so that the mary sue appears has better than everyone.
Also, keep in mind that "Mary sue" isn't just for a female character, contrary to what some mouthbreathers say, any gender can be a mary sue.
>>24472637futa content is kino
>>24472637That reminds me, haven't seen the guy that was writing his futa smut novel in a long time
>>24472664>any gender can be a mary sue.People generally call the males "gary sue".
>>24472685I thought it was "Gary Stu", but that wasn't the point anyway. I meant to say that some excuse bad characters by accusing people of misogyny.
>>24472452>>Beth giggled elegantly>really jarred me though, made me come type this out>
Hmm. Grade me?
Beth's delicate back took an ever so slight arch, an almost elegant though near imperceptible convulsion that preceded the issuance of a stream of staccato bell-like and almost musical titters.
>>24472703Anon I'm stealing that and I'm not sorry.
>>24472703>Beth's delicate back took an ever so slight arch, an almost elegant though near imperceptible convulsion that preceded the issuance of a stream of staccato bell-like and almost musical titters.Reads very purple to me, and is exactly what I meant by my own style is spartan. You're one end of the extreme, and other anon is the other. This doesn't belong in digestible slop
Not saying it's bad btw (though it doesn't fit my preferences)
>Beth gave an elegant titter.
Done.
Now move on.
>>24472726>an elegant titterpretty poor imagery imo, but it's serviceable for the sloppiest of slop. missing the point of the discussion i think
>Beth's tits jiggled like jello as she tittered elegantly, "teehee."
>>24472554>I know I'm in trouble when I go back and read something and I find it boring or don't like it. And I've definitely had stories in the past where I hit that point and had to stop writing.Oh, yeah.
I call it... "losing it". I abandoned, well, *all* of my first so many full size and bigger attempts. Just, no zip yet. I finished big things, but half way through? Ugh. What I did, was I learned to have premise, opening, and what the final... whatever is. It gave me parameters. My present project, is I want a modern pharmacy 10 cent gumshoe pulp noir paperback. 80k word initial target. With (basic) premise, start and end in mind. I went with the little errand that turns into... oh shit direction. I get to do the classic not even knowing whats coming, with the also classic spinning wheels no traction normal thing. I'm somewhere 40-50k words now. Pull the trigger, its dawning on the MC this might not be the routine errand after all. He'll be reacting to that... when it goes all "oh shit". A classic man vs man le epic fight showdown at the end? I know I'm going there, its a classic.
This minimalistic structure, as an outline in this ral life case? Is several sentence fragments, outling the what little is needed for the first haf of the tory. The change from mundane to oh shit, and the final conflict will end it. The trailing bit after the big conflict, I think of as "coda"... or, the bit of music that is there in classical works, though the sonata proper has concluded. The bare structure, allows me to pants a chapter at a time. be creative on the fly. But the thin structure seems to prevent the *ugh* now. I don;t know *why*, but experimenting with a forced/basic premise then imposing this several sentence fragment non-outline and the start middle end control points, just seemed to work. h ongoing characters across many works though, has the MC and cast very real to me. For this work, I made the command decision to try to eliminate sexual acts, but to drizzle a constant tension with a male and female main characters, that never goes anywhere explicitly. Why? Trying it.
>
I thought a mary sue, was just a "too perfect" MC hero. It sounds like its more than that, so now I need to go read that. Another gold star, I hope. I don;t know how many stars I need to collect now to hit the bottom of where I need to start, but... has to happen eventually. Th detailed traditiona l outline wasn't working for me, and the all-pants method was better but certainly not working. Was how I hit upon the skeleton and sentence fragments thing.
>>24472625>>>24472617 (You)>Keep in mind that anon is shitting on one of the most popular web serials in existence, a literal og, so his critiques of its "faults" are worth analyzing carefullyformal logic dictates to me, the following notion. If this type of fault can be leveled at any fiction prose? I want to try to level it at my own work.Whether said critique is real or facetious in its present case? Logically meaningless to me.
>>24472640>Having an antagonist or rival for your MC is okay but don't shoehorn it in just to put a check in the box.for my present work? I went with "man vs bad winter storm" for an antagonist, and the normal antagonist character.
>
I think at my early stage, trying to do without antagonist force of some kind would be handicapping myself.
>>24472664>the problem is when everyone else gets downgraded so that the mary sue appears has better than everyone.My own personal nitpick, those wonder woman in designer everything FBI agents. Ok, cool. I avoided that trope as best I could, that character annoyed me before I tried to start to write, lol. And yeah, my first and second books I tried to make? Both male superheros. It was too juvenile.
>
Thanks! (check mark, another achievement unlocked. how many of these do I need)
>>24472746>>Beth's tits jiggled like jello as she tittered elegantly, "teehee.">>>> >>24472739> Publishable.Its actually? A short and succinct sincere insinuation... that girls do that in real life! (I'm not perfect at forced alliteration)
>>24472788>Its actually?No, anon, it was a joke on both of our parts
>>24472707(Outer Liits TV show voice)
Now... imagine, if you will. A dimension...
where the anon that can write that sentence you liked? Put that to use. For an over the top, shameless, in your face, explicit no apologies lengthy erotic scene. I mean, go big or go home.
>
I'd want... "graded" on the attempt, I guess. I'm curious where I stand, versus traditional smut-slop.
is it just me or are Thundamoo’s WNs the equivalent of chinkslop shuangwen but for rainbow people?
>>24473015Shuangwhat?
>Shuangwen (爽文): similar meaning to YY, shuangwen uses Shuang the character for cool/relaxed/satisfied (爽) to describe a literary work. It's a derogatory term, and it basically means the protagonist has it really easy throughout the text, and it's meant to make the reader feel 'shuang'.Dunno, I don't know much about them, other than their writing gave me the impression of them being the bluesky type, but I found the magical girl novel to be rather distressing, didn't even tried to read other works.
>>24473080i probably should’ve just said her work has chinese characteristics, since all the villains are usually men, and that people who annoy the MC are viciously punished by the plot.
Rewriting my main outline after finishing the short story is just so refreshing. I might be able to finish it by the end of the week if I'm lucky and work on the restarted draft.
>>24472728>it's serviceable for the sloppiest of slop>Varys tittered nervously.is actually used twice;
>The eunuch twittered.once
dialogue tags don't need to be so damn complicated
>>24473240short descriptions like X tittered or X tittered nervously are fine
>Beth gave an elegant titter.is bad because it 1 is overly clunk with the 'gave a' construction, and 2 is a weird combination (elegant titter is still weird imagery to me, tittering is not something that has a clear 'elegant' visual, it almost seems contradictory)
rly feels like almost all of you are missing the point
>dialogue tags don't need to be so damn complicatedthese aren't tags, tags attribute dialogue. these are action beats
>>24473586>these aren't tags, tags attribute dialogue. these are action beatsthey're often combined, for brevity, conciseness and variety, so the formula isn't always
>"Dialogue," Beth said, with an elegant titter.>1 is overly clunk with the 'gave a' construction"gave a" is a common construction in literature
it's especially useful to signal a premeditated or performative act
>elegant titter is still weird imagery to me, tittering is not something that has a clear 'elegant' visual, it almost seems contradictorythat is precisely why it is important to emphasise it.
adverbs do have their place in English, and they are particularly useful in modifying shades of meaning; a yawn for example can be tired, bored, complacent, scornful, and yes, elegant
a person who says an action "must" be, or "cannot possibly" be, elegant, or gauche, or crass, or humdrum has not walked the highways and byways of life, and seen the vast complexity of emotions and behaviours the human race has to offer
>>24473616>a person who says an action "must" be, or "cannot possibly" be, elegant, or gauche, or crass, or humdrum has not walked the highways and byways of life, and seen the vast complexity of emotions and behaviours the human race has to offer:/
you people can do whatever you want, but if you type some shit like "she sprinted slowly" people will side eye you
i gave my feedback, take it if you want
>>24473616>scornful yawnthis is a joke right
>>24473619>if you type some shit like "she sprinted slowly" people will side eye yousome behaviours are more emphatic and have less nuance than others
perhaps it might surprise you to know that one can cry and sob in despair, or in fear, or with joy, or with love, or with anger
what sounds ludicrous on paper, with a dictionary, will be understood by those who know what emotions and behaviours are being described
>i gave my feedback, take it if you wantand more than one person has given you their feedback on that
take it if you want
>>24473629oh no
actually a climactic scene by Kipling
twice in fact, come to think of it
>>24473634>oh no>actually a climactic scene by Kipling>twice in fact, come to think of ityou're telling me he wrote
>X yawned scornfullyas a normal action beat without surrounding explanations and imagery? like what the context of this conversation is? bc this wasn't something anon set up, he just tossed out "giggled elegantly" which reads as ridiculous
i'm giggling elegantly at this exchange
>>24473637You're moving goalposts now.
First you claimed that such an action is oxymoronic and totally impossible.
>It isn't a thingyou said
>Giggles cannot be elegantyou said
Now you're altering your position to concede that it can be a thing, with the proviso that it should be accompanied by explanations and imagery.
That was not what you've been moaning about all thread long.
Unless, that is, you're going to assert equally that one actually CAN
>sprint slowlyprovided it has
>surrounding explanations and imageryKipling did indeed write a paragraph depicting a character yawning with calculated scorn. He described the action in more detail, of course, because it was a climactic scene, and unlike many tyros Kipling didn't write
>"Dialogue," he adverbed adjectively.But the point is unlike
>sprinting slowlya scornful yawn is, indeed, A Thing.
What are some decent web novels to start with?
>>24473658>First you claimed that such an action is oxymoronic and totally impossible.more like you dragged the conversation away from practical advice about a specific excerpt into finding weird counter-examples. yes, this is art, you can get away with a lot, but "don't randomly throw out weird adverb combinations like giggled elegantly" is good advice.
i swear to god even when I give the most common sense suggestions people do everything they can to argue against it. like why man. why are you doing this. you people are so frustrating to talk to
>>24473661What do you like to read? Generally Worm (capeshit) and A Practical Guide to Evil (fantasy) are good starting points.
>>24473619>It was so hot. The house had caught fire a mere thirty minutes ago and now it was on the verge of collapse. And she was trapped in the farthest bedroom. I sprinted with agonizing slowness, but I wasn't going to make it.You can still pair verbs and adverbs with antithetical meanings for a variety of reasons: exaggeration, create tension, etc.
>>24473667>you dragged the conversation away from practical advice about a specific excerpt into finding weird counter-examplesyou asked, I answered
I dragged nothing nowhere
>"don't randomly throw out weird adverb combinations like giggled elegantly" is good adviceit is
"giggled elegantly" is not "weird" however
I do think it is clunky and, out of sheer overuse,
>adverbed adjectivelyshould be avoided in this day and age
but it is not an oxymoronic action as you claimed
>whybecause your "common" sense isn't quite as sensible as you thought
>>24473674Usually I stick to comedies or black library works, I kinda want to get a feel for the scene more than anything else so I'll definitely give both of those a chance atleast, thank you!
what webnovel has the hottest rape scenes
>>24473674Any decent cultivation/wuxia stories? I kinda wanted to check what those are all about
>>24473683>"giggled elegantly" is not "weird" howeverit very much is. but it's a matter of opinion, fine, whatever
this conversation is exhausting. im not arguing further
i swear every time i try to help people they do everything they can to double down and convince me why actually, their writing is perfect and nothing needs to change. the egos here are so weird for the total lack of success
>>24473637>bc this wasn't something anon set upThere is set up but I warn you the payoff is (spoiler)Beth is slightly higher class than almost everyone in the Adventurer's Guild(/spoiler) and the Adventurer's Guild's Headmaster is actually a noble himself, which is not a secret to anyone but the reader and MC and an actual spoiler (btw check out my patreon or buy the book-- only way to read this part of the story the Headmaster has a direct line to the King to resolve the external conflict/climax of the volume (which the MC cannot resolve herself with violence because of the class system), the resolution of which pushes the MC over the edge to resolve an internal conflict which allows the plot to move forward.
For the record, Beth was introduced right before the sample started, and the setup consists of
>everyone treats her with much more respect than everyone else gets>she wears finer clothes than everyone elseand then in the sample
>she is better educated than the main character>she is shown to be able to tell time which the main character is notSo overall it's very minor and easy to change which is why I took your feedback seriously and gave it a lot of thought. Don't worry about anons being contrarian: it's the spice of life of 4chan.
>>24473706Not a web novel, but an excellent starting point is Cradle (book 1, Unsouled). It's written in English, not translated. Personally I can't read translation slop, the prose is too painful
>>24473713>So overall it's very minor and easy to change which is why I took your feedback seriously and gave it a lot of thought. Don't worry about anons being contrarian: it's the spice of life of 4chan.Glad to hear, it wasn't supposed to turn into some huge discussion, I was just giving feedback on a turn of phrase I found odd, then generalized to: when the combination is weird, take slightly more words to paint a picture. But then all of that nonsense above happened
>>24473702It's a bit outside of the scope of webnovels but I read Fourth Wing by Yarros last weekend, one of those smut fantasies women like, and my god I had an emotional crisis over it. Is that what women think romance is like? And am I even capable of having feelings that strong (no, I'm not, I'm on the spectrum)? Then I realized that that's what people mean when they talk about the unrealistic expectations of porn so I'm a little more sympathetic to such arguments.
To answer your question it's NSFW:
SISSEKAI
https://archiveofourown.org/works/44275453
It's one of the best webnovels period, the writing is really good.
>>24473729>then generalized to: when the combination is weird, take slightly more words to paint a picture.Frankly that's the advice I found most useful, because I really don't do a great job of description or imagery, and I need to add at least SOME more of that rather than just coasting on dialogue and plot advancement. So like I said above sometime this week I'm going to look up some writing exercises about imagery or just read a bunch of poetry with good imagery language, and then I'm going to steal that.
>>24473730>https://archiveofourown.org/works/44275453
>>24473725I'll make sure to check it out, thanks.
>>24473729>when the combination is weird, take slightly more words to paint a picture. But then all of that nonsense above happenedcomplete and utter bullshit
>>24472481>elegant giggling isn't a thing, it can't be visualized>>24472523>It's like saying "She sprinted slowly down the alleyway" or some shit, it sounds ridiculous.You didn't say that anon ought to spend more words describing the action, you outright told anon that
>>24472523>Giggles cannot be elegant.
>>24473742(You)
Now go away
>>24473725What are your particular favorites?
>>24473767Of any web novel?
>>24473778Yeah overall, just curious but id appreciate if you could order them. Thanks for the recommendations so far
>>24473782Peak fiction: A Practical Guide to Evil, Worm, Katalepsis, Wandering Inn
Great: Mother of Learning, Years of the Apocalypse, A Practical Guide to Sorcery, This Used To Be About Dungeons, Worth the Candle, others probably
Good: Eh, not worth filling out
I def forgot a few
Each entry has some caveats. If you're new to web novels, know the pacing can be wonky. They're released serially and don't get developmental edits b/c of that. You read web novels for having something beefy to work through & really get to know the world and characters. It's a different vibe than published novels
That said I consider the stuff in my peak tier as good as my favorites of published fiction
Read either Worm or APGTE if you're starting out. Katalepsis is lesbian cosmic horror, and Wandering Inn is...hard to recommend, even if it's amazing
>>24473791Ah, I knew I forgot one: Dungeon Crawler Carl in the peak tier (listen to the audiobook, narration elevates it). It's technically a trad pubbed novel now but it did start as a serial
>>24473791wow yeah that's exactly what I've been looking for, longrunning stuff where we get to actually know the characters/world. Thanks a lot bro!
Alexander Wales is interesting in the sense his works are fascinating and I find myself thinking about them years later, but as far as enjoyment went they're only "good to great", not a favorite
>>24473791>>24473794I've always wondered who reads this crap. Since you seem to, can you explain in more detail what do you find good in these stories? I've tried several of the listed and didn't really find them well written or interesting.
>>24473904What are your favorites? or atleast ones you find interesting.
>>24473923I couldn't finish even one full chapter of the ones mentioned. Of all the fictions I've tried, the furthest I read were Mine Lord, Necromancer Unmanned, Metaworld Chronicles, and Accidental War Mage, but gave up on those too 30-50 chapters in, or else they were dropped by the author.
But I'm not asking for recommendations, just your personal impressions. I'm not going to argue about it either, whatever you say.
>>24473904>can you explain in more detail what do you find good in these stories?The length, first and foremost. I read published fiction too but a trilogy disappears in a few days. I've quite frankly run out of fantasy fiction that interests me in the published space. I also really dislike how I get attached to characters and then have to leave them after 3 tiny 200k word books. 3 million word serials don't have that issue
>you found them poorly writtenDo you mean prose wise? Explain what you mean and I can comment, but "poorly written" means way too many different things. I think the ~stories~ are phenomenal
Are you a fantasy reader? Which published books are your favorite then? I can see why you'd hate serials if you only read stuff like Tolkien and not pulpier "entertainment" reads like Sanderson
>>24473946>Metaworld ChroniclesKind funny you liked this one more than the others, because I've read this too and it wouldn't even go in my "great" tier. It was...alright, and I eventually dropped it because I lost interest
>>24473954You ever read gotrek & felix?
>>24473966Well, I'm not sure I'd say I liked it very much since I only made through around 7-8 chapters. It was just memorable because it was one of the first I picked up and I drop most on the first paragraph
>>24473973I see
Out of my own curiosity, could you answer:
>Are you a fantasy reader? Which published books are your favorite then? I can see why you'd hate serials if you only read stuff like Tolkien
>>24473971I haven't, but I'll take a look at it later. Don't really engage with WH40k stuff, though I know the basic lore. I don't like the super-grimdark premise
>>24473982Its the fantasy verse so not really grimdark but it's not that far really, dark fantasy in an early modern period. G&F is pretty long running and it's extended even through the new setting so if you grow to like gotrek there's a lot of him to read through.
do you think readers of WNs would vibe with an orthodox jewish MC basically experiencing a mix of religious ecstasy and a crisis of belief after getting isekai’d to a LITRPG world and believing that the quest system is God talking to him?
>>24473954>The length, first and foremost.I guess I can understand that, though this is one big reason why I don't stick with a work. I hate stories that don't respect my time, can't get to the point, and go off on a tangent. Even most 200k word books are full of completely pointless fluff that has no business being there.
>Explain what you mean and I can comment, but "poorly written" means way too many different things.Naturally, and I don't use it to mean any one specific thing either. It all depends on the work in question. Generic, meandering prose is only one part of it. There's the surface level of being often repetitive, unclear, erroneous, and self-contradictory, and the there's the deeper level of being heavily derivative, clumsily arranged and paced as a narrative, lacking causation, lacking goals, and having unlikeable, paper-thin characters. Some works may be competently written and without technical errors, but I just find the cast and the author's voice repulsive.
>Are you a fantasy reader?Difficult question. I do read fantasy and some of my favorite works are fantasy. At the same time, I think 99% of the works in the genre are garbage. Then again, 99% of everything is garbage, it's not a phenomenon exclusive to fantasy.
>>24474004Comes down to taste, like everything. I just find them fun. Sounds like you're looking for something a little deeper when you read
>>24474014>Sounds like you're looking for something a little deeper when you readThat's not even the case. I can blast through 10 volumes of a light novel series over a day or two and have fun, though it's definitely not high art. But asian authors understand the sale point of their story (they actually decide on one!) and when they hit it, they really knock it out of the ball bark. They know how to hook you and walk that narrow road of telling just barely enough to set the scene without growing dull and losing momentum.
Then I pick up some western WN and it's paragraph after paragraph about mud on shoes, the wonder of windows on walls, the smell of shit and piss, and who was the king of dhangajistan.
>I just find them fun.I was hoping you'd think about it a little more than that, but I guess if you were capable of such we wouldn't have this conversation.
>>24474044You're really not being clear about what you want, or even what you like in a piece of fiction. If you can't be clear about that, you could at least list some specific things you do like so we can approximate what you're looking for.
>Then I pick up some western WN and it's paragraph after paragraph about mud on shoes, the wonder of windows on walls, the smell of shit and piss, and who was the king of dhangajistan.Oh you mean like Tolkein? You could have just said "I don't like excessive description."
>But asian authors understand the sale point of their story (they actually decide on one!) and when they hit it, they really knock it out of the ball bark. They know how to hook you and walk that narrow road of telling just barely enough to set the scene without growing dull and losing momentum.There are a ton of Japanese Light Novels that are adapted from meandering web novels, in a bunch of different genres. Are you talking about SAO, Bookworm, Mushoku Tensei, Haibara’s Teenage New Game+, what? Then there's also the books that started as LN, like Haruhi Suzumiya or Spice and Wolf or Accel World.
Do you want interesting characters, a compelling conflict, a fast-paced plot, what? Don't just come in, look at a list of recommendations, and then call it all shit and ask what's good about it when you read one chapter and won't be specific about why you dropped at the first chapter.
>>24474044>I was hoping you'd think about it a little more than that, but I guess if you were capable of such we wouldn't have this conversation.I didn't realize you wanted some elaborate answer, that last post was me just shrugging my shoulders
Now that you've revealed yourself as a little bitch though, obv im not responding seriously
btw idk how you read light novels, i find them miserable and horribly written. crazy you're taking some weird high ground when you read those
>>24473730huh? so archiveofourown does allow for original content? I thought it was just fanfic only. Is it worth throwing my original fics on there?
>>24474328>Is it worth throwing my original fics on there?It's unlikely to get many readers, but maybe a few. No reason not to, I suppose
Stats
md5: 6b9e404deda75603fae331b42dadf05b
🔍
Toying with the idea of a LitRPG, pirate-elder god story, MC gets his life saved at the cost of having to serve an eldritch octopus, his stats and xp get reset to baseline because of a class change.
Is this enough to start with, or does it need more? Charisma and wisdom seemed too artificial for me.
>>24474333I advise against HP/Mana/Stamina stats. Even XP is best described abstractly.
>>24474363>HP/Mana/Stamina statsI just thought that it looked too little to include as I never wrote anything with stats before.
>Even XP is best described abstractly.Hmm, wonder how to write this one, my first thought was having the gods/universe/whatever reward directly the stats by giving buffs, so everyone started human level (0-10) and you got stronger by doing impressive stuff, shooting past what's humanly possible.
>>24474368>I just thought that it looked too little to include as I never wrote anything with stats before.Go see how other stories (new-ish and popular ones, don't follow old trends) do it
>>24474370Will check, thanks, I'm just not big into the LitRPG stuff beyond some light novels I read way back, so I usually speed read them.
>>24474328>>24474330>AO3 original contentYes in fact it does. I found this out yesterday when browsing the "Worldbuilding Exchange" annual write-a-thon they've been doing. It's mostly fanfix but they did have some original work there.
It makes some sense inasmuch as the name of the site is "archive of our own", not restricted to fanfiction like that spamfest ff.net is.
To get your original work noticed on AO3 however, you'd probably need to be really good on your tag game. Also you'd need to make friends so that the kudo and review numbers etch up.
>>24474378>Also you'd need to make friends so that the kudo and review numbers etch up.there are no reviews and making friends to get a single kudos from each is silly, that will barely have an effect
most ao3 traffic is via tags as you said, and specifically the recent updates. if you get VERY popular you'll get caught in the sort-by-kudos and sort-by-bookmarks pages, but you have to have already "made it"
>>24474378>. Also you'd need to make friends so that the kudo and review numbers etch uprip, no-go for me, even just seeing the review cabal on ink discord makes me sick to my core
By the way, we need to talk about how fanfiction.net sucks for getting anyone actually to read your story. When I posted mine (scroll up) I got seven messages.
All female.
Five of the seven were shilling their mad skillz on art design, as if my 923 page short that I dashed off in a morning needed any. Two others had "questions" - one of them was an artist too (found her on deviantart). The last one with "questions" probably hasn't read the story either and I'm expecting her to come back with another commission request.
Add to that, that the interface is still 1999-fabulous such that it's difficult even to figure out what to do on it.
I'd switch to Ao3 (I didn't want to, I don't write smut) but Ao3 has a week long backlog of requests to get in. I suspect that's because they get spammers too.
>>24474572page>word. It was 923 words.
>>24474572fanfiction.net is a dead website
>>24474333My opinion is that, when creating a system, don't add stats that aren't going to have at least one prominent moment in your story. Don't add wisdom if you're not going to have a character with high wisdom who uses it in an interesting way as part of the plot.
Intelligence as a stat is tricky, because writing characters of varying intelligence is hard. My system has intelligence as a stat, but the stats are incredibly vague and I refuse to define them for readers or the characters in the world. Effectively, it makes characters have better memory and capacity to handle more complex magic, but it doesn't make them more intelligent in the colloquial way (ie, they can still make dumb decisions despite having high INT).
More important than your system, whatever it winds up being because the purpose of it is to serve the story, is that your story and writing is good.
Shouldn't we make a new thread already?
New thread, also, sorry in advance if someone is baking these and I skipped the line.
>>24474794>>24474794>>24474794