>literally obliterates every civilization that adopts it in less than 300 years
Damn, is adopting enlightenment ideals the biggest self-own in human history?

Elaborate.
What are the enlightenment ideals? Fuck the church?

>>24478871
And the crown. But most of all, fuck (you).

>>24478814 (OP)
Odd claim since most adopters are still present and the most successful civilizations on the planet. Whereas the ones in direct opposition turned out to be or become shitholes.
Feel free to elaborate on whatever christcuck alt history bullshit this thread is about but I’m more inclined to talk about Gottlieb’s books which sucked. Given the space he’s got in the series you’re still given the most barebones of philosophical history with a big scoop of opinionated rants, while he cuts out half the history to make some handwavy point about a red thread in history.

>>24478814 (OP)
Interesting, I will search for the book in the usual scource.
>>24478871
According to Kant, it is to start thinking for yourself.

>>24478934
So, growth of individualism and anti-herd mentality?

>>24478939
>So, growth of individualism and anti-herd mentality?

In the German orginal, it states:
"Aufklärung ist der Ausgang des Menschen aus seiner selbstverschuldeten Unmündigkeit".
I make the fruitless attempt to translate this phrase into English by myself:
>Enlightenment is the exit of the human out of his self-inflicted Immaturity

The immaturity is self-inflicted because it does not stem from a natural cause, such as organic stupidity. It's just that the individuals feels obligated to not use it's own intellect and follow some authorities, like churches, states etc.

I you want, I could try to translate the Kantian essay as a whole for this website or on another one. If you know one that allow for copyright-free texts...

I got this a month ago and his thesis was the Enlightenment was basically a philosophy of comfort, in which someone like Alasdair McIntyre claimed was the error of modern ethics, being based around selfish notions of personal sentiment. Robertson sees this as a good thing, to which McIntyre (RIP and PBUH) would object.

>THERE ARE FEW AVOWED LEIBNIZIANS, LOCKEANS OR HOBBISTS TODAY. Self-styled Spinozists and Cartesians are also rare. But there seem to be plenty of Humeans.
Anthony Gottlieb, "dd", Cap. 7, "A Treatise of Animal Nature",side 244.

I starts to like the writer.

The authors seems to stress the qualities of Hume a lot. Indeed, he was a early predeceensor of what he called today "naturalists". I still hold the opinion that Hume himself should be rather seen in the light of a sceptical tradition.

I remember read in my younger years a writer who encourage with a silend sceptical tradition, perhaps it has been Nadler or Ungar or some other.
I believe Hume has been introduce to skeptical thinking by his lectures and has entertain discussions on the subjects during his time in France.

>>24478988
There should be more Leibnizians imo

Is it because I have started to see the destruction enlightenment has caused and thus pay more attention or are there truly a lot more people that have started to talk about this recently?

It must have been a weak-minded time that spurned their most gived sons with such infame disdain.
A time of consuming intolerance. Indeed, you will bearly found a instance of a religious person that has been killed for atheist reasons, with exception of the Sovjet union, maybe and, yet, you will see a lot of examples of intolerance from the religious crowd and authorities.

The old debatt about Hume and Dr. Johnson... to be said, I believe that I learned something... Nice!

I was not aware that Smith has been the subject of such tretement.

>>24479002
I believe, the fans of Gödel that use his quotes a lot are a kind of it.

>>24478871
Individualism
Secularism
Materialism
Anti-Nostalgia
March of Progress
Suspicion of religious dogma and an elevation of political dogma
Belief in education in secular matters granting power

>>24478814 (OP)
Uhh....it might be honestly
>>24478897
Yeah right. Every industrial state other than US collapsed into horrifying war and genocide right away last century, then became gimp slaves to the US, which was an emphatically Christian country with laws based in theology. Then it stripped that away to become more Enlightenment oriented, and now its a falling apart.

>>24478871
they actually thought
>all human beings are fundamentally good

>>24479811
All human beings have the capacity for good and all are vessels that hold information, all seek the truth of all things. The truth is knowledge, peace as well as the best and most positive outcome for all humans and life. It's that simple. They don't realize it and get caught in their addictions as well as make excuses in their mind blurring the truth, but hopefully one day they will realize this.

>>24479786
bad
good
bad
good
good
good
good

>>24479831
How do you create a secular, collectivist and non-materialist society?

>>24479827
>All human beings have the capacity for good and all are vessels that hold information, all seek the truth of all things
"Good" in this frame job is a piece of violent propaganda. What you've written sounds like common sense to people for whom Being Good was a low bar.

The Enlightenment...."everyone could be just like me, and the reason they aren't is because I'm good and they're bad. But we all had equal opportunity. Oh, the slaves? I'll have to check what the philosophes thought."

>>24479844
This is a jump and complete nonsense. You will learn what I have told you someday, I pray you do. The real evil is misinformation.

>>24479839
*my bad, materialism should be 'good' too

>>24479791
> Every industrial state other than US collapsed into horrifying war and genocide right away last century, then became gimp slaves to the US, which was an emphatically Christian country
The quality of that backwoods education is astounding Billy-Bob. How’s your sister-wife Keyliegh doing? Must be hard carrying another Downs child at 14.

>>24479867
How do you create a secular, collectivist and materialist society?

>>24478987
The Enlightenment didn't even really invent anything new. It just replaced Jesus with Epicurus. But the same strains of resentment that caused the switch to Christianity still remain in people so this new secular-hedonist consensus has its own revolutions to counter it, refine it, reiterate it, etc via various ideologies, starting with Rousseau. And this project of reiteration continues to this day while the core of modernity is still pretty much just Epicurean.

>>24479896
well, the USSR made a fair shot at it, and China is at least aspirationally secular, collectivist, and materialist. should be somewhere in that orbit.

>>24479900
Were they truly materialist when they were all about leader worship, anti-capitalism and chasing some mythical utopia?

>>24479919
Everyone is chasing a mythical utopia. You can't blame the materialists for hoping for a better future. You can maybe blame them for the leader-worship.
Anti-capitalism is reactionary but it was/is in reaction to an active threat to national existence, I don't think you can call that non-materialist. Capitalism is real and those societies were/are founded on oppositional principles to it.

>>24478897
>Continually interfere in foreign countries to exploit their resources and control them
>”Heh, these stupid, superstitious dune coons and spear chuckers are poor because they believe in magic. Unlike us who believe in le science and based cuckold sex.”

>>24479862
Fair enough; fair enough. I may have leapt too quickly, and proved your point

>>24479896
>How do you create a secular, collectivist and materialist society?
Mass murder and starvation.

>>24479950
And look how the jewel shines, once the rough work is done!

>>24479956
>human life is worth less than abstractions on a graph
Proving the point that modernism is a cancer.

>>24479956
How do you define secularism? And, how do you define religion? China, from my point of view, seems hyper religious.

>>24479958
Don't get hysterical, now.

>>24479934
>Everyone is chasing a mythical utopia
Nope.

>>24479971
are you religious?

>>24479956
>believing stats from communists
Did you learn nothing from the fall of the USSR?

>>24479967
Okay, then I won’t. If we’re not going to appeal to emotions or the dignity of life since you’re too smart for that, then there is no reason to take your argument based on life expectancy seriously.

>>24479975
china has not fabricated its life expectancy statistics from the early 20th century to now, schizo

>>24479965
Secularism is state irreligion. Religion is reverence of unobservable supernatural powers.
I know Rank's and other definitions of religion are so broad that you can include any ideology or way of life in that umbra, but I don't agree with those sort of smug 'ackshually Marxism is a religion' type of assertions

>>24479982
Nice buzzword defense, CCP shill, only retards believe communists.

>>24480001
>you can only use MY statistics from MY enemy state that paint MY nation's enemies as brutal monsters with no respect for the dignity of life
>no, you can't use any of their data. they made it all up because they're evil
pedagogue

>>24479974
Nope.

>>24479956
This is a result of industrialization, NOT enlightenment secularism, any society could achieve this success with enough competence

>>24480009
That’s probably exactly what you believe.

>>24480009
Nice schizophrenic strawmen, retard. The corrupt communist party you worship literally violates their own laws on a daily basis, btw.

>>24479999
I wasn't familiar with ranks definition. I would designate, by my own definition, Marxism as a form of ideology, and all ideologies as religions.

>>24480022
That is a habit of leaders who are difficult to hold accountable. American politicians are equally guilty of this.

>>24480031
Yeah, but you won't find people white knighting and worshipping the American government, at least not as many as the communists who worship the communist party since that's what communism teaches, the worship of man and putting the communist party as the supreme moral authority in all matters of life. It's why they went around knocking down any religious symbol on religious buildings which were higher than the communist flag not that long ago.

>>24480024
Well, I disagree - maybe fundamentally, I don't know. What makes you think of ideology as religious? Would you define ideologies based on scientific materialism as religious?
Also, do you think of ideology as an inherently false way of knowing/interpreting the world? What's your definition of ideology?

>>24480046
>What makes you think of ideology as religious?
The subconscious digestion of myths, dogmatic rules as lawful constants, and the lack of awareness on the part of the adherents as to this all.
In China, there are myths...century of humiliation as an anchoring point of grievance, quasi Marxism as an economic philosophy, etc.
All nations have these, obviously. I just can't bring myself to take any of it seriously, other than when the adherents are threatening me somehow and I can't find a way to resist or reverse. But I can't pretend any of it "makes sense," even when it "works." In china's case, I agree that in some rather impressive ways, it has "worked."

>>24480045
>you won't find people white knighting and worshipping the American government
like hell you won't
I do not think most communists worship the communist party or believe the communist party is a/the supreme moral authority. I do not suffer under the delusion that the CCP is a moral authority or moral at all. I only object to the reduction of the Chinese revolution and China under Mao to 'mass murder and starvation'.
>It's why they went around knocking down any religious symbol on religious buildings which were higher than the communist flag not that long ago.
I think it's a mistake to say that irreligious people - including communist atheists - are 'putting themselves above god'. If you view religion as a false way of knowing, there's simply not a higher authority to submit themselves to. In adherence to the materialist principles of Marxism, it was rejected on its own premises and recognized as a coercive tool of institutional control.

>>24480054
What do you think a truly irreligious society looks like, then? Is that possible?

>>24480068
although i should clarify marx didn't lay out a universal ruleset to which communists should subscribe he just comprehensively understood labor and class dynamics and predicted a very european, very at-the-time contemporary hopeful vision of what kind of society would come out of the current conditions of an increasingly exploited and (surely) soon-to-be vengeful european working class. he didn't write about china really at all.

>>24480071
Probably not.
I'm very cynical about humanity. So, I don't have a better alternative. I just can't get all riled up about it like any of it is valid or different from other forms of organization. Humans develop hierarchies of domination, the donimus sets the collective interest, the mythos turns the collective interest into a Sacred story of destiny and self justification, and then it becomes Reality.
I just treat it like something that I have to be aware of, because it's always trying to call me. Such is life, seemingly always has been this way.

>what if intellectuals ran a state?

>>24480083
*kill me
Not call me. Though, I guess that, too.

>>24479899
Books on this?

>>24479999
But it is, inherently. Just a convenient exit strategy in a world that lacks meaning

>>24479999
That's what Voegelin believed

>>24480105
I just made it up. Those are my thoughts

>>24479827
What about 80 IQ psychopath Tyrones that can't understand hypotheticals about whether or not they had breakfast this morning?

>>24479900
dude just revealed his hand, honestly. check his IP.

>>24480046
this is a Voegelin-esque conception which I tend to agree with.

>>24479944
First you went for a “heckin based judeochristianity was lost and it doomed us all” gambit and now it’s the commie “dude the west totally stole everything the turd world is actually the real heroes”? Pick a lane, retard.

>>24479791
Impling sucess as a society is a criteria for truth.

>>24479827
According to you, there are no reasons to fight other than ideology. This is just not true at all.

>>24479899
>Rousseau
Rousseau, who confessed his Christian faith openly...

>>24479999
>but I don't agree with those sort of smug 'ackshually Marxism is a religion' type of assertions
Yet, Marxism has a lot of traits that are typical for religions.

>>24479827
Each individual has their own "truth" dictated by how their passions formed. Now consider that some passions cannot coexist due to how they're opposing states.

>>24480083
Are you me?

>>24481248
>>24480115
ugh. Voeglin's conflation of ideology and religion only serves to give the religious leeway to call their opponents hypocrites. It occludes obvious and essential differences - the most essential and obvious being that they are based in the material conditions of reality and don't appeal to supernatural powers.
>>24481140
I live in Michigan man not everyone who disagrees with you works for the KGB

>>24481812
I wasn't implying that retard. just making an observation.

>>24478814 (OP)
Yeah, it was a let down

>>24478814 (OP)
yes