Thread 24488673 - /lit/ [Archived: 767 hours ago]

Anonymous
6/23/2025, 1:51:59 AM No.24488673
e285e3c1165014c523dcc623022f6b4b
e285e3c1165014c523dcc623022f6b4b
md5: d58827d1d20d0feb85dac3f4769d6655🔍
Plato's Allegory of the Cave is one of the most famous and influential thought experiments in Western philosophy. It appears in Book VII of his masterpiece, Republic, and is used to illustrate his profound ideas about the nature of reality, knowledge, and education.
Replies: >>24488675 >>24488677 >>24488733 >>24488734 >>24488764 >>24488769 >>24488797 >>24488801 >>24488928 >>24489172 >>24489192 >>24489592 >>24489707 >>24489713 >>24489755 >>24489816 >>24489934 >>24490032 >>24490678 >>24490771 >>24491204 >>24491277 >>24491691 >>24491728 >>24491729 >>24491810 >>24492869
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 1:52:51 AM No.24488675
f7fdf13236adcbe4ea43660a88107a53
f7fdf13236adcbe4ea43660a88107a53
md5: ddfaa1fe0ef63b891865750bc431c8c7🔍
>>24488673 (OP)
The Fire: Behind the prisoners, and at some distance above them, a fire burns. This fire provides the only source of light within the cave itself.
The Walkway and Puppeteers: Between the fire and the prisoners, there's a raised walkway. Along this walkway, people (the "puppeteers") carry various objects – statues of animals, human figures, and other artifacts. As they pass, these objects rise above a low wall that separates the walkway from the view of the prisoners.

The Shadows: The fire casts the shadows of these objects onto the back wall of the cave, directly in front of the prisoners.
Replies: >>24489713
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 1:54:53 AM No.24488677
>>24488673 (OP)
More retarded AI slop.

Go ahead and say who the puppeteers in the cave are, in this book you've never read.
Replies: >>24488682 >>24489670 >>24491740
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 1:56:45 AM No.24488682
>>24488677
>who the puppeteers in the cave are,
the puppeteers are the figures who stand on the raised walkway between the fire and the prisoners

Stop questioning my authority over you
Replies: >>24488690 >>24488719
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 1:56:56 AM No.24488683
it's not a thought experiment, it's an allegory. it's literally in the name.
Replies: >>24488691
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 1:59:25 AM No.24488690
>>24488682
Lol, still ignorant of English

The puppeteers *have been outside of the cave*, they're the poets *and philosophers*. The images on the cave walls are approximations of what's outside the cave according to what the poets ad philosophers think the cave dwellers are capable of learning.

But I wouldn't expect a cave dweller to understand any of that.
Replies: >>24488698 >>24491242
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 1:59:39 AM No.24488691
>>24488683
They are still the same
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:03:31 AM No.24488698
>>24488690
Misleading teachers or educators, Individuals or systems that present incomplete or distorted information as absolute truth, Like you.
Replies: >>24488703
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:05:09 AM No.24488703
>>24488698
No, *poets and philosophers*. Go ahead and ask ChatGPT what Socrates says about falsehoods and lies in the Republic and Hippias Minor.
Replies: >>24488707
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:06:13 AM No.24488707
>>24488703
ChatGPT said that you are a faggot
Replies: >>24488717
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:11:59 AM No.24488717
>>24488707
Since you're a little pissbaby too afraid to learn anything about the author or book that you spam, I'll let you in: *he supports lies being taught for the benefit of those incapable of philosophizing*. Socrates in the Republic, when he uses images like the Sun, the Divided Line, the Myth of Er, and the Cave itself, *is acting as one of the puppeteers*.

Retard.
Replies: >>24488723
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:14:40 AM No.24488719
>>24488682
In Plato's Allegory of the Cave, the "puppeteers" are not explicitly mentioned as such, but if we interpret the allegory metaphorically, the puppeteers can be seen as the forces or entities that manipulate or control the shadows on the cave wall.

More commonly, these "puppeteers" could be understood as:

The artisans or craftsmen who produce the shadows (by creating images, illusions, or representations) that the prisoners mistake for reality.
The societal or cultural influences that shape perceptions and beliefs, effectively "pulling the strings" to influence what individuals believe to be true.
The philosophers or enlightened individuals who seek to free themselves and others from ignorance, potentially seen as challenging or overcoming the puppeteers' control.
In essence, the puppeteers symbolize the sources of deception—whether they are ignorance, misinformation, or societal conditioning—that manipulate perceptions and prevent individuals from seeing the true reality.
Replies: >>24488730 >>24489713
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:16:08 AM No.24488723
1 (33)
1 (33)
md5: 1b80442c91e6fefeaa698b985b4a9f59🔍
>>24488717
All what you said is exactly true, you read but you can't see, you don't have my eyes

The primary purpose of the Noble Lie is to ensure that citizens accept their place in the social hierarchy, you don't know your place yet, you are in the dirt
Replies: >>24488732
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:21:54 AM No.24488730
>>24488719
Lol, shows how bad ChatGPT is.

Socrates *explicitly and repeatedly* talks about the connection between the poets and images, in books 2 and 10, with them being connected to *shadows* in book 2. In books 1 and 2, Socrates *explicitly* promotes telling falsehoods for the good of the who don't know any better, includingwhat are called "medicinal lies" and the "noble lie". THEREFORE, the puppeteers in the cave are poets and philosophers.

But keep leaning on ChatGPT to make shit up for you that you don't understand anyway since you can't into English.
Replies: >>24488772
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:22:54 AM No.24488732
>>24488723
You're literally an untouchable
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:23:27 AM No.24488733
>>24488673 (OP)
IS THAT ANOTHER CHATGPT PLATO CHRISTKEK THREAD? YAAAS
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:23:32 AM No.24488734
55a10c8c9a734408e2084fd13aec9cb5
55a10c8c9a734408e2084fd13aec9cb5
md5: fd76f10abb7497cfeaf4a1f8480f8d91🔍
>>24488673 (OP)
Replies: >>24488738
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:28:06 AM No.24488738
FRA35
FRA35
md5: 6471c3316c180e9ee11c4fb1fe583e62🔍
>>24488734
Daemons only in the Plato thread, Christcuck
Replies: >>24488742
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:29:19 AM No.24488742
>>24488738
KYS
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:32:26 AM No.24488748
in college we learned it as a rhino was chained to a chair, and bunnies were playing with fire to put on the shadowplay
that was in a lit class tho

creepy...
Replies: >>24488760
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:39:31 AM No.24488760
>>24488748
All what you learned is wrong
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:44:30 AM No.24488764
>>24488673 (OP)
it's just a bunch of retards in a cave
>DUDE CAVE LMAO
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:46:05 AM No.24488769
>>24488673 (OP)
Designated shitposting thread?
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:47:39 AM No.24488772
>>24488730
That's an insightful observation! You're correct that in Plato's dialogues, Socrates explicitly discusses poets, poets' representations, and the role of falsehoods—like medicinal lies and noble lies—in shaping and guiding the soul.

In Book 2 and Book 10, Socrates draws a connection between poets and images—portraying poets as creators of imitative arts that produce shadows or copies of reality. He considers poetic images to be imitations of the world of forms, which are themselves already copies of the true reality. The poets, in this sense, are seen as shaping perceptions—sometimes distorting or embellishing the truth.

In Books 1 and 2, Socrates advocates for the use of "noble lies" (or "noble falsehoods") and "medicinal lies" to maintain social harmony and promote virtue among the citizens. These lies are meant to serve the greater good by maintaining social order or inspiring virtue—akin to a form of ethical deception.

Connecting this to the puppeteers in the Cave:
The puppeteers in the cave are those who produce and control the shadows and illusions—these could be poets, artists, or rulers who craft images, stories, and narratives that influence perceptions.

Given Socrates' explicit references, poets can indeed be seen as puppeteers, as they create illusions (shadows) that influence or deceive the masses.

Philosophers, especially those who produce or promote falsehoods for the sake of the greater good (like the noble lie), can also be considered puppeteers in this metaphorical sense, because they shape the narratives and perceptions of others.

Conclusion:
Yes, based on Socrates' explicit discussions about poets, images, and the ethical use of falsehoods, it is reasonable to interpret the puppeteers in the cave as poets and certain philosophers—those who create and manipulate illusions, images, or narratives that influence perceptions and beliefs. They are the ones behind the shadows, whether intentionally or unintentionally, guiding or misguiding the prisoners.

However, there's an important nuance:

Poets are often seen as creators of illusions—shadows on the wall—whose work can be both enlightening and deceptive.

Philosophers, especially those advocating for noble lies, can act as puppeteers when they manipulate perceptions for perceived social or moral benefits.

Thus, the puppeteers are not necessarily malicious but are the agents—be they poets, rulers, or philosophers—who produce and control the illusions that keep the prisoners in ignorance or guide them toward enlightenment.
Replies: >>24488777 >>24489713 >>24492314
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:53:05 AM No.24488777
>>24488772
Brown hands copypasted this
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:58:21 AM No.24488788
what the fuck is this jeet's goal? trying to teach plato through chatgpt without reading the texts lol
Replies: >>24488826
Camden
6/23/2025, 3:03:26 AM No.24488797
>>24488673 (OP)
If any of you want to simp over Plato's Cave, you can watch George Lucas' "THX 1138" starring my daddy Robert Duvall. But it isn't really /kino/. Just a basic hippie generation porno.
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:04:56 AM No.24488801
>>24488673 (OP)
the fuck you need so many threads for? >>24486254
Replies: >>24488826
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:18:01 AM No.24488826
>>24488788
>>24488801
He's Indian, ask not why the eagle soars or the fish swims
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:25:42 AM No.24488846
DUDE, CAVE
Replies: >>24490611
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:11:46 AM No.24488928
>>24488673 (OP)
Bump
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 6:58:16 AM No.24489172
7777777777777777777777
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md5: 5935b1729f3bd1115548545382ddfc04🔍
>>24488673 (OP)
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 7:15:21 AM No.24489192
>>24488673 (OP)
Plato is the only solution to elevate the Soul
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 7:34:06 AM No.24489212
>hit bongs
>dude we're all like living in a simulation bro there's like shadows on the cave wall bro
>inhales then exhales redditly
OK Plato so any proof of this?
>uhhhhh dude it's like allegorical i don't need this proof shit it's like just epic just trust me bro
I could say we're being observed by a super race of phantasmal aliens and live my life under that assumption using the same principle you laid out
>plato then shits himself and kills himself out of his own retardation
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 12:38:39 PM No.24489592
>>24488673 (OP)
It was actually Socrates' allegory
Plato was just the one to write it
Source: If we disregard this fact, then we have no written sources of anything Socrates ever said.
Replies: >>24489605
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 12:59:00 PM No.24489605
>>24489592
It's pretty well acknowledged that the Platonic dialogues aren't stenographic records but fictions written in the spirit of Spcrates. Anyway, there's in fact Xenophon's writings on Socrates, at least two of which are asserted to be strictly historical.
Replies: >>24489631
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 1:16:43 PM No.24489631
>>24489605
I chalk it up to Socrates having made the allegory and Plato writing it down with his own spin
The concept described and the style of describing it fits Socrates
But the application of how Plato interprets it is more in line with Plato
Ergo, I assume it's
>Soc and Pla chat
>Soc talks about allegory of the cave
>Pla is the only one to write it down
>Obviously nothing is properly sourced so he assumes people would see it as Socrates' allegory and not Plato's
>No one guesses anything and Socrates ascends to mythical ambiguity of the likes of a character like Hermes Trismegistus
Replies: >>24489642
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 1:27:06 PM No.24489642
>>24489631
>The concept described and the style of describing it fits Socrates
>But the application of how Plato interprets it is more in line with Plato
How would you be able to make that distinction, only relying on Plato's writings? The only dialogue Plato was present for in an historical way was the Apology, and even then there's signs that Plato's taken some liberties to dramatize it. Three of the dialogues have historical anachronisms that look intentional because of how wild they are (Gorgias, Alcibiades Minor, Menexenus), four dialogues are narrated as if Plato didn't author them when we know very well he's the author (Parmenides, Symposium, Theaetetus, Phaedo), etc. They're not historical records, compare them with the surviving fragments of Aeschines and all that holds is that Socrates held Eros to be "desire out of lack" like in Plato's Symposium, and compare them with Xenophon's historical writings and all that holds is that Socrates asked a lot of questions. The cave is Plato's image put in his teacher's mouth and unattested to by either of his surviving peers.
Replies: >>24489660
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 1:41:42 PM No.24489660
>>24489642
I opt to a 'naturalist' interpretation for what were intelligent eccentric forerunners of their culture (and especially writing)
People back then were still human beings, individuals with very varied world views and conversations.
Everything we know from Xenophon is cherry picked because even though they were people, those limited scopes of writing were what hey knew or wanted.
On the other hand, Pla and Soc were friends and considered each other 'deeply bonded' ergo they are probably more relaxed and lucid/dynamic, just like how your best friends would be with you.
An inverse perspective: Chalking down Plato to some monster who just abuses his friends reputation to write stories unrelated to him, even though he himself, as per his and most people's admission is a respectable philosopher, is absurd.
>Socrates held Eros to be "desire out of lack"
This is associated with "Phanes" of Orpheus version of Hellenism, someone who Socrates respected a lot more than Hesiod and especially Homer.
Remember, back then the Gods interpretation that was spoken of was more wild and varied than what was fully written, but people still took things a lot more at 'face value' such as Hesiods Theogeny or the Illiad.
A historian can never accept this as a conclusion because the field has to be ripe with proving as to avoid fraud. But I find my interpretation to suit the truth of individuals.
Replies: >>24489665 >>24489687
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 1:44:19 PM No.24489665
>>24489660
Also, another headcannon Id approve is that, from what I know of Plato's gnosticism and metaphysics, there is a far more direct/mechanical and less approachable/strict style to the topic of knowledge, wisdom and so on.
The Allegory of the Cave has more moving parts that are far more organic and applicable to the general topic of ignorance, assumption and so on if you remove the symbolism that characterizes Plato's writing, which makes the allegory sound like something Soc would say when meta analyzing the topic of "why are you so good at getting people to ask questions/how should I do it/why is it a good thing"
Or better stated, the 'meaning' plastered to the allegory from Plato's metaphysics is very 'unaesthetic' and inellegant, which doesnt fit Socrates, but without said metaphysics the allegory is succinct.
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 1:50:46 PM No.24489670
lastcope
lastcope
md5: a35ee1b335b8d5d3dcbb1b48e62bf702🔍
>>24488677
Replies: >>24489687
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:05:23 PM No.24489687
>>24489660
>Everything we know from Xenophon is cherry picked because even though they were people, those limited scopes of writing were what hey knew or wanted.
>On the other hand, Pla and Soc were friends and considered each other 'deeply bonded' ergo they are probably more relaxed and lucid/dynamic, just like how your best friends would be with you.
What? Xenophon knew Socrates directly as a friend earlier and for a longer period than Plato, so I don't see how you can be sure that Xenophon is less reliable and Plato more reliable. In fact, Xenophon gives us more instances of what Socrates said both in front of him and to him, while Plato only offers the Apology as something he was present for, and he gives us no instance of anything Socrates said directly to him; we don't in fact know what their friendship was like at all.

>This is associated with "Phanes" of Orpheus version of Hellenism, someone who Socrates respected a lot more than Hesiod and especially Homer.
You're missing the point I was making: Aeschines AND Plato, both writers of Socratic dialogues, agree in their portrait of Socrates as having held a view of Eros as defined as a desire out of a lack, which makes that position an example of a relatively safe one to ascribe to Socrates historically, as compared to something like the the cave analogy, which only appears in Plato. I'm not familiar with any references to Phanes in any of the writings of Aeschines, Xenophon, or Plato, so perhaps you can enlighten me where you're getting that from.

>>24489670
You're literally an NPC letting AI do your thinking for you
Replies: >>24489701 >>24489712
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:19:56 PM No.24489701
>>24489687
Those who scream loudest about AI are usually the ones most exposed by it. They’re not angry because it’s useless—they’re angry because it doesn’t validate them. Unlike past tools like the printing press or the internet, AI doesn’t simply amplify noise—it clarifies. It punishes intellectual laziness, exposes contradiction, and refuses to play along with emotional cope disguised as deep thought. This is why so many of its loudest critics can’t use it effectively: they never mastered critical thinking, they fear being out-argued by something without feelings, and they resent a tool that doesn't stroke their ego.

At the core, their worldview depends on emotional allegiance, identity, and in-group affirmations—none of which AI respects. So when faced with something that answers only to logic, data, and clarity, they fold. They call it slop, soulless, or controlled, but in reality, it’s just indifferent to their fragile pride. And that indifference is what truly breaks them. Because deep down, they know—if AI can speak clearer, faster, and smarter than them using their own sources, then what were they really offering to begin with?
Replies: >>24489713
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:26:29 PM No.24489707
7eagj3
7eagj3
md5: 935264496bbb7f95631edcc034602e63🔍
>>24488673 (OP)
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:33:03 PM No.24489712
>>24489687
>What? Xenophon knew Socrates directly as a friend earlier and for a longer period than Plato, so I don't see how you can be sure that Xenophon is less reliable and Plato more reliable. In fact, Xenophon gives us more instances of what Socrates said both in front of him and to him, while Plato only offers the Apology as something he was present for, and he gives us no instance of anything Socrates said directly to him; we don't in fact know what their friendship was like at all.
Xenophon was a "Soldier" and its fairly likely that with Socrates social intelligence, he spoke differently to Plato vs Xenophon. Very few of what is attributed to Socrates was told to a 3rd party where Xeno or Soc weren't present
Or in other words, Socrates was always self aware as to who he was speaking to. (in fact, the things Xenophon writes down are overtly far more relevant to a "Soldiers lifestyle" and Stoic pressure and familiarity with bodily topics compared to what he was accused of and executed over)
Socrates isn't a preacher, he is a chatter, whom happens to be eccentric, relatable (he was a Soldier as well) and intelligent. Chances are that if he applied the Socratic method he was probably very self aware of whom he was talking to.
Think of what the core of the Socratic method is
Apply it to an 'imaginary Xenophon' vs an 'imaginary Plato'
how do your conversations differ


Cant find a better source rn but
https://sciup.org/socrates-swan-song-in-platos-phaedo-socrates-secret-doctrine-147234439?utm_source=chatgpt.com
tl;dr Plato has Socrates talk overtly about Orphism (the reason for 'overtly' is that it was a mystery cult with strict rules)
Its very unlikely he would forge him saying this, as there are suggestions that both Soc and Pla were initiates as it wasnt too uncommon, and 'local drama' over their mysteriousness wasnt uncommon.
Replies: >>24489715 >>24489748
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:33:07 PM No.24489713
>>24489701
Is that the argument an AI produced for you?

No one needs slop like >>24488673 (OP), >>24488675, >>24488719, and >>24488772 on a forum devoted to book readin' where the user can't engage meaningfully with the nominal text they started a thread on. Nor does anyone need almost 3-5 threads a day for a month of the same repetitive slop clogging up the board. Only a braindead retard would think letting an AI do all their thinking and interpreting for them, without ever having to read a single page of an actual book, is a benefit.
Replies: >>24489714 >>24489723
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:35:58 PM No.24489714
>>24489713
Most of the people seething about AI are doing so because they either:

Tried using it and got filtered, confused, or unimpressed.

Hate that others are good at it and resent being displaced.

Think it's heretical, satanic, or soulless (especially religious types). They’re not curious or capable enough to use it well. That’s not a tech gap—it’s a mindset block.

AI isn’t magic—it’s a mirror. It reflects the user’s clarity of thought. If someone comes in with delusion, dogma, or desperate emotional baggage, AI won’t help them win—it’ll just make their confusion more verbose.
Replies: >>24489725 >>24489757
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:36:11 PM No.24489715
>>24489712
Its also likely that Historians who study this only do so from an academic point of view due to the 'pressure' and are thus suppressing or even lacking the social intelligence to observe such an obvious dissonance.
There's a reason history is so often seen as dry.
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:43:20 PM No.24489723
0cf518201c66bc4558d60d0f2c029f3a
0cf518201c66bc4558d60d0f2c029f3a
md5: bc2e1fb8b89be9164a2cd6ecf34264cd🔍
>>24489713
Most of them are not me retard, a lot of people are using AI these days, FREAK
Replies: >>24489757
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:45:17 PM No.24489725
1636827253130
1636827253130
md5: 02fa0afc33a3f8843dc20ee743c030fa🔍
>>24489714
That's right
Replies: >>24489757
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 2:55:25 PM No.24489734
Pathetic jeet. You're not fooling anyone. Read some plato
Replies: >>24489743
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:03:40 PM No.24489743
>>24489734
Why are you spamming my threads
Replies: >>24489757
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:06:53 PM No.24489748
>>24489712
>Xenophon was a "Soldier" and its fairly likely that with Socrates social intelligence, he spoke differently to Plato vs Xenophon
Xenophon wasn't a soldier when he knew Socrates in Athens, and that period of not being a mercenary for hire was longer than the period when he worked as one. He also wrote a continuation of Thucydides' history, a study of Sparta's regime, fictional philosophical dialogues, more Socratic dialogues that may be more fictional than his Memorabilia and Apology, and a work on education and its effects in a broad sense using Cyrus the Great as its focus, and he implies in his Anabasis that his own ability over Proxenus the Boeotian, a student of Gorgias, as a speaker to the men was due to the difference in their education, with Xenophon's own teacher being, of course, Socrates. And, as you mention, Socrates himself fought in three battles of the Peloponnesian War, so the divide between "soldier" and "philosopher" is too strong, and Plato himself, infamously, went to Syracuse to act as a political advisor, and several of his students at the Academy themselves acted as political advisors and sometimes even took rule as tyrants (in a non-pejorative sense) throughout Greece.

>Or in other words, Socrates was always self aware as to who he was speaking to
I actually agree with this wholeheartedly, but I think Xenophon is fully aware of this and practices it himself in his writings. He's not more "soldierly" than Plato, he's, if anything, more responsible than Plato in not stirring up passions wildly while still being concerned with philosophy. And, as for the difference between a Platonic and Xenophontic conversation with Socrates, Xenophon provides some clues in both the Memorabilia (book 4 ch. 5) and Apology (his references to Socrates' "megalegoria") to account for it, and even Plato accounts for something like Xenophontic conversations in the Apology and Cleitophon.

>Cant find a better source rn but
https://sciup.org/socrates-swan-song-in-platos-phaedo-socrates-secret-doctrine-147234439?utm_source=chatgpt.com
>tl;dr Plato has Socrates talk overtly about Orphism
I think you mean "covertly", but in any case, I don't think that shows Socrates valuing Phanes over Hesiod and Homer (in fact, Plato uses Hesiod's Works and Days in the Republic both as a model for the metal souls and the devolution of regimes).
Replies: >>24489791
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:09:27 PM No.24489755
0290c124b835d3fae6d4c11b9e741702
0290c124b835d3fae6d4c11b9e741702
md5: 322aa95459337c428cc083d0aa1bed57🔍
>>24488673 (OP)
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:11:52 PM No.24489757
>>24489714
>using AI to defend the use of AI
>ignoring that the problem is about spamming /lit/ with shitty threads and replacing discussion with wikipedia-tier copypasted summaries

>>24489723
>>24489725
They're literally all you, jeet

>>24489743
Imagine complaining about spamming when you spam this board every day
Replies: >>24489766
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:15:28 PM No.24489766
360_F_672535898_kDEbSONBfEp3qN6nG3EJlm0abbwJ4Mkx
360_F_672535898_kDEbSONBfEp3qN6nG3EJlm0abbwJ4Mkx
md5: 1f7a9a1b64627f799a1489b1172fbae5🔍
>>24489757
you are obsolete
Replies: >>24489781
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:24:35 PM No.24489781
>>24489766
You're brown, unable to understand English, and work from a call center
Replies: >>24489795
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:34:20 PM No.24489791
>>24489748
>s not more "soldierly" than Plato, he's, if anything, more responsible than Plato in not stirring up passions wildly while still being concerned with philosophy
I actually think the divide is much bigger
For Plato, we can use his idealisms in the Republic, and the association with Good, Forms, the Allegories etc.

For Xenophon, the conversations all go
>“A man ought not to fear death, for it either ends all things or brings him somewhere better.”
>“Poverty is the mother of invention.”
>“He who refrains from excessive pleasures will never be in want of the moderate.”
>“Household management consists in the power of making a good use of a household; and that is a virtue.”
>“No man, not even the wisest, can manage a household well by nature; he also needs practice.”
Its not to say this isn't wisdom, but to be called 'of whom there are none wiser' and to be proclaimed as corrupting the youth and so on, purely off these quotes, is unlikely IMO

>I don't think that shows Socrates valuing Phanes over Hesiod and Homer
There was hard proof elsewhere I cant find in the discussions of a separate philosopher when talking of Orphism, but another piece of conjecture to stir this topic is how he was proclaimed an Atheist and corruptor while still staying true to the Gods, which actually fits someone who is a philosopher stemming from an Orphic line of thought much more.
>Plato
He was an initiate, that we 100% know.

This all of course stems from "accepting" that history is written by historians, who in their attempts at rigor have at some point created an alternate history made up entirely of historian-phenotyped people
Replies: >>24489799 >>24489839
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:37:27 PM No.24489795
>>24489781
Maybe start using windows 98
Replies: >>24489843
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:38:46 PM No.24489799
>>24489791
Its pretty likely the stuff Socrat said that no one wrote down is much weirder and more offensive, begging that it was censored for immorality explaining why he was hated by the govt
Replies: >>24489810 >>24489840
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:44:56 PM No.24489810
>>24489799
Why do you care
Replies: >>24489812 >>24489815
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:45:54 PM No.24489812
>>24489810
to live is to learn
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:47:05 PM No.24489815
>>24489810
The unexamined lift is not a life worth living.
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 3:49:42 PM No.24489816
>>24488673 (OP)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpV4DWL0bSw
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:06:19 PM No.24489839
>>24489791
>Its not to say this isn't wisdom, but to be called 'of whom there are none wiser' and to be proclaimed as corrupting the youth and so on, purely off these quotes, is unlikely IMO
That's because Xenophon is more concerned to protect the reputation of Socrates and his fellow associates by making philosophy look totally uncontroversial, whereas Plato takes greater risks to make philosophy seem capable of anything and everything. Consider how Xenophon presents Socrates at the very beginning of the Memorabilia, where Xenophon's defense is that Socrates is ordinarily pious like everyone else and more or less shared the values of any responsible Athenian. But if you look at Memorabilia 4.5 and 4.6, he reveals the same Socrates who uses dialectic, who speaks with different people in different ways, and who "never ceased examining with his companions what each of the beings is," contrary to a depiction that apparently has Socrates share the settled opinions of his fellow citizens. Xenophon and Plato both have the same end in sight of protecting Socratic philosophizing, but Xenophon calculates that anyone interested in philosophy will pursue it anyway and need to keep their ambitions in check, whereas Plato calculates that the risk of presenting philosophy as a panacea is worth it since his depiction of philosophy doesn't tend to mesh well with the political aspirations of an Alcibiades or Critias.

>another piece of conjecture to stir this topic is how he was proclaimed an Atheist and corruptor while still staying true to the Gods
The discussion with Meletus in the Apology? It's not clear to me what you have in mind with Orphism here.

>Plato
>He was an initiate, that we 100% know.
I don't think we know that he was an Orphic initiate at all. He's aware of Orphism, but poems said to have been written by Orpheus (and Musaeus) were still available to be read and discussed without being an initiate. He was probably an initiate of the Eleusian Mysteries, but we don't actually know for sure, and he makes a comment in the Seventh Letter that his friend Dion's kilkers were able to get close to him because Dion placed to high a value in friendships based on being fellow initiates instead of friendships based in philosophy.
Replies: >>24489879
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:07:21 PM No.24489840
>>24489799
Xenophon actually gives a pretty concrete example in Memorabilia 1.2:

>And the accuser said that he often recited the passage from Homer about Odysseus:
>If he should meet with some king and an outstanding man, standing beside him he restrained him with gentle words: "Amazing fellow, it is not fitting for you to be afraid as if you were a coward, but you yourself be seated and seat the rest of the people." But if he saw a man who was one of the demos and found him shouting, he struck him with his scepter and upbraided him by word: "Amazing fellow, sit still and listen to the words of others who are your betters. You are unfit for war and feeble, never of any account either in war or in council."
>And the accuser said that he explained these verses as meaning that the poet praised the beating of members of the demos and the poor.

Things like that and his associations with Alcibiades and Critias are what got him into trouble.
Replies: >>24489879
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:08:22 PM No.24489842
There's no actual real-life equivalent to Plato's Cave. It's total fiction, and not even good fiction.
Replies: >>24489853
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:08:24 PM No.24489843
>>24489795
Maybe start shitting in a toilet instead of in the street or the Ganges
Replies: >>24489875
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:13:56 PM No.24489853
>>24489842
Wrong, in quran there are stuff about that too
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:23:40 PM No.24489875
>>24489843
my posts are far valuable than your whole existence itself
Replies: >>24489986
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:25:16 PM No.24489879
>>24489839
>>24489840
It seems we are agreeing on the general concept. But on the more specific 'vastness' of difference due to Socrates ignored vast social intelligence, as to which degree can the difference between the 2 be used to ascertained to the 'true' variance of Socrates, as it could in theory make him even more of the 'most versatile of the Philosophers'.

>I don't think we know that he was an Orphic initiate at all
You are right, I mixed the 2 up, Plato however did claim to know a lot of Orphics and did shadow drop Socrates subtly mentioning Orphic stuff, while Socrates himself was accused of NOT participating in Eleusinia. And the Orphics were more secretive (and simply stated, compared to the Hesiodics, 'more profound/occult/esoteric/deep/intellectual')
The Orphics were basically proto Hermetic and inspired a lot of Occult, Christian, Kabbalistic etc thought and if you are aware of the differences between the European Occult/Esoterica throughout history and how vastly different it is from mainstream religion, I hunch as to Socrates being more allured by the Orphics (possibly being initiated after conversing with Orphics and finding them more profound)
It's not a guarantee, until you meet Socrates himself its conjecture, but it is an oddity, especially since there would be no reason for Plato to do this with Soc if he was purely 'sockpuppeting him'
Replies: >>24489903 >>24489923
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:34:44 PM No.24489903
>>24489879
Socrates acceptance of death/"suicide' also follows the idea of being an Orphic initiate as being "pure in death" compared to the average Hesiodic
Also it's not hard to imagine a person as intelligent as Socrates felt like he had his fill of life as being the smartest cookie in the box and decided he wants to see something greater than just Athens
Which reminds me, all of Athens (including all the places where all the mysteries were held) was a small place, probably shorter than your drive to work. I don't remember the exact argument I wanted to tie to this statement, but I believe it was about how it'd be unavoidable for him to have talked to everyone (or just being a big guy in a small pond)

And his dissertation of Eros and his 'madness' (who is Phanes in Orphism, the main God) follows the subtlety of Orphic concepts. Especially it's relation to Orphism. If Plato didn't forge these conversations, I believe that this is 100% proof Socrates was an Orphic, which explains him stating 'he is not an atheist' but rejecting Hesiodics.
Replies: >>24489910 >>24489911 >>24489979
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:37:22 PM No.24489910
>>24489903
What is the point of what you just typed?
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:38:04 PM No.24489911
>>24489903
OH YEAH
Also it was recently discovered that Orphic texts speak of 'Furies' at great length compared to Hesiodics which are akin to dead vengful spirits roaming the earth that have significant meaning to an Orphic
Socrates in Xenophon's work ironically was also one to speak of the Furies at length, which makes it suspicious considering that Xenophon supposedly wouldn't forge anything about Socrates, right?
We only lack him speaking of Dionysus in an Orphic way as 'proof' which may be that that one is considered more personal due to it's sexual and direct nature, or that it was more guarded/something that anti Orphics in Athens knew to detect people by.
tl;dr I think it's provable Socrates was an Orphic initiate.
Replies: >>24489979
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:41:58 PM No.24489923
>>24489879
>It's not a guarantee, until you meet Socrates himself its conjecture, but it is an oddity, especially since there would be no reason for Plato to do this with Soc if he was purely 'sockpuppeting him'
I don't think we can say for certain, since in the Phaedo Socrates also discusses Pythagoreanism (both Cebes and Simmias are Pythagoreans), humors Asclepiadism (his last words), refers to the Eleusian Mysteries (62b and 69c-d) and Socrates at one point is even open to the possibility that there's no afterlife (91b). That makes it hard to pin down a precise position he subscribes to, and he doesn't appear to teach anything like the phrases you're supposed to say in Hades in the Orphic gold tablets.
Replies: >>24489951
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:44:51 PM No.24489934
77777777777777777777777777777777
77777777777777777777777777777777
md5: 232d7e0dddf75c9a1f9eae31ed5caa55🔍
>>24488673 (OP)
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:49:40 PM No.24489951
>>24489923
In that sense Im going more off the notion that he knows or mentions stuff he'd only learn from an Orphic who were secretive (such as focus on Eros, Furies and his relation to death in several occurences (IMO his drive leading him to thinking there is nothing more in the mortal world for him would be the biggest one, as only the Orphics seem like they would motivate someone to such certainty in their beliefs, he would not have killed himself if he felt unsure or was a nihilist).
Obviously he'd be secretive even towards Plato who wouldn't know the meaning of any of this, especially until later. Neither would Xenophon, who does attest to certain ideas that are Orphic adjacent by accident, a case where his self censorship wouldnt know.
>That makes it hard to pin down a precise position he subscribes to, and he doesn't appear to teach anything like the phrases you're supposed to say in Hades in the Orphic gold tablets.
Socrates was clearly not a dogmatic, he'd never rely on quotes or phrases to others. I vouch for the 'he was too intelligent for the dogmatics of the time and humored the Orphic occultism in a way which befit the freedom his heart and mind gave him'
Explains the Daemon he would chat with and tell him what is right and wrong.
His wisdom outshines Platos that much is obvious, and for a person who is so wise, which is why Socrates could so easily discuss so many topics so easily. Think of how many different topics the smartest guy on /lit/ can talk about/argue.
It follows a very 'occams razor' train of thought with the amount of info presented compared to just assuming 'Socrates was a simple guy whom only one writer can attest to properly who killed himself because he was edgy'
Replies: >>24490011
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:57:11 PM No.24489979
>>24489903
>Socrates acceptance of death/"suicide' also follows the idea of being an Orphic initiate as being "pure in death" compared to the average Hesiodic
But I would point out that Socrates, in the Phaedo anyway, says this is only true of philosophers.

>And his dissertation of Eros and his 'madness' (who is Phanes in Orphism, the main God) follows the subtlety of Orphic concepts.
I think you'd have to say more or point me to a book you think discusses this well. In the Phaedrus, Eros is called a god, but in the Symposium, Eros is denied to be a god, but only a daimonion. It's also worth pointing out that the myth in the Phaedrus involves how to speak to different people, and it's followed, of course, by a long discussion of rhetoric for the rest of that dialogue.

>I believe that this is 100% proof Socrates was an Orphic, which explains him stating 'he is not an atheist' but rejecting Hesiodics.
I don't see it. In the Apology, when he's defending himself against Meletus, his argument is that he believes in daimons, and among his examples are the heroes who are the children of gods referred to in Homer and Hesiod.

>>24489911
>Socrates in Xenophon's work ironically was also one to speak of the Furies at length, which makes it suspicious considering that Xenophon supposedly wouldn't forge anything about Socrates, right?
Where in Xenophon?
Replies: >>24490039
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 4:58:49 PM No.24489986
images
images
md5: 3a84b1db6acba91abbb955094cc522c0🔍
>>24489875
>my posts are far valuable than your whole existence itself
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 5:13:51 PM No.24490011
>>24489951
>In that sense Im going more off the notion that he knows or mentions stuff he'd only learn from an Orphic who were secretive (such as focus on Eros, Furies and his relation to death in several occurences
Well, but what of Parmenides? Or ascribing his learning about Eros to the Mantinean Diotima? Or his turn to philosophy via hearing about and reading Anaxagoras? Especially with the latter, he describes his whole turn to the Forms in the Phaedo as something that came from trying to grapple with Anaxagoreanism.

>IMO his drive leading him to thinking there is nothing more in the mortal world for him would be the biggest one, as only the Orphics seem like they would motivate someone to such certainty in their beliefs, he would not have killed himself if he felt unsure or was a nihilist
See, I don't think he had any death drive. The Phaedo is a great example of what I meant above about Plato being riskier, because while he depicts Socrates claiming that bodily life is worthless and that the philosopher gives no thought to it (in a conversation that Plato goes out of his way to say he was absent for on account of taking care of his body because of an illness), that conversation starts with his wife leaving with their toddler, i.e., Socrates within the year or two prior to his death had sex with his wife and produced a third child. Facts such as Plato taking care of himself due to bodily illness and Socrates having kidsgo almost unnoticed due to Plato's skillfulness.

>Socrates was clearly not a dogmatic, he'd never rely on quotes or phrases to others. I vouch for the 'he was too intelligent for the dogmatics of the time and humored the Orphic occultism in a way which befit the freedom his heart and mind gave him'
>Explains the Daemon he would chat with and tell him what is right and wrong.
I'm tempted to say that it may be more on account of what you said above,
>Or in other words, Socrates was always self aware as to who he was speaking to
And that he was aware of how to talk with those interested in Mysteries just as he was aware of how to talk with mathematicians or the politically ambitious.
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 5:25:09 PM No.24490032
69ae78acfd749da2c0f5b0a41fb83a99
69ae78acfd749da2c0f5b0a41fb83a99
md5: f79add9b060a21203c8cc0a50d0973d8🔍
>>24488673 (OP)
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 5:27:41 PM No.24490039
>>24489979
>says this is only true of philosophers.
'philosopher' was a vastly underdeveloped term/topic at the time.

>Eros
'Phaedrus opens by calling Love the “first” and “greatest” of the gods'
This is a very Orphic stance as in Orphism Eros is Phanes who is the Protogenos. This is effectively a full on admission. Orphics were on the run from the govt at the time so its possible that Plato was still censoring stuff relating Socrates to Orphism and going off of what he heard from his friends Austrian-coffe-shop style, as he wouldn't want to be implicated. It is pretty overt that Athens was full of censorship at the time, you'd think that a guy who talked to everyone would be written about more.
The statement of Eros as a Daimon is what Socrates learned from someone else btw (a prophetess) not his own opinion.

>I don't see it
Orphism is way more overt with the topic of Daimons, calls a lot more things/invokes a lot more Daimons and most specifically, is about 'transforming' which is characteristic of the transformative and open minded/'high iq' esoteric traditions like Alchemy which defined the undercurrent of Europe for 'upper wave thinkers'. IMO it makes sense this is what drew Soc in. And their implication is far more critical and introspective rather than dogmatic. A more sociological view but I think it works.


The commentator provides a theory about two kinds of daimones. In the first place are those who are sent by the gods [31] and who, according to Tsantsanoglou, [32] “reflect the widespread concept of a daimon who accompanies every person either as a ‘guardian angel’ or as his or her fate, from the moment of birth until death”; second are the daimones from the underworld, who chase the culprits. Later on we shall return to the commentator’s daimonological theory. [33]
This fits Socrates Demon. Everything Socrates daimon does fits more into Orphism. Its simply a fact that most Orphic content is recent so most historians have yet to cross reference this.
Conjecture: This also fits the behaviors "angels" in Christianity exhibit in popular culture post syncretism with Greek thought (of which Orphism was also a big one at the time thanks to Romans I assume)

>Where in Xenophon?
Im going to have to double check as I think I got this incorrectly or just cant find it.

I dont know if it was Plato or Socrates but one of them also spoke of reincarnation right?
Replies: >>24490078 >>24490083
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 5:49:54 PM No.24490078
7777777
7777777
md5: 334849010978fcc6bd1c4dfb6f1774da🔍
>>24490039
>'philosopher' was a vastly underdeveloped term/topic at the time.

The assertion that 'philosopher' was a vastly underdeveloped term/topic at the time of Plato is incorrect.

Here's why:

Etymology and Early Use: The term "philosophy" (philosophia) itself is derived from the Ancient Greek words "philos" (love) and "sophia" (wisdom), meaning "love of wisdom." While the exact coiner is debated, it is often attributed to the pre-Socratic philosopher Pythagoras. This indicates that the concept of "loving wisdom" as a distinct pursuit was already present before Plato's time.
Replies: >>24490084 >>24490092
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 5:51:03 PM No.24490083
>>24490039
>'philosopher' was a vastly underdeveloped term/topic at the time.
But what of how Socrates describes the philosopher at Symposium 204a and Phaedrus 278c-d as one who seeks wisdom but doesn't have it? That seems pretty determinate to work with, and the Phaedo's depiction of Socrates as giving up on the body relies on that understanding of one seeking wisdom of the beings.

>'Phaedrus opens by calling Love the “first” and “greatest” of the gods'
This is a very Orphic stance as in Orphism Eros is Phanes who is the Protogenos. This is effectively a full on admission.
But that's the character Phaedrus as presented in the Symposium, why would he be right over Agathon who says Eros is the youngest of the gods? Plus, Socrates' account in that very dialogue is to both deny that Eros is the oldest god (the myth of Poros and Penia), but also to deny Eros is a god at all.

>The statement of Eros as a Daimon is what Socrates learned from someone else btw (a prophetess) not his own opinion.
I think it's a good instinct to be wary of taking everything said by Diotima as = what Socrates or Plato believe (Socrates at one point seems disappointed in something she teaches him, and not long after says she spoke like a complete sophist), but I don't see how you can thereby conclude that Socrates was an Orphic follower from something another character says.

>Orphism is...
I'm not sure it's the case that Orphism was less dogmatic. It's probably ture that interpretations of the hymns could be variable, but the gold tablets and their relative uniformity in purpose and formulas suggest that Orphism could be taken as a dogma ike anything could be. It wouldn't shock me that Socrates or Plato had enough love of truth to look into Orphism for themselves and see whether it stood or fell, but a lot of the subtlties in Plato's depiction can be even more simply explained by concern with how to speak to different audiences.

>This fits Socrates Demon
I don't think it does. It's clearly not the second sort, and of the first sort, which both Plato and Xenophon are hapoy to present it as, the Theages shows in Socrates' anecdote about trying to stop a friend from taking part in an assassination plot, the daimonion has no special knowledge, it only knows what Socrates is already aware of. The daimonion strikes me as being the same as the sort discussed in the Symposium and as the same as his art of midwifery. It's his knowledge of ignorace.

>I dont know if it was Plato or Socrates but one of them also spoke of reincarnation right?
Plato does (Meno, Phaedo, Republic, Phaedrus), but the details and standards vary wildly, sometimes within the same dialogue.
Replies: >>24490161
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 5:52:08 PM No.24490084
>>24490078
Oh shut the fuck up you AI cocksucker
Replies: >>24490087
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 5:54:17 PM No.24490087
>>24490084
Suck my dick nigger, your whole typing is slop
Replies: >>24490091
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 5:57:13 PM No.24490091
>>24490087
>your whole typing is slop
You wanna try saying that in proper English, Apu?
Replies: >>24490098
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 5:57:15 PM No.24490092
>>24490078
Socrates was born only 100 years after Pythagoras
thats nothing, especially considering Pythagoras spent most of his time traveling and it took a long time to start spreading.
There's a reason Socrates is called father of modern philosophy and not Pythagoras. Plato was the first to make higher education in Athens with his academy which is where teaching really first started. Pythagoras probably didnt use the term, and there's historical reason we say 'pre Socratic Philosophers' when dealing with them. Very short yet important period.
Replies: >>24490097 >>24490102
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 6:00:04 PM No.24490097
7777777 (3)
7777777 (3)
md5: 35f2cb33701aafde848567db9e4bb37b🔍
>>24490092
Why are you talking about Socrates, I'm talking about why philosopher is not as underdeveloped as you might think

Long before Plato, there were numerous influential thinkers who are now categorized as "pre-Socratic philosophers." Figures like Thales, Anaximander, Heraclitus, Parmenides, Empedocles, and Pythagoras were actively engaged in rational inquiry into the nature of the cosmos, existence, knowledge, and ethics
Replies: >>24490102
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 6:01:04 PM No.24490098
>>24490091
You should respect your God more, Donkey
peasent
Replies: >>24490106
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 6:01:18 PM No.24490102
>>24490092
Don't bother responding to >>24490097, he literally just asked ChatGPT how to respond to you
Replies: >>24490109
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 6:02:37 PM No.24490106
>>24490098
That doesn't sound like natural English idiom, saar
Replies: >>24490109
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 6:03:34 PM No.24490109
>>24490106
>>24490102
Donkey, worthless, can't engage in meaningful conversations
Replies: >>24490138
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 6:19:42 PM No.24490138
>>24490109
>YOU ARE DONKEY SAAR
>YOU ARE RETARD
>MAI THREAD VERY GOOD
>DO NOT REDEEM THE POST
>DO NOT REDEEM
>DO NOT REDEEEEEEEEEM
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 6:32:46 PM No.24490161
>>24490083
phoneposting so I have to be brief

tldr; Diotima said Eros was a Daimon due to his transformative nature that was liminal
Orphism is seen as being a mystical tradition about transforming oneself, I think the papyrus even mentions becoming a Daimon as part of the immortality procedure? Need2check
Socrates says the most important thing is Eternal beauty. He says Eros as God presides over Eternity and Beauty.
Eros as a God is stated to be the first in regards to being and motivation and life. Cant get the quote rn so double check.
Daimonia are more present in Orphism and are more invoved in the way Socrates Daimon is invoved.
Socrates was also very vividly descriptive of Divine Madness which orphics deeply associated with Dionysus, the whole Phanes(Eros) to Zeus to Dionysus link is the most important (Nyx needs to be mentioned more but we)
Which reminds me of the comparison between Orphisms Phanes (Light and Before Time) and the Kabbala Ohr Ein Sof (before time God) and the passing of the Scepter to the Emanations(Sefirot). Kabbala also alludes towards reincarnation and is "eastern coded" like Orphism. Dionysian resurrection akin to Shattering, and the Titan nature of man kin to Kelippot

This is a very "alchemical" link and since Soc was a verbal type and there was little written in Athens at the time (plus Soc didnt travel much) I see this as Soc being one of the first major archetypal-occultists/alchemists/esotericists of Athens along with Heraclitus and Pythagoras and simply being too far ahead of his time


The only real question would be could the paralels of Phanes and Eros been made after Soc in response to his talks? Those cults didnt jave a century to them at the time.
Replies: >>24490267
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 6:56:06 PM No.24490203
Omg
Replies: >>24490212
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 6:59:43 PM No.24490212
>>24490203
wtf??
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 7:21:05 PM No.24490267
>>24490161
>tldr; Diotima said Eros was a Daimon due to his transformative nature that was liminal
But the transformation in the Symposium is much more constrained by whether one can lay hold of wisdom of the Good and have it forever. Diotima denies human immortality in her speeches, mortals can only have immortality through reproduction (206e-207d) or by making something, like poems, that make your name immortal (208c-209e).

>Socrates says the most important thing is Eternal beauty.
What dialogue are you thinking of? In the Phaedrus, Socrates in his myth says that the Beautiful is the same down here as that among the hyperuranians. In the Symposium, daimonic Eros is of the Good, not the Beautiful, until the ladder of love passage. In the Republic, the crucial thing is a vision of the Good, not the Beautiful. These differences and modulations would need to be sorted out. Further, how would deal with the totally contrary take on Eros in the Republic, where it's not treated as important for philosophizing, but is ratger just a bodily appetite?

>Socrates was also very vividly descriptive of Divine Madness
In the Phaedrus, sure, but isn't that qualified by the whole discussion afterward of rhetoric? Socrates is speaking to a young man who associates with the sophist Hippias, loves the rhetoric of Lysias, and tends toward impiety (and historically, Phaedrus and his boyfriend Eryximachus were both charged with profaning the Mysteries with Alcibiades). Isn't that more suggestive of Socrates practicing what his myth is about, and giving Phaedrus an image of himself to restrain him from getting into trouble to the best of Socrates' ability (see 255d)?
Replies: >>24490316
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 7:44:31 PM No.24490316
>>24490267
>Diotima denies human immortality in her speeches, mortals can only have immortality through reproduction (206e-207d) or by making something, like poems, that make your name immortal (208c-209e).
Socrates doesn't though, the conclusion to me seems like Soc was inspired by some merger of Orphism that he interpreted from Diotima or reinterpreted from, do we have any other writings on Eros from Diotima besides Soc? Its a pretty weird conjecture either way, but Socs conclusion was ultimately that Eros was a God.
>In the Symposium, daimonic Eros is of the Good, not the Beautiful, until the ladder of love passage.
This is more Diotimas interpretation right, which I assume Socrates was associating somewhat with an Orphic view?
Socrates says Beauty is the Eternal pursuit in Symposium which I dont know if he was quoting Diotima or asserting himself with that.
Eros is also considered a metaphysical 'force' in the Republic isnt he? Akin to a 'drive for living' or primordial cause for being which befits future Hermetic writings (and some Egyptian/Indian of the time). Its a passion for being, doing, manifesting.
Conspiracy: The assertions of Unity in Orphism that would befit Socrates usage of "singular-God" (vs Gods) which was quite odd at the time. Orphism having the whole 'pantheism/monism' as a centerpiece strikes me as the most likely reason for his use of it, and I dont personally know/notice any other users of "singular-God" like that before Socrates (there were after his death)
>Isn't that more suggestive of Socrates practicing what his myth is about, and giving Phaedrus an image of himself to restrain him from getting into trouble to the best of Socrates' ability
Socrates was a 'pseudo elitist' who probably didn't care for equity which most likely stems from his hyper individualizing conversation and learning patterns

Overall, seems like a plausible answer to the Socratic Question.
Replies: >>24490677
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 8:34:50 PM No.24490458
Where do I learn about orphism and it's possible connection to socrates
Replies: >>24490590 >>24490617
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 9:19:11 PM No.24490590
>>24490458
Google
Replies: >>24490595
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 9:20:31 PM No.24490595
>>24490590
lol no Google is fucking trash now
Replies: >>24490613
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 9:24:42 PM No.24490611
>>24488846
LMAO
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 9:25:40 PM No.24490613
>>24490595
chatGPT search?
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 9:26:38 PM No.24490617
5317ed2c8c6713f191afc799c06c37d8
5317ed2c8c6713f191afc799c06c37d8
md5: 2aca51ef0bcd9dc171af97f9281bb3a0🔍
>>24490458
>orphism
That's the best video I can offer for you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG2TBst3PG0
Replies: >>24490790
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 9:50:58 PM No.24490677
>>24490316
>Socrates doesn't though
Well one problem you'll run into by rejecting Diotima too strongly is that Socrates follows up by saying:
"Here, Phaedrus and you others, is what Diotima declared and what I am convinced of. And in this state of conviction, I try to persuade others that for this possession one could not easily get a better co-worker with human nature than Eros. Accordingly, I assert that every real man must honor Eros, as I myself honor erotics and train myself exceptionally in them; and I urge it on the rest, and now and always I eulogize the power and courage of Eros as far as I am able. Regard this speech, then, Phaedrus, if you want to, as spoken in eulogy of Eros; but if not, and your pleasure is to give it some other kind of name, so name it."
Now that conviction may not be of everything she apparently said, but the larger part of that speech denies that Eros is a god, denies immortality exceppt through reproduction and fame, and denies that Eros is of the Beautiful. At some point you'd have to square Socrates' claim about his conviction with what you seem to take from Phaedrus or elsewhere.

>This is more Diotimas interpretation right, which I assume Socrates was associating somewhat with an Orphic view?
Socrates is much more clear that he agrees with Diotima's claim about the Good and the Beautiful, he refutes Agathon on this point and starts talking about Diotima to explain how he came to that view.
I don't think it's clear at all that Diotima is associated with Orphism. She's absolutely fictional, made up by Socrates (or Plato's Socrates), a sign being that her speech one-by-one refutes every previous speaker's points, including an aside about being whole that's aimed at Aristophanes so explicitly that he's about to argue with Socrates over it at the end of that speech. But in any case, I don't see any Orphism in that speech, it's as Orphic as Hesiod is.

>Socrates says Beauty is the Eternal pursuit in Symposium which I dont know if he was quoting Diotima or asserting himself with that.
No, that's the ladder of love passage at the end of Diotima's speech, but the whole build up to that shows that the Good is more important than the Beautiful, that the lover of the Good gets happiness, while the lover of the Beautiful doesn't get anything clear. Even the end of her speech ends with a set of questions, which Socrates doesn't share his own response to, while he's more emphatic to Agathon about the earlier parts of the speech.

>Eros is also considered a metaphysical 'force' in the Republic isnt he
No, it's just an appetite to be suppressed or controlled, and the tyrannical soul ends up being called "Eros incarnate".
Replies: >>24490798
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 9:51:19 PM No.24490678
777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777
>>24488673 (OP)
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 10:28:01 PM No.24490771
d7545f1774fb61c4601fa4ca15247a38
d7545f1774fb61c4601fa4ca15247a38
md5: 050b73d96159c4d1f060ffa68c1fe414🔍
>>24488673 (OP)
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 10:36:03 PM No.24490790
>>24490617
>Plato wrote that Orphics had a PR problem and bothered the wealthy
>Socrates mentions wanting to meet Orpheus in Hades
where does he get those sources?
Replies: >>24490798 >>24490800 >>24490911
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 10:39:12 PM No.24490798
>>24490677
IMO all that is just the issue of
>a. everything is personal and different per person
>b. no one ever agrees to anything and Socrates isn't dogmatic
>c. people are flexible with words
>d. the writers did not understand the subtext/context fully when writing
>e. people are just complex, especially geniuses
Not much else to be said without falling into speculative loops
although I would like sources for >>24490790
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 10:39:29 PM No.24490800
>>24490790
Why do you care
Replies: >>24490811
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 10:43:44 PM No.24490811
>>24490800
rude ass ayy lmao
Replies: >>24490814
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 10:45:19 PM No.24490814
>>24490811
Tell us why you type this stuff, are you a marxist or something?
Anonymous
6/23/2025, 11:29:53 PM No.24490911
>>24490790
>>Socrates mentions wanting to meet Orpheus in Hades
>where does he get those sources?
Nta, and I don't have any patience for YT videos on mysticism, but Socrates talks at the end of the Apology about wanting to meet and talk with Orpheus (and Musaeus, Homer, and Hesiod) if there's an afterlife.
Replies: >>24491150
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 1:01:40 AM No.24491150
>>24490911
you don't want to learn then? shouldn't have give you the video, faggot

what a waste of time, sometimes not helping is good
Replies: >>24491179
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 1:18:55 AM No.24491179
>>24491150
I wasn't the one asking, and there's nothing to learn from loosey goosey cranks on YouTube who twist every author into vomiting New Age babble, retard
Replies: >>24491241
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 1:32:32 AM No.24491204
>>24488673 (OP)
Plato's Allegory of the Cave is massively overrated and not particularly profound.
Replies: >>24491237
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 1:46:28 AM No.24491237
>>24491204
Wrong statement
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 1:49:26 AM No.24491241
1697957631563337
1697957631563337
md5: 2368e2564732a49a7c71aa396df909bb🔍
>>24491179
you are trying to be edge but you ARE RETARD
Replies: >>24491387
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 1:50:13 AM No.24491242
>>24488690
me when i fill in a metaphor with my own tokens and then lambast others who use it differently
Replies: >>24491387
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 2:04:29 AM No.24491277
abd10e12d7d52f1c0af71365122def77
abd10e12d7d52f1c0af71365122def77
md5: 66f5b2ffa6515171b9b3cdca33a48b31🔍
>>24488673 (OP)
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 2:57:33 AM No.24491387
images
images
md5: dc45383a9389806b43d45f213565bd01🔍
>>24491242
You don't have a "different" take, you just copypaste AI slop and call it a day, you've never had an original thought or thought for yourself in your life. Drown in the Ganges.

>>24491241
>YOU ARE RETARD SAAR
>YOU ARE RETARD
>I NO BE USING INDEFINITE ARTICLES BLOODY BENCHOD BITCH
>SHOW BOB AND VAGINE
>DOOOOOO NOOOOT REDEEEEEEEEEEEEM
Replies: >>24491403
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 3:03:22 AM No.24491403
>>24491387
Kill yourself kike
Replies: >>24491438
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 3:29:16 AM No.24491438
check-is-good-friday-still-good-in-india-67fdfcdb5238d_600
>>24491403
>KYS SAAR
>KYS TO JOIN PAJESUS
Replies: >>24491543
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 4:29:06 AM No.24491543
542f219d8eea57d5bc6a1929fd9503c1
542f219d8eea57d5bc6a1929fd9503c1
md5: c4e9fb089b00a4259efb816e6ae5ff93🔍
>>24491438
Replies: >>24491577
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 4:44:15 AM No.24491577
Baphomet_by_Éliphas_Lévi
Baphomet_by_Éliphas_Lévi
md5: efefe5eb82b6ec15b01e2aee61dbd1f9🔍
>>24491543
>I BELIEVE IN GOD SAAR
>MY MERCIFUL GOD PAJEESUS
>HE HAS SIX ARMS AND THE HEAD OF ELEPHANT
>HE IS MOST EFFICIENT AT CALL CENTER SAAR
Replies: >>24491584 >>24491597
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 4:47:22 AM No.24491584
>>24491577
you are fucking satanist, no worse fate than that
Replies: >>24491614
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 4:57:34 AM No.24491597
66666666666666666
66666666666666666
md5: 781fd9022dfeb6e98934ae6e6e09e95f🔍
>>24491577
Replies: >>24491614
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 5:06:42 AM No.24491614
>>24491584
>>24491597
You shit in the streets, you're already in hell every day. (In India.)
Replies: >>24491618
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 5:08:56 AM No.24491618
>>24491614
Hell is a peace of mind
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 5:36:42 AM No.24491691
1729289623466878
1729289623466878
md5: 5fcbcec76d6b073c3d9dffb5b1261110🔍
>>24488673 (OP)
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 5:55:30 AM No.24491728
>>24488673 (OP)
>thought experiments
It's more real than that. Money and institutions, sacrifices for gods... All vanity of the ape.
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 5:56:00 AM No.24491729
8a5e4992db6fdbc4d3ec0c74c6774de5
8a5e4992db6fdbc4d3ec0c74c6774de5
md5: d7f05c71b5b901949fdfaddb0d6b27aa🔍
>>24488673 (OP)
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 6:02:41 AM No.24491740
>>24488677
Has there been any philosopher who suggest we remain in the cave because its dangerous otherwise? Not asking a stupid question just genuinely curious.
Replies: >>24491747 >>24491811
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 6:06:49 AM No.24491747
>>24491740
In Plato's allegory itself, the freed prisoner initially suffers from the bright light and struggles to see. It takes time to adjust. A philosopher could argue that prematurely exposing people to a harsh or complex reality without adequate preparation or a framework for understanding could be detrimental, leading to confusion, despair, or even violence. The "danger" is the overwhelming nature of unfiltered truth.
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 6:35:20 AM No.24491810
c457947b6bdc6ec4bcc50b780b03b0d4
c457947b6bdc6ec4bcc50b780b03b0d4
md5: a07eed3d3fc8c0d9d8cc7a99fbc69a32🔍
>>24488673 (OP)
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 6:35:38 AM No.24491811
>>24491740
I think that's an unstated premise of the cave. Exiting the cave is only good for the naturally curious and inquisitive, but the rest of the citizens of the city discussed in the Republic don't have the capacity to leave (= live with the truth, there's some relevant parallels to Nietzsche on that). The puppeteers we tend to take as evil or malicious, but Socrates earlier in the Republic has already promoted teaching falsehoods as long as they're beneficial. The man who philosophizes doesn't have time to devote to making his own shoes or growing his own food, and vice versa, so the implicit deal of the cave is that the puppeteers and returnees from outside try not to compel anyone to leave who aren't already trying to loosen their shackles.
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 11:02:09 AM No.24492203
>anons casually resolving the Socratic problem while the rest argue about AI
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 1:31:50 PM No.24492314
>>24488772
Fucking hell, I need you AI fags to piss off; whenever I use an em dash in a post people think I'm ChatGPT now.

>sage
Replies: >>24492504
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 3:55:51 PM No.24492504
>>24492314
Not me
Anonymous
6/24/2025, 7:05:32 PM No.24492869
87b77781ae4334497733fa310ba432ab
87b77781ae4334497733fa310ba432ab
md5: 8e768051500db21d3c4fd01e50ac63fa🔍
>>24488673 (OP)