Thread 24503350

>what if I stumble across a diamond??
>what if mudpies
>checkmate gommies!
how come every attempted deboonker of Capital hasn't even read the first three pages? are reactionaries really that incapable of reading? I can understand "what if water in a desert?" because that isn't covered until vol II
also Garl Marks thread

so yeah we're in the same thing but i will never see you again, hypothetically

sorry but i stll dont get how a gommie society is suppoed to be run.

>>24503350 (OP)
>I certainly don't think any of Marx's work is above critique but the overwhelming majority of people you've ever seen bitching about Marx have undeniably never, ever read his work, including the anime nazi "intellectuals".
>It's funny, the only people to ACTUALLY read his shit before critiquing it from the right are all Buckley/National Review-type "conservative intellectuals", all of whom were either forced to bend the knee to Trump or ran out of the GOP to become pathetic, irrelevant Never Trumpers.

>>24503350 (OP)
So where do I start with this guy?

ok, but why do you need the other two lodgers? who are these two guys from the future?

>>24503350 (OP)
>communist law of lit: all threads that are about marx generally(his personality, life, communism in general) will be shit. threads about a specific aspect of marx (so and so's interpretation of [Y], any books except the manifesto, marxism's influence in [X] country or art) will usually be high quality

>>24503363
i-i-uh we'll figure something out, OK? and if it won't work out we'll just try again 100 years later

>>24503431
>So where do I start with this guy?
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/
about 20 pages each, summarizes much of Capital
>>24503363
>sorry but i stll dont get how a gommie society is suppoed to be run.
planning. calculation in kind replaces exchange

>>24503350 (OP)
What if a product fails to sell and the entrepreneur has to lower the price to a loss? Did the workers produce negative value and he has a claim to get some of their salary back?

I actually have a copy of Das kapital and it's 3,000 pages to the effect of
>Herr Smith-Bowens believes that use value is prima facie independent of market price; how in err he is!
It's all just him seething at economists of the time

>>24503350 (OP)
Meh. Unfortunately for you, the world doesn't run on Marxist economics and trade exists outside of third world shitholes.

>>24503888
>What if a product fails to sell and the entrepreneur has to lower the price to a loss?
commodities that are produced above demand have no value. the labour that went into this excess supply was simply squandered
>>24503888
Marx throwing shade on the bourgeois economists of his time is a welcome break from what is otherwise a highly dry and technical text
>>24503996
it does doe. no theory better explains prices than what Marx lays out in Capital

>>24504029
Yeah but that's not how the global economy works. Maybe internally, but not externally. Unless you're one of those Trotskyite goofballs that want a one world government. If that's the case, you need help.

>>24504029
LTV is actual religious nonsense. Your “material” ideology thinks that products have a magical value imbued within them. Idk how you can say it’s a good descriptor.

>>24504029
>commodities that are produced above demand have no value. the labour that went into this excess supply was simply squandered
But you only know that after the value has been/failed to be realized on the market, right? Then profiting from labor should not be deemed "exploitation", because the capitalist doesn't know it will be profitable.
If value is objectively imparted through labor and skimmed off by the capitalist on profit, where does it go on loss?

>>24503372
>everyone who dislikes marxism is a burgerclap
This was typed by hands so bloated they can't be distinguished from feet.

>>24504029
>commodities that are produced above demand have no value.
demand depends on price, take an economics class, dopey

>>24503756
planning what? There are trillion things you cant plan for.

>>24504104
One trillion people will plan things out, the 1 or 2 humans left will do them all!

>>24504063
>Your “material” ideology thinks that products have a magical value imbued within them.
value is a social relation between people.
read the section on commodity fetishism

>>24504134
read an econ textbook, marx is a kook

>>24504057
>Maybe internally, but not externally
what does this even mean? Marx talks about the totality of the economy, which means the world economy
>>24504063
it predicts prices with very high accuracy. it is a perfectly testable theory. go read the academic literature on the subject
>>24504090
>But you only know that after the value has been/failed to be realized on the market, right?
correct
>Then profiting from labor should not be deemed "exploitation", because the capitalist doesn't know it will be profitable
whether the capitalist knows if production will be profitable or not has no bearing on whether the workers were exploited or not. what we can say is that when an excess is produced then no value was produced and therefore no surplus value and no exploitation was done for that excess supply. this is why for example workers in the global south are not "overexploited" as proponents of unequal exchange claim, but rather the opposite. the most exploited workers often have the best working conditions. see for example differences in the mining industry across countries. the most productive workers control robots from air conditioned control rooms, whereas the least productive, least exploited work with shovels and picks in grueling conditions
>If value is objectively imparted through labor and skimmed off by the capitalist on profit, where does it go on loss?
such value comes from other, more productive workers
>>24504097
>le supply and demand
boo get new material

>>24504148
i have a degree in economics lol

>>24504148
how about you read a book, chvddie

>>24503350 (OP)
Okay. How many pencils does the gubmint have to make?

>>24504240
then how did u not know the labor theory of value was developed by ricardo and not marx?

>>24504260
Die

>>24503442
The best discussions on Marx take place in threads on fascism.

>>24503372
More anime nazi intellectuals have probably read Marx than self-professed communists.

>>24504516
>anime nazi intellectuals
>reading
nigga they jerk off to short substack entries and vril edits not to books

>>24503350 (OP)
I started reading this shit, and the first chapter was literally redefining basic concepts to suit his terms, then I realized all leftists arguments are literally that. It’s not racism because we defined racism to only be against browns and blacks, and it’s it imperialism if a non-western country does it. Marx and his ilk feel very disingenuous and lacking of a proper view of modern society. Maybe in the 19th century sure, but modern capitalism is all about market cap instead of profit.

>>24504689
>literally redefining basic concepts
for example

>>24503350 (OP)

What does Marxism have to do with a predatory ape physically specialized for endurance running and throwing rocks? And yeah, I get "what does capitalism" have to do with that, but what does Marxism have to do with it?

>>24503363
Every major supermarket chain already has the logistics in place for a command economy with a central authority adjusting prices and other such things based on whatever data they look at, it happened a long time ago politics and the people just have to catch up

>>24505139
people are reading "the people's republic of walmart".
it's been so long since my chuddie nazbol forum went down that i almost forgot about that book. thanks for reminding me.

>>24504352
i have a terrible suspicion that you are infact telling the truth

>>24503350 (OP)
None of it is covered. Marx just makes up excuses for why you should use a non-empirical definition of value that a-priori assumes exploitation. He never answers any questions he just waves them away.

This is why only low IQ people become Marxists, which in turn is why every Marxian project fails. The proof of the failure of his analysis is that it has no predictive power. The burden of proof is on the Communist to explain why Capital, a system supposedly in decline for the last 200 years, is now stronger than it has ever been before after a global push to overthrow it. Why is the natural revolution not happening despite the excesses of the modern day exceeding in strict terms the excesses of the gilded age by an order of magnitude?

Where is the revolution? There is none, because class consciousness isn't real. QRD.

>>24505911
>a non-empirical definition of value
t. has not read Capital
>every Marxian project fails
nice bait

>>24503350 (OP)
communism is jewish. hitler was right.

>>24505911
Capitalism and Communism were sublate into socialism with Chinese characteristics. The Old Dynasty of Amerikka will slowly fade into obscurity as China uses markets to liberate the forces of production while maintaining its status as a manufacturing powerhouse due to central planning of heavy industry. They have simultaneously achieved a highly efficient and meritocratic form of governance with political ascendancy based on competence and real party work instead of winning through a distorted travesty of a democratic election as well as high cultural homogeneity, faith in government, and belief in the ultimate value of SOCIALISM as an end goal. SY what you will about China’s capitalist tendencies, but the dominant party line headed by Xi has socialism as a clear goal, not to mention the Maoist faction which pushes for a more rapid return to socialism. Marxist-Leninism as an area of academic study and ideological foundation is as strong as ever in China.

>>24503363
It can't run a society. Thats why it failed everywhere it was implemented despite what bunkertrannies like OP would want you to think.

>>24505923
>muh Chyna
They are communist in aesthetics only. They have billionaire oligarchs, corporations that in practice are private and wealth inequality. Also your pic is wrong since Blumpf completely humiliated them

>>24506023
>thinking there's any contradiction in communist billionaires

>>24506018
>It failed
By what criteria? It didn't bring prosperity and security to the pre-revolution peasant masses? It was betrayed by opportunistic cretins who brought back barbarity of capitalism? what is the criteria here?

>>24506004

None of what you said is true. What's actually true is that China uses slave labor.

>>24506084
>ackshully, weath being concentrated in an unproductive owner class and not being distributed among the workers as the fruits of their labor is communism because CHYNA does it, CHUD!
I thought the luceposter tradcath on /his/ was the dumbest person on this website but thank you for proving me wrong.
>>24506100
By the fact that it failed to achieve its end of communism, and in every case degraded into an oligarchy where the wealth disparity between worker and ruler was so steep that it would make what we have now seem closer to real communism than any communist nation ever was. Its completely dishonest to say that it was opportunists who betrayed the ideology when this very same thing has happened everywhere it was tried, it means that there is something fundamentally wrong with what was being implemented.

>>24506369
sorry I can't hear you over the sound of my productive forces

>>24504334
Not that Anon, but I wouldn't be surprised if somebody with a degree in a certain subject didn't know about the inventor or originator of a certain idea. I couldn't tell you the names of half of the people who came up with famous mathematical theorems I use every day unless they're Newton, Laplace, Euler, Gauß, or Riemann. Most of what you do in a degree program outside the Humanities is not to memorize names, but rather to memorize formulas and definitions. Names are quickly forgotten, especially when you come across more than 100 different ones per week, all of which never appear again.

>>24506492
>Posts a picture of a capitalist leader of China enjoying a rodeo in Texas
You lost.

>>24504172
Then what does exploitation even mean? Why use a word with clearly negative moral connotation if all you mean to say by it is that surplus value was created?
Why is the worker credited with creating the surplus value if it does sell, but not responsible if it doesn't, when in both cases all he did is perform an amount of labor for an agreed-upon wage?

>>24504172
>>le supply and demand
>boo get new material
I must admit, you expose yourself as a retard in remarkably few words.

>>24506004
>They have simultaneously achieved a highly efficient and meritocratic form of governance with political ascendancy based on competence
This has to be bait.

>>24506084
>From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs
You drooling fucking retard.

>>24506004
based and SwCC pilled
>>24506689
wants != needs
>>24506576
>a word with clearly negative moral connotation
Marx means "exploitation" in the same sense that say an oil well is exploited. by no means was Marx some kind of moralfag. the choice of words also serves a didactic purpose. "rate of surplus value" doesn't have the same punch as "rate of exploitation"
>Why is the worker credited with creating the surplus value if it does sell, but not responsible if it doesn't, when in both cases all he did is perform an amount of labor for an agreed-upon wage?
material interests

Marxism collapses without LTV, and LTV has been thoroughly deboonked by finance capital being the most profitable engine ever.
>>24506703
Shitty meme. Morality is a good thing.

>>24506819
Marx talks about finance capital all the time you booklet

I'm almost convinced "Marxists" are pure trolls.

>>24506369
>every case degraded into an oligarchy where the wealth disparity between worker and ruler was so steep that it would make what we have now seem closer to real communism than any communist nation ever was
I can't tell if this is some kind of joke that went over my head or something. Do you have any idea why the russian commie party elite dissolved the soviet union? Here's a hint: it wasn't because they wanted less stuff
Homelessness was practically non-existent in the soviet union (actually in the case of gypsies they were literally forced to not be homeless.) Party elites lived in nicer apartments than most, ate fruit and got to drive cars, they basically lived like middle class americans

>>24506829
>Marx talks about finance capital all the time you booklet
ok? That doesn't address my point. Finance capital is the most most profitable engine ever which directly contradicts LTV.

>>24506975
where do you think that profit originates from, genius? thin air?

>>24507009
Credit and speculation. Not labor.

>>24506837
They're poseurs who crave attention, that's for sure.
Notice how OP is an avatar fag.

>>24506492
>uses a pic of the guy that dragged china kicking and screaming into open markets and capitalist policies, and in doing so brought them unimaginable wealth, development, power and eliminated poverty

>>24507084
China is the absolute poster child for capitalism.
From mass starvation under Mao to the hundreds of millions who were lifted out of povery since Deng Xiaoping - the progression speaks for itself.

>>24507434
>>24507084
>Market = capitalism
>planning = socialism
These are not necessary connections. Both economic system contain elements of markets and planning.

>>24506540
>Tiananmen Square Massacre was done by a capitalist
This is a confusing game of: Maoist Retard or Libertarian Cuckold?

>>24503350 (OP)
>are reactionaries really that incapable of reading?

>>24507040
and what do you think the causal mechanism behind that is? Marx assumes perfect exchange, so no value can be created by "cheating" people out of their money. exchange is value preserving. what then is the "pump" that injects new value into the system, in your theory?
>>24507084
>completely ignoring the role of the Party
>>24507511
there was no massacre at Tiananmen Square, retard. but people like Chai Ling certainly wanted a massacre to happen
>>24507542
I read von Mises and Hayek. can't say the same about any lolbert I've talked to viz Marx