Thread 24508154

Iliad >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aeneid > Odyssey

>>24508154 (OP)
That is a most interesting helmet
Looks light and agile yet forcedistributing

>>24508154 (OP)
Is this meme supposed to be a Prigozhin/Iliad mashup?

The aeneid is fantastic if you're a trojan fan (you should be after reading the illiad) I like the odyssey but it loses points for the last few books before they kill the suitors

>>24508154 (OP)
The Odyssey really is a disappointment compared to the Iliad. There is considerable doubt over whether they were composed by the same person. TE Lawrence (who translated the Odyssey) thought not.

>>24508357
Should I skip over it and straight into aeneid

>>24508222
Yeah, don't know how you didn't recognized Prigozhin's goblin face.

>>24508340
I'm both a greek and trojan fan. Fuck Helena and Paris.

>>24508518
Definitely not since the first 6 books of The Aeneid are heavily inspired by The Odyssey.

>>24508518
I wouldn't, since it's so important and influential. Grit your teeth and slog through the duller parts.

>>24508154 (OP)
ARMA virumque cano, Troiae qui primus ab oris Italiam, fato profugus, Laviniaque venit litora, multum ille et terris iactatus et alto vi superum saevae memorem Iunonis ob iram; multa quoque et bello passus, dum conderet urbem, inferretque deos Latio, genus unde Latinum, Albanique patres, atque altae moenia Romae. Musa, mihi causas memora, quo numine laeso, quidve dolens, regina deum tot volvere casus insignem pietate virum, tot adire labores impulerit. Tantaene animis caelestibus irae? Urbs antiqua fuit, Tyrii tenuere coloni, Karthago, Italiam contra Tiberinaque longe ostia, dives opum studiisque asperrima belli; quam Iuno fertur terris magis omnibus unam posthabita coluisse Samo; hic illius arma, hic currus fuit; hoc regnum dea gentibus esse, si qua fata sinant, iam tum tenditque fovetque. Progeniem sed enim Troiano a sanguine duci audierat, Tyrias olim quae verteret arces; hinc populum late regem belloque superbum

>>24508620
>Arma- Neutral (empty void), weapons, armies, arms
>Virumque- Of men :[que: and]: and of men]
>Cano- I sing
>Troiae- of troy [feminine and wandering]
>qui- Those men [subject]
>ab- from, away from
>Oris- from, by, to, for shores
>Italiam- Italy object of sentence
>fato- fate, destiny, divine utterance, death, doom, gods will (from, for, to, by)
>profugus- exile or exiled (subject singular)
>laviniaque- lavinian: (que) and lavinian: directly describes litora
>venit- reacheth, arriveth, visiteth, entereth
>litora- shores

>>24508580
>Helena
she didn't even want to be there

>>24508675
>multum- great, much, multitude, (object of sentence singular)
>ille- that (subject of sentence implicitly masculine)
>et- and
>terris- earth, land (plural) (by, for, from, to)
>iactatus- having been (thrown, tossed about, driven, disturbed, harassed)
>et- and
>alto- the deep, high, exalted, tall, lofty, remote; (for, from, to, by)
>vi- through violence
>superum- of gods above
>saevae- fierce, savage, violent, cruel (feminine subject plural, or genitive meaning "of")
>memorem- memory, unforgotten (object corresponds with multum)
>Iunonis- of Juno
Ob- against
>iram- anger, wrath, violence, spite, offence, crime (object of sentence corresponds with memorem and multum)

>>24508675
>multum- great, much, multitude, (object of sentence singular)
>ille- that (subject of sentence implicitly masculine)
>et- and
>terris- earth, land (plural) (by, for, from, to)
>iactatus- having been (thrown, tossed about, driven, disturbed, harassed)
>et- and
>alto- the deep, high, exalted, tall, lofty, remote; (for, from, to, by)
>vi- through violence
>superum- of gods above
>saevae- fierce, savage, violent, cruel (feminine subject plural, or genitive meaning "of")
>memorem- memory, unforgotten (object corresponds with multum)
>Iunonis- of Juno
>Ob- against
>iram- anger, wrath, violence, spite, offence, crime (object of sentence corresponds with memorem and multum)

>>24508620
Meh. Doesn't even rhyme.
>Arms, and the man I sing, who forc'd by fate,
>And haughty Juno's unrelenting hate;
>Expell'd and exil'd, left the Trojan Shoar:
>Long labours, both by sea and land he bore;
>And in the doubtful War, before he won
>The Latian realm, and built the destin'd town:
>His banish'd Gods restor'd to Rites Divine,
>And setl'd sure succession in his line:
>From whence the race of Alban fathers come,
>And the long Glories of majestic Rome.
There is no poem that cannot benefit from translation into English.

>>24508620
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD_MKoaQUmY

>>24508847
kangtastic

>>24508847
Thats just some turkish folk band or something this is what scientists think roman music sounded like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWfVdmQEO_w

>>24508154 (OP)
who is that ugly monkey used for the cancermeme?

>>24508878
he sings following the meter and with correct pronunciation that's what matters

>>24508899
theres a hundred thousand ways to do that

>>24508904

there are only a few ways to compose the fragmented writings of lucan though possibly or potentially or potentiality possible or something in that mannerist manner that might be called mannerist where is man ray now it might be said or where is patroclus for he has been slain and that armor taken for the moment

>>24508943
Wow youre really pretentious

>>24508878
Authentic means it was played obnoxiously flat by rural retards, pretty dreamless to an orpheus, they wrote it was played on the beach by "the rapping of the waves on a coast"
>>24508847 honorable mention to the turks and their famously dogshit nails on a chalk board music

>>24508222
It makes no sense however the situation is completely different from Prigozhin

>>24508705
She definitely did. You have not read enough greeks, specially the tragedies.

>>24508952
now that is a name i have not heard in a long time a long time

>>24509701
So Homer was wrong about Helen?

>>24510566
No. But you may be confusing what the characters believe and what Homer is saying. The greek characters think she was kidnapped, thus why the war, but Helena herself says that she FOLLOWED Paris in book 3.
This is even made more clear in Tragedies like Hecuba or Andromache.

>>24510631
And when did she ever show she liked being there?

>>24510671
How is that related with anything? We are discussing if it was a kidnap or consensual. There is a clear consensus that she wasn't kidnapped. This is a key element of the tragedy of The Iliad: The greeks think she was kidnapped, but in reality she went there on purpose.

>"My heart grieves for the pain I have brought on both sides, for the grief I’ve caused—Paris and I, the ones the gods drove mad..."

>>24510913
>We are discussing if it was a kidnap or consensual.
Since when?
>I'm both a greek and trojan fan. Fuck Helena and Paris.
Clearly she showed remorse after being there. It's Paris and Aphrodite who's keeping her there

>>24510918
She felt remorse and then when the greeks finally invaded Troy she acted like she was kidnapped. Doesn't sound very redeemable to me.

>>24510962
She didn't just pretend for the Greeks though. She also showed that stance to Paris and Aphrodite

>>24510967
>She also showed that stance to Paris and Aphrodite
Can you say in which verse did Helen said to Paris or Aphrodite that she was kidnapped?

>>24510973
why are you creating your own goalpost?

>>24510976
I'm not. Please try to keep up a simple discussion.
>(Me) four posts above: She acted like she was kidnapped
>(You) three posts above: She didn't just pretend for the Greeks though. She also showed that stance to Paris and Aphrodite
With this you are saying that:
1- Helen pretended that she was kidnapped for the Paris and Aphrodite. Where is that in Homer?
2- Helen was pretending. Then what's the point of this conversation?

>>24510988
>She didn't just pretend for the Greeks though. She also showed that stance to Paris and Aphrodite
That was referring to the remorse

>>24510990
Well I have never negated the remorse in Troy. What I'm criticizing, if you have not been able to understand it, is the act of going to Troy, which caused a war. I don't care if she felt remorse, that does not make it lovely for her to lie to even her own people.
Also, I'm pretty sure she did lie to the greeks and didn't show remorse to them. She told them Paris kidnapped her.

>>24508705
>Abducting young women, in their [the Greeks'] opinion, is not indeed a lawful act; but it is stupid after the event to make a fuss about it. The only sensible thing is to take no notice; for it is obvious that no young woman allows herself to be abducted if she does not wish to be.
Herodotus disagrees.

>>24509482
>mentioning an unperson
Careful anon, you might disappear.

>>24511007
Homer is ambiguous on Helen's consent or lack thereof at the moment of her abduction. Paris did definitely steal treasures from Menelaus. In book 3 it doesn't look good if it's any indication how it initially happened.

She knew the goddess at once, the long lithe neck,
the smooth full breasts and the fire in those eyes-
and she was amazed, she burst out with her name:
"Maddening one, my Goddess, oh what now?
Lusting to lure me to my ruin yet again?
Where will you drive me next?
Off and away to other grand, luxurious cities,
out to Phrygia, out to Maeonia's tempting country?
Have you a favorite mortal man there too?
But why now?-
because Menelaus has beaten your handsome Paris
and hateful as I am, he longs to take me home?
Is that why you beckon here beside me now
with all the immortal cunning in your heart?
...
Not I. I'll never go back again. It would be wrong,
disgraceful to share that coward's bed once more.
...
But Aphrodite rounded on her in fury:
"Don't provoke me-wretched, headstrong girl!
Or in my immortal rage I may just toss you over,
hate you as I adore you now-with a vengeance.
I might make you the butt of hard, withering hate
from both sides at once, Trojans and Achaeans-
then your fate can tread you down to dust!"
So she threatened
and Helen the daughter of mighty Zeus was terrified.
Shrouding herself in her glinting silver robes
she went along, in silence.

>>24511634
Where's the rhymes

ever since reading the Bicameral Mind when there are scenes of mortals interacting with gods or seeing the gods doing things it comes off as schizophrenia to me.

>>24511649
Homer is explicit about characters having introspection, for one Hector debates with himself whether he should face Achilles or flee or offer Helen and treasures to end the war.

>>24511649
Don't worry, bicameral mind is bullshit, so you don't have to let it spoil anything

>>24511686
>>24511730
I read the bicameral mind after I read the iliad and the odyssey. Most of this perspective keeps coming up for me while reading the Aeneid so Aeneas comes off as a schizo sometimes.

>>24511649
Read Jung.
The greek gods are symbols of natural forces. When a god interacts with a human, it is simply that natural force interacting with said human, symbolized through a human being.

>>24512606
mmmmmh
what does Apollo symbolize?

>>24512953
Many things, but it heavily depends on context. Poetry, art, sickness, prophecy, the sun etc.
For example, book 1 of The Iliad says that Apollo struck the greek campament with his arrows. In ancient times, to be struck with Apollo's arrows meant to get sick. So the symbolism here is that Apollo did not literally kill the greeks with arrows, but that there was some contagious sickness going on in the greek campament.
Another example is when they mention the eye of Apollo rising, which is a poetic way to say that it's morning.

>>24512606
The way gods intervene in Homer often does reflect the phenomena they're affiliated with but not always.
>So Hector finished. The Trojans roared assent,
>lost in folly. Athena had swept away their senses.
>They gave applause to Hector's ruinous tactics.
>none to Polydamas, who gave them sound advice
Pretty clear example, Athena as goddess of wisdom and war is symbolic for the Trojans heeding Hector's bad counsel.
>Odysseus prayed in his heart to blazing-eyed Athena,
>"Hear me, Goddess, help me-hurry, urge me on!"
>So Odysseus prayed and Athena heard his prayer,
>put spring in his limbs, his feet, his fighting hands
>and just as the whole field came lunging in for the trophy
>Ajax slipped at a dead run-Athena tripped him up-
>right where the dung lay slick from bellowing cattle
Here Athena made Odysseus faster and made Ajax literally eat shit, there's not much symbolism to be had.

>>24513446
The thing is, gods are gods of many things, not only one. While Athena is the god of wisdom, and it wouldn't be wise to listen to bad counsel, she is also a god of war. Odysseus is also always favoured by Athena because he is a smart character, while Ajax is pure muscles.

>>24513463
>Jungian mythology
>only talks about Freud's craziest theory
>never once mentions anything Jung said
Also the text it's pretty wrong about the play. Laios was his biological father and Jocasta was his biological mother. That's the tragedy.

Captcha: JNGWD

>>24513676
the myth predates the play

>>24513703
Whoever wrote that is a gigantic pseud that has never read greek myth nor Jung. The myths clearly predate these advanced cities by hundreds of years, so why does it matter that these myths were written there? Homer was orally transmitted, for God's sake.

Also, Oedipus killing his father and marrying his mother was a thing even before Sophocles' play. It's even in homer, when Odysseus visits the Hades. Yet the guy you are citing says that this is completely fake and made up.
Citing Homer:
>Next I caught sight of Epicaste, mother of Oedipus—
mad folly!—who broke the law of the gods and married her own son.
But he killed his father first, then married her, and soon
the gods made the truth known to all mankind.
Still he suffered terribly, ruling the people of Thebes,
though down in the heart of Thebes he endured the worst
the gods could hurl at him. But Epicaste went to the strong house of Death,
the high gates closed behind her, once she’d tied a noose to a lofty beam,
and swung away in the anguish of her heart...
leaving her son to bear the unendurable—
all the guilt men will ever talk about.”

>>24513731
Writer is Robert Graves, you might remember him as the author of a compendium of Greek mythology.

>so why does it matter
reveals a misunderstanding of mythological traditions & evolution. Myths often exist in multiple versions, reflecting different cultural, historical, and regional contexts.
>Homer was orally transmitted
Oral doesn't equal primitive.

>>24513731
Writer is Robert Graves, you might remember him as the author of a compendium of Greek mythology.

>so why does it matter
reveals a misunderstanding of mythological traditions & evolution. Myths often exist in multiple versions, reflecting different cultural, historical, and regional contexts.
>Homer was orally transmitted
Oral doesn't equal primitive.

>>24513764
By primitive Jung does not mean neanderthals. By primitive Jung means a civilization that is yet not advanced. For example, some modern tribes would be primitive to Jung, and he even uses southamericans from the 1950s as an example. In this case, not being able to write your own myths is pretty primitive, don't you think? Even if there were advanced cities that wrote these myths afterwards, it doesn't matter because Jung is talking about their creation, not their distribution.
>Myths often exist in multiple versions, reflecting different cultural, historical, and regional contexts.
Sure. Yet both of the most popular versions of this myth include Oedipus killing his father and marrying his mother. One of these versions predating the writing of greek mythology itself. So, when talking about historically arguing mythology (as he says he is doing in the beginning of the first pic), how can he even say that the original myth was different when the earliest version we know was exactly what he is negating?
I'll cite your first picture:
>in the original story on which Freud's Oedipus comples theory is based, Oedipus neither killed his father nor lay with his mother
I guess by "original" he does not mean the oldest (Which would be the definition of the word original. By the oldest I mean Homer) or the most popular (Which is what Freud based his theory on. Sophocles), but some weird version that he cherrypicked.

P.s.: If I get trips then synchronicity is real and Freud is gay

>>24513812
When a mythologist uses the word 'original,' it rarely means the earliest surviving version because myths evolve orally for centuries before they’re recorded. By the original myth, they often mean a proto-version reconstructed through comparative mythology.

Even within classical sources, there are variant versions of myths, some older or less popular, that differ significantly. If Freud's theory is rooted in a version that postdates these variations, it’s fair to question whether the psychological resonance attributed to the myth might not apply universally.

>>24508154 (OP)
Divine Comedy >>>>>> the rest

>>24513874
I would like a source to that "original" version. But anyways:
1- It doesn't matter if an african 4009 years ago invented the myth a little bit different. The fact is that the primitive civilization of greece had the Oedipus myth as we have it today, even if it was different before. The myth was still created/changed by a primitive civilization, and the myth still has symbolism. And it was still used by an entire civilization for centuries. Can't you understand this? If you can't, then tell me, because it's completely useless to keep up this discussion. This is as ridiculous as saying
>Jesus' original myth is Isaias 53 and Exodus, and thus christianity doesn't has symbolism because it's not original. It's messages are irrelevant too because it's not the original story btw

2- Robert Graves in this picture is mixing cause and effect. Freud did not read Oedipus Rex and then made his theory from it. He made the theory first and then read Oedipus, and then he named his theory after the popular character.

>>24510631
But some other poet said that Helen wasn't really at Troy at all, only Helen's shadow. Plato mentions this in the Republic.

>>24514582
>I would like a source
I don't think you understand mythology at all. You can't apply a purely textual approach to a field that's fundamentally about pattern recognition across cultures.
>The myth was still created/changed by a primitive civilization, and the myth still has symbolism.
Actually, myths usually evolve and change due to political utility or adaptability. And cultural/literary changes are often shaped by societal values, artistic trends, and power dynamics, not just deep-seated psychological resonance. A science of myth should begin with a study of archaeology, history, and comparative religion, not in the psychotherapist's consulting room.

The Christianity analogy works against you, doesn't it? Because they aren't 'different versions,' they're part of the same canonical story. If anything, this shows how religious narratives ARE culturally specific rather than universal.

>>24514687
>You can't apply a purely textual approach
And where the hell did I say a textual source? I only asked for a source. If you say something, you need to have a cause to say it. If you don't have any kind of source or historical discovery, then why even answer with this crap? So the myth is different because... because you said it. Got it.
>Actually, myths usually evolve and change due to political utility or adaptability.
Zero correlation with my point.
>not in the psychotherapist's consulting room.
Again, zero correlation with my point. You got cause and effect as mixed as Robert Graves. Also you are thinking that I'm applying psychological effects to mythology when I never did that. Everything I said was the same as Plato: That mythology is symbolical.
We are discussing in circles now because you proudly claim that there is a magical version of Oedipus Rex without any trace in the internet, while Homer and Sophocles are wrong.

>The Christianity analogy works against you, doesn't it? Because they aren't 'different versions,' they're part of the same canonical story.
Okay I give up with you. I guess the Oedipus story that we know from Homer and made its way to Sophocles is not part of a canonical story or set of mythology. It lasted through 300 years and it influenced an entire civilization but nope, the true version is one that doesn't exists at all, so this guy is wrong when he applies his psychological studies to a character! Btw this has correlation to Jung somehow, according to (You).

>>24514907
Sorry, I meant 2800 years, not 300. 300 are the years between Homer and Sophocles but the story was around for a long time after that because of the play.

>>24514595
Herodotus hears from Egyptians that Helen spent the Trojan War in Egypt, but he also knows all about Homer's account, he doesn't want to rule either story out when there's no hard evidence either way, therefore phantom Helen.

>>24512606
What force picked up Aeneas and flung him to the other side of the battle field away from Achilles then?

>>24514595
You are right, but we were discussing Helen specifically in the homeric view. Helen being a shadow is post-homerica. Though if we keep going forward, then Helen is saw as the worst human possible in Virgil.

>>24514931
Well I'm not an expert in every single case of symbolism but here is my interpretation:
Poseidon is not only the god of the seas, but also the god of earthquakes. In fact, it is said: “Then Poseidon, Earthshaker, watching closely, had pity on Aeneas… So he rushed down, and lifted Aeneas out of danger, veiling him in thick mist, and set him far from the battle...”
See how he cleverly introduces him as "Poseidon, earthshaker" rather than "Poseidon, god of the seas"? Symbolically this could mean that Aeneas got lucky that an earthquake happened, or it could also mean that Aeneas escaped with a horse (Poseidon is also the god of horses)

>>24511649
>tfw Hylic intos Mythopoeia

>>24514907
>>24514916
Bit like asking an evolutionary biologist for a photo of the original mammal. I can show you this reconstruction of Pre-Hellenic traditions.

>Zero correlation with my point.
Myths survive because they're politically useful to the societies that tell them. Not because it reveals eternal human truths. I'd say that does correlate back to your argument. The core premise of why myths exist. Try to situate the myth within its historical and ritual context. An immense amount of work still has to be done before the great confused corpus of Greek myth can be properly classified. Political myths must be distinguished from ritual or calendar myths - and often they are closely interwoven (e.g. the Argonauts and the Odyssey).

You keep saying Homer and Sophocles as if they're primordial. Homer is 8th century BC. We have Hittite and Mesopotamian parallels going back to 1400 BCE that show these were political succession stories, not family psychology.

>300 are the years between Homer and Sophocles
The Homer who wrote the Odyssey probably lived much close to Sophocles. About three and a half centuries separates it from the Iliad.

By the Classical era and Plato, the Greeks had gone wrong. They tried to decry myth. They tried to put in its place what we would now call scientific concepts. They tried to give it a literal explanation. Socrates jokes about myths, and Horace makes fun of them. When put to it, Socrates could clarify a myth in a way that deprived it of all sense. They simply had no use for poetic thought.

>>24515001
For the last time: I am not asking for a textual source. I am also not asking for literally the original myth. I am asking for the source of the belief of Robert Graves that the myth was created differently than the oldest myth we got which is also the myth that prevailed through time.
Evolutionary speaking we can do an logical argument that, if we consider evolution real, then most animals should've come from the sea. Thus, the proto-mammal must be a creature that was an hybrid between the sea and the earth. Or maybe it's an evolution of said creature which could be an amphibian or a lizard or something that we don't even know. Yet for these I cannot find a single source of information that argues for the same except for Robert Graves.

>>24515504
So in this analogy the first mammal was... an amphibian.

RG drew on Frazer's Golden Bough, Jane Harrison's work on Greek religion, the Cambridge Ritualists, Bachofen's theories on matriarchal societies, and extensive archaeological evidence from Minoan Crete.

Also, the Enuma Elish shows gods overthrowing parent-figures for cosmic kingship - the same structural pattern as Oedipus, predating Greek literature by over a millennium. African and Celtic kingship myths follow identical patterns where marriage to the land-goddess (the 'mother') transfers sovereignty.


The first mammal was ... an amphibian?
>an amphibian or a lizard
Those aren't mammals!
WHat a disaste that evolution analogy was, the first mammal was ... an amphibian or reptile?

>>24515504
So in this analogy the first mammal was... an amphibian.

RG drew on Frazer's Golden Bough, Jane Harrison's work on Greek religion, the Cambridge Ritualists, Bachofen's theories on matriarchal societies, and extensive archaeological evidence from Minoan Crete.

Also, the Enuma Elish shows gods overthrowing parent-figures for cosmic kingship - the same structural pattern as Oedipus, predating Greek literature by over a millennium. African and Celtic kingship myths follow identical patterns where marriage to the land-goddess (the 'mother') transfers sovereignty.

>>24514938
Have you never read the Iliad? Poseidon is called earthshaker or god of earthquakes pretty much as often as he is of the sea. Also >>24512969 the eye of Apollo is not a phrase ever used by Homer, it's always rose red fingered Dawn.
There's plenty of other instances where the gods just do something that have nothing to do with their traditional attributes, like Athena blowing Hector's spear back at him when he throws it at Achilles.

>>24516540
>Poseidon is called earthshaker or god of earthquakes pretty much as often as he is of the sea
Yes, but in this specific verse it was called earthshaker.
>the eye of Apollo is not a phrase ever used by Homer,
You asked the symbolism of Apollo. Maybe you should've specified Homer's Apollo.

>>24515580
>>24515504
radio silence

>>24508154 (OP)
In times of peace, people often prefer the Iliad, in times of war, people prefer the Odyssey. Nothing wrong with prefering the iliad, it just means you are generally a soft invidiual, who wants to compensate for their lack of masculinity. But objectively the Odyssey is the better, more cerebral story.

>>24517285
The eighteenth-century scholar Richard Bentley remarked that the Iliad was written for men and the Odyssey for women.

>>24517306
Makes sense that a limp wristed academic scholar would write something like that, but he fundamentally misunderstands. For men that have known war, struggle and fighting, they prefer the Odyssey because they dream of coming home, of peace and of familial happiness. The Iliad is a story for soft men and children, who dream of heroic deeds and fighting because they have never experienced it themselves.

>>24517320
Isn't it true Alexander kept a copy of the Iliad under his pillow?

>>24516718
Poseidon is called earth-shaker frequently, it's no indication he's about to cause an earthquake when he's called so. There's not much to say other than it's self evident from reading the passage that Poseidon didn't save Aeneas by causing an earthquake. Gods wrapping mists around someone about to die and transporting them away from danger happens maybe a dozen times throughout the Iliad.

>>24517331
yeah he did

>>24517331
Maybe, but he was a once in a million conqueror, who had very different desires and ambitions than the average soldier in his army. It only makes sense that soldiers who spent years fighting on battlefields will not want to read about more war in their entertainment.

>>24517409
What Bentley meant was that in the Odyssey things were looked at from a woman's point of view rather than a man's. Colonel Mure (another soldier) said 'the women engross the chief part of the small stock of common sense allotted to the community.'

>>24517285
You can't substantiate anything you just claimed and the opposite could be claimed, the Iliad is preferred in times of war, etc. with just as much evidence which is none.

>>24517409
>>24517432
Samuel Butler actually wrote a book on his theory that the Odyssey was composed by a young woman from Sicily. Well worth reading.

>>24517409
whatever happened to this anon ?

>>24517331
and that is that

>>24517366
I know. Everything you say, I already know. But you are not ready for this conversation.

>>24518905
butterfly?

>>24519060
Haven't read my copy yet. Am still the only Graves fan from here?

>>24508154 (OP)
posting for posterity

>>24519293
Whats the meme about mountain lions and wine dark sea? What does the actual Greek say

>>24519304
i hope greek translation anon clears this up cause i dont know either

>>24519230
I recall telling you to read it six years ago