Emily Wilson says they are. What does that mean?

>>24510168 (OP)
i don't give a fuck about some fucking whore

>>24510168 (OP)
It was a class at my school, but it's always full

>>24510168 (OP)
Man everything I love really just isn't going to exist in the future, is it?

Someone explain this to me. Why do people who harbour an innate hatred of something (like the patriarchal, colonial, eurocentric, etc. etc. institution of classics) go on to dedicate their time to studying it, becoming a prominent scholar in it, only to turn around and say that the very thing they've dedicated their life to should be something else entirely? Make it make sense, please.

>>24510171
Emily Wilson, a whore? No way!

>>24510178
They call it "The Long March Through The Institutions". They want to take control of those things they hate so they can subvert and destroy it.

>>24510178
You have to understand first that women are the jews of gender. They see something powerful or popular that the rest likes and they can't have that. It must be subverted. It must be made into their image. So they take famous cultural artifacts as vehicles for their ideological hangups and traumas. They use already created platforms as a means to spread their messages. Why? It's their nature.

>>24510178
>>24510198
I have seen this kind of interaction hundreds of times. It is as if you are on a loop repeating the same ideas and talking points over and over again.
Why?

>>24510213
Because it's true.

>>24510191
Franco had the right idea about what to do with communists.

>>24510243
which is...?

>>24510231
yeah but when are you going to move on? when are you going to generate new knowledge? you have been repeating this since forever

>>24510168 (OP)
She'll never have a kid so she's trying to rebirth a male work in her own image to cope. You'd think these humanities types would understand more about psychology.

>>24510254
When are you going to move from 2+2=4?

>>24510243
Cower out of participation in a war which is meaningfully disposing of them?

>>24510262
if you are a politically minded person surely you can move from this to topics with higher complexity

>"classics" a modern institutional/ideological construct
Quite literally what does she mean by this? Is she talking about shit like those 50 work sets they sell for you to stock your rich guy library? Does she want to throw away Galen and Lucretius? OP should be sodomized by 50 afghanis for posting out of context twitter conversations!

aaah, yes. twitter ragebait thread n#24510168
thank god for imageboars

>>24510254
You apparently seem to thinking I only live to post that idea when in fact it's just one of different ideas in my arsenal. What does it upset you so much?

>>24510322
why*
>t. hangover

>>24510309
>Quite literally what does she mean by this?
The idea of a "classic" is an ethnocentric exclusionary concept meant to uphold patriarchy and white supremacy. In her view, there's nothing unique or special about any of those works apart from the fact that white men hold them in such high regard and make everyone else read them. For people like her, classics would be knocked off their pedestal and we would be paying more attention to BIPOC and Queer works. I've dealt with plenty of these people before, they believe Huck Finn is emblematic of the white savior complex and while it may have been useful at one point as an antiracist novel it should be pushed aside for black and brown voices instead

>>24510329
>The idea of a "classic" is an ethnocentric exclusionary concept meant to uphold patriarchy and white supremacy.
I don't think they inherently are le evil but they are weaponized by pseudo-nazis.
>Queer works
Those already exist in the western canon, though.
>be pushed aside for black and brown voices instead
"Brown" is such a misleading term because it can mean anything from Spaniards/Italians to Somalis/Indians.

I agree that marxists are weird, especially the female ones.

nietzsche is like pissed at the classics because of that nietzche was forced to learn philology in some fortress or something anyway so like for me this is a relatable point or does possess itself of relatability or historical perspectivism alexander pope made much invective in meters shrubs or trees never translated the homeric odes

the reading of text itself is a textual praxis or something lmao imo

>>24510318
ahhh yes above the turbulent waters sits my mind, serene

humanism or philology are disciplines in a hegelian sense or something idk i have not thought this out all th way

>>24510183
Lol

>>24510270
We're aren't talking about such things we're talking about classic entries in an ordered canon

>>24510176
ecclesiastes tried to warn (You), faggot. you still chose vanity anyways. enjoy!

>>24510425
Anon all the parishes in my hometown are closing down. I'm probably going to be the last English-speaking Catholic here when its all said and done.

>>24510427
What country are you from?

>>24510427
>he didn't get what I meant
there is nothing new under the sun, everything is in vain. everything you know will eventually be gone. period. this is the inherent nature of a social species that works on generational knowledge aka the world's longest running game of telephone. so stop whining about arbitrary opportunity cost ya fuckin cunt.

>>24510168 (OP)
So stop translating them, ho

>>24510264
Cope

>>24510437
My bad, I thought you were that "Enjoy Hell" poster on /his/ for a second.

I get the futility of life in that death must always come but it still makes me sad to know things I love must too perish away. I'm sure my great grandparents would be disappointed to know how little ultimately got passed down to me. But it's quite different when there's a concerted effort by the powers that be to ensure it doesn't get passed down, taunting us as they do it

>>24510450
word naw, the "so you should believe in God" shit is very clearly a post release update.

anyways, any entity with "influence" will have as little control over what is done with what is passed down as you or I. I would not lose sleep over it if I were you.

>>24510458
>so you should believe in God
>tests your faith
>kills self subsequently

>>24510171
She's a classicist akschually and wrote the first women translation

>>24510578
>wrote the first women translation
No she didnt

>>24510578
>wrote the first women translation
Fake marketing lmao not even the first woman who translated Homer

>>24510176
They’ll push too far eventually. Then it’ll be rise of the H-man part II: electric reichaloo

>>24510259
This bitch got psychoANALyzed

>>24510345
nietzsche wanted to go to Pforta and he was top of his class in Latin/Greek

>>24510578
The Odyssey was actually written by a woman so I find it problematic that Mrs. Wilson would try to supplant her as the chief female in this tale..

>>24510584
>>24510599
The fact that any criticism of Emily Wilson's work is waved away as "misogyny" never fails to make me laugh. These people don't realize that that it's THEM being misogynistic by blindly supporting her work just because it's marketed as a modern, feminist, translation by a woman. It's disrespectful to both the poem and to her (if she had enough artistic integrity to care). Caroline Alexander's prose translation came out less than 10 years ago, it's both more accurate and more poetic than Wilson's "verse" translation, and she's also a woman, but because it wasn't marketed on ideology nobody cares about it. It was never about Homer to these people, it wasn't even about "a translation by a woman," it's always just been ideological grievances. Marketing says buy this, it supports this ideology, good little drones say yes and chug their slop and ask for seconds.
And honestly at this point we deserve this. Ideology was a Trojan horse and we were dumb enough to let it into the city; now art isn't for art's sake but just another medium to convey propaganda, whether it's liberal or conservative or feminist or redpill or progressive or traditional and on and on and on.

Inb4 someone says art was always propaganda. Not to this extent it wasn't. There was a certain degree of respect in how classics were dismissed as outdated, at least then they acknowledged that the art was of another time and didn't feel the need to dumb it down, to torture it into the present day. Today they feel the need to modernize it with fucking "tote bags." To update it, as if Homer was not only outdated but also "Wrong" on some objective moral framework. It's mutilation.

>>24510779
The most accurate Polish translation of the Iliad is done by a woman, Karolina Jeżewska, and nobody makes a fuss about it.
Wilson is a plant, and her approach to translation is straight up wrong. Homer did NOT write in the common vernacular of his time, he consciously used archaic phrasing to add gravitas to his diction.

>>24510779
Depressing how Wilson has become the default translation everywhere. Even the nominally conservative catholic private liberal arts campus near me uses her translation instead of another.

>>24510859
Gross! Such is the power of marketing.

>>24510859
Is this true? What a disgrace, it is probably the worst translation I've ever read.
Maybe part of it is the general decline in literacy and education since Wilson writes at a 5th grade level

>>24510178
Academia isn't about studying things but rather controlling the societal discourse around things.

>>24510779
>Ideology
Haben't two opposing ideas always been Ideology?

>>24511013
Haven't* sorry phoneposting

I wish we'd return to reading classics for their own sake rather than thinking that they provide some kind of unique education especially of a moral sort

The thing that gets me about her translations is not even the propaganda that she sneaks in but the way they read like something written by a middle schooler.

By the way, it's sort of interesting, the way both games and literature started to treat the original text less as scripture and more as a sitter for a painting, something that can and should be creatively reinterpreted, roughly around the same time. Remember how autistic people used to be about accuracy barely twenty years ago? And how that ethos is nowhere to be seen nowadays anywhere, in anything?

>>24511027
Achilles' wrath, to Greece the direful spring
Of woes unnumber'd, heavenly goddess, sing!
That wrath which hurl'd to Pluto's gloomy reign
The souls of mighty chiefs untimely slain;
Whose limbs unburied on the naked shore,
Devouring dogs and hungry vultures tore.
Since great Achilles and Atrides strove,
Such was the sovereign doom, and such the will of Jove!

>>24511044
That's too much. Homer is simpler than most assume an epic poet would be, but he's not a retard. Read Lattimore.

>>24511051
THAT's your problem? Not the rhymes? Not the Roman god names?

>>24510168 (OP)
Dunno but I'm studying it at a top five school (think, Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, xxx) so... Not on my watch it isn't

>>24510270
most people still haven't gotten it though, so it bears repeating

>>24510168 (OP)
She's projecting so hard with her definition of classics as a "modern institutional/ideological construct." Her entire gimmick is modernizing the ancients to bring them in line with modern ideological constructs (to use her terms) but no clearly classics is the real problem here, not people like her killing it. Yeah, right, since classics is a modern construct, the Romans obviously didn't obsessively study the Greeks, to the point that the journal of an emperor himself is in Greek. Since classics is a modern construct, Alexander wasn't given a classical education by Aristotle himself, never slept with a copy of the Iliad by his side. Since classics is a modern construct, Plato obviously never studied Homer, never critiqued him. Since classics is a modern construct, the Romans clearly never spread the wisdom of Greece all the way to Britain. Since classics is a modern construct, the Renaissance never happened. Since classics is a modern construct, Britain clearly never created centres of teaching like Oxford. Since classics is a modern construct, ancient institutions like Oxford clearly never gave Emily Wilson a classical education. Since classics is *just* a modern construct, Wilson's credentials as a classicist don't mean anything, and obviously there's no reason for her to be employed. And yet, despite all that, Wilson continues to be relevant and employed, and only by sucking the little remaining blood out of classical studies while at the same time complaining that the field is just a modern institutional/ideological construct.

Sure, classics is the modern construct here, obviously not her and her work.

>>24510806
>Wilson is a plant
Holy shit she really is kek. It's funny how actors and musicians are criticized for nepotism but academics can just get away with having their entire career handed to them.

They'll never promote something they like until they've destroyed what they don't like. Their movement is fueled by hate, not love.

>>24510168 (OP)
it means she's a destructive bad faith ideologue that wants to destroy everything good so her own dogshit works can reign in its place.

>>24510806
Homeros was from the 11th century.

>>24510231
I don't agree that translation is a dying industry. It takes a poet to translate another poet. And translations need to be pleasurable to read, as well as accurate. It's hard to imagine an AI reproducing the style of Aubrey de Selincourt.

>>24510264
The rank-and-file Soviets weren't ideological communists. They were just typical Russian cucks who did whatever they were told.
Destroying Soviet communism would require wiping out the oligarchs at the top. Ironically, Stalin was by far the best at that.

>>24511026
>let's ignore the lessons of classical history so we can make the same mistakes ourselves

>>24511044
No one has surpassed Pope, which, as Samuel Johnson puts it, the greatest translation to which no age nor country can compare

>>24511247
>it takes a poet to translate a poet
This alone is the reason we had so many awful and uneducated translations. A good translation must be technically informed and broad in knowledge, not spawn out of some sort of vague “poet spirit”.

>>24511298
That applies to non-fiction. A translation of poetry requires a certain sensibility that academics lack.

>>24511323
Bollocks. This is the reason we had a string of bad translations that have nothing to do with Homer, imbeciles who think they can compose on a roughly similar theme and capture mana from divine inspiration. Poetics in classics are a subject of academic interest and it takes scholarly knowledge to understand it and supply a proper text in modern languages.

>>24510427
LMAO
Pathetic larp

>>24510618
fuck off retard, that satanic hypermodernist faggot is burning hell and is the direct cause of this

>>24510168 (OP)
She is absolutely right, if it stays in its modern academic form that she herself proscribes it will die out and rightfully so
The reform we need is teaching latin in latin and ancient greek in ancient greek instead of fiddling with translations

>>24510168 (OP)
I agree. She must go.

>>24510231
the second paragraph is so bluepilled, he doesn't even realise that's the worst part of it all

>>24510244
Torture, rape, blinding and death. The White Terror was the single greatest program of justice ever conducted by human hands.

>>24510262
2 + 2 = 2
This is real interesting maths, wonder if other mathcucks will recognize what I meant here.

>>24510345
Nietzsche was a professor of Classical Greek. What the fuck are you talking about?

>>24511342
Poetic translations lead to Alexander Pope, whose Iliad is a classic of English literature in its own right.
Academic translations led to Emily Wilson.

>>24510168 (OP)
https://youtu.be/vNLJhIRqSss

>>24511026
>provide some kind of unique education especially of a moral sort
at least half of them are specifically for this purpose, you just don't read those

>>24511371
look into 'formal culture' contra 'popular culture'
the notion that formal culture dies if it loses popularity is a pure mental barbarism

>>24511409
???

>>24510178
It's the German style research university. It makes "new research" and not education the main purpose of the university. "Job training" is the other function. The old idea of education as cultivation gets totally subsumed by these, in part because the philosophy of the academy writ large has turned against the idea of the liberal arts as liberating and of education being necessary for self-governance and self-determination, and the idea of education as largely training in the virtues (intellectual and moral).

The research university denigrates the humanities so to keep up they ape the sciences, adopting technical jargon, shoving logical and mathematical notation into papers on Homer, and above all, seeking progress. Over a period where enrollment in classics as a major fell by 2/3rds and high school Greek and Latin plunged over 80%, the number of journals and books published exploded by almost a multiple of three. This became the focus. But since there is only so much to write about and since academics are now supposed to deliver "progress" they tended to take "progress" as political progress, using French post-modern theory as a main way to define this. So you get a push for radical left wing politics and the exclusion of all the old reasons this stuff was taught.

But this also goes for analytical takes too. For example, I have seen Virgil's Aeneid taught entirely as political propaganda and a sort of exercise in "debunking," which is what C.S. Lewis identified prior to post-modernism in the Abolition of Man. Liberalism is actually more influential and pernicious here, because it a priori makes most of what the humanities teach "privatized" and leaves only the push for more liberalism (conservative libertarian or progressive) as the focus of "progress."

Add in publish or perish and the way novelty, even stupid these, get citations, and you have a recipe for disaster. The old classical education/small liberal arts university still grounded in the classics is dying out because, not focusing on research, they can't get funding out of a system focused on this, and conservatives want to axe that funding anyhow. So, even though we are seeing a small revival on classical k-12 education, there might be no one trained to teach it in another generation as the few remaining places that take Boethius and Plato seriously, instead of reading them ironically as post-moderns, will be closed in another decade.

>>24511437
Conservative efforts to fix this tend to be deeply flawed. They simply try to cut off all funding from the humanities and all requirements involving them, often focusing on education as merely "job training." The notion of freedom here is simply freedom to consoom, and what is lost is the way these texts show us how self-rule and self-governance requires cultivation. People do not just become free by avoiding major disaster and turning 18. As Epictetus, the great philosopher slave put it, a slave might become free, but most masters are slaves to their passions and appetites.

Reformation volanturism certainly plays a role here, as do many other modern pathologies, including a straight jacket intellectualism that reduces the Logos to formal "systems."

That, or conservatives see the chief value in the classics as supporting classical liberalism and capitalism, the very things that have bulldozed culture and birthed post-modernism. So it's a self-undermining effort. The solution to liberalism's ills is just more liberalism, rereading Virgil and Augustine as classical liberals.

No doubt, liberalism and capitalism brought many good things. But that doesn't mean they are ideal or that they don't tend towards negating themselves. The denial of any human telos ultimately makes civilization impossible in the long run and we have only gotten on so well because Christianity and the classics were still the backbone through inertia. We are only now seeing the fruits of embracing full nihilism and skepticism.

>>24510168 (OP)
Revolution. High art was always for the intellectual elite of society. Now we're reaching the end point of the slop-era, accecuated by AI, the masses will simply consoom their slop whilst the selected few will appreciate higher culture. We can already see the more intelligent members of society reject slop.
Although picrel and academia in general has helped made the classics slopified, so it won't see a revolution in academic circles.

>>24511490
I've come to think humanity's future will resemble Wells' depiction in The Time Machine. We will split into Eloi and Morlocks.

The irony is that probably not a single guy in this thread knows a shred of greek

>>24511437
What the fuck are you talking about?
>hoving logical and mathematical notation into papers on Homer
Literally no one.

>Over a period where enrollment in classics as a major fell by 2/3rds and high school Greek and Latin plunged over 80%, the number of journals and books published exploded by almost a multiple of three.
Because Greek and Latin are no longer requirements for other majors and while there are fewer students, the majority of them tries to make it into research and academia. It has nothing to do with some manufactured propaganda, we had 250 PhD each year in 1900, we got 55~60k now, that's all.

Classics are dying because it's no longer necessary to read them to enroll in law or medecine, that's it, there's no grand reason and it has always been about that.

>>24510178
>Why do people who harbour an innate hatred of something (like the patriarchal, colonial, eurocentric, etc. etc. institution of classics) go on to dedicate their time to studying it
Easy degree.
It's easier to get a PhD writing about feminist suppression in Homer or the secret patterns of homosexuality in Ulysses or transgendered identities in Metamorphosis rather than a PhD in theoretical physics.
So whore #700000000002 writes about postcolonial misogynoir subaltern abject bodies in Canto XXIV of Dante's Inferno, receives her PhD, and thinks she's as smart as Vagclit Singh who managed with his team to make quantum Internet happen from one end to India to the other.

>>24511523
The book in the pic there is absolute full of such examples, so it is not "literally no one."

For example:
>This chapter is devoted to the narrative, situation of complex narrator-text or embedded focalization, NF1[F2Cx]. There is embedded (or secondary) focalization when the NF1 represents in the narrator-text the focalization of one of the characters. In other words, the NF1 temporarily hands over focalization (but not narration) to one of the characters, who functions as F2 and, thereby, takes a share in the presentation of the story. Recipient of the F2's focalization is a secondary focalizee (Fe2). (I. J. F. de Jong, Narrators and Focalizers. The Presentation of the Story in the Iliad [Amsterdam, 1987}, p. 101)

Go to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and look up some articles on medieval thought. You'll find plenty of modern analytic citations that try to reduce the Doctrine of Transcendentals to logical notation or explain Dante with formal notation.

>>24511523
The decline was from the 60s to the late 90s when the book came out, so this is just misrepresentation. Greek and Latin have not been prerequisites for being a doctor since she's before that.

I didn't say it was a conspiracy (although there are self-conscious attempts to deconstruct and decolonize classics), I said it was part of a broader flaw in the modern German-based university system.

>>24511607
um akschually it's called literary theory and it's intellectual

>>24511026
yeah let's read the guy who all of greek quoted before plato as a foundation of ethics by ignoring the morals

>>24511091
i got it so why can't others? i am very young, this whole deal feels fake, you are just propagandizing for plebs

>>24511651
you'd be surprised how many people still don't know basic truths

>>24511618
This is not “shoving logical and mathematical notation”, it's an abbreviation and it's used more than sparely in the book (a random page attached for comparison). Even if it were as obscure as you implied, literary theory is widely frowned upon in serious circles (the best Homerist of the last century who procured the both the Iliad and the Odyssey in the Teubner collection, Martin L. West, said of literary scholar that they non lucem ex fumo, sed ex fulgore d[ant] fumum, “shed no light on the onscure, but obscure what is lit”). Narratology in particular is fringe hardly admitted in many universities and Irene de Jong is not a serious scholar. You seem to take issue at basic attempt to formalize issues in textual criticism. What's next, we should drop metrical notation?

As for the decline it was far earlier than that and such requirements were still commonplace at the beginning of the century. It's on a freefall since postwar, the golden age of grammar schools is long gone. It's all about inertia now.

>>24511694
Forgot the file!

>>24510444
Get the reds Francisco!

>>24511437
>>24511458
Very good post.

>>24511503
Neither does Wilson

>>24511931
Remember when she got schooled by some Greek guy at a public conference and she didn't know how to react and just changed the topic?

>>24511931
I don't defend Wilson, mind you. She's a nobody in classics.

>>24511941
No. I remember her owning a room full of misogynists.

>>24511963
lmao
okay, Emily.

>>24510779
Your mention of all her criticism being dismissed as misogyny is interesting to me because I was talking with an intelligent woman from an Ivy and I said something to the effect that Emily Wilson is the WORST and her response was to ask, essentially word for word, "Are you a misogynist?" It was delivered in a jocular/ironic tone, but probably had a kernel of sincerity. The anecdote isn't super fascinating but I had a sort of thrill when I read your first lines because they had occurred to me effectively verbatim. I don't even talk to progressive academic types frequently, much less about Homer translations.

>>24511247
Such is our pride, our folly, or our fate,
That few but such as cannot write, translate.

>>24511941
link?

>>24510176
neither will you

>>24510168 (OP)
>woman classicist
>main contribution to the classics is saying “fuck this burn it all down”
Victor Davis Hanson wrote a book about this in the 90s during the early stages of the decline.

>>24510213
/pol/troons like to believe they're uncovering hidden redpills or whatever but they can't actually think for themselves so they just make the same thread 20 times and wait for their butt budyy to post the same canned greentext in response
>why is x so y
>*gay response*
>put me in the screencap

>>24510444
Cringe christcuck who didn't help the good guys in the middle of a war between good and evil and allowed Spanish women to be raped by moor troops, he also put Spanish nationalism below Catholicism.

>>24513669
it works. stealth marketers learned it decades ago. it's the mere exposure effect in action.
wouldn't work if jannies would actually do their jobs but here we are

>>24510168 (OP)
I don't think so, things might lose their importance but I have a hard time believing that they will die considering that society is still standing and thriving. It just doesn't make sense that any society that has some money would let something like that die.
But considering that we are dealing with people and that libtards are as stupid as religitards, then that is a possibility, people might get angry at whatever and simply find a way of destroying everything.

>>24510178
>studying something before criticizing and talking shit about it
Why that doesn't make any sense? It is definitely better than just making memes and saying stupid shit. People need substance and knowledge to make an actual decent critique of anything. You are probably just too stupid to understand that.
This is the actual problem with people, they think that their opinions have any importance to anyone but themselves and people who think like them. When actual value and knowledge comes from studying something that you disagree so that you can make sense of it.
Some other problem is that, people who study those things tend to overfocus on theory and neglect that reality is material, and that maybe you would have a better time doing experiments for real instead of theoricizing a bunch of stuff that doesn't have any grounds on reality.