Thread 24517589 - /lit/ [Archived: 669 hours ago]

Anonymous
7/3/2025, 7:03:55 PM No.24517589
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I've only read the republic once but I really want to know who these guys are that hold up the shadowpuppets? Are they people who escaped the cave and then came back but were threatened with death so they rejoined the system? Is there any connection with these shadowpuppet dudes and the auxiliaries in the republic's class system? Why would the guardians need enforcement of their rules/ideas/whatever unless they weren't convincing enough for the lowest class? Is it possible the guardians are just offering another system of shadows to people and how does the philosopher king fit into this?
Replies: >>24518775 >>24518781 >>24519392 >>24519757 >>24519763 >>24520665 >>24520746 >>24521032
Anonymous
7/4/2025, 1:02:01 AM No.24518775
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>>24517589 (OP)
superego, ego and id are just blatant copy of platonic ideas. What do you guys think?
Replies: >>24519392
Anonymous
7/4/2025, 1:03:35 AM No.24518781
>>24517589 (OP)
Logoi spermatikoi
Jon Kolner
7/4/2025, 4:38:46 AM No.24519392
>>24517589 (OP)
They represent AI spammers who make garbage threads. You see they are projecting their garbage thoughts and thread topics onto the wall to subjugate the chained captive to their inane and pointless gesticulations, wild circumlocutions which serve no other purpose than for the babbling man to take up space hearing himself talk.

>>24518775
It is actually that Homer sort of has Id, Ego and superego in the characters of the suitors and this predates both Freud and Plato. Think about it

Antinous- Id
Eurymachus- superego

There was a third one which was basically Freudian ego but I don't care enough to find his name.
Replies: >>24519410
Anonymous
7/4/2025, 4:52:04 AM No.24519410
>>24519392
I'm not a chatgpt poster.
Anonymous
7/4/2025, 7:43:39 AM No.24519757
>>24517589 (OP)
They're the gatekeepers
Anonymous
7/4/2025, 7:45:47 AM No.24519763
>>24517589 (OP)
its me. my bad
Anonymous
7/4/2025, 5:03:26 PM No.24520665
>>24517589 (OP)
Great questions. We should observe first that the Cave allegory doesn't by itself try to explain who they are, so it's worth wondering why the allegory plays that down.

>Are they people who escaped the cave and then came back but were threatened with death so they rejoined the system?
The allegory gives us room to make at least two guesses: 1) those who, being unfettered, could now see the cave entrance, but who decided to remain for whatever reason, and 2) those who could exit the cave and decided to return. The source of the statues and implements that are shadowed by the fire necessarily have to have their cause in the latter, who made the statues and implements in imitation of things seen outside the cave.

>Is there any connection with these shadowpuppet dudes and the auxiliaries in the republic's class system?
Within the Kallipolis, the auxiliaries would be believers in and defenders of the noble lies, but they wouldn't recognize them as lies. I think the noble and medicinal lies are a good sign that the city's founders (including Socrates) would be among the puppeteers. But the poets would also be included; the fact the the statues are examples of mimesis is a strong sign of that, since that's what's associated with the poets throughout the Republic.

>Why would the guardians need enforcement of their rules/ideas/whatever unless they weren't convincing enough for the lowest class?
The simple but true answer would be: so the city remained just, according to how justice has been discovered, but Socrates says that the justice of the city's hierarchy is a phantom of true justice, which is in the soul (443b-444a). And I think the suggestion is that the noble lies that justify the hierarchy are going to be more securely attached to the auxiliaries and non-philosophic guardian rulers, sinve they're both selected by having stronger memories. Presumably, if the moneymakers of the lowest class start getting ideas about taking up other arts in the city beyond what they've bee assigned, the auxiliaries and guardians would think "oh, that's just how bronze souls are, they don't know better."

>Is it possible the guardians are just offering another system of shadows to people and how does the philosopher king fit into this?
The guardians wouldn't be aware that they're sharing shadows to the populace, only the philosopher-kings would. The philosopher-king would love to have people to talk about the outside of the cave with, but knowing that many of the prisoners have sensitive eyes, there's a risk to freeing anyone. But this might also point to what's dangerous about philosophical pedagogy: Socrates was interested in men like Alcibiades, Critias, and Charmides on account of their willingness to question custom, but if course they pursued that to vicious or self-serving ends. Polemarchus is the ideal case (he's said in the Phaedrus to have turned to the pursuit of philosophy).
Replies: >>24520746 >>24520764
Anonymous
7/4/2025, 5:37:19 PM No.24520746
>>24517589 (OP)
>>24520665
Don't overthink it. The whole allegory is just Plato's attempt to justify himself, and the philosopher caste in general. It's just PR.
Anonymous
7/4/2025, 5:44:04 PM No.24520764
>>24520665
>The allegory gives us room to make at least two guesses: 1) those who, being unfettered, could now see the cave entrance, but who decided to remain for whatever reason, and 2) those who could exit the cave and decided to return. The source of the statues and implements that are shadowed by the fire necessarily have to have their cause in the latter, who made the statues and implements in imitation of things seen outside the cave.
Couldn't they also be crazy pyromaniac retards who love the light of fire but have no idea how fire illuminates the cave? Just spitballing here. This is all playful speculation anyway. But there should be room for the naive poet, the true believers with mere knack, the demagogues and propagandists of history.
Replies: >>24520787 >>24520791
Anonymous
7/4/2025, 5:52:49 PM No.24520787
>>24520764
Well, except that Socrates discusses, when the philosopher returns to the cave, how the prisoners have rituals where they they compete to see who can guess the order of the shadows, and win honor for guessing correctly. True believers, most demagogues, naive poets, etc., will be people who accept the shadows without seeing that they're shadows. So, in the context of the Kallipolis, all three classes are seated with the exception of the philosopher-king variant guardian. My guess, to use a wacky example, is that someone like Alex Jones has at best come unchained but stays in the cave. The measure for these things might be to what extent common opinions still hokd sway on someone, so picture campus radicals who reject everything else but still hold to opinions about justice that are otherwise commonplace.
Replies: >>24520791
Anonymous
7/4/2025, 5:54:31 PM No.24520791
>>24520764
>>24520787
Like, the poets that I see being among the puppeteers are Homer and Hesiod, but Euripides is just making plays based off of their shadows.
Replies: >>24520949
Anonymous
7/4/2025, 7:03:04 PM No.24520949
>>24520791
If we’re going by the arguments against poetry in Republic, Euripides would certainly have the Platonist’s ire because he tends to portray the gods as cruel and evil merely for the sake of it such as in Helen.
Anonymous
7/4/2025, 7:41:34 PM No.24521032
>>24517589 (OP)
You're overthinking it. The point is just what the people who are chained in the cave experience. If Plato wrote in modern times, he probably would've had the shapes moved by some automated system or something.
Replies: >>24521045
Anonymous
7/4/2025, 7:47:33 PM No.24521045
>>24521032
It's not just that, because within the Republic there's two books devoted to interrogating the poets for teaching persuasive falsehoods and mimicries, as well as the frank support of using mythic lies to glue the hierarchy together. Those are related to what's going on with the puppeteers.
Anonymous
7/5/2025, 7:10:32 AM No.24522442
Sophists and grifters obviously. People like Trump you fucking mutts.