Kant hate thread - /lit/ (#24526452) [Archived: 427 hours ago]

Anonymous
7/6/2025, 6:21:43 PM No.24526452
totenmaske
totenmaske
md5: cc4edfafb8eff3cc14d40efd273bd073๐Ÿ”
Kant's psychology is identical to that of of the mathematical crank
>One obvious characteristic of the trisector is that they are old. The trisector heard of the trisection in his geometry class, but did not succeed with his construction until many years later.
One point for Kant being a crank - didn't write the critique until he was in his 50s
>A third characteristic of trisectors is that they do not know much mathematics.
He included a refutation of Berkeley despite never reading Berkeley. He shit on Thomas Reid despite never reading Thomas Reid. he learned aristotelian logic in school, but never really engaged with aristotle and probably couldn't read greek. he claimed to have refuted leibniz despite only being familiar with leibniz indirectly through wolff, and probably didn't even read wolff but only knew about it because it was being taught in his school.
> "tell me a thing is impossible and I will immediately set to work on it"
hume said it was impossible to prove the universal validity of causality and Kant went fucking insane. in his efforts to prove causality was valid, he accepted all kinds of absurd propositions and made incoherent arguments in support of them, and then what he actually ended up proving was not that causality was necessary or valid, but that we can't help but to use causality, which is nothing more than what hume already said, similarly to how trisectors claimed to have constructed a trisection when in reality they only constructed an approximation.
>Trisectors draw complicated diagrams... Without exception, the constructions can be simplified, sometimes drastically... Perhaps they think that complexity is impressive or... perhaps they are a bit unsure of their work and think that errors will be harder to find in a complicated diagram with many letters.
Kant's arguments are pointlessly repetitive and long. He obscures his premises behind as much retarded vocabulary as possible, and he does not use his own definitions consistently as almost every commentator on Kant has pointed out.
>It is virtually impossible to convince them that they have made an error.
Many people responded to kant and showed him his errors, of course his response was simply to claim that they did not understand his work. It is the same with the Kant shills on this board.
>Some trisectors waste vast amounts of mathematical time. A 1951 trisector, aged 82 at the time, broadcast his constructions... to over 100 places in all. He had more than 60 replies! Think how many mathematician hours went into producing those answers, some of which the trisector excerpted in his next widely distributed letter.
Kant RUINED philosophy because later philosopher all felt the need to refute Kant and devote entire books to him. It's even worse because Kant obscures his actual arguments so much, that the philosophers tie themselves into knots trying to make it make sense. Kant completely derailed philosophy for 200 years at least.
Replies: >>24526493 >>24527387 >>24527449 >>24527476 >>24527725 >>24527947 >>24529170 >>24534704
Anonymous
7/6/2025, 6:34:13 PM No.24526493
>>24526452 (OP)
finally a good kant thread
with some vague incoherent appeal to mathematics he pulls a synthetic a priori out of a hat
his entire philosophy is a sleight-of-hand
Replies: >>24527607
Anonymous
7/6/2025, 11:11:18 PM No.24527387
DESCARTES-E-DAVID-HUME-644113832
DESCARTES-E-DAVID-HUME-644113832
md5: 76edd402538b42c8daf597145f9d5863๐Ÿ”
>>24526452 (OP)
Return to the guillotine and metaphysical shit piles.
Anonymous
7/6/2025, 11:41:35 PM No.24527449
>>24526452 (OP)
>what he actually ended up proving was not that causality was necessary or valid
That's--actually what he did do. It's necessary and valid for all human experience, all phenomena.
Replies: >>24527490 >>24527498
Anonymous
7/6/2025, 11:54:06 PM No.24527476
>>24526452 (OP)
There was a big debate at that time between rationalism and empiricism.
Empiricists claimed that everything comes from experience, you start empty and as time goes on you soak knowledge from the environment like a sponge.
Rationalists didn't agree with them, in their worldview there are things in the world that you just know regardless of experience. The reality is a dream. As the song goes:

In my mind, in my head,
This is where we all came from

Kant's main achievement was pointing out that what empiricists thought are raw experiencial data, is not raw at all, it's already went thought many levels of work that was done by your brain, the work of constructing the world, constructing the reality.

In short, he convincingly showed that the whole debate was retarded.
Replies: >>24527928
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:00:01 AM No.24527490
>>24527449
his "proof" of causality is genuinely one of the most retarded things that I have ever read.
His "proof" (I will not remove the quotation marks) literally implies that we never experience anything which we don't think we know the cause of, as otherwise there would be no way for it to appear in time, since causality is the rule we use to order events in time. hence we cannot experience ANYTHING which appears to be random. Which is obviously false.
His "proof" literally implies that there is absolutely NOTHING in the raw sense data which has ANYTHING to do with time, just as his "proof" that space is "transcendentally ideal" implies that there is absolutely NOTHING in the raw "manifold" of sense that has any spatial characteristic or indirectly causes us to order it in space in any way, and thus there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON why anything would appear to us in space in one way rather than another, and similarly with time, as otherwise time and space would be reflected in a REAL relation possessed by the object.
His "proof" literally implies, not only that nothing we experience is without cause, but that it is impossible to experience anything whose cause can never be discovered, which is obviously false.
genuinely the most retarded piece of "philosophy" I have ever had the displeasure of encountering.
Replies: >>24527498 >>24527500 >>24527548 >>24527947
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:03:32 AM No.24527498
>>24527490
>>24527449
I mean, think about it for FIVE FUCKING SECONDS
his "proof" LITERALLY IMPLIES that merely thinking something has a certain cause is enough to perceive it as actually happening at that time. It LITERALLY IMPLIES that if I mistakenly thought that the cause of a pain I experienced was stepping on a rock five years ago, when the actual cause was stepping on a stick five years later, that I COULD ACTUALLY EXPERIENCE THE PAIN AS HAVING HAPPENED FIVE YEARS BEFORE IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
Replies: >>24527503 >>24527947
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:04:17 AM No.24527500
>>24527490
>literally implies that we never experience anything which we don't think we know the cause of
You phrase it incorrectly. We must think of every object of experience as having a cause. Whether it actually does is another matter.
Replies: >>24527506
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:05:20 AM No.24527501
Kant is a shithead because I have a deep psychological need for metaphysical proofs
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:05:50 AM No.24527503
>>24527498
That's--not what he's says at all. You're reading him like a retard.
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:06:12 AM No.24527506
>>24527500
that is not what the proof says. the proof says that causality is universally valid because without causality, there is no rule by which events can be ordered in time.
merely for a cause to exist is not enough, because if we don't know the cause, the event CANNOT APPEAR TO US AT ANY PARTICULAR TIME.
Replies: >>24527521
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:12:01 AM No.24527521
>>24527506
> if we don't know the cause, the event CANNOT APPEAR TO US AT ANY PARTICULAR TIME.
no retard, we don't have to know the particular cause, we only have to think of every of object of experience as causally determined and determing. We DON'T HAVE TO KNOW THE ACTUAL CAUSE DIMWIT.
Replies: >>24527522
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:13:13 AM No.24527522
>>24527521
HOW EXACTLY IS CAUSALITY PROVED TO BE UNIVERSALLY VALID?
BY APPEALING TO THE FACT THAT EVENTS CANNOT BE ORDERED IN TIME WITHOUT CAUSALITY.
IF WE DON'T KNOW THE CAUSE, BUT EVENTS CANNOT BE ORDERED IN TIME WITHOUT CAUSALITY, HOW DOES THE EVENT APPEAR TO ME AS HAVING HAPPENED AT THE TIME IT DID?
Replies: >>24527530 >>24527555
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:17:56 AM No.24527530
>>24527522
wait, but correlation is not causation.
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:24:04 AM No.24527548
Burythatcavedeeperthaniranianenrichmentfacilities
Burythatcavedeeperthaniranianenrichmentfacilities
md5: e414c881cdb98d4ba00042efc730b1ef๐Ÿ”
>>24527490
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:28:10 AM No.24527555
>>24527522
>EVENTS CANNOT BE ORDERED IN TIME WITHOUT CAUSALITY
This the transcendental schema. The present moment is conditioned by a prior moment, but this part is all apriori. The actual event, as given is a posteriori, it just happens when it happens, but as experiental, we do not ,a priori, know how it happened or why it happened, only that we must think of it as having a why or how it happened. We only only KNOW a priori that the present moment in time is because of a prior moment of time, and this transcendental schema is superimposed on the sensible, the actual, which is contingent and whose actual causes require a posteriori investigation to find out. You are reading Kant like a retard.
Replies: >>24527567
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:32:40 AM No.24527567
>>24527555
You are contradicting Kant. You said "the actual event, as given a posteriori, just happens when it happens." But time is transcendentally ideal. The temporal position is added by the mind. You are implying that time is not transcendentally ideal.
Replies: >>24527576
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:38:04 AM No.24527576
>>24527567
No it's not, just line the spatial position is not determined by the mind. The position of anything, whether in space or time, AS EXISTING, i.e., as sensible, is NOT determined by the mind, ONLY its FORM.
Replies: >>24527606
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:48:52 AM No.24527606
>>24527576
>I am only conscious, then, that my imagination places one state before and the other after; not that the one state antecedes the other in the object. In other words, the objective relation of the successive phenomena remains quite undetermined by means of mere perception. Now in order that this relation may be cognized as determined, the relation between the two states must be so cogitated that it is thereby determined as necessary, which of them must be placed before and which after, and not conversely. But the conception which carries with it a necessity of synthetical unity, can be none other than a pure conception of the understanding which does not lie in mere perception; and in this case it is the conception of โ€œthe relation of cause and effect,โ€ the former of which determines the latter in time, as its necessary consequence, and not as something which might possibly antecede (or which might in some cases not be perceived to follow). It follows that it is only because we subject the sequence of phenomena, and consequently all change, to the law of causality, that experience itself, that is, empirical cognition of phenomena, becomes possible; and consequently, that phenomena themselves, as objects of experience, are possible only by virtue of this law.
Replies: >>24527622
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:49:11 AM No.24527607
>>24526493
>some vague incoherent appeal to mathematics
it's not vague or incoherent, it's genius
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 12:52:52 AM No.24527622
>>24527606
in no way did that disprove me, like it actually just proves my point.
Replies: >>24527636
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 1:01:22 AM No.24527636
>>24527622
>I perceive that phenomena succeed one another, that is to say, a state of things exists at one time, the opposite of which existed in a former state. In this case, then, I really connect together two perceptions in time. Now connection is not an operation of mere sense and intuition, but is the product of a synthetical faculty of imagination, which determines the internal sense in respect of a relation of time. But imagination can connect these two states in two ways, so that either the one or the other may antecede in time; for time in itself cannot be an object of perception, and what in an object precedes and what follows cannot be empirically determined in relation to it. I am only conscious, then, that my imagination places one state before and the other after; not that the one state antecedes the other in the object. In other words, the objective relation of the successive phenomena remains quite undetermined by means of mere perception.
He literally says that the connection between two events, which connects one to the other as antecedent to it, is added by the imagination. You are claiming that the fact that it is antecedent already exists before the understanding has synthesized the manifold of experience. Which would contradict entirely Kant's statement that CONNECTION IS NOT AN OPERATION OF MERE SENSE OR INTUITION. In order for the connection to exist, the understanding must have synthesized the raw manifold, and the only way it can do this is with the categories, i.e. with causality. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU SAYING?
Replies: >>24527658
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 1:09:19 AM No.24527658
>>24527636
>He literally says that the connection between two events, which connects one to the other as antecedent to it, is added by the imagination.
The entire empirical world is a product of the imagination. The imagination is not limited to reproductive and creative imagination. You don't see with your eyes; your visual field is a production of the imagination.
>You are claiming that the fact that it is antecedent already exists before the understanding has synthesized the manifold of experience.
No, I'm not midwit.
Replies: >>24527659
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 1:11:11 AM No.24527659
>>24527658
according to what rule did the imagination determine that the antecedent event was antecedent rather than consequent?
Replies: >>24527665
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 1:13:34 AM No.24527665
>>24527659
It doesn't. The understanding does.
Replies: >>24527670
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 1:14:37 AM No.24527670
>>24527665
ignoring the fact that Kant literally said imagination connects them in the quote,
according to what rule did the understanding determine that the antecedent was specifically antecedent rather than consequent?
Replies: >>24527683 >>24527691
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 1:18:13 AM No.24527683
Kant
Kant
md5: 701f11063efc355abc3b29e88aaca6b1๐Ÿ”
>>24527670
>that my imagination places one state before and the other after
according to the understanding obviously

>A philosophical system cannot come forward armed at all points like a mathematical treatise, and hence it may be quite possible to take objection to particular passages, while the organic structure of the system, considered as a unity, has no danger to apprehend. But few possess the ability, and still fewer the inclination, to take a comprehensive view of a new system. By confining the view to particular passages, taking these out of their connection and comparing them with one another, it is easy to pick out apparent contradictions, especially in a work written with any freedom of style. These contradictions place the work in an unfavourable light in the eyes of those who rely on the judgement of others, but are easily reconciled by those who have mastered the idea of the whole.
- Kant, CPR 2nd Preface
Replies: >>24527688
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 1:19:24 AM No.24527688
>>24527683
according to what rule did the understanding determine that the antecedent was specifically antecedent rather than consequent?
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 1:20:09 AM No.24527691
>>24527670
>according to what rule did the understanding determine that the antecedent was specifically antecedent rather than consequent?
That's for psychology to find out.
Replies: >>24527695
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 1:22:41 AM No.24527695
>>24527691
what the fuck is wrong with you? I asked you a simple fucking question. Kant explicitly says causality is the rule used to determine that one event is antecedent rather than consequent. why cant you answer a simple fucking question? why are you ignoring what kant himself said?
Replies: >>24527701
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 1:26:22 AM No.24527701
>>24527695
>Kant explicitly says causality is the rule used to determine that one event is antecedent rather than consequent.
No he doesn't. Causality is the rule used to determine that every event is both antecedent and consequent.
Replies: >>24527764
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 1:40:12 AM No.24527725
>>24526452 (OP)
>Kant
Anon this is the basic criticism of all famous metaphysical philosophers. It's the idea that philosophers, at a certain point, parted ways with empiricism and natural philosophy and only engage in a purely theoretical world.
>kant
>hegel
>Schopenhauer
>Nietzsche
This criticism is labeled towards ever philosopher of the 19th century.
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 1:53:58 AM No.24527764
transcendental unconscious
transcendental unconscious
md5: b94258488e5e896d78176e55406ea4af๐Ÿ”
>>24527701
the proof of causality is still not valid under your interpretation.
according to your interpretation the rule used to order the event lies unconsciously in the imagination.
there is no reason the imagination cannot imagine something which is incoherent and then present that to us. my same criticisms still apply. if the rule lies in the unconscious, then since it is unconscious, there is no need for the rule to be coherent, as kants transcendental deduction only applies to consciousness and states that the coherence is a precondition for consciousness.
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 2:05:57 AM No.24527797
the phenomena-noumena distinction is an epistemic distinction and not an ontological one. too bad everyone believed it was ontological and so philosophy has been garbage for the past 200 years.
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 2:49:51 AM No.24527928
>>24527476
>Kant's main achievement was pointing out that what empiricists thought are raw experiencial data, is not raw at all, it's already went thought many levels of work that was done by your brain, the work of constructing the world, constructing the reality.

This isn't Kant. If you appeal to the brain as a noumena that is causing experience to be the way it is you are already stepping outside what Kant says you can say.

The idea that the body shapes experience is as old as Aristotle. "Everything is received in the manner of the receiver," was a scholastic addage. It's all over Aquinas. To be sure, the Enlightenment folks needed to be reminded of this, but plenty of people were aware of it. What Kant does is actually just to absolutize this dictum such that it becomes a gigantic problem.
Replies: >>24529287
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 2:56:17 AM No.24527947
51SMA5GOKIL
51SMA5GOKIL
md5: fb83b518eb259c90863e9773fec9337e๐Ÿ”
>>24527490
>>24527498
>>24526452 (OP)
Cause had already been ruined by Hume. Hume was exactly right about how incoherent Enlightenment theories of causation were. Reducing everything to accidental temporal sequences of mechanism had already made causation nothing more than constant conjunction. Kant is just dealing with the fallout of the abandonment of causality in any thick sense. Russell also wasn't wrong to want to eliminate the totally deflated notion of cause he had left. Only lately have physicists really come around on causes and started including formal causation again, and the some biologists in the biosemiotics paradigm bring back all four causes in a more robust way.

The mechanistic world was supposed to be a simplifying assumption, a sort of bracketing, but Enlightenment philosophers quickly absolutized it into a horrid metaphysics. But really, the problem starts with nominalism.

The Reformation drive to just throw shit out without reading it really did a lot of damage, and it's only papered over because progress in methodology allowed technology to progress decently enough. We're still living with the fallout.
Replies: >>24527988 >>24530948 >>24532169
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 3:14:29 AM No.24527988
>>24527947
It's all so tiring
Replies: >>24529083
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 3:41:37 PM No.24529083
$_57
$_57
md5: b93a5897a2c23a8df9904df1341f0921๐Ÿ”
>>24527988
It sometimes feels like something like this obviously fictional story must in some way actually be true.
Replies: >>24532156
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 4:24:46 PM No.24529170
>>24526452 (OP)
Kants a cunt
Replies: >>24529301
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 5:18:11 PM No.24529287
>>24527928
reading comprehension, do you have it?
brain was just mentioned, it's not central to the argument.
> this isn't Kant, but yeah, this is Kant
you don't make sense even in writing.

What Kant did is he said to empiricists: "Don't act like you're more practical than others, like others are lost in theoretical gobbledygook while you're all about correct practical stuff. Your raw data isn't raw data at all, you don't have direct access to raw data, you can only theorize about it's existence."
Anonymous
7/7/2025, 5:26:33 PM No.24529301
>>24529170
Peak australian philosopher.
Anonymous
7/8/2025, 6:56:57 AM No.24530948
>>24527947
it's nice knowing 17th century scientists were already leaps ahead philosophically than the shitfuckdamnit.png of this era - saved Bohrs and Einstein from many headaches and false dogmatic accuracies it did.
Replies: >>24532169
Anonymous
7/8/2025, 8:55:09 PM No.24532156
>>24529083
elaborate?
Replies: >>24532988
Anonymous
7/8/2025, 8:59:41 PM No.24532169
>>24527947
>>24530948
Based. The truth about philosophy is that it was already finished by the East as well as by the Catholics centuries ago. Any truth found in modern philosophy correlates with tradition.
Replies: >>24532228
Anonymous
7/8/2025, 9:21:12 PM No.24532228
>>24532169
>by the East as well as by the Catholics
OK the only thing I can think of that might draw a parallel is Anatta (no independent self) is basically saying the same thing as Aquinas' use of "participation" in being, and how both end up with an ineffible and transcendent 'thing' (sunyata, God) with an ultimate end for all conscious creatures being unity with this transcendence (nibbana, the beatific vision). How off the mark is that?
Replies: >>24532454
Anonymous
7/8/2025, 11:22:22 PM No.24532454
principle of sufficient reason
principle of sufficient reason
md5: e432baca374280fddbd63564fd819297๐Ÿ”
>>24532228
It's good that you reference Aquinas, who is probably the most 'buddhistic' of the mediaevals, excepting Eckhart, but I think it's difficult, though doable, to compare concepts from different cultures (what is called 'comparative theology' now) without falling into serious hermeneutic pitfalls. That said, I see the truth as "pluriform plurality," which is not to embrace relativism, but to assert that the single mysterious absolute (the Trinity for example, is a symbol of differentiated unity) is reached through a plurality of ways that are sui generis formulations of this mystery of being. The different traditions reach the same place through concepts that on the surface seem cogently equivalent, but are radically different in form and practice. This idea of non-relativistic plurality only really challenges the late modern tradition of kantian rationalism, which fails to justify itself before transcendental questioning, see pic related.
Replies: >>24535523
Anonymous
7/9/2025, 4:03:34 AM No.24532988
>>24532156
A broken man can do less damage than a bent one. Modernity bends man, rather than breaking him.
Anonymous
7/9/2025, 4:17:45 AM No.24533019
>Kant RUINED philosophy
Plato ruined it first and then Aristotle made it worse
He's just one in a long line of retards that continues to this very day
Anonymous
7/9/2025, 8:35:45 PM No.24534698
He didnt
Anonymous
7/9/2025, 8:36:54 PM No.24534704
>>24526452 (OP)
i like him though
Anonymous
7/10/2025, 12:24:12 AM No.24535523
>>24532454
thanks for this. I've only started getting back to philosophy so I've got a long way to go, but I'm glad I'm not completely off track.