Modern media sounds more interesting. Older media sounds didactic and boring.

Retards like OP will say shit like that and still be filtered by the Bible.

>>24531172 (OP)
It's a retarded strawman and so are you.

>>24531172 (OP)
>Tolkein: WWII was a battle between good and evil. The forces of good fought so we could become slaves.
>Martin: Everyone fights for their own purposes. Every cause is just to someone, no matter the cost.

I choose Martin.

>>24531182
Tolkien
>fought in WWI and was an Air Warden in WWII
Martin
>fat fuck who filed as a conscientious objector

Lol.

The second is a result of the corrosion of values. People do not read these books to look up to the characters anymore; they simply wish to see their selfish ways reflected and validated

>>24531188
>>fought in WWI and was an Air Warden in WWII
And we (me and my family in Tel Aviv) are grateful for his service.

>>24531191
That's not really true. The most well liked characters tend to have some value system beyond pure self gain. Everyone liked Ned who died largely because he was too virtuous. Jon and Stannis also have a lot of virtue. It's just that the books refuse to give the reader virtue without qualification. Doing the right thing often comes with a serious downside, but that means doing good is all the more important.

The past was way more morally grey anyway. The Iliad is more morally grey than GoT because everyone involved is a piece of shit except for Hector who gets treated by far the worst.

>>24531194
Tolkien
>actual experiences to write about after seeing combat
Martin
>cliched "war is hell" bullshit after watching Vietnam war movies

Lol.

>>24531188
Based Martin. Why fight for retarded causes and people?

>>24531226
>actual experiences to write about after seeing combat
To what end? "Orc bad, man good". Yawn.

>>24531172 (OP)
Because older lit was based on sharing wisdom and bettering yourself and modern isn’t. GRRM in particular used the war of the roses for inspiration which was just a people trying to steal the throne.

>>24531172 (OP)
good and evil are social construction and meaningless binary

>>24531172 (OP)
Is that Mario Vargas Llosa?

>>24531226
>actual experiences to write about after seeing combat
And according to him it's horrible and awful and is fucking bad and ruins and scars men and lands forever and should not happen and tendency to justify and wage it for power and glory is the definitive flaw of men and if possible nobody should participate in it ever.

I hate the lazy fat fuck as much as the other anon but what's the idea in shitting on his draft dodging from a Tolkienist perspective? That you need to personally get a full colon of war AIDS in order to find it detestable? Postwar Tolkien was adamant on that if you can avoid fighting in useless wars of men, you should, as taught by Jesus.

>>24531238
>"Orc bad, man good". Yawn.
Orcs are massively underdeveloped, to Tokien's own admission, but that's not as much of a fault as it could be, because orcs and Sauron are ironically tangential to the LotR story.

The orcs and Sauron are not an evil force in of themselves, they are the consequence of arrogance, pride and lust for power in others - it Melkor first and foremost and in Isildur. The greatest obstacle on Frodo's journey is not orc armies, but his own feelings regarding the One Ring, and Gollum, who happens to a consequence of the same feelings and is also instrumental in the Ring's destruction. Orcs and Sauron themselves actually manage to be a threat only because the elves are tattered by their grief, and kingdoms of men are disunited, decayed and kingless.

The warriors of the story are not really fighting a Manifestation of Primordial Evil in orcs and their beasts and machines, they are fighting their own flaws, sins and mistakes, and those of their fathers, with Sauron and orcs just being vessels for those. It's one of the pillars of the world's melancholy, the Marring of Arda, that all of the loss and death and sacrifices involved are always were entirely avoidable, if Isildur/Saruman/Gollum/Boromir/Theoden/Denethor could only take a stand against their pride and lust for power, and through their courses we know that men who come after them will make more of the same mistakes and beget more sin which will beget more clashing of swords and spilling of blood. Not even Frodo could withstand the call of the Ring, what hope do lesser men have, except struggling on in the long defeat to their own weakest nature?

>>24531172 (OP)
The issue is that classical literature reduced goodness. Goodness cannot be framed but evil can be. Most evil is fully understandable to humans because it's fully human but goodness is partly divine. Jesus is not limited but rather His limitlessness is only matched by His subtlety and we misrepresent Him when we contravene one to accent the other.

I would say in The Illiad, there is no definite good or evil side in the battle between the Greeks and the Trojans. Even the Gods are fallible and have flaws.

>>24531528
>classical literature reduced goodness
I Agree with this, Jack Vance inspired an entire generation of cynical writers. Gene wolfe and Martin both idolized him and were clearly influenced heavily by his stories, especially Cugel The Clever

Both are wrong. Different diseases. Literature is better when you don't really know what's being told but still you feel it all throughout the entire book. No answers, no explanations; instead: art, feelings, and abyss.

>>24531532
That is how the gods were viewed, as personifications of the elements and of fate- cruel and indifferent to man. This is really apparent in Euripides' Helen most of all where it turns out the Trojan war was based all on a great lie and the real Helen was just a normal lady and the one that ran off to Troy was an apparition from the gods meant to fuck with the Greeks and get thousands of them slaughtered.

>>24531532
The Illiad is like a battle shonen if all the autistic fans existed in universe and forced their favorite characters to fight each other.

>>24531430
>eleven "ands" in a single, relatively short sentence
woah calm down there Cormac!

>>24531611
>literature is only good when it's vapid and meaningless drivel

>>24531672
The slogan of /lit/

>>24531672
No, it's only good when it's predictable and self-righteous bullshit

>>24531172 (OP)
OP I believe that you are stupid. Fix it.

>>24531430
Look at the posts that were being responded to, dummy.

>>24531665
Lol.

>>24531172 (OP)
It's smarter to pick from both approaches.

>>24531172 (OP)
This meme is really
>general audience media, 1900~1960
Vs
>general audience media, ~1960-present
Old literature is orders of magnitude more complex and sophisticated than anything the deconstructionists can imagine (they have no imagination).
Dante's Christian morality doesn't make the Divine Comedy simple, far from it; it's a complex summation of all of human knowledge, wisdom, folly, science, philosophy, history, mythology, literature, and theology up to the point it was written.
Relativism is just as simplistic as "good guy vs bad guy." The true chad route is to explore what good and bad are, why and how the guys are good or bad, the interplay between good and bad, good characters with bad inclinations and vice versa, etc. (Tolkien did this).

>>24531172 (OP)
I don't think Modern Media is actually like this. It presents itself as morally gray, or that all sides are understandable, but the protagonist the audience is meant to identify with always winds up embodying modern virtues such justice and equality and the antagonist winds up being authoritarian and analogous to fascism.

Tolkiendrones think a book written in the 1950s is "old literature"
A bunch of ESLs and gormless midwit retards who have no experience reading actual old literature, which more often than not does not have definitive good and evil,

Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water.

>>24531976
of all the authors talked about on this board, I only remember Cormac and Martin having embarrassing sentences lol

>>24531188
Sorry but I won't die for israel haha

People are confused by the good and evil thing when in reality both Tolkien and Martin agree with the same good and evil. The Bible explicitly says that men aren't the enemy but things like cosmic darkness. Tolkien doesn't show that one group of men are evil, he even has many morally gray characters, even the MCs aren't any sort of paladins, he shows a spiritual force that is evil. Martin has cosmic darkness and spiritual forces of evil as well. The difference is Martin is more focused on the men v men while Tolkien was more focused on men v evil spiritual forces.

>>24531172 (OP)
Older media also had morally grey characters. Most works of classic literature have morally grey characters. Tolkein's works have only been considered up their as a classic relatively recently, it's straightforward approach to morality is one of the reason his stuff was considered for children back in the day.

>>24531172 (OP)
>george books le bad cause he was lucky enough not to be involved in a fucking war.

This place is filled with 30 year old, edgy retards. Holy fuck

>>24531966
I will never in my own head live down having been all of these basedjaks throughout school

>>24532162
Once you understand the mental and moral deficiencies that are commonplace here you lose all will to engage in real discussion. It's been many years since I lost the ability or desire to differentiate between the bad faith trolls and genuine idiots. Past a certain lower threshold there's no functional difference.

germs settings arent even 'morally grey' like he likes to tout. muh orc women and children. what about the bolton women and children? are they all evil like the bolton men? do they learn how to flay their infant siblings with a knife at age 8 or something? do they learn how to rape when they go to spooky school at the dreadfort, to learn under the leech lord? you could exchange the boltons with orcs and it would make no difference. actually thats an insult to orcs, even tolkiens orcs behave more rationally. take ugluk healing pippins wounds for example. in GOT ramsay would have just cut his fingers off and raped him and then laughed at saruman when he got mad, and then teleported behind him and sliced his throat. they dont behave like actual people in the real world, any people
>but muh vikings and aztecs flayed people! *mumbles about assyrians*
shut up. those people actually did things besides just flaying people. they built cities, developed mathematics and astronomy, built longships with no nails because they were perfectly pressed together. what have boltons invented or contributed to their world in terms of society, technology or culture? some literature maybe? what do they even do to contribute wealth to the 7 kingdoms or to the north in general? some tanned hides? thats not a commodity specific to one region, why are they needed? why havent the starks just wiped out these obvious ticking time bombs for being a past and obvious future threat? what a surprise, the totally evil people whose whole culture is centered around torturing people turned out to be secret bad guys. the fact anyone called this equal or superior to LOTR is comedy, it has an edgy childs understanding of history, economics, politics and psychology

>>24532162
George's books are bad because he's a left wing pig with a soul the color of Jewish shit. The fact that he is also a massive coward is besides the point.

>>24531172 (OP)
>he thinks modern media isn’t didactic
Oh I’m laffin’

>tolkien isn't modern media
Lmao

>>24532162
its just kind of a matter of fact that the best writers are veterans, actual combat veterans like cervantes and tolkien. im not a military fag or a bootlicker but those guys lived through real adventures, experienced real losses and saw actual death before their eyes. those sort of experiences change a man and give them reflection on life and death that can manifest into great literature. doesnt happen all the time, combat veterans are just as prone to turn into drug addict burnouts with the IQ of a toddler, and not every great writer was a combat vet obviously, but the ones who werent were also explorers or academics of some kind. milton never served in combat although he did serve as a civil secretary for the commonwealth during the civil war, and that probably gave him alot of time to perfect his writing skills. the best writers were people who experienced life in one way or another, and had something to say about it. not some just some fat retard (who may have molested his sister according to her allegations) who never really experienced life, neither its hardships and trials or its victories and accomplishments. two journalism degrees dont count for shit, and he has nothing of value to add to the story of the world. were all just beetles being crushed by a retard god? lovecraft came up with that one a century ago, and he did it much better than that fat germ. his 'literature' offers nothing for the human mind and soul beyond depravity, nihilism, incest, pedophilia, atheism, rape, barbaric violence and masochism, all dress up in a fantasy setting with its only shred of creativity taken from world history or other fantasy, and clumsily draped over his crude pessimistic idol of a world

>>24532231
Corrupt watch commander named fucking Janos Slynt or some ridiculous shit, let's not even get started on the Kettleblacks. I've seen Conan the Barbarian villains less overtly evil than some of these guys.

>>24531172 (OP)
I didn't know that the Old Testament was modern media

>>24531429
Tolkien and George RR Martin

>>24532380
Word of God is everlasting.

>>24531172 (OP)
Denethor is more morally grey than Ramsey Bolton. Even Sauron is more nuanced as a villain.

If White people don't want Tolkien anymore because he wasn't an antisemite I will posthumously have him for my tribe of Inuit .

>>24531172 (OP)
>Tolkien is "older literature"
I like Tolkien but this is a falseflag.

>>24532737
>Lord of the Rings published 1954
>A Game of Thrones published 1996
Are you retarded?

>>24532001
You're too mentally unwell and fat to be drafted, anon.

>>24532757
is that why you were assigned to JIDF

>>24532746
>a mere 42 years' difference
20th century deconstructionism and moral relatives were already well established by the Tolkien wrote the Hobbit. Lewis, his contemporary, spent much of his time addressing and critiquing the very same modern ideas you see in GRRM. If you want early literary examples, one needs look no further than Joyce, Eliot, and perhaps even as far back as William Blake. It's just that as time went by this ideology was unanimously adopted by all institutions.

>>24532776
>20th century deconstructionism and moral relatives were already well established by the Tolkien wrote the Hobbit
NTA and no.

>>24532776
>this ideology was unanimously adopted by all institutions
Then it is older literature and not modern media.

>>24531422
Literal tranny post

>>24532302
for me its the creepy jannie from harry potter who gropes his own granddaughter/daughter. totally caught me by surprise when he betrayed the starks at the red wedding

>>24531422
Literal chad post

>>24532746
No, but you certainly are.

>>24532779
Sword and Sorcery was very well a thing when the Hobbit was published. The fucking Illiad was already mentioned in this thread.

>>24533095
Nope. Mental retardation is 70 IQ or below. Mine's 80.

>>24533099
You are a special boy

>>24532231
But he has great worldbuilding with kermit, grover and elmer tully.

>>24532292
>its just kind of a matter of fact that the best writers are veterans
no, it isn't.

>>24531172 (OP)
>Is this true?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Moral greyness is a thought terminating cliché popularized by shallow midwits.

>>24531188
Soldiers are cucks. Always have been, always will be.

>>24531172 (OP)
no

>>24531188
There hasn't been a just war in centuries, filing as a conscientious objector is the only based option

>>24536154
You're pretentious.

>>24531226
its hilarious how shartin fans think he knows more about war and warfare than Tolkien keked

>>24531188
Tolkien times had different values, what are Martin values ?

>>24531172 (OP)
>definite good and evil

This is already wrong. Make this meme over

>>24531172 (OP)
good and evil whast definite in the tolkien verse, he just understood is make for shitty stories and never wrote "about" the grey or shitty times of the world.

he says in a letter that if he had to keep writing about middle earth it would have to be about how they become bored of peace and the male youth start to idolize orcs and form gangs to cause violence and mischief, but then goes on to say that such a story isnt worth writing. BTFOing grrrrm from the grave

why cant i post on this nigger retarded site anymore without waiting 120 seconds for every single post?

>>24537595
wasnt*

>>24537595
>why cant i post on this nigger retarded site anymore without waiting 120 seconds for every single post?
are you using incognito mode?

>>24531430
War is actually awesome. I mean... come on.. we all love reading about the war's and playing WAR games and watching War movies. War is like BANG BANG POO POO! SHIELDWALL!!! CHAAAAARGE

War is awesome, essentially.

It goes deeper. Tolkiens (and C.S. Lewis) works were also sort of a dilution of E.R. Edison.
>>24531182
You are a brainlet if you think LOTR is about either world wars. There is no allegory to it at all. The closest it gets is the coded commentary about industrialization with the ents destroying Isengard and then the Scouring of the Shire.

>>24537709
Used to be. Now it's just drones with bombs.

>>24538401
Not to mention that there are tons of gray characters in Tolkiens works. Boromir, Gollum/Smeagol and Denethor are the obvious ones in LOTR. And there are even more in the Silmarillion.

>>24538407
This.
>>24538412
Also whenever Tolkien goes gray zone in his works its far better than when Martin constantly does it with not much substance to it. Tolkien has substance.

>>24531172 (OP)
You are a fucking retard who is fundamentally unable to understand anything he reads.
You should shut the fuck up, write your own shit in private for a few decades and THEN dare to expose yourself to the world.