>constantly gets praised for "grey" characters
>90% of them are just plain evil

>>24533784 (OP)
The only people who talk about amorality are evil people. Moral people know that you're either moral or you aren't.

>>24533801
This, it's one thing to have flawed characters, nobody is 100% perfect at living up to moral standards, whether it be universal ones or their own philosophical ones, but true "moral greyness" doesn't exist, it's a buzzword immoral people use to justify selfishness and evil. You either strive to do moral things as best you possibly can in your situation or you don't, in which case you're immoral.

>>24533840
people saying jaime lannister is a "grey" character with complex morals are so fucking funny. the dude is comically evil

>>24533784 (OP)
Writes tyrion as a self insert
Turns him into a drunk, moronic rapist

What did grrm mean by this?

>>24533784 (OP)
Imagine being this fat.

>>24533840
People use morals to justify selfishness.
You're such unlearned people to be speaking on this, did you learn nothing from philosophy on this topic?

>>24533801
And different types of moral people think all the other types are amoral.

>>24533801
>>24533840
So are you faggots "moral" all the time, or do you have lapses, like any fallible human being?
Because if you do, you're both "grey" characters. Or just plain evil, if you prefer.

A lot of the things they do is just realpolitik.

>>24534106
>rapist
Tyrion never raped anyone, the girl was a sex slave and she was there to fuck him in the first place

>>24535671
Greyness doesn't exist, jew.

>>24535671
Literally said that everyone has lapses and isn't 100% moral all the time in my original post, but OK.

>>24533784 (OP)
>>24533801
>>24533840
I consider myself a pragmatist. Fuck morality. I've seen what it has lead to in history.

>>24533801
Moralcuck hands typed this post

>>24535888
So you're evil?
Got it.

>>24535888
>grey is Jewish
What are some other colours I should be wary of?

>>24533784 (OP)
George RAPE RAPE Martin

>>24536896
He likes to emphasise the "RR" in his name because it makes him sound like J "RR" Tolkien. The fat fuck is obsessed with him.

>>24536583
I went to a school like that. It was awful.

>People ITT

>>24533784 (OP)
>morality is subjective, it doesn't exist
Why do people think relativism = complexity? Relativism is perhaps the most simplistic moral system, just as a shape with zero sides is less complex than one with one side.
Everyone who believes in morality and is above the age of seven knows that morality (in essence, striving for congruity between a man's actions and what he ought to do) is a complicated thing. If you want to learn about it perhaps read some Aristotle or Aquinas instead of strawmanning Protestant tracts or reading fedora tippers' rape fetish fantasies.

>>24533784 (OP)
game of thrones is fun to watch when you detach yourself from literally everyone in the show. i have never seen a show with more disgusting and morally corrupt characters before

>>24537176
To be fair, there is a difference between what people say and what they do. They may say they’re too smart to believe in morality, but they’re the pettiest moralfags on the planet. Not even referring to GoT, but look at most stories where they’re trying to get across a message of hard moral ambiguity. The protagonist the audience is meant to identify with somehow still embodies modern virtues of justice and equality and the antagonist written to be hated is analogous to fascist values. People are fundamentally moral creatures even if moral ideas are not immediately obvious, or even if they’re purely psychological and emotional, so this idea of someone above moral ‘superstitions’ is itself a modern superstition.

>>24537245
Bookfags will seethe, but the show is genuinely entertaining for the first few seasons, while the books ... aren't.

>Jamie
Portrayed as evil but is actually the most brave and willing to protect innocents. Saving the lives of a million people.
>Barristan
Portrayed as good but is essentially a coward who would never protect the lives of others if it meant contravening what he swore to do.

They are both foils to each other.

>>24533862
Jaime is a victim of being sexually groomed by his twin. If Jaime was female and Cersei was male this would be obvious

if you're not good you're bad. grayness is just rhetoric coming from bad people to hide their true identity. modern obsession with it speaks about the current state of society.

>>24537148
wtf I have this framed in my room right now how did you know?
btw I'm trans and post regularly on r/GameofThrones

Jon, Barristan, Varys, Davos, Robb, Bran, Brienne, Catelyn, Eddard, Sansa, Samwell are all straight up morally good characters. Even Daenerys, misguided as she may be, is hardly evil. The idea that everyone is awful in ASOIAF is a meme.

>>24537507
i was talking about the characters that are considered grey. the characters in the book are all either good (like the starks) or evil (like the lannisters)
only two actual grey characters in my opinion are dany and tyrion

>>24537546
What about Arya, Jaime, Tywin, Stannis, Bronn, Robert, Oberyn, Jorah, Asha and Theon? My personal favorite is Sandor, but I admit the show went out of its way to make him more likable, in the books he's absolutely a horrible monster, not two ways about it.

>>24533801
Fpbp. Grey morality bullshit essentially means characters make good or bad choices or that they have flaws, which for some reason makes people basedface about how "le complex and le profound!!" it is. But you either do something bad or you do something good. There is no in between. And you know this is true because if you press on this issue with greyfags you'll always find they don't truly believe a grey character is truly grey but rather demonize any aspect that might socially unacceptable nowadays.

>>24537578
>jaime, bronn and theon
giga evil

>>24535671
i only lapse against myself

>>24537578
Jaime, Tywin, Stannis, Bronn, Jorah, Asha, and Theon are all evil

>>24535888
your sin is pride. more atrocities have been committed in the name of virtue than evil. You would be one of those idiots who wouldn't realize it until it's too late

I didnt know /lit/ was so full of tolkienfags, you can tell cause the main point people have againts his books is his dull as fuck characters.
The dick ridding is insane

>I love murdering children and raping women!
>but I would never, EVER, call a black person the n-word c:
This is what 99% of "morally grey" characters amount to, that or
>Oh, but if you don't let me sacrifice 1 million babies, then 2 million babies will die! Quite the conundrum, eh?

>>24537872
>why dont characters say nigger in the fantasy book i am trying to sell world wide

Stop being fucking stupid, you delusional redneck

>>24537805
finish the books fat fuck

>>24537785
i disagree that tywin is categorically evil, same with jaime.
while with the others, an argument against their evilness would just be frustrating, i will say stannis is absolutely, categorically NOT evil in the slightest.

>>24537578
sandor mogs this post's assertions through and through, because he is a character that simultaneously does very good and very bad things consistently, he is morally ambiguous or, as it is also known, morally gray.

>>24537970
He murdered a child for basically no reason, and many more off-screen before that. He's absolutely a horrible, evil bastard. The fact he didn't rape Sansa or turn in Arya doesn't overshadow the atrocities he committed in the past. What I like about him so much, though, is that there's an understandable reason for him being the way he is, and he's obviously tormented by what he's become. He's a bitter, self-hating, deeply unhappy man and a tragic figure, but he's definitely evil.

>>24533784 (OP)
George really does underestimate the amount of actual good people that exist. Humanity would not be functional if the majority was not inherently good and decent to each other.
Which is why I think a lot of people compare him to Tolkien.

One saw war and the real horrors of humanity. Managed to get married and raise good well mannered children.
The other saw cheeseburgers and large sodas. Managed to get an ever expanding gut and never had children.

>>24538079
like i said, he's morally ambiguous. he couldn't refuse to kill the kid without repercussion and, afterward, it doesn't sit well with him that he did it at all. he also chooses to stick up for sansa multiple times. kinda makes you go "man this guys morals are kind of convoluted" right?

>>24535671
>do you have lapses, like any fallible human being? Because if you do, you're both "grey" characters.
Not really how that works. If that were the case, there would be no such thing as antagonists or protagonists. There are good characters, there are bad characters, and there are "grey" characters.

"Morally grey" generally refers to a character who's decisions are frequently tough to discern between good or evil. A good character who slips up occasionally isn't morally grey.

>>24537902
why not? its a fantasy setting depicting a world about 500-1000 years behind the current world. not sure if youve ever read a history book but they said alot more than just 'nigger' back then. why dont the 7 kingdoms ever call the dornish a bunch of goatraping gay sandniggers for instance?

>>24538318
Because, rightly or wrongly, the people who GRRM is trying to sell books to treat racism as a greater taboo than subjects like massacres or incest. If an author writes a racist character using racist language, that character's views are ascribed to the author himself, and book sales will suffer because of it. This is unfair and inconsistent, but it is what it is. The historical accuracy of insults isn't worth throwing your career away for.

>>24538103
holy smokes you have lived a sheltered life lol.

>>24533784 (OP)
Welcome to millennials

>so you be sayin that HBO slop
>is SLOP?
enlighs majors wirting their phds shaking rn fr fr on my momma ngl tho

>>24538301
with a little research you'd find that that isn't necessarily true, at least not in the way that your reply reads. the generally accepted "definition" of "morally gray" is someone who, again, has ambiguous morals or a lacks a clear alignment with the generally accepted "good" or "bad" alignments.
>"Morally grey" generally refers to a character who's decisions are frequently tough to discern between good or evil
this is absolutely not the case. again, with light research, you'd find that morally gray and morally ambiguous characters are synonymous and often refer to characters who choose self serving and often contradictory choices depending on the circumstance.
>A good character who slips up occasionally isn't morally grey.
this is facts though

>>24535699
Bismarck famously was a degenerate rapist and murdering warmonger.

>>24538433
but then you sorta reveal that grrm did not write these books out of a flash of creativity or desire to create a truly timeless novel or anything like that. he did not write his book under the direction of the muses, he wrote it under the direction of the jews. he wrote it with his career in mind. this is why they are worthless novels, fun trash to have read when it was popular and now its barely worth burning or using as shite wipes. they will not live on into future ages so that they are remembered. if writing a fictional racist character who says racist shit is less acceptable than the sort of crap grrm writes than we are truly in a diseased age of zero inspiration. what makes child rape any more acceptable as writing material? and before you bring up blood meridian, sodomy and child rape during war was a tactic among the comanches as a form of demoralization, and mcarthur never writes about it with any kind of explicitness, its more just horrifying and tragic. grrm writes about child rape in a way you know he is getting off to it or something. just too many weird little details like 'and she squirmed like a soft rabbit under his strong body' or whatever. if writing a racist character in a fictional setting makes you a racist why is grrm not being investigated for noncery?

>>24533840
>it's a buzzword immoral people use to justify selfishness and evil.
There's a lot of distance between selfish and evil. Only looking out for number one doesn't mean you intentionally do things to fuck others over. I am not my brother's keeper and I never signed le social contract

>>24534134
this has got to be at least a 7 on the Richter scale