Pindaric edition

>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·
>>24478787

>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·
https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw

>Mέγα τὸ ANE·
https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg

>Work in progress FAQ
https://rentry dot co/n8nrko

All Classical languages are welcome.

mementote si vultis forum instar 4canalis ubi modo Latine liceat colloqui, eccum vobis https://porticuspublica.org/

>>24540407 (OP)
How long did it take you all to go from the point where you have the rudiments of Greek mostly down (i.e. can generally recognize every declension and form in a sentence) to being able to actually read long sections of Greek, vocabulary aside? I'm going through Anabasis right now and would estimate that I'm able to translate any given sentence correctly maybe 50% of the time with a dictionary. Once I check the translation I can figure out pretty quickly what I did wrong but it's not intuitive yet

>>24540428
I translated part of Plato's Crito after two years of Greek at university, having had no prior knowledge, and Homer after three years. I believe one can understand Greek quite quickly, but this requires acquiring the fundamentals fairly rapidly (to be brief, the verbal and nominal systems, all three voices, relative pronoun and clauses, the infinitive construction, the genitive absolute and all uses of the participle, the subjunctive, and the conditional system); one must master paradigms thoroughly (you cannot afford to waste time working out what form you are reading), and read as much as possible, as early as possible. I recommend progressing steadily through a good textbook—at least up to chapter 25 of Athenaze or chapter 23 of Logos—and then reading “A Greek Boy at Home”. You can then move on to simpler texts, Plato, Plutarch, Xenophon. Lucian is an excellent author, whom I recommend for practising irregular forms.

>>24540428
years of reading and re-reading, lexicon is really what stands in the way

You have to study 3 hours a day minimum....it is the only way.

I FUCKING HATE LATING WHY IS IT SO COMPLICATED

>>24541305
i know right there's like 40 variations of every word

>>24541373
>english speakers when they have to learn 5 cases

Should I learn Greek or Latin first

>>24541580
going raw and dry into Greek knowing 0 Latin beforehand is the gigachad move but are you a gigachad, anon?

>>24541610
I'm not brave enough...

>>24541614
that's ok most of us started with Latin
but if you really really really like the Greeks beforehand, go for it

I've tried to take a stab at Pindar.....feels challenging man; I also noticed looking at a couple of translations for reference they don't seem to always agree 100%, I guess it's normal given the style

>Chagatai
I'm completely ignorant of these things but what is written in this: Everything, Just accounting documents?

>sniff armpits
smells like Netzach. Green. Jubilance. MAN im sexy af. Flowers rap in my funk.

>>24541580
latin

>>24541931
There's no point unless you're very proficient in Greek.

>>24541931
Just get a parallel Loeb edition, it's a good way to practice Greek. Read the English, look at the Greek, try reading the Greek, look at the English. Pindar is a window into a whole world that is neglected by most surface level presentations of classical culture. The Archaic world is mostly invisible to us and we have to go on hints and glimpses in later authors. It was clearly extremely lively and had its own "vibe" (pardon the term) distinct from the 5th century and later.

>>24542660
To clarify, I know Pindar's floruit is in the 5th century but he's still a window into that 6th century bardic network and especially (for me at least) a window into the weird world of Archaic Sicily. It almost feels "late Homeric" sometimes.

>>24540428
read as much as possible

>>24542660
yeah I got that feeling of archaicity, I have been reading mostly Homeric for a while so at the very least that area of the lexicon and unAttic grammar is familiar, so far the Doric forms haven't caught me too off guard since I'm partly familiar with them as well
but yeah not being familiar with the myths makes things hard, but I'm still enjoying it so far, some beautiful stuff

>>24543036
There's a lot of literature available to assist in reading archaic authors. Gildersleeve is still relevant to some point and there's a good companion to find in Farnell's.

So, what do you think of Latin novellas?

I wish there were online communities and modern resources for studying Old Church Slavonic/Old Bulgarian... and I mean the OG language, not the later Russian/etc. recensions.

>>24543145
a lot of them apparently have really bad, unidiomatic latin.

>>24543182
It's a language of liturgy and an important language in Indo-European studies, there should be enough resources for you to learn it. Why, however, I wonder.

>>24543200
>writing my gay little poems and melodies with it (without spending years and thousands of EUR on a magister's degree)
>bible study
>n*tionalism
I have been compiling tons of resources though, they just feel jankier than what's available nowadays for the far more popular Greek/Latin, obviously.

>>24543245
Also, the calligraphy/paleography is dope and should be popularised more - too bad many of those manuscripts aren't even digitised yet (let alone in high quality)

>>24540407 (OP)
How does one deal with irregular imperfects in ancient greek? For example https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%BD%CF%89
ᾰ̓ποκρῑ́νω transforms into ᾰ̓πέκρῑνον (Why did ᾰ̓πο- transform into ᾰ̓πέ?).

>>24543270
It is the augment, an Indo-European prefix to indicate that the action takes place in the past. It usually is ἐ‑ and it is attached to the root, not the preposition, so in ἀποκρίνω, *ἀπο‑ἐκρίνω > ἀπέκρινον. This feature survives in Armenian as well.

>>24543270
By the way, that the augment is inserted between the preposition and the verb is regular. Irregularities—which are often superficial—stem rather from suppletion (that is a completely different root for another tense, as in the pair τρέχω and ἔθρεξα for “run”) and from various suffixes in the present tense, which must be identified and removed in order to get the real verbal stem (for example, ἀγγέλλω, “to deliver, carry, announce”, whose aorist is ἤγγελον. The additional ‑λ‑ is due to a hidden present-tense suffix ‑y‑ that lengthened the consonant). Suppletion is commonplace in Sanskrit because it was the original verbal system in Proto-Indo-European. Present, aorist and perfect—and sometimes future—had their own aspect and were felt as different ideas, thus receiving a different stem. Another example is present ὁράω, “I see”, which goes with εἶδον, “I saw/seeing”, ὄψομαι, “I will see” and ὄπωπα, “I have seen”.

>brags about having studied latin composition
>"say it in latin"
>one millions excuses
why are latinfags like this?

>>24543313
>millions
million
>inb4 make typo, lose argument

>>24543313
I don't think you have to speak Latin in order to read it, and composition often refers to a separate exercise with defined rules but otherwise I agree, a decent command of Latin should be sought.

Also typo, you lose.

>>24543145
Read a few, felt like a waste of time. Imho the LISPI method of selecting and slightly adapt actual passages/books is better. Or you can read easier material like non literary stuff from the middle and modern ages. (for example stuff like the Novus Mundus by Vespucci)

From learning both Greek/ Latin, have many of you found it easier picking up the Romance Languages?

>>24543342
Yes. It does help with all Indo-European languages, by the way. Each branch, each language has its own features but the core remains the same. Eight cases, three genders, three numbers, three voices, a verbal system with a combination of three tenses—present, perfect and aorist—four moods—indicative, subjunctive, imperative and optative—and a few particles, the pronoun paradigm which is almost always the same. I know it doesn't sound accurate enough but it does help a lot. You can learn Greek and take on German, Russian or Welsh, that will be fine.

>>24543283
>>24543304
It's interesting. Is there a way to find prepositions attached to the root besides just memorising them all? Where did you learn all that about PIE?

>>24543357
>You can learn Greek and take on German, Russian or Welsh, that will be fine.
tbqh ig the daughter languages have changed too much (e.g. russian has lost the PIE aspect system, german has no aspect system at all, none of the daughter languages has all eight cases, dual is extremely rare, cognates are very cryptic and do not really help). and german case system is probably even more complex than the slavic/greek/latin ones just because there is no way to infer the word's gender from the word itself.

>>24543397
There's no such way but the list isn't long, and it's easier to memorize their individual meaning to guess what the verb is about (for example διαβάλλω, “to throw over, to throw across” from βάλλω, “throw” and διά, “across”). Sometimes you will even find two such suffixes, when the first one is not longer understood as a suffix, or when you want to lump additional nuance, such as συμπάρειμι, which is εἰμί, “be” + παρά, “besides”, meaning together “to arrive, be present”, and to which σύν, “together” is added, meaning ultimately “to go by together”. It's commonplace to have a lot of variation in poetry because it's an easy way to fix a verse metric-wise.

For Proto-Indo-European there's a good textbook from Clackson, “Indo-European Linguistics An Introduction”, Cambridge, 2007. It requires some bases in Latin but most chapters can be read without too much trouble.

>>24543415
Yes, but the features never increase in scope, they always decrease, which makes it easier. When the nominal system collapses, the function of a defunct case will simply be managed by another, such as the instrumental with the ablative in Latin and both with the dative in Greek. Once again, each language is unique but there's an important core that remains—after all, this is what makes them all Indo-European languages.

>>24543313
>dance monkey!!
>”No.”
>w-why are latinfags like this

>>24543595
>I speak perfect Chinese
>ok, say something
>I'M NOT YOUR MONKEY

>>24543313
Sorry, I can't understand your post. Could you rewrite it in Latin please?

(I never learned how to read English, only to write it.)

>>24540407 (OP)
As much as I love the classics what's the point of spending years trying to master Latin and Greek when I'll never be able to write something good as compared to my own language?

>>24543707
Because, unlike in English, no one else will be able to tell just how bad your writing is.

>>24543707
The main purpose of Latin and Greek is to read Latin and Greek authors, that's all. Besides, what most people painfully try to achieve nowadays used to be commonplace education a century or so ago, at least for the upper class.

>>24543707
which current do you wish to tap into? the ancient drums or modern soi?

>>24543612
You would understand too if you knew what it feels like being asked by ten different people in the same day to say some random shit in a foreign language(that they don't even know) just to "prove" that you speak it.

>>24543780
>what it feels like being
holy ESL

>>24543342
Romance languages are stupidly easy, like a literal retard should be able to learn any of those without any effort. The first language I learnt was a romance language and I don't even remember doing it, they're that easy.

>>24543800
conjugation alone filters 99% of people

>>24543415
>just because there is no way to infer the word's gender from the word itself.
That's not entirely true, with a set of a few dozen rules of thumb based on word endings and meaning categories you can get the gender of German nouns right probably 85%-90% of the time.
>>24543425
>the features never increase in scope, they always decrease
This is not entirely true; grammaticalization is always an active process, or PIE wouldn't have had anywhere to get those complexities from in the first place. For example, PIE didn't have consonant mutations like Irish, or a mandatory distinction between present progressive and present habitual like English, or noun classifiers like Bengali.

>>24543787
No, "what it feels like" is native English, the markedly ESL form would be "how it feels like". (Native English will say "how it feels", but not "how it feels like".)

>>24544315
>tfw EFL
>tfw grew up around so many ESLs and EFLs raised by ESLs that "how it feels like" doesn't seem unnatural

>>24543707
Personal enrichment.
Same reason to eat at fancy restaurants instead of eating Nutritional Supplement #3 for every meal.

It's about putting a little spice in life, 'non.

>>24543342
im native romance speaker and certainly considering most words have latin and greek roots it has the effect of elucidating almost every word's origin

>>24540415
I wish that site were more active, although for a Latin "Chan" what else can you expect.
Also
> Tabernam intrans psittacus quidam tabernarium rogat num pira vendat. Negante tabernario, exit psittacus.
> Altero die psittacus redit rursusque "Habesne pira?" rogat. Cui tabernarius "Pira non habeo" dicit.
> Tertio die psittacus eandem intrans tabernam "Habesne pira?" rogat, rursusque tabernarius "Pira non habeo" inquit.
> Ita nonnullis diebus psittacus "Habesne pira?", tabernarius contra "Pira non habeo".
> At ille iam iratus sic avi "Audi me, stulte" inquit, "iam fere milies tibi dixi me pira non vendere, ergo si cras ausus eris rursus idem rogare, te includam in amphora ut fame consumaris". Quo audito psittacus timens exit.
> Die autem proximo denuo in tabernam venit psittacus, qui sic rogat: "Habesne amphoras?". Tabernarius: "Non habeo". Tunc avis "Itaque" inquit "habesne pira?"
Risi

Has anyone here read Hypnerotomachia Poliphili?

Copying a post from /int/ language thread because they directed me here.
I am going to be taking Greek in about a month, specifically an intensive Greek course at my college, focused mainly on classical Greek.
Any general tips on learning Greek? It will be my second language by the way.

>>24545307
study every day

>>24545307
Classical Greek is an endurance test, like organic chemistry. When it was required, it used to be *the* freshman filter subject in US colleges, not Calculus. There will seem to be an impossible number of rules and exceptions at first. Do not get discouraged. The good thing about Greek is that a disproportionate number of the greatest writers ever to live used it, and they all use the language's complicated grammar to its fullest extent, meaning that practice is abundant. Read, read, and read some more.
Also I hear Italian Athenaze and Logos: Lingual Graeca are good early reading practice. I believe it, but they came after my time.

>>24545307
Google nifty greek handouts, find the UChicago website, get the λύω paradigm, print it out, memorize it by doing multiple passes a day. Start by doing present primary indicative (top left), then secondary (below that), then subjunctive (below that, lengthened vowel signpost), then future (sigma signpost, top middle), then aorist, etc. Ignore imperatives and participles for a while. Try to feel the logic and come up with mnemonics: "oh this is just this signposted pattern with this other pattern added." Do the same for a Greek noun declension paradigm (like pic related).

You will save yourself 80% of the initial pain if you do this since so much of your early learning will be brute forcing verb conjugation. You have lots of time so 30-60 minutes a day will go a long way.

I also recommend doing the first few chapters of your Greek textbook preemptively. Email the professor and ask which one you will be using. This will get you past the initial bewilderment phase, and then when you do it in class you can focus on really learning instead of just getting your bearings.

That's what I wish I had done before taking a similar course. So much of learning Greek is coming with strategies for remembering things that honestly aren't that hard to remember, and getting extensive reading in. But the problem is, you're doing that while ALSO wading through all your rookie mistakes. If you can remove the latter from your agenda of day to day bullshit, it can actually be fun. Also don't underestimate your ability to memorize these things. You will be reciting them to yourself in the shower within a week, and beyond that they become instinctive and you just "feel" the genitiveness of certain constructions.

>>24544307
You're right but the core remains. I'm not saying that someone can learn Greek and then he's fluent in Russian or Italian for no reason, but the framework is roughly the same, so it wouldn't be as queer as, I don't know, Hebrew or Chinese.

>>24545307
Greek or Ancient Greek? It isn't the same and Ancient Greek really isn't meant to be spoken.

>>24545408
I strongly disagree with memorising a paradigm. You will immediately become overwhelmed, confused by similar structures that you won't understand, lost amidst the innumerable idioms—not to mention that Greek, unlike Latin, has a mountain of forms that are irregular only in appearance, and which a sound understanding of the verbal system greatly clarifies; the same is true for a lot of nominal paradigms such as with ἀληθής, νοῦς, γένος, or the comparative in ‑ίων. Latin and Greek morphologies are rule-governed and pattern-based. Overemphasis on memorisation discourages learners from recognising analogies across declensions and conjugations. Someone trained to see these regularities can extrapolate unfamiliar forms, which are numerous, and thus reduces the need to accumulate unconvenient tables. This method is the one that has been used without much fruit in schools for the past century—repeating, rosa, rosa, rosam, rosae, rosa, rosa—and it was a disaster. You should rather study a function first, tie all the required forms to that function, understand the morphological basis and then practice in real sentences.

>>24544307
>with a set of a few dozen rules of thumb based on word endings and meaning categories you can get the gender of German nouns right probably 85%-90% of the time.

Then could you recommend me something to read about it? I'd really appreciate it.

Hello anons newfag here, I know this is the language learning thread but I wanted to ask a good big one volume (two three volumes are ok too but I can't afford a 13 volumes set or something) modern history book for extensive coverage on Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome, the kind that universities use as a course book for their syllabus.
I have made a nice list on amazon from the recommendations I've found from google but then I realised that it's history so if I buy like 3 books I will read 80% of the same thing thrice :D
I wouldn't mind one book for greece and one book for rome either I just want to start learning from their origins.

>>24545908
Ancient Greece: A Political, Social and Cultural History is the standard introduction to Greek history at University
Since it's the standard, you should be able to find a used copy for cheap
A History of Rome: Down to the Reign of Constantine is another great book which should be easy to find used for cheap
Just be aware that these are written for a University level, they will be dense and might take some time to get used to
There's also the Routledge History of the Ancient World which again can be bought used but imo they're quite dense and cover 6 volumes but I found Greece in the Making 1200-479 BC to be interesting

>>24545531
>Ancient Greek really isn't meant to be spoken
>be ancient greek
>can't speak because your language isn't meant to be spoken
>become the greatest writers that humanity have ever witnessed
amazing life hack

>>24545367
>Classical Greek is an endurance test
this is true, classical greeks didn't really fully learnt their language until they were in their early 30s, that's probably why they were such great philosophers.

>>24545940
Clever. Do you speak Ancient Greek? Let's hear it, make a vocaroo

>>24545966
He didn't say he was,he said entire civilizations could do it. Be honest:you're angry you can't put down the controller and focus.

>>24545975
Do you?

>>24545966
It isn't meant to be spoken althoughtalbeit

>>24545979
No,why? Are you looking for someone to hold your hand?

>>24545966
It isn't meant to be spoken.

>>24545782
Not that user but you can check Durrell, “Hammer's German Grammar and Usage”, Chicago, 2002, 2–13. There have been new editions since but that's quite comprehensive.

>>24545940
Greek literature is, for the most part, written in an artificial language that bears little relation to the language spoken in everyday life of which, moreover, we have but scant traces. Greek shares in this regard little with Latin, whose classical idiom served as the basis for Ecclesiastical Latin and Neo-Latin, so that it was possible for centuries to speak the Latin of Cicero and Seneca—many, during the golden age of the respublica litterarum, such as Montaigne, even spoke Latin as their mother tongue—whereas nothing equivalent existed for Greek. This, indeed, was a source of discomfort for seventeenth-century philologists, who maintained that speaking Latin was indispensable for understanding the text, while no one in fact spoke the Greek of Homer, Pindar, or Callimachus. Granted, it was meant, at least, to be declaimed. The point remains unchanged—Greek is not learned like Italian or French, by getting to ask for directions or order a cup of coffee. This, I had thought, was too obvious to require clarification. Apologies.

>>24545531
I don't think you'll immediately be overwhelmed by memorizing 6 forms of luein. I have more faith in that anon. And he's going to have to do this anyway, pretty much from day one. What I was recommending to him was basically that he frontload (and get a sense of) some of the more tedious parts of the class. I see no real difference between memorizing the forms as they're introduced piecemeal across 5-10 chapters and memorizing them in the preceding month, given that you can memorize them with about the same difficulty as learning a song by heart. Paradigms exist for a reason.

And yes, while Greek has tons of exceptions and weird forms you just have to learn, learning a representative skeleton is a good idea.

On the contrary I think it's your post that is needlessly discouraging. That anon won't have any idea what you're talking about in half of what you said. You seem to have a bias against rote memorization, but I'm not even recommending ROTE memorization, I'm recommending mindful memorization of one sample paradigm of a simple, regular verb (the kind of verb you will be encountering for probably the first half of your textbook). I don't agree at all that he should study it "functionally" or see it in the wild first necessarily. You have to remember the first thing anyone learning Greek is going to experience is a soup of overlapping and interacting forms and structures that seem to exponentially complicate one another, and that this is an illusion. Half of learning Greek (or Latin) is realizing that what you're looking at can be arranged into a hierarchy of easiest to easyish to tricky to "okay I actually need to think about this." I'm just suggesting that he tackle the easiest stuff first and get a taste of the easyish stuff in the month before he goes into class.

I got A+'s in the intensive Latin and Greek summer courses I took and I chalk a lot of that up to having a mental visual of various paradigms so that the language felt fundamentally familiar and "tameable." I was able to focus in on what the final exam questions were ACTUALLY trying to get me to parse out, because I wasn't distracted by low-hanging fruit that was easily plucked. It's like saying "don't learn basic formulae and functions when learning calculus, just wade in and experience them in their habitat." No, you actually can and should just memorize some stuff IN TANDEM WITH learning how and why it works. Your brain will focus better on the how and why if the what is already familiar.

>>24546039
>written in an artificial language that bears little relation to the language spoken
>no one spoke it
>most of it grammar is made up
>somehow people still understood it
>how did they came up with all these unspoken grammar rules or where they took them from is still a mystery
>probably they were taught by aliens or something

>>24546041
>tons of exceptions and weird forms
>weird
>made up language
>somehow they decided not only to use made up grammar rules, but they decided to introduce all these irregularities for some reason too

>>24546050
I mean, this still happens to this day. Spics for example made up a bunch of "subjunctive" forms, which there is no way they use in their everyday language, no one really knows how to use them, but somehow they still pretend to use them when foreigners point out their bullshit.

>>24546041
Don't get me wrong, at one point it's necessary to know all of them. The issue I take here is to cram through tables, that doesn't seem the right approach to me. Most modern Greek courses rely on limiting the initial scope, for example keeping the passive voice for later. My course only taught 1S, 3S and 3P and only later we got to get back on the paradigm to learn about the rest. The full nominal system has five cases, three genders and two numbers (ignoring dual), three declensions with at least twelve patterns, plus the transformation caused to the theme, meaning about 360 forms. The full conjugation of a regular verb such as λύω has more as less the same amount of forms. My point is that no student should just read a table and try to memorise all of them, especially in such a heavily rule-based morphology. I'm glad it somehow worked for you but learning paradigms in isolation is suboptimal.

>That anon won't have any idea what you're talking about in half of what you said.
I replied to you. I said there >>24540462 what I would recommend, sticking to a textbook (more than one is welcomed, I approve of Luke Ranieri's when he recommend progressing through multiple references at once), moving as fast as possible to real material. As for practical tips in translation, I'm not sure that's what he's looking for, though I'd be happy to share.

>I don't agree at all that he should study it "functionally"
I think it's an absolute necessity to deal with this as early as possible. Greek tenses for example do not correspond to ours (whether in English or most European languages), and cases carry a precise meaning which, if ignored, confuse the student as why there's dative here and ablative there, with little grasp of the underlying logic. It saves a lot of time. Take the aorist. If I tell a student “the aorist is the present perfect”, they will not understand its presence in participles that clearly have a present meaning, or in gnomic statements. Taking the time to understand that it expresses aspect zero strikes me as critical. I'm not sure we really disagree about anything, my point was on rote memorisation, and I might have been mistaken when reading your first message.

>>24546039
what about the comedies and the less polished prose works, wouldn't they constitute a base solid enough to repopularize the active usage of a more down to earth spoken Attic for example? I mean I agree that most of what is extant is high brown but at the same time with the down to earth nature of the characters in comedies it seems to me you have window into a more rustic register

>>24546086
I didn't say to cram tables though, I said to learn ONE table, the simplest one that is in a convenient chart for a reason. The reason being that everybody learns it. I don't see why you should limit the scope. The original website that popularized Lingua Latina recommends grinding 20x as much as I did, and if I'm not mistaken it reflects the original intent of LLPSI. Luke Ranieri recommends rote memorizing as a prelude. I would never recommend what those people are recommending because I agree it would unnecessarily swamp someone just starting out, although for a certain kind of person I think it could work well.

Again I think you are overcorrecting or projecting some stance onto me so that you can react against it. But think of how it's actually playing out: I recommended that that anon learn a basic masculine, feminine, and neuter noun, just to get the feel for it, and also that he learn a single regular verb. You come in talking about how there are 360,000 total forms and the OP should shield himself from the radiance of this sun of infinite morphological complexity lest he be blinded permanently. What is more likely to discourage?

There's no "somehow" to it. I had to learn the forms in the course of the class, which also meant in the course of going through the textbook, so I did. If you complete Latin 101 and can't more or less produce a paradigm of amare something went wrong. But again I'm not recommending, like Luke Ranieri and many LLPSI immersionists, that the other anon memorize ALL this as prep for his class. I'm recommending he get a first feel for something that will just be distracting gruntwork while he's doing the first few chapters anyway, so that the first full paragraph of "Socrates goes onto the ship. Socrates looks at Plato. Socrates says 'Ho, Plato!', (etc.)" he sees looks less intimidating.

Also Ranieri recommends doing 14 different books simultaneously, I've watched his videos. He has a method for extremists or purists, which again I think can work for a certain kind of mind, but I find it odd that you're recommending his views over my very boring ordinary one while treating me like the old-timer recommending vast rote memorization schemes.

The other anon you cite (in your middle paragraph) isn't me so maybe you are mixing me up with other posters. I wouldn't even reply this much because I hate these fucking 101 method exchanges in /clg/ if it weren't for the fact that I think the initial anon, the one who asked about his upcoming class, might be misled. There is simply nothing strange about saying "hey, you're gonna be learning this 101 paradigm over a couple weeks anyway, why not get a head start?"

>>24546092
>be greek
>go to the theater
>can't understand a thing because they speak some weird language that barely resembles what I speak at home
>go home
>"how was the play"
>oh it was such a catharsis, I totally got it, I understood everything they said I swear
>>24546041
>I got A+'s in the intensive Latin
Did they teach you the new gender neutral pronouns?

>>24546104
Also adding to this post, I am not trying to be combative and my "101 method exchanges" wasn't a jab at you. I genuinely do just hate these discussions of the ideal method, so normally my approach would be to post my two cents, and if I get rebuked or called a retard or whatever, I'd shrug and let the reader decide.

>>24546068
Xenophon, Aristotle, Plutarch, Herodotus, Thucydides and many others are not "spics".
It would be better for everybody, spics included, if all spoken English resembled those in universities textbooks.

>be roman patrician
>learn greek because that's what patricians do
>get sent to greece as pro consul or something
>need to communicate with gayreeks, can't because the greek I learnt wasn't supposed to be spoken
>I can't understand a word of what they say
>allgreektome.jpeg
>communication is limited to written form
>extremely slow communication
>everything is so slow in the eastern empire that the fall or rome didn't happen until one thousand years later
>economy still sluggish to this day

>>24546092
Aristophanes is indeed the best lead scholars have, along with Lucian and some passages in Achilles Tatius. We're not clueless about it but vernacular only got to be well documented at a later date. You can check a full account of the earliest, full documentation of spoken Greek in Geoffrey Horrocks, “Greek: A History of the Language and Its Speakers”, Oxford, 2013, 273–323.

>>24546104
I'm glad we agree, then. I was under the impression that the list you gave was meant to be learned in a single streak. I strongly disagree with the Ranieri-Dowling method that supposes a lot of rote memorisation, by the way, I just intented to give credit to Ranieri's advice not to stick a single textbook. I agree that there are more than one way to learn and people don't react the same way to a teaching method, but there really are awful methods that mislead learners—I recall a textbook that unbother with writing Greek in Latin script, and countless authors still publish Latin material without the slightest care for vowel length. Sorry for the needless argument.

>>24546120
My point is that highly artificial languages still exist today. Spics and meds are statistically too low IQ to actually be able to use something like the subjunctive, and still they pretend they do.

>>24546138
the subjunctive in Italian is commonly used and you will absolutely sound bad/foreign if you don't employ it regularly and properly, it's not optional

>>24546143
They actually don't in everyday speech. They just make fun of foreigners who have a funny accent and then tell you that they're laughing because you didn't use "the subjunctive".
Meds have had this obsession of writing a language they don't actually speak with incomprehensible made up rules for almost three thousand years.

>>24546151
they do, I'm Italian; literally one of the most popular jokes from 20th century cinema is about low class people not being able to use it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qrD1dh_j7E , I know it's supposedly disappearing in other Romance languages but here it's still pretty much mandatory for «basic» Italian fluency, not fancy

>>24546143
They actually don't in everyday speech. They just make fun of foreigners who have a funny accent and then tell you that they're laughing because you didn't use "the subjunctive".
Meds have had this obsession with writing a language they don't actually speak with incomprehensible made up rules for almost three thousand years.

>>24546132
Nah sorry for being a bit of a dick as well.

>>24546155
>low class people not being able to use it
Thanks for proving my point. Made up shit that you learn in school.

>>24546164
the joke is a deliberate exaggeration because it's totally looked down upon not being able to use it, don't tell me about my country, clown

>>24546166
>not being able to use it
Most of you can't. Just like you are unable to use the normal past tense (passato remoto.) You could just larp as Latin speakers at this point. It's pretty much the same at this point. A people who can't speak their own language lmao.

>>24546143
>>24546155
> falling for bait this obvious

>>24546039
>Greek shares in this regard little with Latin, whose classical idiom served as the basis for Ecclesiastical Latin and Neo-Latin, so that it was possible for centuries to speak the Latin of Cicero and Seneca
What was the Byzantine empire?

>>24546181
No, it's just like Ancient Greek and Latin. They use some grammar rules and phonotactics which I can't wrap my monoglot brain around, and therefore I can assuredly assume that those rules weren't use in normal speech.

>>24545139
If you want something active, try to find the telegram group of Alexius Cosanus. Join some public Latin telegram groups and ask there, I won't be posting a link to it in this godforsaken pic table.

>>24546212
Not only retards on this thread are guilty of this, but even serious philologist sometimes do it. For example, Allen (yes, the one who wrote Vox Latina et alia) didn't believe that Romans could actually "feel" the difference between long and short syllables while listening to poetry, and thought that it was all an act. According to him, a metrical system which wasn't based on accentual patterns, would be "uninteresting".

>>24546229
Where did you read that?

>>24546235
Vox Latina.
The part about the nature of the accent must also be one of the most retarded shit ever written by a philologist.

New Trümmersprache dropped:
https://www.science.org/content/article/mysterious-pre-islamic-script-oman-finally-deciphered

>>24546242
>The part about the nature of the accent must also be one of the most retarded shit ever written by a philologist.
if someone is actually interested, Latin Grammarians on the Latin Accent is an excellent monograph about the subject.

>>24546242
Do you know by any chance the specific passage? I don't recall reading that, I'm interested.

Burgerbrain coping about the subjunctive once again.

>>24546266
page 93 of the 2nd edition (chapter about quantity)
>Vithout some such tension verse lacks force
and interes
>The only difficulty then is to see how the native reader (without theoretical metrical instruction) could build up any such image when the verse itself does its best to conceal it

>>24546286
>>Without some such tension verse lacks force and interest
fucking scans

>>24546282
the rules of conjugation don't exist for them. they had to reduce the grooves, being the lingua franca.

>>24546286
I got it, thanks! Indeed that's a stupid take, I didn't remember it. But again Allen is not that relevant as a scholar. Save for the Vox series which are convenient compendia for the student in classics who need not to bother with larger and fresher references, he hasn't struck me as a memorable author.

>>24546282
>>24546294
Dumbasses, I was just trying to point out how absurd the notion of ancient languages being artificial is.

>>24546302
The thing is that you can find this kind of fallacy everywhere, and everyone can make this mistake.
>not in my language, not real
One of the few cases where the thing about language limiting our perception may actually aply.

>>24546317
Shorey rightfully remarked that many such features happen to be sort of universal when one pay attention to it.

>>24546286
You're misrepresenting what Allen said, and don't seem to understand the concern of that passage. He's not talking about the presence or absence of quantity. He's talking about stress placement in the verse. The first quote is

>It is true that a metrical reading tends to distort the natural rhythm of speech, and is itself monotonous--but the natural rhythm would be present in the mind of the native speaker and would provide the norm against which the tensions of the verse were measured. Without some such tension verse lacks verse and interest.

Allen's talking about the practice of reading Latin verse with ictus stress ("metrical reading"), or reading with normal "prose" stress. What he's actually saying in that sentence is that without the tension between ictus stress and natural stress, the "metrical reading" approach would be uninteresting. He's not using it as an argument to support ictus reading, or as an argument against maintaining normal prose stress, or as an argument that Romans couldn't "actually 'feel' the difference between long and short syllables."

In the next sentence he says this "lack of interest" wouldn't apply to natural "prose" stressed reading, because there would be a counterplay between the stress accent and the verse meter.

>If the verse were read as prose, there could of course also be tension between this reading and a mental image of the strict verse-rhythm.

Then, as you quote, he says it's "a difficulty" to see how Romans built up an inner sense of the meter. Note he says it's a "difficulty," i.e., a question that needs to be answered, not that he positively didn't believe that Romans were able to. That's hardly a sign of "retardation." Usually, critical thinking and the ability to see difficulties is a sign of intelligence (whereas poor reading comprehension, leading you to misrepresent the words of dead writers deprived of the ability to defend themselves, is usually an indication of the opposite). Furthermore, the "difficulty" here is the division of the verse into feet, not, as you falsely claimed, the ability to distinguish between long and short syllables.

Then in the very next sentence, he gives at least a partial answer to the difficulty.

>It is, however, possible that such an image could be constructed in the hexameter by extrapolation from the final two feet, where natural stress and verse rhythm tend towards 100% agreement for both a dactylic and a spondaic foot.

>>24546947
>it's "a difficulty"
It's not a difficulty, the rhythm of the meter is given exclusively by the alternation of long and short syllables. An alien concept to someone who speaks a stress-timed language.
>The only difficulty then is to see how the native reader (without theoretical metrical instruction) could build up any such image when the verse itself does its best to conceal it
Why the fuck would the native reader even need "theoretical metrical instruction"? Are you unable to perceive the natural rhythm of your own language? What kind of sick mind would even reach this conclusion?
>Some writers have avoided the problem by denying that
>Latin verse has any inherent stress or beat (' ictus '), and
>assuming that the rhythm is a matter solely of time-ratios, which
>need not interfere with the stress-pattern of speech-the hypo-
>thesis of 'the delicate ear of the ancients'
>But there are various difficulties inherent in this
>view
Delicate ears? Are we fucking kidding? A clear case of "not in my language, it doesn't exist". Do Nips who speak a mora-timed language with pure pitch accent have "delicate ears", too? Or do they just speak a different language?
The arguments that follow don't make any sense. They don't refute anything. Different meters have different patterns. When quantity stopped being phonological, and instead accent became phonological (the only function of the accent was to delimit phonological words, not to distinguish between words, and was entirely determined by quantity, aside from a few exceptions) the meter changed and became accentual.
Not just my opinion. Allen says, "Some writers have avoided the problem..." maybe because there is no problem?
Read the chapter about the accent and compare what he says with a proper work with empirical evidence like "Stress and Non-Stress Accent" by Beckman.
I've also read somewhere that the coincidence of the ictus in the last feet may be a mere statistical coincidence (supported by statistical evidence, but I'm not able to find the paper right now), and, to give some credit to Allen, that accent may have played a role similar to syncopation. But that's it.
And being bold and having the courage to be wrong is essential to the scientific spirit.

Or maybe Latin poetry wasn't supposed to be spoken either, kek.

>>24546947
>He's not talking about the presence or absence of quantity.
And btw I never said or implied something like that in my post. It seems that it's you who are misrepresenting.

>>24547253
>>24547198
On the contrary, it is you who are misrepresenting yourself.

In >>24546229, you stated,
>Allen (yes, the one who wrote Vox Latina et alia) didn't believe that Romans could actually "feel" the difference between long and short syllables while listening to poetry, and thought that it was all an act.

What does it mean to say Roman's couldn't "feel the difference between long and short syllables" except to mean that Romans couldn't distinguish between long and short syllables? And Allen doesn't say that. Again, if you read the whole section, he's not talking about the rhythm of long and short syllables, but specifically the division of the verse into feet. Maybe that's not quite what you intended to say (and you should clarify if that's the case), but your words will (and have been) naturally be interpreted as such. And you (I can only assume an ESL) are hyper-focused on the word "difficulty," misunderstanding all the nuance of that word.

To give an analogy, which might illustrate the nature of the "difficulty" in Latin verse, if you have any musical training, you know that music is divided into measures, which are further divided into beats, which can subdivided further into smaller fractions of time. To the listener, the sense of beats and measures is communicated primarily by stress, and when natural stress of the meter is not applied, the sense of measures or even beats are difficult to discern.

The question is, if a Roman grew up speaking Latin as a native language but had no exposure to quantitative verse, would they by their own unaided powers immediately recognize the verses of the Aeneid as being divided into six feet of dactyls and spondees, when they had never learned what a dactyl or a spondee was? I think the answer is probably not. Let's use another analogy. Is the average native English speaker, when they first encounter Shakespeare, able to clearly recognize and describe the meter of the verse? I don't have any citations other than my personal experience, but I think the answer is probably not. If the average English speaker has a hard time discerning the meter of Shakespeare without any prior training, why should we think that the average Roman would have immediately understood the meter of Virgil without any prior training?

>>24547198
>And being bold and having the courage to be wrong is essential to the scientific spirit.

And I commend you for having the courage (and facility) to be wrong, but it's also important to have an open mind, and the courage to admit when you are wrong.

Bear in mind, I'm not criticizing your understanding of Latin verse, or anything related to languages. Your knowledge may be vast indeed. But you are misrepresenting what Allen said. And even if you were right, I think we need to step back and restrain ourselves when we are attacking someone like Allen, who wrote a very useful book and was only ever a friend to us, and flippantly calling him a "retard" in this forum. How many books have you written for our benefit?

>I've also read somewhere that the coincidence of the ictus in the last feet may be a mere statistical coincidence (supported by statistical evidence, but I'm not able to find the paper right now), and, to give some credit to Allen, that accent may have played a role similar to syncopation.

This would be interesting to share if you could find it. It sounds like an awfully big "coincidence."

>Delicate ears? Are we fucking kidding? A clear case of "not in my language, it doesn't exist".

The phrase "delicate ear of the ancients" is a quotation from someone else, and he gives a citation for it. I'm not going to try to track down the work he's citing (R. H. Stetson, "Bases of Phonology," p. 71), but what it probably means is that native speakers of certain language have ears (or more accurately, minds) attuned to features of their language that are lost on foreigners. Your example of pitch accent in Japanese is a good one. Most Anglophones have a hard time hearing Japanese pitch accent, and they never attain a native-like proficiency at it. I very much doubt that "delicate ear of the ancients" was intended to mean (in your words) "not in my language, it doesn't exist". Since you clearly love reading, maybe you can share some quotes to support your interpretation.

>>24547419
>What does it mean to say Roman's couldn't "feel the difference between long and short syllables" except to mean that Romans couldn't distinguish between long and short syllables?
That's what Allen implies when he says that the classical verse couldn't consist exclusively of "time-ratios".
>how the native reader (without theoretical metrical instruction) could build up any such image
A native speaker without training would not be able to perform a metrical analysis, but would be absolutely able to recognize rhythm and regularity, just like someone without formal musical training can listen and enjoy music or sing songs. Any speaker of any language can recognize when he's listening to prose or when he's listening to some sort of metrical or rhythmical pattern. Aren't you able to recognize the rhythm of a song even in a different language?
There is no reason to suppose that the verse had to consist of anything other than "time-ratios". Again, this is not just my opinion, but the most common one among philologists. For some reason Allen supposes that this is not possible, or at least that it presents some "difficulties", probably because his own language doesn't work like that.
In fact I'm pretty sure that if any of us could hear a native Latin speaker reading a bunch of Latin verses we would recognize the rhythm and regularity as well.

>>24547451
>"retard"
The retard part was about his opinion about the nature of the Latin accent, since he is pretty much calling ancient grammarians "retards" as well.

>>24545782
This article is the main bit of information I'm going off of, I made myself a deck of flashcards based on it:
https://germanwithlaura.com/noun-gender/

>>24546068
Hearing the subjunctive forms in use is as easy as tuning in to your nearest radio station in a Romance language.

>>24546159
I once conversed online (each in our own language, as we each understood the other's better than we spoke it) with a Belgian who wrote in poorly spelled French, and who, when asked about the subjunctive said he doesn't really use it, then proceeded to use it a few sentences later.

>>24546229
Not that I doubt that Roman meter was based on length, but out of curiosity do you know of any language spoken today that bases poetic meter on length? There are plenty of living languages with phonemic vowel length, after all.

>>24546304
We deal with the same thing in Classical Chinese, some people think it was a sort of pasigraphy rather than an actual language. I'll grant that what we have in writing may be a bit more telegraphic and polished than ordinary speech, but I see no reason to believe the vocabulary and grammar do not essentially reflect those of spoken Old Chinese.

>>24547635
Japanese poetry uses morae.

>>24547805
Total morae- a long vowel is treated the same as two short vowels. Not quite the same thing I'm talking about.

>>24547635
Hungarian
Many strongly Sanskrit-influenced languages
Often in Arabic though that's a continuation of a basically classical tradition

Nowhere (afaik) is it still so strict as in Greek and Latin. That's partly because many Indo-European languages have become stress- or syllable-timed, but the biggest reason is that poetic conventions have loosened all over the world. Even where poetry still plays some part in society, doggerel dominates.

>>24546256
I am
Thank you for a good post in another abhorrent thread

>>24547871
partly
because many
Indo-European languages
have become stress- or syllable-timed,
but the biggest reason
is that poetic
conventions
have loosened
all over the world.
Even where
poetry
still plays some part
in society,
doggerel dominates.
FTFY
t. Rupi Kaur

>>24543415
How is the PIE aspect system different from the Russian one?

>>24548854
AFAIK they are somewhat similar by an occasion, but they are not historically related.

>>24547635
Finnish poetry can be based on either stress or length.

ἀνεκάς

>>24550618
>ἀνεκάς
I presume it means 'bump', amiright?

>>24551400
up! upwards!

>>24542160
a Chagatai anon showed up once, he's the one who gave the recs in the FAQ, then we basically never spoke again about it

So, my goal is to read plato, but I want to start reading asap to train my skills. Some people say that the NT is the easiest "real" text written in ancient greek. Perseus says that the top 75% of the words is ~360 words, it's the same for the plato's Republic. Theoretically, koine is a different dialect, but wouldn't it be rational to start with an easier text? Is it gonna be useful when reading attic texts?

>>24552451
Hello. What is your level of Greek? Plato, aside from the most complex dialogues such as the Timaeus and the Parmenides, is an author who can be studied quite fast. The differences between biblical Greek and classical Greek are fairly minor, provided you do not attempt the more challenging attic prose of the orators. You must pay close attention to some features that are uncommon elsewhere, such as the abundance of καί—whenever there's a new paragraph or apodoses—the unusual word order, the replacement of adjectives with genitives, or εἶς often found instead of τις. Compared to the fifth century, there's also a decline of the optative and of infinitive and participal clauses. You might also read Plutarch, Alciphron, Lucian, Aesop, or Aelian. Xenophon is an excellent author for beginners, too.

>>24552553
>What is your level of Greek?
I know some grammar (I've read two grammar books), and some basic verbs. I guess It'd be right to say that I don't know it at all because I haven't read anything yet.

I plan to learn all the words from the Dickinson list, and then start learning the most used words from specific works. What percentage of words (statistically) do you think is enough for reading with a dictionary?

>You might also read Plutarch, Alciphron, Lucian, Aesop, or Aelian. Xenophon is an excellent author for beginners, too.
Who do you think is the easiest one?

>>24551576

>>24552906
>what percentage of words (statistically) do you think is enough for reading with a dictionary?
It’s hard to say. I think a core vocabulary of 300–400 words is necessary first to begin working well with a dictionary. Dickinson's list is excellent, also consult and cross-check with the ACL lists (https://www.aclclassics.org/Exams/National-Greek-Exam), which are somewhat more modest but well constructed. In terms of grammar and syntax, I believe it is essential to get the following.
- the definite and indefinite article, the pronoun, and the pronominal adjective (ἐγώ, σύ, αὐτός; ὅδε, οὗτος, ἐκεῖνος; ἐμός, σός; τις, τίς; ποῖος, πόσος);
- the full nominal system (first, second, and third declensions, including ‑ις and ‑εύς stems, neuters in ‑ος, and adjectives in ‑ής and ‑ύς);
- adjective comparison, both comparative and superlative forms;
- the principal prepositions;
- the verbal system, at least the four indicative tenses, in all voices. Dual may be set aside;
- the expression of negation;
- the main conditional constructions;
- infinitival, relative, and participial clauses;
- the use of ἄν;
- the genitive absolute;
- uses of participles;
- the principal types of subordinate clauses.
It might seem like a lot to learn but it's not that much, a good textbook should supply all of these halfway.

>>24552906
>>24553002
Whenever you're reading, always focus on the verb and translate it first. The verb is the absolute nexus. Never go word-by-word. For example, when you encounter (Alciphr. Ep. 3.10),

ὁ κάκιστος ἀλεκτρυὼν καὶ μιαρώτατος, ὅς με ἡδὺν ὄνειρον θεώμενον ἀναβοήσας ἐξήγειρεν.

The first element you should spot is ‑ρεν (3S aorist ending) and ‑σας (aorist participle), “(he) awakened”, “having cried out”. Based on this you can spot the subject ἀλεκτρυὼν, “the rooster”, tie it with the neighbouring modifiers, κάκιστος καὶ μιαρώτατος, which bears superlative suffix ‑ώτατος, thus “worst and dirtiest”. Με is the obvious accusative, to which we can then tie θεώμενον whose ‑(ό)μενον means it's a mediopassive participle, “viewing, contemplating”. We can finally throw in the couple ἡδὺν ὄνειρον, “pleasant dream”, and we can translate,

“Most wicked and foul rooster, who have crowed and woke me up as I luxuriate in a sweet dream.”

As soon as you are able to read and think in Greek without the aid of English, it will become effortless. This is why, alongside one’s formal studies, it is important to focus on authors who are easy and pleasant to read—comparable to Caesar, Cornelius Nepos, or Suetonius in Latin. For this reason, it is best to avoid difficult prose at the outset, with a few selected passages of Isocrates at most, as well as complex texts—Aristotle is not suitable—and poetry. Since Homer is often a goal for a lot of readers, you may cautiously venture into the Iliad or the Odyssey, but with Hesiod, Pindar, Bacchylides, Sappho, Alcaeus, or Alcman, the effort required is just not worth it.

>>24552906
>>24553010
The more you translate, the easier it will get, and your mind will instinctively take apart the sentence with ease. Always focus on the main verb, and segment the text in little pieces around it. On the other hand, when a line doesn't seem to make any sense, look for a verb outside, a lot of Greek authors love to write a whole set of clauses which all connect to a single, initial verb. For example in this passage (Ar. Lys. 574–86),

πρῶτον μὲν ἐχρῆν, ὥσπερ πόκον, ἐν βαλανείῳ
ἐκπλύναντας τὴν οἰσπώτην ἐκ τῆς πόλεως, ἐπὶ κλίνης
ἐκραβδίζειν τοὺς μοχθηροὺς καὶ τοὺς τριβόλους ἀπολέξαι,
καὶ τούς γε συνισταμένους τούτους καὶ τοὺς πιλοῦντας ἑαυτοὺς
ἐπὶ ταῖς ἀρχαῖσι διαξῆναι καὶ τὰς κεφαλὰς ἀποτῖλαι·
εἶτα ξαίνειν εἰς καλαθίσκον κοινὴν εὔνοιαν ἅπαντας
καταμειγνύντας· τούς τε μετοίκους κεἴ τις ξένος ᾖ φίλος ὐμῖν,
κεἴ τις ὀφείλῃ τῷ δημοσίῳ, καὶ τούτους ἐγκαταμεῖξαι·
καὶ νὴ Δία τάς γε πόλεις, ὁπόσαι τῆς γῆς τῆσδ᾿ εἰσὶν ἄποικοι,
διαγιγνώσκειν ὅτι ταῦθ' ὑμῖν ὥσπερ τὰ κατάγματα κεῖται
χωρὶς ἕκαστον· κᾆτ' ἀπὸ τούτων πάντων τὸ κάταγμα λαβόντας
δεῦρο ξυνάγειν καὶ ξυναθροίζειν εἰς ἕν, κἄπειτα ποιῆσαι
τολύπην μεγάλην κᾆτ' ἐκ ταύτης τῷ δήμῳ χλαῖναν ὑφῆναι.

Where do ξυνάγειν, ξυναθροίζειν, ὑφῆναι come from in 585–6? You might believe they connect to λαβόντας, which is not sound in grammar and meaning. The answer is that you must go straight back to the top and consider ἐχρῆν (574) as the main verb governing an ocean of infinitive clauses. Λαβόντας happens to be an unrelated participle linked to an implicit ἡμᾶς, which ought to be inferred from the context. The infinitives here describe what, according to Lysistrata, the assembled Greek women ought to do. It is made easier when you look at the conjunctions. The repeated variations of εἶτα converge so everything being said here does depend upon what has previously been stated, while maintaining the same pattern. This kind of embedded syntax is commonplace. Also, even when reading a modern edition fit for general readership, you must forget about punctuation. Periods, commas, semicolons and quotation marks are foreign to Greek writers, and as you can see here, excessive reliance on it can and will mislead your translation.

>>24552906
>who do you think is the easiest one?
As for your second question, Xenophon strikes me as the simplest author to read—yet still very instructive, the Oeconomicus, the Cyropaedia, or even his treatise on hunting are all fascinating to go through—but Aesop and Alciphron, or even Menander to a lesser degree, have the advantage of offering small “capsules”, short, self-contained stories, which may be less discouraging for a beginner.

>>24549207
I checked it out a bit and it's an interesting story. Slavic languages in their early stages were already losing PIE aspects, but a new system with a different morphology arose.
Curiously Bulgarian, the only Slavic language to have lost the case system, still distinguishes between perfect and aorist, but at the tense level, not aspectually.
Fascinating how things come and go, and come back again, over the generations

>>24552906
so you read straight raw grammar but didn't go through any textbook getting you to slowly memorize some basic lexicon? seems bold to rough up some most common words out of a dry lexicon then go straight to real Greek, I respect it, don't get me wrong, but you could get overwhelmed if you also aren't particularly interested in the chosen book's content
you could maybe try your luck with an easy reader first and see how you feel

bump

How does /clg/ realize Greek pitch accent? I've been watching some videos on Japanese pitch accent, and it seems like their system could serve as a practical model. Or does anyone know of any other living languages that would be a better model?

>>24541580
Greek has easier nouns, Latin has easier verbs.

>>24546199
If you want your posts to get views stop using a question as a sarcastic retort-especially when you open up by being wrong.

>>24554945
Greek is more like Chinese because it's tonal. I'm pretty sure the circumflexes were gratuitously over-added in the 19th century though.

>>24554945
It is a pitch accent. Vowels are pronounced a fifth higher, thanks to Dionysius of Halicarnassus.

>>24554985
It's inappropriate, every syllable is independent in a tonal language, which isn't the case for Greek.

>>24554945
I've plotted the pitch accent of the first verse of the Illiad according to the Japanese system. It's just supposed to be a discrete plot of low and high points, so don't pay attention to slight differences in height or slope. Each point is one mora. Besides visualizing pitch, I can see this sort of exercise being helpful for visualizing the meter.

For those who are totally unfamiliar with Japanese pitch accent, I found these videos (among others) helpful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6AoilGEers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt04eg9T2sE

For ancient Greek itself, I know there is at least one passage from some ancient author that describes the pitch accent in some detail, but I can't remember what it was called. Does anyone know the passage I'm thinking of? It says high and low differs by an interval of a fifth.

>>24554985
I suspect the tonal system of Chinese is probably not a good analogy. Note that Greek words have at most one pitch accent mark per word. That's more like Japanese than Chinese.

>>24554993
Thanks for anticipating the answer to my question while I was typing it.

You're welcome! Why did you rise the pitch earlier, though?

>>24555009
I assume you mean in θεά. I was applying the rules of Japanese pitch accent. It might not be correct in Greek, but remember also that the Japanese plotting system just consists of discrete low and high points, and is a simplification of the actual pitch. My understanding of Japanese pitch accent (based on a handful of Youtube videos) is that they consider the first mora high or low. If the first mora is accented, it is high, and the remaining moras are all marked low. If the the accent is later in the word, the first mora is marked low, the following moras until the accent are marked high, and the moras after the accent are marked low. That only tells part of the story. The second video I posted explains that words tend to rise to the accented mora and drop off after that. Applied to θεά, even though both moras of ά are marked high, there can still be an internal rise.

I checked a few examples of recitations I could find on YouTube. To my ears, it seems that they do rise mostly on the first mora of ά, with possibly a less pronounced rise into the second mora.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAkQrwfvL1U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXtLoGORAq0&t=539

This one is less clear. I think he rises slightly on the first mora of α, but then his voice collapses into breathiness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1KkZH6hWyU

>>24555103
>I was applying the rules of Japanese pitch accent. It might not be correct in Greek
thank you for your service professor

>>24555103
I do not believe that the Japanese accent is the most accurate analogy to explain the way in Greek, the accent does not “linger” in the same manner, especially in poetry when metres are highly restrictive and somewhat artificial on the delivery. There can be synecphonesis, that is an incomplete coalescence when two vowels are realised as one long syllable, which is commonplace with ‑ε‑, but that only means the sequence is to be treated as one, abnormal note accent-wise.

A regular system is enough. I tried to write down the same verse in Paint, which is a better way to see how the accent react, in my opinion. I don't think Japanese is too relevant here. Note by the way that a—rather crude—system of ancient musical notation has existed since at least the third century BCE. A comprehensive and critical discussion of the ancient notation is found in Egert Pöhlmann's “Denkmäler altgriechischer Musik”, Nuremberg, 1970, which provides an edition of forty-or-so passages—mostly papyri findings from the Hellenistic period—accompanied by extensive commentary. For the origins of the system, also relevant is Martin L. West, “Ancient Greek Music”, Oxford, 1994, 259–63.

>>24555120
Thanks for the recommendations.

I typed your notation into Musescore to line it up with the words. (I don't know why the Ds are all red. I haven't used MuseScore in a long time.) I'd share the MIDI output if I knew an easy way to post it.

For θεά, what do you think about using English "uh-huh" (the thing people say over and over when they're listening to someone on the phone) as an analogy? The "uh" is pronounced at base level, and the "huh" begins slightly higher and rises to a peak.

>>24555178
Forgot the image.

>>24555183
That's very nice, thanks! Much better than a crude drawing in Paint.

>>24555178
I guess so. That's a sound comparison.

Greek, Hebrew or Latin for a Christian? (Protestant)

>>24555405
ideally all, probably Greek > Hebrew > Latin in order of importance

Would Serbo-Croatian be a good model for reconstructing Latin/Greek accent?
>vowel lengths
>pitch accent

>>24555801
Perhaps but we don't really need any such model, there's an abundance of evidences, writings and various testimonies, we already have a very accurate idea of what the accent was, and how it was pronounced. I already suggested this title earlier but Geoffrey Horrocks, “Greek: A History of the Language and Its Speakers”, Oxford, 2013 gave a full and comprehensive diachronic account of such reconstruction.

>>24555183
this is how I read it too, at the very least if I'm respecting the caesura after θεά

>>24554993
>every syllable is independent in a tonal language
That's not at all true. Chinese has "ao" making the Latin au for example.
>>24555003
>Note that Greek words have at most one pitch accent mark per word.
Neutral tone is a tone and everyone is going off of what Dionysius Thrax and he wasn't very instructive.
>>24554993
>Dionysius of Halicarnassus.
Which text?

>>24555183
kino

>>24555405
Greek for the old testament, Latin for the new.

>>24556331
>not the hebrew but the greek translation
>not the greek but the latin translation
I like your style

>>24556337
The Septuagint is the first OT and Latin was proven as the base language for the NT in Jean Hardouin's time.

>>24556347
>Jean Hardouin
Heard of this guy before but never got around to reading his actual arguments. Won't say you are right or wrong because this line of inquiry is fascinating and unevaluated by me. Cheers.

should I learn Old Irish and Welsh
they just look neat.

>>24554945
I don't, I just pronounce ancient Greek in modern Greek pronunciation, because I'm bad at imitating a phonology that I can't hear fluent/native speech in in a way that feels at all natural.

>>24556324
>That's not at all true. Chinese has "ao" making the Latin au for example.
That's not what they mean. They mean that each syllable- whether its vowel be a monophthong or a diphthong- is assigned a tone independently, rather than it being a thing that happens on a word level. (Well, that's not completely true for Mandarin, but it's a decent approximation.)

>>24556337
>>24556357
Don't respond to the troll.

>>24541931
Pindar is infamously difficult and obscure, people pretending to have read him on here is just a meme

>>24556632
Is there much in the way of resources for them that don't assume you already know the modern language? I know that's how it is for e.g. Old and Middle Japanese.

>>24553002
>>24553010
>>24553015
>>24553023
Thank you for your answer! I guess Xenophon's Anabasis would be a good first book? Then I'll start reading it after finishing a reader.

>I think a core vocabulary ... is necessary to begin working well with a dictionary
What do you mean? Do you want to say that learning words gets easier? Because I actually find it hard to learn 6 (usually very similar, but somewhat different) principal parts.

>>24553745
>you could maybe try your luck with an easy reader first and see how you feel
Yeah, ofc I'll try going through a reader before starting reading authentic books. I want to try the JACT's "reading greek".

>>24556736
I dunno, there seems to be some stuff recommended on reddit. but anyway seems that Middle Irish and Middle Welsh have all the interesting material, there's barely anything in Old Irish or Old Welsh.
Middle Welsh seems relatively closer to modern literary Welsh, but Middle Irish seems closer to Old Irish, and the resources sometimes teach them together

just started latin :)

>>24556932
I hope you are beginning by memorizing thirty chapters of De Bello Gallico.

>>24557352
imagine the upgrade

>>24556773
there is no such thing as old or middle irish. irish "authors" and "scribes" before the invention of irish in 1892 wrote idiosyncratic semi-random series of letters as a sort of divination ritual. 19th century editors took these oracular manuscript texts, manipulated them into something they could attribute meaning to, and normalized them into either old or middle irish orthographic and grammatical conventions as an arbitrary editorial decision.
seriously though old and middle welsh seem cool, respect.

Someone I know who can barely say weeny weedy weeky who owns a roman larper's helmet called me a larper for knowing Latin as a (actual, practicing) Catholic and using the "incorrect pronunciation," and that I "should use the pronunciation from when Rome was victorious."

Is it over? Do I kill myself?

>>24541305
It's really not, cases really just feel alien for a while but they're not really that crazy. Pedagogy is horrendous though, everyone overteaches them.

>>24557545
Nah, traditional pronunciations of Latin are a valid variation.

I've realised that I don't think I'll get much out of studying Latin and Ancient Greek and I've decided to learn Russian and German instead
It saddens me that I'll be forever locked out of that literary canon, I've read most of the major Ancient Greek works in translation but obviously it's not the same as actually reading it in the original language but I just find myself feeling more invested and satisfied with a living language
Just a blog post, not sure what your thoughts on this kind of thinking are
How do you feel learning a dead vs living language differ? Learning a dead language kind of feels claustrophobic to me

>>24556324
>that's not at all true. Chinese has "ao" making the Latin au for example
This is just a diphtong like ai ou ou, it doesn't have anything to do with what I said. Chinese is tonal because each syllable can receive an independent tone, so Chinese is tonal because “bō” and “bó” are too distinct morphological units. Greek is a pitch accent language in which only syllable in a word is more prominent than the others.

>>24556728
I wrote my dissertation on Pindar, sir!

>>24556743
You're welcome. I mean that you need at least a working vocabulary to begin with, otherwise you will pause every few words and it's hard to progress. That's why I recommend a textbook first so you can learn vocabulary through designed exercises and sentences. I assume that ‘principal parts’ refer to the verb? You can stick first to present, future, and aorist, active and middle, then to perfect, then to future and aorist passive, and then the rest, which is less commonplace. Try to regularly learn the second aorist of irregular verbs (εἶπον for λέγω for example). There are lists everywhere.

>>24557661
Here is a translation into British English, aiming for clarity and scholarly register:

---

That is true of Greek, in my view, it is difficult to make much use of it outside reading the authors. And even then, with a standard curriculum, one is likely to read Attic prose, a few plays, and some authors from the Hellenistic or Roman periods, but Aeschylus, Hesiod, Homer, the lyric poets and Greek poetry in general are quite another matter, inaccessible even to some comfortable with Ancient Greek. Latin, by contrast, is easier to learn and has enjoyed greater continuity over time, it remained in use for a very long time with only minor variations (see the introduction by Alison Goddard Elliott in K. P. Harrington, “Medieval Latin”, Chicago, 1997, 1–51, for a concise overview), and it still functions as a liturgical language. As a result, you can find Latin-speaking communities onlinem until recently, Latin poetry was still regularly composed—Leo XIII and Rimbaud left outstanding examples—and it is still doable to compose well in the language, which is flexible and pleasant to use. If I had to choose, Latin could serve as a very solid foundation for engaging with European letters.

bump

>>24556337
>>24556331
But Erasmus told me the Vulgate was utterly terrible Latin.
Alas, I will learn Latin anyway.

>>24557936
They're a schizo conspiracy theorist who thinks the Septuagint is the original of the OT and the Vulgate is the original of the NT.

>>24557545
You should have responded back to him in Latin, and when looked confused, you should have asked him "who was the larper then?"

>>24557661
Nihil nisi istud vocabulum
> instead
te impedit. Quin discis linguas et mortuas et vivas?

>>24540407 (OP)
>is Ascanius, ubicumque et quācumque
mātre genitus—certē nātum Aenēā cōnstat—abundante Lāvīniī multitūdine flōrentem iam ut tum rēs erant atque opulentam urbem mātrī seu novercae relinquit, novam ipse aliam sub Albānō monte condidit quae ab sitū porrēctae in dorsō urbis Longa Alba appellāta.
What does Livy mean to say by "porrectae urbis" here?

>>24558069
I think he just means elongated in shape, "porrectae in dorso" being predicative of urbis, so 'took the name from the position of the city, which was stretched out/long'; I do wonder what exactly he meant by using dorsum in this "urbanistic" context though

>>24558069
>>24558084
I think it's the dorsum montis Albani, i.e. the ridge of the mountain?

>>24558092
yeah I guess that makes sense too, maybe implicitly the "dorsum" of a city, the back, is the underlying terrain, in this case the shape of the mountain it stands on

>>24558084
I see, that makes sense. Thanks anon!

>>24558113
I think the dorsum can only be of a mountain, not of a city (at least it's that way in German, which is why the sentence feels intuitive to me). The mountain is mentioned earlier in the sentence, but there's no grammatical connection, it's all implicit.

The genitive urbis next to dorso goes with the situ, the position of the city.

Here, trying to reorder the words for clarity:
ipse sub Albano monte condidit aliam novam quae appellata Longa Alba ab situ urbis porrectae in dorso

How much Mandarin do you have to learn before you can learn Classical Chinese?

>>24558238
is this ellie's sister

>>24558238
None. Start with whichever.

>>24557661
Good for you, do what you want. No one is forcing you to do anything.

>>24557661
A halfway step that might relieve this pressure is just dropping Greek and taking Latin casually. I found a lot of satisfaction just gradually working through LLPSI over a long period and doing my best to read parallel translations, starting with easier medieval works and the bible. But some people will jump down your throat if you just want to be comfortable reading at an intermediate level and capable of reading Keekero with effort rather than being able to provide a detailed formal grammatical breakdown of Keekero’s sentences.

But yeah you can’t force yourself to learn a language, so don’t.

>>24558238
None in theory but diving right in without any knowledge is a bitch, you'll probably want B2/C1 in Mandarin/Japanese first

>>24557522
what's your source for this?

>>24557661
the endgame is learning Ancient Greek, Latin, French, and German. you need to be Euromaxxing

>>24557936
>a Dutchman 1000 years removed from spoken Latin criticizing the work of a native Latin speaker and linguist

Renaissance Humanists were the most prideful batch of pre-enlightenment redditors to ever commit their words to paper.

>>24555405
Latin is the easiest, has the biggest payoff, and introduces you to inflected languages in general, making Greek easier later on, so start with that I guess.

All 3 were on the cross so from a spiritual perspective all 3 are equal. Plus the Vulgate is technically the first complete compilation of the entire biblical canon in one text, and Jerome had access to lost original old testament Hebrew manuscripts (modern translations from Hebrew use the Masoeretic text, a medieval text that has proven to be edited by a reclusive group of medieval jews to subtly reduce the OTs foreshadowing of Jesus).

So if you care about accessing “the original Hebrew” you’ll actually get the closest to that by just learning Latin, not to downplay or diminish the spiritual value of Koine Greek or the Septuagint/oldest NT manuscripts at all.

I have a question about scansion of Illiad I.3.

πολλὰς δ᾽ ἰφθίμους ψυχάς Ἄιδι προΐαψεν

It seems that the end of the verse has to be scanned like this.

...-δι προ-ί | -αψ-εν

So δι is long. But I'm interpreting Ἄιδι as a 3rd declension dative singular, which has a short ι. Where is my mistake? Do I have the form wrong? Is the vowel lengthened for some reason? Is there a rule of scansion I'm missing that makes it a heavy syllable even though it has a short vowel?

Another question about Ἄιδι. Is it more correct to interpret the Ἄι as a long or two shorts? Pharr notes the form Ἄϝιδι in the commentary.

>>24558597
correptio Attica I think is the name, διπ-ρο-ι-απ-σεν, long-short-short-long-long
in Homer πρ or other mute + liquid don't always count together
albeit you can also expect metric lengthening in many verses all over the poems of what ought to be short vowels by their nature

>question about Ἄιδι
indeed the accent and breathing there it's giving a hint that you don't have a diphthong Αἰ but rather separate vowels where a consonant disappeared, also explains the name of Ades as a(privative)-vides, unseen

>>24558519
>Plus the Vulgate is technically the first complete compilation of the entire biblical canon in one text, and Jerome had access to lost original old testament Hebrew manuscripts (modern translations from Hebrew use the Masoeretic text, a medieval text that has proven to be edited by a reclusive group of medieval jews to subtly reduce the OTs foreshadowing of Jesus
That’s insane, never knew that. Where can I read about it more?

>>24558505
>Vulgate Bible
>Native speaker
keked

>>24558679
Thanks. I can deal with "it's long just because" as a possible explanation as long as I'm not missing anything basic like I have the case wrong.

My bitch wife told me "factum sed non disputandum"
Non disputandum esset si modo semel factum!

>>24558458
>ancient Greek
>european
moderns(euros) sorely underestimate how far removed we are from the ancients

Hey guys I wrote this poem about my wife
"Uncias" should be read as two long syllables
Quippe ubi semper dicet uncias nolle duas me,
Cur igitur novem illius illa favet?

>>24559001
didn't the concept of Europe (as opposed to Asia and Africa) originate with the Greeks?

Refreshing my totally-forgotten greek by working through Hansen&Quinn. Memorizing paradigms is pretty comfy I'm ngl.

Here's a poem about my bitch filipino wife who doesn't understand my love for the classics
Linguam non favet illa iam latinam,
Linguam id est nisi strenuam latini

>>24559178
indeed it's meditative practice

>>24558786
>there hasn’t been a native speaker of English in 350 years because they don’t speak with the precise accent and write with the precise style of Shakespeare.

>>24558786
so modern burgers arent native english speakers?

>>24559269
ayyye
>>24559277
checking my own dubs

>>24559178
As a side note, where can I find an answer key for this?

>>24558238
The same as the amount of Italian you have to learn before you can learn Latin, or the amount of modern Greek you have to learn before you can learn Ancient Greek.

>>24559077
don't get it
>>24559236
I think I get it

Here's a poem about last night
Magni nigri verpam magnam gaudet acoetis
Et plorante penem in manibus teneo

>>24558519
>modern translations from Hebrew use the Masoeretic text, a medieval text that has proven to be edited by a reclusive group of medieval jews to subtly reduce the OTs foreshadowing of Jesus
How do you tell the difference between "the Jews edited the Masoretic text to reduce foreshadowing of Jesus" and "the Christians mistranslated the Hebrew to make it seem more foreshadowy of Jesus"? (And for that matter, how do you tell the difference between "this was a prophecy foreshadowing Jesus" and "this was a prophecy which the early Christians, knowing about it, misremembered Jesus as fitting to make him seem more plausible as the Messiah"? For example, Mark, generally considered the earliest Gospel, makes no mention of the virgin birth (which originates from a mistranslation in the first place, but that's besides the point), which seems like a pretty big omission if he was in fact born in such an extraordinary manner.)

Here's another poem about my bitch filipina wife. I should send her back.
Membro tantum porto caseum in exiguo iam
Flet vomitatque uxor nasum ipsa tenens

>>24559142
>In the 8th century, ecclesiastical uses of "Europa" for the imperium of Charlemagne provide the source for the modern geographical term.
It is an interesting how the ancients identified the world vs our way

>>24559337
Mutt’s law /clg/ edition

>>24559556
How do you know I'm an amerimutt? I renounced my citizenship for tax purposes. I live in Chiang Mai with my bitch filipina wife now

>>24559593
Disgrace the Latin language one more time and you'll be crucified upon the cross of discord mod soi, profane

>>24559337
LEX MVTTIA DE AMERICANIS SEPTENTRIONALIBVS

>>24559606
Luge eo magis europae effundeque a/maras
Chang Ping et Mahomet in gremiis lacrimas

>>24559625
I'm just talking about my life. You can go stuff it

>>24558772
Idk dude just google this shit mang fr fr bussin

>>24559331
So zero

>>24559349
It’s complicated, and my readings on the subject were a long time ago, but I believe these issues were actually disputed among Christians since Luther used Hebrew for his translation and excluded those books for which no Hebrew version existed in the previously Greek OT-based canon. From what I recall the dispute was finally settled because the dead sea scrolls agreed more with the wording of the Septuagint (Greek OT) and Vulgate and predated Jesus.

For example, anti-Marian protestants would cite that a verse prophesying the messiah (isaiah 55-ish?) would be born of a “virgin” according to the Septuagint and the Hebrew-based Vulgate (linking to Jesus and Mary); but in the Masoeretic Hebrew it said he would be born of a “young woman” (weakening Jesus’s claim). There’s other similar examples.

AFAIK the Masoeretic/Septuagint split is the single biggest cause of differences between Catholic and Protestant bibles, besides outright editing like Luther famously adding the word “alone” to a verse so he could cite his own translation. Since the disputes have largely been ironed out over centuries of biblical scholarship and archaeology, that’s why many Catholic and Protestant publishers put out identical New Revised Standard Version translations now (with the Catholic ones simply listing the Deuterocanon [books unique to the Greek OT] within the traditional canonical order while the Protestant NSRV puts them as “apocrypha” in the back).

What I like personally is how it in large part vindicates the original Vulgate as being the prime source of biblical translations that use the original Hebrew where possible and the Greek for the rest, which again is otherwise impossible since the original Hebrew is long gone (barring fragments like the DSS).

But also, when it comes to “what bible do I read?” The Catholic perspective is pretty relaxed for laity, in that the best Bible is whichever one you will actually read. The closest thing we have to KJV onlyists are Douay-Rheims onlyists (the Vulgate-based Catholic bible made around the time as the KJV).

"Core Greek vocabulary for the first two years of Greek"

>An Ancient Greek vocabulary frequency list, clocking in at 1100 words. About 80% of any given text is made up of these (based on the Perseus database). By Wilfred E. Major from Louisiana State University.

https://www.promotelatin.org/images/stories/pdf/Greek/GREEKCore-vocabulary80pct.pdf

>>24560612
good stuff
I wonder if to someone who is starting it's better or worse to include all principal forms of a verb(if they exist) or not; back when I was making my deck following Athenaze I only started adding principal forms to the new vocabulary as I learned what they meant

>>24560884
I think it would be too overwhelming. It's better to start with the present and move as fast as possible to the aorist, which will both introduce suppletism and give the “clean” verb without any imperfect suffix. Future, perfect and the rest can come at a later date. I also recommend keeping passive future and aorist for later and learn about them at the same time.

>>24560612
I noticed that they link compound verbs to the preposition used as a preverb rather than to the root verb, this is a great idea. I had never thought of it that way, it's far more meaningful in this way.

>>24560612
Great resource, thank you

>>24559832
> From what I recall the dispute was finally settled because the dead sea scrolls agreed more with the wording of the Septuagint (Greek OT) and Vulgate and predated Jesus.
There's also the exact opposite claim going around:
> This was a significant discovery for Old Testament scholars who anticipated that the Dead Sea Scrolls would either affirm or repudiate the reliability of textual transmission from the original texts to the oldest Masoretic texts at hand. The discovery demonstrated the unusual accuracy of transmission over a thousand-year period, rendering it reasonable to believe that current Old Testament texts are reliable copies of the original works.
To be fair, similarity of texts is quite subjective if you don't have an exact match.

> For example, anti-Marian protestants would cite that a verse prophesying the messiah (isaiah 55-ish?) would be born of a “virgin” according to the Septuagint and the Hebrew-based Vulgate (linking to Jesus and Mary); but in the Masoeretic Hebrew it said he would be born of a “young woman” (weakening Jesus’s claim). There’s other similar examples.
But it's almah "young woman" in the DSS as well! The controversy is about how to translate that word, but as concrete example for meddling with the text, it was a slam dunk for the Masoretes. Which is why some people in this cesspool have now retreated to claiming that the DSS are fake.

>>24560931
>>24560884
>>24560612
you should already know this by age 16;
it is over,
give up

>>24560612
do you have more lists that continues from this one into rarer words?

>>24560946
You can do that directly using Perseus
https://vocab.perseus.org/lemma/?o=-3

>>24560931
No problem :)

>>24559832
>From what I recall the dispute was finally settled because the dead sea scrolls agreed more with the wording of the Septuagint (Greek OT) and Vulgate and predated Jesus.
>For example, anti-Marian protestants would cite that a verse prophesying the messiah (isaiah 55-ish?) would be born of a “virgin” according to the Septuagint and the Hebrew-based Vulgate (linking to Jesus and Mary); but in the Masoeretic Hebrew it said he would be born of a “young woman” (weakening Jesus’s claim). There’s other similar examples.
Don't the DSS confirm in the Isaiah scroll that the word is almah? That doesn't sound like a change more than a dispute over the connotations of the word.

>>24561308
Kek already covered by >>24560932

>>24555405
Hebrew? lmao

>>24555586
Latin is more important than Hebrew.

>>24561326
wouldn't a prot autocombust, given the association of latin with the catholic church

>>24561371
All the crucial Christian scholarship even from Reformation is in Latin

>>24558505
>1000 years removed from spoken Latin
he spoke latin himself, as did all people at universities

>>24562273
He learned it in school, which isn't exactly what that user was referring to.

>>24560612
The only thing that annoys me about this list is that it doesn't list all of the principal parts for the verbs. That's always a severe deficiency in a vocab list, since in order to actually use it, you need a dictionary anyways and just find the other parts yourself.

>>24562517
Yes, when learning Classics nothing is more frustrating than having to touch a dictionary

>>24557940
This is true though. You're just an ethnic supremacist who thinks judah and israel were ancient superpowers during the Bronze age Collapse lol

>>24562527
Dictionaries are important, but the whole point of memorizing is to avoid the dictionary except in cases where you really need it. I remember spending two hours before each of my Homer classes just writing down the vocab. In hindsight maybe I should have just used Perseus and clicked on all the words I didn't know (a bad habit, since forcing yourself to the dictionary encourages memorization)

>>24552451
I don’t really know any Greek, so take this with a grain of salt, but the advice I got when I asked a similar question is that you basically can do either Koine-first or Attic-first, with the main tradeoff being that since Koine is simpler than Attic, you may learn to understand koine quicker, but will struggle more with Attic long term, whereas if you do Attic first, you may be studying a more complex dialect, but Koine will be easy long term.

>>24561308
Well, I know neither Greek nor Hebrew, so it’s a little beyond me. I guess it sounds like the dispute is whether the word is most properly translated as “maiden” (i.e. young woman, but specifically with virginity).

>>24560932
Thanks for the info. I don’t feel personally super strongly since I’ve never been a bible autist. I just think the Vulgate is the coolest more than anything, and in terms of European history, it’s basically the foundation of European civilization (at least far more than any other single text). I also just think Latin is the coolest, and opens up a lot more. But Greek is great too. Learning Hebrew is proper bible-autism though.
>inb4 some gay semantic sperging about the meanings of the words “european” “civilization” or “foundation”

why aren't you reading Winnie the Pooh in Ancient Greek, anon?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_literature_translated_into_dead_languages

>>24557731
>Greek is a pitch accent language in which only syllable in a word is more prominent than the others.
What's the primary evidence say? Is this based on stresses changing?

>>24561308
>Don't the DSS confirm
Oh boy...

>>24563003
>The new findings don't cast doubt on the 100,000 real Dead Sea Scroll fragments...

>>24559832
>So zero
Yes, that's my point.

>>24562939
Surprised none are listed for Classical Chinese, as I'm quite sure there have been at least a few.

>>24562991
What do you want, exactly? Evidence that it is a pitch accent? Any source would require secondary literature to be interpreted, since the notion we're discussing had no currency back then—even though the word τόνος is suggestive in nature.

>>24558597
π from the next word goes with δι here making the syllable long, this happens often with Homer and there's nothing weird about it. Sometimes meter will just force itself to the words but in this case not so much.

>>24563590
i thought it was only because there are two consonants that it's considered a closed syllable, and with just the pi and not the rho immediately following it would be an open syllable?

>>24563724
This is not a rule. I agree it should be the case here—resistance is more common with voiced plosives, and internal to a word—but it's not impossible.

>>24555801
>>24554945
You do realize that different pitch accent languages have pitch different patterns, and with varying exact tonal heights even within a single language, and cannot just be copy-pasted around, right? Learning the pitch accent of, say, Serbian as a gateway to pitch accent in Japanese is retarded. Just learn the target language's pitch directly ffs. If Ancient Greek has any accounts or reconstructions to go by, learn those.

>>24563993
The problem is that we have no auditory access to Ancient Greek as it was spoken. When it comes to dead languages and their features, finding close approximations in living languages is the second best thing, so there is really no reason not to listen to some Serbian or Japanese to at least get a general idea of what tonal or vowel length differences mean in Classical languages.

Classical Arabic is very beautiful and worthy of study, especially as a Muslim. There are seven official Ahruf, styles of reading/reciting the Koran, which can even subtly change the meaning of verses.

This means that the Koran is linguistically seven sided, loke a heptahedron, with each Ahruf giving the verses a subtly different meaning while the overall message is preserved.

Reciting the Koran is a practiced art in itself. Here is a video I made reciting Surah Al Fatiha with subtitles for educational purposes.

https://files.catbox.moe/tw9v4z.webm

>>24564018
Vowel length is just a phonemic boolean (either it's long or it's not), so obviously, but pitch patterns in pitch accent languages are quite different. Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying here, but I wouldn't internalize the way it works in one language in order to apply it to another.

bro how is it possible that literally all the texts written in linear b are just like, lists? literally no narrative or poetic texts? wtf?

>>24564254
Most linear B has been found on clay tablets that cooked when the inventories they were held in burned, so we can assume that literary material, if it existed, was held elsewhere and got lost.

nice channel for Ancient Greek pronunciation. it highlights the text on screen as he speaks
https://www.youtube.com/@Podium-arts/videos

>>24564269
This. A lot of stuff survives by accident. A lot of Aristotle for example depends on where the scribes hid it, so Theophrastus is assumed to be inserting a lot of himself into the surviving corpus because we basically only have half of Aristotle because some one of Theophrastus' students left his copybook in a basement where it failed to rot
There's also generally going to be a lot of boring tax stuff in any surviving corpus because people who like accounts like duplicates even if it means carving two stones

>>24564254
>Half the early corpus of Irish is margin notes complaining how annoying it is to write Latin manuscripts, how their cousin has a better job doing cooler manuscripts, explaining what kind of ghost or witch the Christians think the story is about, and talking about how they hate all the other bros and the cat is the only one who should live through the next natural disaster

>>24564254
There is the Phaistos Disk, which seems to have something more than an account entry. But, alas, it is yet to be deciphered.

>>24564641
>God healpe minum handum

>>24564929
Is that an actual quote?

>>24565059
yeah
a monk's footnote as he copied a manuscript

where can I find the 'standard' critical editions of early Christian Latin texts such as Augustine along the lines of OCT?

Why does Perseus break constantly? Is it just me

>>24565399
There's the Cambridge Patristic Texts series but it's not a definitive series to get the best edition available. OCT isn't either though.

>>24565651
spaghetti code from 2010. they are undergoing an updated rehaul thoever: https://scaife.perseus.org/

>>24565657
Reminds me of the state of security at ctext.

>>24565657
that new site is even slower than Perseus and named after some rich asshole

I read this book Septimus today. It's about a modern British school boy who is magically transported from a museum back to the ancient Roman Empire. He is imprisoned for calling Nero fat, and as a punishment is sent to the underworld to complete seven labors, in which he learns much about ancient Rome and about himself. Now, I think the concept of being magically transported to a fantastic realm naturally invites comparisons with Harry Potter, and it can be safely recommended to all fans of the boy wizard.

https://archive.org/details/septimus-a-first-latin-reader

>>24565657
This version is probably better than the standard, purely since I can't middle click to look up the vocab. Not having to put work into looking up a word is dangerous.

Does reading Aristotle in Greek yield much better understanding?

>>24566025
Not that much. Aristotle's work is telegraphic—it's mostly notes taken down during his lessons—and since he uses a lot of words in a peculiar fashion, they are heavily discussed in English as well.

>>24564568
oh yeah Johannis Stratakis(PBUH) is a pretty good reference

>>24566603
>—
Nice AI response dude

>>24563993
I was the one who first brought up Japanese. The idea is that even if Japanese pitch accent isn't exactly the same as Ancient Greek pitch accent, it's a living example of pitch accent and there are plenty of explanations with audio to learn from. For Ancient Greek, not so much. Unless your goal is to follow a reconstruction of the pronunciation of Ancient Greek in some particular time and place (which is always a doubtful matter), and you're more concerned with having a practical solution that sounds good, then using Japanese pitch accent as a starting point is probably better than reading some rules out of a book and blindly applying them. It's like applying Italian phonology to pronouncing Latin (the ecclesiastical pronunciation), compared to the "classical" pronunciation you often hear in school, which is based one blindly applying rules like "short o is pronounced as in English 'pot.'" Same thing with what often gets called "Erasmian" pronunciation of Greek. (I'm talking about my experience from American schools. This might ring less true in other countries.) But wherever you end up with Ancient Greek pitch accent, just learning what "pitch accent" is in other languages is a helpful starting point. Learning about pitch accent in Japanese and Swedish helped me to better hear how pitch plays into English accent and intonation, which is something I was mostly blind to previously.

>>24564129
Even with vowel length, it's not so simple. You can't just turn on a metronome and speak Latin as if long syllables are quarter notes and short syllables are eighth notes. Well, you can, but the result won't be very pleasant.

>>24565969
Indeed. That would reduce the grooves in one's noggin over time. Perhaps it's best to use during light reading and not when you are in the philological gym.

can any of you even read inscriptions like this? only full words I can make out are ΑΠΟ, ΓΡΑΨΑΣΘΑΙ and ΙΚΝΩ

>>24568088
paleography is something else, some of those might even be scribal shorthands

>>24564061
I assume given the importance of the text in itself and recital they have a more robust transmission of sounds themselves as they would have been pronounced all the way back when it was first written? or is there autism around it e.g "the prophet would've pronounced it X not Y" kinda thing, etc...?

A.T. Murray is the best translator of Homer. Change my mind.

>>24569205
wrong thread buddy

>>24569248
>All Classical languages are welcome.
Homeric Greek is a classical language.

>>24569205
Why? It's a century-old translation.

>>24569588
it's a nice palate cleanser after having slopped modern burger

>>24570219
>>24570219
>>24570219

>>24569250
true. english isn't.