Helen of Troy: villain or victim?

>>24549812 (OP)
Euripides’ interpretation is strictly victim (as she didn’t actually go to Troy or like Paris in any way) while Homer has her as instigator of the war sort of turned sympathetic because she realizes how much of a doofus her husband is.

>>24549812 (OP)
Neither.

She was just the trophy in a big game of football.

A trophy has a pleasant enough life in a nice glass case. People struggle to get it. But it's neither villain nor victim.

>>24549887
>trophy

Nah, her character clearly has complex autonomy but the specifics of it merely differ quite heavily on the writer. The irl Helen was probably something metaphorical like the fertile lands surrounding Hiserlik.

>>24549812 (OP)
I'm a Helen truther
she never even got to Troy...

>>24549982
Stayed in Egypt?

>>24549812 (OP)
Villain definitely. She and Paris were the cause of the war that destroyed Troy and killed many greek heroes like Achilles, Ajax, Agamemnon, or Patroclus. Why didn't she communicate with the greeks? Why didn't she speak her mind against the troyans? It's almost as if she enjoyed living in that rich castle along chad. And only when chad died and the castle was destroyed she changed her version yo say that they were le evil.

>>24549812 (OP)
Do you want my opinion or are you asking what the Greeks thought? Because the former would depend on which version of her I'm reading and the latter would depend on the century and particular Greek.

Why did she run off with a 10/10 rich twink from a city made of gold instead of staying with her rock for brains limp wristed husband who was only respected cause he's agamemnon's bro. Clearly she's a villain

>>24550225
Both

>>24550409
The idea that mortals are ultimately at the whims of fickle deities is a through line in Hellenic myth and the notion that Helen is ultimately blameless is congruent with that. The Helen we see in the Iliad and the Odyssey seems to align with the notion that ultimately Aphrodite is to blame for our passions and that it is right for Helen to reunite with Menelaus and be queen of Sparta. The Iliad and odyssey seem to be the culmination of a literary project begun in the bronze age however and later writers seem ar least a little uncomfortable with the apparent forgiveness she receives. Euripides has Hecuba deny that the judgement of Paris happened at all, she calls the whole thing inane, says that Aphrodite is just the name people give to their own failings, and lays the blame for the war entirely at Helen's feet. Of course it makes sense in the mouth of Hecuba seeing as she's warching Troy burn and the Greeks carry off her daughters and as such might not represent Euripides's own feelings but it is also more coherent with classical era views about both the gods and appropriate behaviour for women. Later still the Romans essentially depict her as a treacherous hussy and imagine the worst of her because an indiscreetly adulterous noble wife was intolerable to them and since they traced their lineage (propagandistically anyway) to Troy having the fall of Troy be the result of human (Greek no less) more failing is better than it simply being the will of the gods. Of course the Helen in Egypt tradition is old and speaks to a desire to rehabilitate Helen's reputation by other means than simply pointing to Aphrodite and washing our hands of the matter.
I honestly think at some point early in the tradition "Aphrodite did it" was an acceptable explanation but over time people found that less satisfying and sought other takes on it.
Personally I do think it being the goddess fault is in line with the notion of Aphrodite as Pandemos, and the bronze age notion of the gods as humanlike and petty that we can see at times criticised in the classical plays such as in Hippolytus and The Bacchae. I don't think I can personally isolate an opinion on Helen because there are multiple versions of her, but I find the Helen in the Iliad compelling and consistent with the worldview depicted in the epic overall. She is collateral damage in Olympian bickering like all mortals.

>>24550219
>as if she enjoyed living in that rich castle along with chad
tbf she kind of came to despise Paris after realizing he was nothing but a fuckboy and a cowardly pussy

>>24549812 (OP)
Worse, woman

>>24549812 (OP)
>villain or victim?
hoe

>>24550496
Thanks for the effort.

>>24549812 (OP)
I read Euripides' Orestes yesterday and thought it was kind of funny that half of Apollo's explanation for why he deified Helen was effectively: "I did it so it would retroactively seem less retarded that you blokes spent 10 years fighting a war over her."
Also:

>>24549812 (OP)
she calls herself an evil bitch and a slut in the iliad

>>24551008
GOD DAMMIT

>>24549812 (OP)
Had anyone ever made a movie or series set in ancient Greece where the costumes for women all have them with one boob out? Wouldnt that be more historically accurate?

>>24550884

>>24551045
No, that was minoans, the majority of things you think of as ancient Greece were Mycenean, the indo European people that found the minoans already there when they arrived. Maybe if you made a theseus movie you'd have the cretan women with their tits out.

>>24550689
The effortposting will continue until morale improves.

Tell me other films where hot women dress up in hot harem/princess/royal gear please.

>>24551325
Surely there's some smutty black and white french haremsploitation flicks.

>>24551008
>calls herself a bitch
No she doesn’t. She says she is “dog faced”, meaning ugly

>>24551325
Aladdin

>>24549812 (OP)
Women don't exist.

>World is clearly presented as predetermined by deities with humans having no agency
>Is this woman... le bad?

>>24549812 (OP)
Who do I have to read for the story about the two twins (one mortal, the other divine) saving Helen, as well as other such myths?

>>24551008
What is this translation? It is good.
>>24551359
>meaning ugly
Helen is literally the most beautiful woman.

>>24550219
>And only when chad died
Actually when Paris died she stayed in Troy and married Paris's brother

>>24551397
The entire war story begins with Zeus finding a loop hole in a predestined prophecy

>>24551450
But even Zeus (ruler of the cosmos) is powerless to prevent what is fated, all he can do is make sure that the child in question isn't his, and even that wasn't under his own power, he needed someone else to tell him which nymphussy he couldn't give the old lightning rod (or at least later writers thought so).

>>24549812 (OP)
She's a woman.

In Greek religion, where does destiny/fate come from, if the gods are also subject to its whims?

>>24551478
The Moirai I guess. There isn't a particularly satisfying answer as far as I'm aware. The Moirai are at least responsible for human life and death. Hesiod alone provides multiple possible origins for them, one being as the daughters of Zeus and a titaness but that can't be the "canonical" (there's not really any such thing in greek mythology) explanation for all prophecy and fate because Cronus also has a prophecy he tries to avoid. Making Zeus their father is probably a later attempt to bring more of the universe under Zeus's control as greek religion slowly elevated Zeus from powerful cause of teen pregnancy to just and wise steward of creation.
I don't know if anyone ever wrote down exactly what people thought at the time, so I dunno if say something like the prophecies related to Oedipus were just facts of the universe related to mortals under the authority of apollo(s) or if they were directly from the Moirai. There's probably like 1 line in Pausanias somewhere where he offhandedly mentions something and we'd have to spin our entire understanding out of that. You gotta remember that the Orphics (oh hey they've got another explanation for where the Moirai comes from) were considered weird for writing religion down so we don't always have much to go on.

>>24551508
I'm so pissed off at the amount of pagan religions that didn't leave a big book titled "this is what we believe and practice per our religion". Almost everything about Norse paganism has been completely forgotten.
Then again, given that modern Christianity is pretty detached from the bible, I guess it wouldn't even help that much.

rage op! The song of incels.

>>24551517
Ever tried researching the Eluesinian Mysteries? It seems like basically every single Athenian was initiated. People traveled from all over the Mediterranean world to be initiated. They were in operation for hundreds of years. Men and women, Roman emperors and slaves, everyone was initiated.
Everything that can concretely be said about the mysteries probably fits in to a single paragraph, and it was only one of dozens of mystery religions.
Like grasping mist.

>>24551413
She’s calling herself ugly

>>24551537
>Eluesinian Mysteries
Any good book?
I have "The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries - R. Gordon Wasson, Albert Hofmann, Carl A.P. Ruck" on my reading list but I'm not sure it's a good introduction. It is around 200 pages long and focuses on the use of drugs in the rituals.

>>24550219
She did aid Odysseus when he infiltrated Troy.

>>24549982
Was Herodotus the first conspiracy theorist?

>>24551836
I don’t think he believed it and was only reporting what others say

>>24551836
I haven't gotten to Herodotus but it is Euripides' play Helen which is more known for pushing the Helen was in Egypt/ it was a ploy by the gods to curb the excess population idea.

>>24551945
Oh, really? He's the only Ancient Greek tragedian I haven't read, I need to fix that

>>24551959

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_(play)

It's really interesting because at some parts the gods' plan sounds like proto-Malthusianism.

>>24551959


Yes, there are arguments that Euripides' play Helen prefigures certain aspects of Malthusianism, particularly regarding themes of population control and the potentially devastating consequences of unchecked human numbers on resources.
Here's how this connection can be drawn:
Divine Intervention for Population Control: In Euripides' Helen, a key plot point involves the gods, particularly Zeus, orchestrating the Trojan War to reduce the human population, as the Earth was becoming overpopulated.
One interpretation suggests that the war, prompted by the abduction of a phantom Helen, serves as a divine mechanism to "lighten mother earth of her crowded mass of mortals," according to The Center for Hellenic Studies.
Malthusian Echoes: This aligns with elements of Thomas Malthus's theory, which argued that population grows geometrically while the food supply grows arithmetically, leading to "positive checks" like famine, disease, and war to reduce population and restore balance.
It's important to note:
Not a Direct Argument: Euripides isn't explicitly advocating for a theory of population control in the same way Malthus did centuries later. Rather, the play suggests a divine intervention that happens to have a similar outcome to the "positive checks" Malthus identified.
Wider Context: The play also explores themes of appearance versus reality, the intelligence and moral character of women, and the folly of war, according to SuperSummary. The population control aspect is one element within this larger tapestry of ideas.
Therefore, while Euripides' Helen isn't a direct articulation of Malthusianism, the play's depiction of a divinely orchestrated war to reduce human population can be seen as foreshadowing or presenting themes later explored by Malthus regarding the relationship between population and resources.

Did Zeus acquiesce to Thetis' request because it would result in more death?

I was surprised that Margret Atwood depicted Helen so badly in The Penelopiad. You’d think of all authors she would be sympathetic

>>24550884
>>24551056
>>24551945
>>24551959
>>24551968
>I was surprised that Margret Atwood depicted Helen so badly in The Penelopiad. You’d think of all authors she would be sympathetic
I really don't get why Euripides, as far as I can gather, rewrote her almost as a Penelope-figure, symbol of uxorial fidelity.
Why?

>>24552835
Look at Euripides’ other depictions of women such as in Medea and Electra. Typically, he is far more ‘feminist’ I’d say than men of his time tended to be. He also takes apart famous myths and deities such as in Bacchus. His women are far more cunning as his gods are careless and cruel.

Euripides has a certain theme to him.

>>24552835
He also wrote Trojan Women, where everyone calls Helen a whore and Menelaus declares he is planning on killing her. The plays were entertainment and intended to be seen as part of set, you can't read one in isolation and assume it is Euripides's actual view on something.

>>24552840
>Typically, he is far more ‘feminist’ I’d say than men of his time tended to be
By modern standards, sure. Aristophanes has women come on stage and accuse Euripides of being a misogynist.

>>24549812 (OP)
Ancient OnlyFans influencer type girl.

>>24553458
Yes, I am aware of that play as well. I assume it is mostly centered around his Medea which is a nuanced character/ play though definitely doesn’t make women look the best.

>>24553458
Also it should be noted that Aristophanes himself had some sort of personal grudge against the guy. Fat too much of his oeuvre is devoted to insulting Euripides.

>>24551056
Mycenaeans were majority neolithic farmer/Pelasgian, and most mycenaean high culture is a direct copy paste from Minoans. Greek speakers were logkas type people's who plot closest to northern Greeks and central Italians. Those proto Greeks mixed and had ethnogenesis very early on in Greece, which made the Mycenaeans. Linear B is directly derived from Minoan linear A. Mycenaean frescoes, art, bronze smithing, even boar tusk helmets are copy pasted from the Minoans. Uniquely Mycenaean art is very primitive and pretty much boils down to tholos tombs, bee hive tombs, and chariot riding.

>>24550311
Menelaus was a formidable warrior in a warrior culture. He isn't weak or unremarkable at all.

>>24553754
He is a dilettante who likely only saw the Brad Pitt movie which depicts Menelaus as an obese middle age retard who gets killed by Hector.

>>24552840
>Look at Euripides’ other depictions of women such as in Medea
Fair enough. I'd pay to see the athenian reaction to it.

>>24553788
Medea was probably also intended to be seen as social commentary on Athens.

Helen
>gets raped and kidnapped by Thesus when she is pre-pubescent girl
>gets married
>husband is constantly cheating on you despite his only claim to the Spartan throne is being married to you
>have to host a bunch of foreigners while your husband is away having an affair
>fuckboy Paris demands you leave with him
>don't really want to
>Aphrodite forces you to using her god powers
>Paris dies
>get forced to marry Paris brother
>Paris brother dies
>greeks return
>some versions have people taking revenge on Helen despite her having no say over being taken to Troy or staying in Troy

>>24551413
it's Lattimores translation. im liking it a lot. I've also read Fagles translation.

>>24553820
Yes, it is- not Medea herself but the other women who exclude her on grounds of Xenophobia, her being a foreigner and raised in wicked magic.

>>24551359
Emily Wilson translation?

>>24554801
Pericles's citizenship laws 20 years earlier had made it so that children of foreign born women couldn't become citizens, prior to which foreign brides had been a bit of a fad. Of course, when you wake up one day to find your heirs now unable to inherit your position you are going to need a new wife, but given that athenian girls married at 14 how many citizens would have married their daughters in to houses with an older foreign woman with illegitimate children and an axe to grind? Medea waking up one day to find herself reduced from noble wife to concubine and her sons downgraded from heirs to bastards was an experience people in the crowd watching would have had happen in their own homes.

>>24549812 (OP)
Tranny

>>24549812 (OP)
villctim

>>24549812 (OP)
Neither

>>24552835
>Why
Sparta worshipped her as a goddess of their city. Made worshipping her more palatable