I admittedly am somewhat ignorant of ancient Greek culture and history. Would Herodotus' Histories be a good start for a novice who wants to expand his understanding of ancient Greece?

>>24560906 (OP)
Probably not, because it incorporates a good deal of myth, hearsay and outright nonsense. But this is part of the charm, so you should read it anyway.
In its own way it's a fascinating book: it's the point where history begins to emerge from the fog of myth.

>>24560914
Terrible take. He tells you his confidence levels in the reports. No one has more singularly been vindicated than Herodotus.

>>24560977
He uncritically reports that the air in Scythia is full of feathers, and that there are griffins in the east guarding hoards of gold.

>>24560914
When there's a paucity of sources recording everything is the best approach, because if it's recorded it can be evaluated later and there's historical value in just knowing something was believed. The far more frustrating thing is when Thucydides explicitly says he's declining to record something he heard because he doesn't believe it, because now that information is lost forever even if it was wrong.

>>24560906 (OP)
It's too long

>>24561011
And how do you know he was wrong?

>>24561020
My copy is split into two volumes. It's a Heritage Press edition that I inherited from my grandmother's library.

>>24561011
>As to the feathers of which the Scythians say that the air is full, and that by reason of them they are not able either to see or to pass through the further parts of the continent, the opinion which I have is this:—in the parts beyond this land it snows continually, though less in summer than in winter, as might be supposed. Now whomsoever has seen close at hand snow falling thickly, knows what I mean without further explanation, for the snow is like feathers: and on account of this wintry weather, being such as I have said, the Northern parts of this continent are uninhabitable. I think therefore that by the feathers the Scythians and those who dwell near them mean symbolically the snow. This then which has been said goes to the furthest extent of the accounts given.
Lying pseud, this is the opposite of uncritical.

>>24561011
Here, I'll help you enhance your reading comprehension:
>but it is said to be carried off from the griffins

When he says "it is said..." he's telling you that it's hearsay.

>>24561052
To be fair, you have to have a low-mid IQ to understand Herodotus.

herodotus is the most fun i've had with a history book

>>24561079
Me too man. I'm getting excited thinking about it. Which parts stuck out to you?

>>24560906 (OP)
The best book on ancient Greek culture is Werner Jaeger's Paideia.

>>24561120
Never heard of it.

>>24561079
Same. I experienced levels of comfy I did not think possible. Herodotus' love of humanity is palpable and the book feels like sitting around a campfire listening to stories from someone who has spent their whole life traveling the world collecting interesting tales.

>>24560906 (OP)
Most of the book is about areas outside of Greece, so aside from his narration about the Persian War, you won't get much of a sense of the life and culture of Greece at the time (given that his audience was Greeks and they would have already known this). I would still highly recommend the book as a reflection on the Greeks' views of their neighbors and a narration of a hugely important period in their history (their victory over the Persians led to the Greek golden age and the rise of classical Athens), but if you're looking for a general history of Greece, you'd do better with a modern history survey.

>>24560906 (OP)
You'd be better off starting with a general survey rather than Herodotus. I started off with Herodotus and didn't like him all that much, although I read Thucydides right after and thought he was absolutely excellent.

>>24561352
Thanks for your advice anon, I'll consider some modern historical works for starters, but I'll keep The Histories on the back burner for the moment being.
>>24561359
I read an excerpt from Thucydides recently on the Spartans from his larger account, History of the Peloponnesian War. But yes, I'll consider some more modern historical surveys of ancient Greece.

>>24561123
If you had already heard of it you wouldn't need recommendations.

>>24560906 (OP)
I'd start with Thucydides

>>24561401
Athens had it coming after what they did to Melos

>>24562180
I will start with a basic historical survey, but I do want to explore Thucydides and Xenophon as well.

>>24561420
I'm not op you mouth breathing retard. That was your che to unfyck yourself and start explaining.

Fucking hell I swear the IQ of this board is dropping by the day.

Go for Plutarch's Lives, Homer's Iliad, and, of course, any compilation of Aeschylus, Sophocles & Euripedes that looks alright.

Plutarchs Lives is a good general survey of Greek History, and he tells you which Greek authors wrote about whom. Bonus points!!: you get the same treatment for Ancient Rome. For mythology I would jump straight into Homer, I would also read the Odyssey if you really like the Iliad but if not you can put it on the backburner, after The Iliad I would go for Aeschylus's Agamemnon, and Sophocles' Ajax. After you read Plutarch you could go for the Oedipus plays, Thucydides, Herodotus. Xenophon and Herodotus are easy reads!! You don't need any background to pick up Xenophon, Herodotus, or Plutarch because they are mad easy!! Hope this helps.

I am currently reading The Histories as well right now. I am currently in the process of working through the Greeks (having only read The Iliad and The Odyssey) and have been thoroughly enjoying the process. I got the Landmark edition of The Histories (picrel) and went full autist and read all of the appendices before starting the core text (using ChatGPT to clarify some areas of confusion). Having a solid context for reading the core text, plus the notes and maps has been huge.

So far this is my favorite quote (in Book 2):
>"When Psammetichos found out about this (the garrisons leaving Egypt for Ethiopia), he pursued them, and when he caught up with them, he begged them at length not to abandon their ancestral gods, and then he implored them not to leave their women and children.
>It is reported, however, that one of them (one of the deserters) exposed himself and, pointing to his genitals, said that wherever these were, they would not lack for wives and children."

Makes for a pretty funny ancient "fuck you".

Tl;Dr Herodotus is fun if you just focus on just absorbing the work naturally and not worrying about historical accuracy.

>>24562617
>not worrying about historical accuracy
No one is more vindicated than Herodotus. He talked about monuments that were thought for two thousand years. He talked about flying snakes (gliding snakes) which even 20th century stooges tried to say don't exist (they're called Chrysopelea). He even brought up the ant-marmot language problem from Persian.

The quickest way to find out if someone has low reading comprehension and/or generally unacquainted with world affairs is to hear them lamabast the greatest historian of all time.

>>24562642
I'm not denying he didn't get a lot right, he did.

But The Histories is full of objective historical and geographical errors. It's a marvel that it's as accurate as it is, but it is not a perfectly historically accurate text by any means.

>>24562642
>hear them lamabast the greatest historian of all time.
I have never heard anybody lambast Thucydides

>>24560906 (OP)
The Portable Greek Historians might be what you are looking for.

>>24562670
>But The Histories is full of objective historical and geographical errors
Which ones did you have trouble with?

>>24561123
>>24562512
nta, i've read parts of it and it's very good and insightful, if biased. the fact that you haven't heard of something is not a sign that it needs to be explained, it's a well-known and well-regarded book.

>>24561083
Some scythians or thracians had a divination ritual where they would stack spears vertically, take a guy, rock him back and forth a little, then release him flying into the skies and falling onto the spears. The gods' answers were interpreted by the swiftness of his death.
Had to stop reading and take a break at that point, it was so bizarre and over the top.

To start with Herodotus isn't a good idea, read the Iliad first, and something on basic mythology like Hesiod or any modern review. Also get a map or use The Landmark edition.

>>24561352
>if you're looking for a general history of Greece, you'd do better with a modern history survey.
I second this.

I've read some of the greek historians. Prior to doing so I read a general history book, that focused on soarat but mentioned the other cities, covering from before the war with persia to romes conquest.

Helped give me a general idea of where the whole things was going prior to reading herodotus, thucydidies and xenophon.

I did not do the same with Rome. Just jumped into Livy and at least initially, feels like a mistake but there's no going back now I feel like

Anyway yeah general history op is a good idea (doesn't have to be a long book). You will want to read the iliad and Odyssey as well because herodotus and thucydides both talk about the Trojan war

>>24561079
Yep agreed. Still my favorite ancient historian. With some of it i get the feeling he basically went to bars and asked people about what had gone on in the past but its funny how much he got right if his method really was just asking questions.

Thucydides isn't bad but its much drier and I have yet to find anything like the histories. Is there something else like it? I've heard good things about strabo but haven't read it yet

>>24565529
>soarat
Bad typo
Sparta

>>24565529
>Iliad and Odyssey
>Herodotus and Thucydides both talk about the Trojan War
This is naturally where I'd like to gravitate next, but should I read the Histories first after a general historical survey and then the Iliad and the Odyssey? I'd imagine the Histories is a good primary account of the Trojan War, along with Thucydides' writings on the topic.

I really love greek mythology, especially its jungian interpretation. I wish there was a way to integrate it into modern literature without it coming off as either "zeus sure was a horny asshole huh xddd" pop-mythology or pretentious namedropping that comes off really gauche in modern settings.

>>24562512

>>24562245
The Melians were being entirely irrational, they had no treaty with Sparta and Sparta gave no indication they would help.

>>24566896
Its not so much they give a full account as they touch on the war.
Herodotus gives additional stories/alternate accounts relating to it, including one from Egypt. Still Homer is the standard that is deviated from

Thucydides basically argues the poets inflated it and gives a theory as to what it mightve looked like in reality. Again, Homer is the standard and alternate ideas for it presented

If you want to read things in order, read the iliad and odyssey before the histories. The /lit/ chart for the Greeks is actually a pretty good one and is correct in having you read them early on because pretty much every Greek writer references them at some point. You dont have to read Homer to understand the histories but it doesn't hurt anything.

It sounds like alot but if you really enjoy greek history/literature, and have good translations it is actually pretty good stuff. Alot of people balk at the cataloged of ships but keep in mind it was to list out who was in the war and act as callouts to the audience.

>>24567773
Thanks for this insight. By chance, do you happen to have the chart on hand?

>>24567659
Still, executing all males and enslaving all children and women is too extreme.

Then they proceed to attack Syracuse. The Athenians were deluded.