R.I.P.
(1836-2025)

it was always cringe

>Bob was tired (exhausted, really) but knew he could not rest.
Parentheses now.

>>24563537 (OP)

>>24563537 (OP)
If this was really an issue why wouldn't people just tell chatgpt to not use em dash?

>>24563559
I tried and it still used it, it‘s too hard wired into it.

>>24563559
ChatGPT is infamously bad with following instructions.

I haven't given up. But mine are becoming progressively longer —— perhaps in latter days books will contain more dash than word.

>>24563537 (OP)
>>24563546

>>24563537 (OP)
all of the models will get overcorrected within the next year to explicitly NEVER use an em dash. then em dashes will have a renaissance as proof something ISN"T AI. then the models will get re-corrected and we'll cycle again

i think it's essential for everyone to spend plenty of time interacting with chatGPT (asking it to write things, having conversations) so it becomes easy to spot.
it feels obvious to me if somethings AI, and if i entertain the notion that i'm wrong, it just means that person is such a flat, impersonal writer.

I thought the issue was that no one online types with an em dash--they just use two hyphens instead. (Am I correctly using a dash in place of a semicolon here?)

>>24563537 (OP)
So, it’s basically a comma?

>>24563559
>>24563565
it's hard coded by the developers in order to recognize the AI shit. They were aware of the dangers, and made sure it's outputs are exposed.

>>24563544
It's not the same...

>>24563537 (OP)
Em dash is kino--if you think otherwise you've been filtered

If anything — it has been revived

>>24563537 (OP)
Problem is that anglos can't fucking into punctuation and this is why they need dashes.
>exhausted, really
is a good example of their retardation

>>24563916
>>exhausted, really
>is a good example of their retardation
that's correct, though

>>24563537 (OP)
>Bob was tired – exhausted, really – but knew he could not rest.
There.

>>24563537 (OP)
There are different schools of thought. I don’t use em-dash quite like that.

We have three horizontal lines in punctuation:

hyphen -
en-dash –
em-dash —

They all have several meanings for lists and so on, but here are the main uses in “normal” prose:


HYPHEN is to link two words:

>I went into the jungle and saw a man-eating tiger.

Many /lit/ anons don’t seem to have a hyphen on their keyboards. Do primary schools not teach punctuation these days or something? Try removing the hyphen from the above example. It practically reverses the meaning.


EN-DASH is used mostly in a linked pair, to denote an interpolation:

>Bob was tired – exhausted, really – but he knew that people were still wrong on the internet and no-one was going to correct them but him.

Grammatically, whenever you can use linked en-dashes, you can use parentheses:

>Bob was tired (exhausted, really) but he knew that people were still wrong on the internet and no-one was going to correct them but him.

So what's the difference? I don't know of any strict technical thing. It’s more a matter of tone. En-dashes are more vigorous and emphasize the interpolation more. Parentheses have a tone more like “this bit is optional extra information, so you can skip it without huge harm done”.

Of course having said that, writers often use parentheses ‘ironically’; i.e. putting their big punch in parentheses and just pretending it's unimportant. For example:

>Bob felt a little sick (perhaps that fourth cheeseburger had been a mistake) but he still knew he had to fight against the tide of wrongness on the internet.


EM-DASH should be for a more substantial break which stands alone, not one of a pair. For example:

>Bob, having checked his post a tenth time, proudly pressed Enter — only to see the typo which would, he knew, be seized on gleefully by all the other anons in the thread.

You can also use an em-dash after a full stop, etc, to sort-of link two sentences in a sort-of dynamic way:

>Bob was very happy to see the typo in his opponent’s post. — A close shave; without that, he would surely have lost the argument!

Hard to describe this one really. Lots of old writers really love this and they all use it differently.


--


OK, this is how I tend to use them, but as I said, there are different schools of thought in some of the details. For example OP’s picture uses em-dashes where I would use en-dashes.

>>24563537 (OP)
>this meme appears
>concerned because I use a shit ton of dashes in my book I'm about to publish
>look again
>I've actually been using "en dashes"

The em-dash is just too useful and will never die. The fact is, English is a pain the ass to construct well-flowing narratives with, and the em-dash is versatile crutch to get around annoying rules. Who actually makes proper sentences, and yet, there still needs to be an easy-to-use way to throw in breaks which are more versatile than the semicolon and also without going through the trouble of building a new, even if improper, sentence. So, basically, just use the em-dash. There’s a reason why the AI models are trained so much on them.

just use double en dash -- or minus dash instead, double em dash---
maybe em dash + minus sign
spaces --- no spaces--- space on only right side
----there are no limits----
try something new
become the new rule

>>24563986
parentheses are footnotes within the text

>>24563986
Testing which one i can type with AltGr + -
–

>>24564049
I have a little extension on linux so

Alt Gr plus - - - (no spaces) = em-dash

AltGr plus - - . = en-dash

>>24564054
I'm also on Linux and just remembered i can use AltGr + Shift so AltGr + Shift + - is –

>>24564038
>have ChatGPT generate my novel
>Ctrl+F
>find and replace – with --
>Profit!

>>24564057
>–
Seems it actually doesn't work here but i can do it with other keys.

>>24563986
There isn't a fundamental difference in your usage between en and em dashes, whether as a pair or singly. I think most editors would reject it as inconsistent. And it is really a matter of style: British usage tends to use spaced en dashes, American unspaced em dashes (and French, for example, em dashes with a (thin) space). (Of course there are also certain specific uses for the (unspaced) en dash, like number ranges.)

>>24564070
>I think most editors would reject it as inconsistent.
Then I and the editor would meet at dawn with pistols. At the very least there's a difference in tone.

I would (almost) never use a linked pair of em-dashes. If they come in pairs, they're en-dashes for me. That's a fairly fundamental distinction, surely?

>>24563537 (OP)
—cope.

>>24563537 (OP)
Was there ever any reason to use em dash over en dash? En is just so much less obnoxious-looking.
–
—
Look at that. The em is just way too big.

>>24564070
Actually this whole issue of en-dash vs. em-dash was really forced to my attention when I was translating Dante.

D. often has quite big complicated sentences with interpolations and then sub-interpolations within those interpolations. It can get hard to keep track of when you're reading it. It helps the reader enormously if you use en-dashes for "interior" interpolations and em-dashes for the bigger, exterior ones. So that's what I did.

I would not have much patience with an editor who simply said "this isn't our in-house style". You do what's best in the circumstances.

This might be a fight I have to look forward to. (Probably not, because I doubt any traditional publishing houses will consider the thing anyway.)

>>24564101
Well look at the examples I gave here:
>>24563986
I agree that em-dashes look too big in a linked pair. But if it's a stand-alone link, or a link between two sentences, an en-dash looks inadequate. You need to make a bigger visual statement.

>>24563654
it's a psy op to make us dumber
next they are going to take away the semicolon

>>24563973
The problem is that it is correct for the anglo mind

>>24564120
this. when we can no longer speak for ourselves, we will be spoken for. chatgpt is a ritual for ruining faith in the written word of your fellow man.

>>24563645
it's the english phd's dropping soi in twitter comma

>>24564122
Uhm... okay. A comma between an adjective and an adverb like that is the only way to go about it.

>>24563574
Those are my feelings, so I will use it id I please. I'm not going to let AI dictate what I write.

>NOOOO STOP USING EM DASHES
>YOU MUST BE USING AI STOP STOP AREN'T YOU ASHAMED
>IM ASSOCIATING YOU WITH AI RIGHT NOW CANT YOU HEAR ME
>STOP RIGHT NOWWWWW
Let me think about that—yeah, no. No, I don't think I will.

>>24563537 (OP)
Don't care. Still using it.

em dash will be known for the rest of time as the punctuation mark that gives away an individual as being an Indian using AI.

>>24563540
If you don't know how to use it correctly.

>>24563986
this is all based on autistic grammar books that are irrelevant in the digital age
just cause Oxford printed your grammar book in 1890 doesn't make it permanent
(i still use Hart's Rules for publishing)

>>24564081
That's your own idiosyncratic usage and not consistent with the conventional usage, at least in English

>>24564081
as an editor
for prose:
I'm strict
I don't like spaces before and after; I very, very rarely allow endash; but mostly I editing mostly means removing hyphens left behind by writers that don't know the emdash keyboard input

for poetry:
anything goes, I'm not gonna fuck with your shit

>>24564741
how to you like to format ellipses? Do you like to use 4 dots to signify the end of a sentence? It's not very consistent in the novels I read. Pynchon uses 4 dots a lot. Gaddis does this a lot '...,' which I find slightly annoying.

>>24564774
my main gripe with ellipses is their use without spacing between the proceeding and succeeding words
Patrician:
>"I was going to say... well, it doesn't really matter now."
Plebian:
>"I was going to say...well, it doesn't really matter now."

I treat the ellipses as a full stop when used at the end of a sentence, so the fourth dot and comma are unnecessary—however—if a situation arises where this ruins the comprehensibility of the sentence, I will be forced to revise my stance

i also don't edit at all if their draft has more than 5 errors—at that point the errors are a crucial part of the piece

>>24563537 (OP)
ChatGPT loves these things, so when I see them in the wild I always wonder...

>>24563565
I'm sure there must be at least one AI bot that will leave out the em dashes, no? Maybe the chinese one deepseek? Or you could probably feed the output of one into the other and say take out the em dashes.

>>24564054
In mac os is easier:

- = hyphen
- + option = – en dash
- + option + shift = — em dash

>>24563537 (OP)
it'll come back in 10 years or so. if semi-colons could survive an arguably much worse fate, than so can em dashes

however no human will ever use an em dash when they can use an hyphen instead. that's a cross he's borne for centuries, and will continue to do forever

I'm going to start using the ChatGPT style guide for all my writing.

>>24563559
ok -- I won't -- use em dash

>>24564038
you're gonna have your text looking like a boomer's forum post

>>24566808
>Using em-dashes correctly
>Adding two spaces after periods
Based posting

>>24563537 (OP)
This one legitimately hurts. Em dashes can add some good texture to the text if used sparingly and now I'm at risk of being called an AI-fag

>>24563654
A smart decision – The machine can use the word "Nigger," but can't not use en/em dashes. I think this is a turning point in our resistance.

honestly I expected this thread to die after 2-3 replies
the aggravation is real

>>24563537 (OP)
I'm a semicolon writer myself; nothing but a semicolon will do.

>>24567934
>I;m a semicolon writer myself; nothing but a semicolon will do;
ftfy

;;24567964
;I;m a semicolon writer myself; nothing but a semicolon will do;
;ftfy
ftfy

;;;;;;;;;;
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;;;;;
;;;;;
;;;;

>>24567934
they don't fulfill the same function. an em dash is for a parenthetical phrase. that's not what you use a semicolon for

>>24563573
I instinctively knew who this is just from he thumbnail. Don't think I've ever seen his portrait before, but this guy is the ultimate dash boss.

>>24563605
I think the use of dash is proper here. But I'm inclined to dash even if a comma would suffice, should probably read the rules again.

Also I have an autohotkey hotstring set up to replace triple hyphen with a dash whenever I type. Alt+0150/0151 works too

>>24563537 (OP)
>decided to finally start incorporating the em dash in my writing a few years ago
>get really used to it and like it a lot
>now you risk getting called ChatGPT and dismissed whenever you effortpost
I didn't need reasons to dislike AI even more, but alright.

>>24563537 (OP)
I've been writing since I was a baby and I only recently started using the em dash. What's wrong with it? I think it's nice!

Robert Heinlein disapproves of '—All You Zombies—' who don't use enough em dashes.

>>24563605
>Am I correctly using a dash in place of a semicolon here?
Probably not. It depends more on intention. If the phrase is parenthetical, then you use the em dash. If the phrase is essential (which seems to be the case here), then you use the semicolon.

>>24563537 (OP)
You're not a writer if you're not using custom keyboard sets with — somewhere handy.

alt-gr + - for me

>>24564038
Use MSKLC if you're on windows and create your own keyboard layout. It looks daunting, but just copy/paste one of the already created layouts, and change a key or two for your purposes.


https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=102134

>>24565453
*preceding

>>24563537 (OP)
I have never used an em dash in my life. No straight man I know has used them either. Is it a queer thing?

>>24563537 (OP)
>Childhood in Tennessee - Runs away - New Orleans - Fights - Is shot - To Galveston - Nacogdoches - The Reverend Green - Judge Holden - An affray - Toadvine - Burning of the hotel - Escape.
McCarthy bros... its over...

>>24563537 (OP)
Also need to give up on correct spelling and grammar, and salt and pepper human postings with TOS breaking words. It would be nice to get chatgpt posters IP banned from using openai for pasting something into it. I don't know what they would ban them for. NIgger tits

>>24570651
No honey
breaking everything into gay vs straight is a queer thing

>>24570640
you are correct
i shall proceed with seppuku

>>24563540
Why

>>24563986
Thanks anon, I actually learnt something new today.

>>24564101
It's clearer to isolate a portion of text within a sentence. I use the regular dash for stuff that is expected to blend in like “pages 201–11” or “Paris–Washingon”. I don't care about AI I will keep my beloved em dash.

>>24563544
Writing in that way feels distinctly like fanfiction, as if the writer is commentating on Bob's disposition.

>>24563537 (OP)
You can pry it from my cold, dead hands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pco91kroVgQ

>>24563654
Bullshit. It's not hard coded and can be easily prompted out.

; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;

>>24572934
well put
now get back to making me smut

>>24563986
This is incorrect. Em-dashes are the proper punctuation for parentheticals, not em-dashes.

>>24572946
prove it

>>24570651
It's something where you first have to graduate from middle school

>>24570651
most effective for dropping soi on twitter. extremely effective if you have Dr. in your handle for having a phd in underwater lesbian pubic hair twirling