I can't read Russian literature anymore. Not only does it proceed from a culture that has brought nothing but misery, death, destruction, ignorance, barbarism, mysticism, and autocracy to the world, but also it revels in this fact and tries to paint it as good. For example the disgusting slavophile rants in the Idiot which paint the west and western christianity as degenerate and corrupt while praising Russian troglodytism as the manifestation of a culturally superior spirit. Every one of these Russian writers could be mistaken as putin speechwriters. Ultimately every single russian feels a barbarian in comparison to the West and this gets transformed into a gross nationalism that is putrid and bellicose because it is rooted in an inferiority complex.

>>24576285 (OP)
>a culture that has brought nothing but misery, death, destruction, ignorance, barbarism, mysticism, and autocracy to the world, but also it revels in this fac
Based

>paint the west and western christianity as degenerate and corrupt while praising Russian troglodytism as the manifestation of a culturally superior spirit
Based

>Every one of these Russian writers could be mistaken as putin speechwriters
Based

>every single russian feels a barbarian
Based

>this gets transformed into a gross nationalism
Based

>it is rooted in an inferiority complex.
I don't see any Russians creating threads on Dvach to cry about how they tried to read English/American/French/German literature but couldn't handle and now try to justify their failure with some gay shit about Trump or something. Just you.

>>24576296
>I don't see any Russians creating threads on Dvach to cry about how they tried to read English/American/French/German literature but couldn't handle and now try to justify their failure with some gay shit about Trump or something. Just you.
Yeah cause you literally don't know shit I was just reading the idiot and there dostoyevsky goes on a big rant about how the west is evil and Western Christianity is a false Christianity compared to Russian Christianity (get this... because Catholicism is apparently too tied to worldly power, whereas the Russian Church, literally a propaganda arm of the Russian state and nothing more, is apparently not). Their whole culture and politics is built upon a third worldist hatred of the west and its only us in the west that extend the olive branch to them with our detached orientalism

>>24576285 (OP)

"You see a lot, Doctor Lecter. But are you strong enough to point that high-powered perception at yourself? What about it? Why don't you - why don't you look at yourself and write down what you see? Or maybe you're afraid to."

>>24576285 (OP)
also, wtf is happening in this video? is this some kind of russian Horror Film?

>>24576344
Lmfao Russian horror film. Horror film for us is reality for Russians.

>>24576285 (OP)
>in comparison to the West
As if Russia was the one that went around to every continent enslaving and murdering the natives.

Nobody gives a shit about their current border dispute.

>>24576320
>Catholicism is apparently too tied to worldly powe
It is tho. And it's not some Russian nationalist idea that Dosto came up with. Umberto Eco raised made the same exact issue in The Name of the Rose. Does that make him a gross Russian nationalist? Did Marquez and Luther serve the Kremlin barbarism? Was Geoffrey Chaucer a Putin speechwriter?

But more importantly - these matters in Dosto's works are not aimed at criticizing "the West". He was rather lampooning Russians who sought to follow, imitate and praise the more developed societies, the "Zapadniki" movement, to which he belonged in his revolutionary youth, and which he violently disowned after his stint in Siberia.
>"Our Russian liberal is first of all a lackey and only looks around for how to clean someone's boots"
In the very same The Idiot, you could instead pay attention to Prince Myshkin's memories of his time in Switzerland, in which he explicitly describes it as a great place, full of nice and good people whom he remembers dearly. Dosto himself spent a lot of time in Europe, and had only good things to say about it. The carriers of degeneracy and corruption in his works are not "le Westerners", but Russians who disregard their heritage, culture and history in order to cargo cult a different society which they don't understand even remotely, seduced by it's appearances and material wealth, for which they are eager to sell their souls. Svidrigaylov and Smerdyakov are not ebil foreigners, they are small, pathetic Russian people who express their hatred of themselves and people around them through slaving admiration of something different, which they don't actually understand:
>"“There’s no need of defense. In 1812 there was a great invasion of Russia by Napoleon, first Emperor of the French, father of the present one, and it would have been a good thing if they had conquered us. A
clever nation would have conquered a very stupid one and annexed it. We should have had quite different institutions."
Notice "father of the present one". Nigga jerks off the French Empire while not knowing shit about it.

And the best part is that the essence of these characters is not their shallow xenopatriotism - it's their absence of love towards themselves and those around them, admiration towards developed nations is just the shape that this absence of love takes for the story.

>>24576285 (OP)
Read accounts of the Siege of Stalingrad and go for a walk and recontemplate the Russian spirit.

>>24576320
>whereas the Russian Church
Dostoyevsky never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever promoted the Russian Orthodox Church. Dosto's Christianity is a sort of quasi-Protestant grassrootism, "the Spirit of Christ is not in the Church but in his people" kind of thing. Raskolnikov and Sonya read a Bible - by themselves - a blasphemous act in the eyes of the Orthodox Church of the time. Elder Zosima is not a priest, he is not even a proper monk - he's a religious recluse, reluctantly accepted by a monastic community, and even then only reluctantly, personally disliked by other monks - something that the book takes care to point out.

Brother, you seethe so hard at Russians that you get filtered by something as entry-level as Dosto. This only makes Russians appear better then they really are, by filtering (you) and not seething at any possible national element in fiction foreign to them.

>>24576383
In Russia, teenagers at summer camp slash you.

>>24576410
>Raskolnikov and Sonya read a Bible - by themselves - a blasphemous act in the eyes of the Orthodox Church of the time.
That reminds me, Lenin had a sarcastic pamphlet pillorying Russian traditionalism and bureacratism by contrasting it with the crazy concept of the New York City public library system, where the hoi polloi can do the outrageous thing of walking in, checking out books within a few minutes, and taking them home to read.

>>24576397
Such a dishonest post from the start.

Notice how I said Dostoyevsky calls Western Christianity false for being too tied to worldly power IN CONTRAST WITH Russian Christianity which is supposedly pure and innocent. Western Christianity is obviously tied to worldly power but it's MUCH LESS SO than Russian Christianity. The Russian Church is a propaganda arm of the Russian state, whereas the Catholic Church is the sovereign of its own state and thus much less corruptible by other powers. Even today the Russian Church cheerleads the fratricide in Ukraine, and Putin - once a top Communist party member and KGB agent -- is now the top Christian in Russia.

You just ignored that and claimed that I said Western Christianity is not tied to worldly power.

The other stuff you said just proves my point. Russians have an inferiority complex because they're barbarians compared to the West and the job of Russian writers like dostoyevsky is to psychopathologise the reform minded people in his society to say thay they're evil for wanting Russia to stop being a backwards shithole. Spin it how you want but that's what it is.

>>24576430
>You just ignored that
Anon, post word limit is a thing, consider >>24576410.

>>24576285 (OP)
The West is the one that's slaughtering innocent children in Gaza every day. You disgusting rat.

>>24576410
He did in the idiot.
>>24576453
What was the point then? I didn't say western Christianity is not corrupted by worldly power. Also funny how you mentioned that he was interned in Siberia. He was sent there for -- guess what? -- being part of a fucking book club that read dissident books. Russian autocracy sentenced him to DEATH for this and did a mock execution. The ultimate symbol of Russian barbarism is dostoyevskys punishment by the Tsar. But what does dostoyevsky do? Does he rebel against the Russian darkness? No he fucking stops advocating reform and becomes a Russian nationalist writing books against the west and against reform. Lol. Proving my point.

>>24576483
>The West
>Gaza
Nope, those are jews and mud slimes

>>24576483
Guess the top country where Israelis trace their origin. No, I'm not talking about the ancient Kingdom of Israel or whatever. Note this mystery country also technically no longer exists.
https://youtu.be/cjL0VI2UmMY

>>24576521
>He did in the idiot.
No. Try and provide a quote that argues otherwise.

>I didn't say western Christianity is not corrupted by worldly power.
And Dosto doesn't claim that Russian Orthodox Church is any better. ROC was in fact kinda irrelevant even by Dosto's time, due to how cucked it was by the Tsarist regime. Dosto wanks muh deeply personal spirituality.

>He was sent there for -- guess what? -- being part of a fucking book club that read dissident books.
Nah, the guys he knew were planning some real bomb shit, which was the style at the time, and Dosto was aware of that. I do agree that strictly abstaining from any criticism of a regime that definitely deserved a lot of it of was kinda gay, but it helped him remain a great author producing timeless classics. Contrast with Solzhenitsyn, who had a very similar history and even deliberately Dostolarped, but decayed into pure /pol/posting about muh Shtalin. Currently completely irrelevant.

>No he fucking stops advocating reform
Anon you unironically sound like some blue-haired troon or a Bulgakovian parody of a Soviet-era party clerk:
>"This author was not showing sufficient pawlitikal ehwernez in his time he's heckin' problematic and counterrevolutionary~"
Only even actual literal Bolshies recognized Dosto's timeless quality and influence.

>>24576285 (OP)
> Ultimately every single russian feels a barbarian in comparison to the West and this gets transformed into a gross nationalism that is putrid and bellicose because it is rooted in an inferiority complex.
Interestingly, there is a monologue in Turgenev's Smoke that essentially says the same. But Turgenev was also the most westernized of serious Russian writers of that era.
>>24576410
Very much this.
BTW, not many people agree with me on this but I think one of the main reasons why Russia and other post-USSR states are having such a hard time developing a democracy is that their religious reformation movement - the Old Believers - was crushed in the Nikonian reform. I think the root of democracy in the west is the principle of "in Christo solo" which introduced into the culture the idea that one should think about ethical (aka political) matters alone, without reliance on a centralized authority. (Ukraine is kind of a standout here, but they had the relative lawlessness and "frontier" society to their advantage.)

>>24576668
> I think the root of democracy in the west is the principle of "in Christo solo"
I don't get anon are you saying that Italy, Spain and UK are undemocratic?

>I think one of the main reasons why Russia and other post-USSR states are having such a hard time developing a (representative) democracy is...
...that they never had anything which can be described as a middle class, which is necessary for a representative democracy.

Collapse of the USSR and the period immediately preceding it caused a tremendous fall of trust in centralized authority in post-Soviet societies. They wallowed in a political hangover for some time and then reverted to strongman populism as a traditional reaction to untrustworthy institutions. Poor people who mistrust central authority don't turn to democracy - they turn to demagogue figures. Representative democracy is something that maintains the status quo between a lot of rich people, supported by a massive groups of moderately-well-off people, who all have enough to lose to desire careful consensus-building.

>>24576383

not unless you get conscripted to fight on the front lines, I assume russia is really boring. It's 90% birch forest and grass, what else is there to do but ponder the soul?

>>24576703
> I don't get anon are you saying that Italy, Spain and UK are undemocratic?
I think Catholicism absorbed enough of the protestant practices as a reaction to reformation - in practice if not formally - that the same effect took place.

>>24576720
>I think Catholicism absorbed enough of the protestant practices as a reaction to reformation - in practice if not formally - that the same effect took place
...in Britain?

>>24576716
>what else is there to do but ponder the soul?
Consume alcohol, ofc.

>>24576647
Dude in the idiot he writes a big self insert rant about how western society is inferior to Russian society including western Christianity being inferior to Russian Christianity and that Russians need to bring Russian civilisation and the Russian Jesus to the West. I don't need to provide a quote go ask chatgpt if my characterisation is correct.
>you're just ideological
No lol I read the idiot with no ideological preconceptions it's dostoyevsky that started bringing politics in and talking about anyone who wants to reform Russian society is le evil and stupid and the west is evil etc

>>24576734
> I don't need to provide a quote
I accept your concession.

>No lol I read the idiot with no ideological preconceptions
I don't believe you.

>>24576716
What about actually building a country like the west not fucking commie shithole blocks filled with alcoholics and gopniks?

>>24576728

I guess I'm exoticizing the russian by thinking they drink vodka and ponder the soul, instead of drink vodka and sodomizing other men in the homeless shelter.

>>24576738
I'm too lazy to go on a quotemine for you, you're too lazy to chatgpt it. If you want a hint download the pdf and type "Russian jesus" or something. He talks about how it's necessary for Russians to force their jesus down our throat because their version of Christianity is supposedly superior.

>>24576738
Also you're so dishonest you're acti g like dosto is an apolitical artist and I'm mad at him for not denouncing the tsar or some shit, dude he was a propagandists for Russian nationalism his books read like putin speeches. If you're going to bring politics into your work you can get critiqued on politics

>>24576746
>you're too lazy
No. I can easily look for quotes, but I can't find what's not in there. ChatGPT hallucinates insane shit if you use it to quotemine. You can get him to quote Hitler on vital national importance of intense racemixing with niggers in like 2 prompts.

>type "Russian jesus" or something
Picrelated.

>>24576746

Russia suffers from brain drain, even with closed borders their best often left or were exiled. Maybe they could have buolt something if they all stayed, so it's like russia stabbed themselves in the throat

>>24576712
beautiful

>>24576772
Ok fine I found it he goes on a big rant about Catholics and the west and says the Russians must bring us their Jesus (presumably by warfare - this line of thinking leads to putinism/duginism/Russian imperialism)
>Oh, no; we must resist, and quickly, quickly! We must let our Christ shine forth upon the Western nations, our Christ whom we have preserved intact, and whom they have never known. Not as slaves, allowing ourselves to be caught by the hooks of the Jesuits, but carrying our Russian civilization to them, we must stand before them, not letting it be said among us that their preaching is ‘skilful,’ as someone expressed it just now.”

>>24576797
Anon, first of all, that whole scene is Prince publicly dropping his spaghetti.

Secondly,
>Russians must bring us their Jesus (presumably by warfare
We now know that you did not read the book. In the sentence preceding the one you quoting Prince shittalks Socialism for it's violent ways:
>"Why, Socialism is the progeny of Romanism and of the Romanistic spirit. It and its brother Atheism proceed from Despair in opposition to Catholicism. It seeks to replace in itself the moral power of religion, in order to appease the spiritual thirst of parched humanity and save it; not by Christ, but by force"
and later does so again.

Thirdly, go ahead and find one mention or reference to the Russian Orthodox Church, which supposedly triggered you so violently, in that quote, or the entire conversation, or chapter.

>>24576285 (OP)
I'm the same but with African and LGBT literature.

>>24576285 (OP)
NAFOtroon detected
You lost

>>24576797
>this line of thinking leads to putinism/duginism/Russian imperialism
NTA but this is bad how?

>>24576819
Always with the faggy slights. I obviously read it which is why I described it perfectly before finding the actual quote.

He's talking about Russian orthodoxy obviously by simple deductive logic. When you talk about a nation or a body of people corporately and say they as a whole have a Jesus which they've preserved intact and need to bring to otjer nations you're talking about the religion that the vast majority of them follow historically. If I said the Iranians have the true God I wouldn't be referring to that one gnostic neopagan zoroastrian Iranian 4chan larper that inevitably exists somewhere in that vast nation, I'd be talking about shia Islam as it's expressed in Iran

>>24576819
Also with respect to the interpretation of that scene I saw it as a self insert not him dropping his spaghetti as you phras3 it. Obviously he embarrassed himself but that's kind of tjenpoint about the character is he's wise and noble despite being socially retarded. I admit that's a matter of interpretation

>>24576837
It's fundamentally unjust from any perspective because the Russians are notoriously terrible at warfare and only ever win wars when the climate or their vast meatwave hordes are utilised. In ww1 even the horde tactic failed lol as the greatly outnumbered Germans thrashed them into submission even while fighting a two front war. Same in ww2 the Germans were superior in every way except numbers and allies. So even by right of conquest Russia kind of never deserves to win even though they do. Secondly Russian society is a troglodytic backwater and even the enlightened Russians know this. Peter the great literally built a new city with a German sounding name and moved the capital there cause he was that embarrassed at being Russian (though tbf the rulers of Russia were always German/western European by blood ruling over dirty slavic hordes whom they disciplined tightly lol, eg Nicholas ii was the cousin of the British and german king)

>>24576845
>I obviously read it which is why I described it perfectly before finding the actual quote.
I have troubles understanding how one could read Prince's radical pacifist critique of both Catholicism and Socialism right before and after the quoted passage and then interpret his statement as justification of warfare. The only possibilities are you not reading the book and you being clinically retarded.

>When you talk about a nation or a body of people corporately and say they as a whole have a Jesus which they've preserved intact and need to bring to otjer nations you're talking about the religion that the vast majority of them follow historically
The vast majority of people in Russia at that time are illiterate peasants, who, similarly to other writers of the time, in Dosto's interpretation are not actually "people". He is very explicitly talks about personal spirituality, which "actual people" of Russia have supposedly preserved due to not being integrated into a system of power that utilizes that spirituality to justify itself (in this case Catholicism) and expand it's worldly control. Prince argument is essentially that Russians are spiritually naive by not turning their spirituality into an industrial engine of power, as Catholic states of the time did through political action of the Church and colonialism. And that form spiritual naivety is by itself the kind of spirituality closest to Jesus. This idea is explored in the character of Prince himself - and the conclusion of the exploration is not exactly affirmative. It's extremely basic and transparent, and blatantly echoes early Protestantism. How are you having issues understanding it? Do you have brain damage?

>>24576856
...that's very cool and all but you kinda went on a tangent there. Putinism/duginism/Russian imperialism is bad how?

>>24576895
Is bad because they can't rule properly which is why they built a fucking wall around Berlin to stop people escaping their rule. Is it OK?

>>24576890
>>24576890
Muh brain damage. Not only peasants believed in orthodoxy the king and the nobles did too so your argument doesn't work. He's talking about the Russian religion which is obviously orthodoxy not some obscure larp that a few Russians believed in. Russian aristocracy weren't protestant

>>24576910
>the king and the nobles did too
Anon the characters of the novel are meant to represent the contemporary nobility. How much Russian Orthodoxy to you see in them?

>>24576904
>Is bad because they can't rule properly which is why they built a fucking wall around Berlin to stop people escaping their rule.
...which is bad how?

>>24576285 (OP)
Z.

>>24576918
As much as my family is Catholic. We don't get on our knees and screech the hail Mary religion is just a cultural thing fir most people. The characters in the book aren't protestant either.

>>24576921
Because it proves that they can't run a country since once they're in charge the people living under their rule wish to leave and have to be prevented by force from doing so. Could I perhaps interest sir in our flavourful crayon collection?

>>24576930
>religion is just a cultural thing fir most people.
...but they somehow represent a threat of a Russian religious crusade...

>The characters in the book aren't protestant either.
Yes. They are barely religious at all, without being atheist, which Dosto interprets as spiritual naivety, which he sees as a unique trait, more desirable than Catholic spirituality subjugated to worldly matters. I feel I need to phrase it like I'm talking to a retard because I probably am: the characters in question are not protestant, Dosto's idea of spiritual naivety/purity/simplicity being more desirable than Catholic worldly spirituality is similar to ideas of early Protestantism. There's legitimately nothing new or nationalistic about that, and t has fundamentally nothing to do with the Russian Orthodox Church.

>>24576935
>can't run a country since once they're in charge
...which is bad how?

>>24576953
>Italian author writes about how Italians have preserved Jesus intact and need to preach their Jesus to the Protestant Germans, tying it meanwhile to Italian civilisation while ranting about how Protestantism is evil
>But it's absurd to say he was referring to Catholics

>>24576963
So Italy is same as Russia?

>>24576953
Lmfao it gets even worse when you just look it up. From Wikipedia

>Dostoevsky's paternal ancestors were part of a Russian noble family of Russian Orthodox Christians. The family traced its roots back to Aslan Chelebi-Murza, a Tatar warlord who defected from the Golden Horde and joined the Russian side in 1389, eventually converting to Christianity from Islam.[7]

>Through his relationship with Belinsky he expanded his knowledge of the philosophy of socialism. He was attracted to its logic, its sense of justice and its preoccupation with the destitute and the disadvantaged. However, his Russian Orthodox faith and religious sensibilities could not accord with Belinsky's admixture of atheism, utilitarianism and scientific materialism, leading to increasing friction between them.

>Dostoevsky distinguished three "enormous world ideas" prevalent in his time: Roman Catholicism, Protestantism and (Russian) Orthodoxy. He claimed that Catholicism had continued the tradition of Imperial Rome and had thus become anti-Christian and proto-socialist,[133] inasmuch as the Church's interest in political and mundane affairs led it to abandon the idea of Christ. He found Protestantism self-contradictory and claimed that it would ultimately lose power and spirituality. He deemed (Russian) Orthodoxy to be the ideal form of Christianity.

>Dostoevsky held to a Pan-Slavic ideology that was conditioned by the Ottoman occupations of Eastern Europe. This ideology was motivated in part by the desire to promote a common Orthodox Christian heritage, which he saw as both unifying as well as a force for liberation.

>Dostoevsky was an Orthodox Christian[140] who was raised in a religious family and knew the Gospel from a very young age.

>After his release from prison, Dostoevsky incorporated religious themes, especially those of Russian Orthodoxy, into his writing. Elements of gothic fiction,[157] romanticism,[158] and satire[159] are observable in some of his books.

So I don't understand, did you just lie or make shit up all this time while calling me brain damaged lmfao

>>24576983
Legit brain damage.

>>24576990
>>24576990
YOU CLAIM: "Dostoyevsky never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever promoted the Russian Orthodox Church."

THE FACTS ARE: "[Dostoyevsky] (Russian) Orthodoxy to be the ideal form of Christianity."

Cope, seethe, etc

>>24576998
>Church
Devastating brain damage.

>>24577001
>h-he was orthodox, but he didn't believe in the orthodox church
I admire your dedication to fighting to the death but you're already dead sir

>>24577009
>h-he was orthodox, but he didn't believe in the orthodox church
There wasn't much to believe in. As you seethed in you second post, the Russian Orthodox Church was a decayed, vestigial propaganda arm of the Tsardom.

As you quoted muh Wikipedia yourself, Dosto was raised in a religious household that _studied_ Gospel - not "diligently attending service", not "studying under a priest", but studied it themselves - which was a practice considered blasphemous and forbidden by the church. But being utterly cucked and powerless, the church could not do anything about it. We then see the development of this grassroots spirituality in theological speculation present in multiple novels, including The Idiot - speculation that was likewise forbidden by the Church as unorthodox. We see it in personal spiritual development of positive characters in Dosto's works, which never involves ordained church authorities in any way, and in fact harshly criticizes them on multiple occasions. And most importantly we see the thorough exploration of the idea s Christ-like spiritual purity untainted by hierarchy, dogma or worldly power in The Idiot, through a central character who is not a priest, not a monk, and develops his fountain of spirituality through intimate introspection, not through submission to church authority - and then tragically loses it, due to this purity being incompatible with the sinful nature of human existence, which you would know if you read the fucking book instead of being a brain damaged shitposting nigger.

>>24577042
I appreciate your point - he wasn't a strict dogmatist on all points - I just don't think it's relevant. Your logic is funny to me as a cradle Catholic because it's very Protestant. Protestants actually believe in their religion, I "believe" in Catholicism in the same way I "believe" in myself or love my family. An Italian wears a crucifix for the same reason he has an Italian flag in his window.

>>24576837

anon doesn't have to dodge ukranian drones on the front line of ruined towns for reasons nobody can really explain and die in a ditch surrounded by bewildered central asians wanting citizenship, suffer the consequences of pointlesss war and change your mind.