Would anyone like to read a Plato dialogue a day with me? We can split longer dialogues into half a day or a book (chapter) a day.
I would be reading chronologically in the conventional order, so elenchic dialogues first, then middle sophistics, then Republic, then the difficult later ones, and finishing with the Laws.
Then we could do major texts of Aristotle, probably Categories, Physics, Metaphysics, On the Heavens, On Generation and Corruption, On the Soul, and some of the Parva Naturalia. Then I would probably read anthologies of Hellenistic philosophy, then important texts like the Derveni papyrus and Orphic Gold Tablets, Middle Platonists like Plutarch, Dream of Scipio, then Plotinus, Proclus, Iamblichus, etc. Eventually I want to move on to gnosticism, alchemy, and hermeticism/theosophy, and pivot to Islamic philosophy and theosophy, then medieval magic, then the Renaissance and beyond. I'd be willing to take a long detour into Philo if people are interested because I have the Yonge edition.
I just want to have a place to discuss these things. I was thinking of making an ongoing series of /lit/ threads as a sort of journal of my thoughts and questions as I read, and people can just join in as they please. But it would be fun if people read even a few of the texts in tandem with me. As I read the Plato, I'm going to read Guthrie on the Sophists and Orphics, the new Loeb compilations of the Sophists, Huffman on Philolaus, Jaeger's Theology of the Greeks, Dodds, Snell, Lloyd and Cornfield on Greek science, Burkert on Pythagoras and Guthrie's Pythagoras sourcebook, Dillon on the early and middle Academy, and some other stuff. So I will hopefully be able to say non-retarded things that make my readings more than just "some guy reading Plato."
I'm planning for this to be a year-long project or so. Would people at least help me keep the threads bumped? If it helps, and if I actually stick with it instead of talking big and doing nothing like a retard, we could turn it into a Metaphysics General and turn /lit/ into a Medicean academy or Rosicrucian invisible college or something.
Adding a few things for the itinerary: Greek Magical Papyri, Hermetic Corpus, Chaldaean Oracles, Galen, Cleanthes, Sextus Empiricus, Zosimus, Alexander of Aphrodisias (Soul, Fate, Metaphysics?), select Neoplatonic commentaries (Proclus: Timaeus, Parmenides, Republic, Alcibiades), Damascius (Parmenides), Olympiodorus (Gorgias, Phaedo, Alcibiadies, Philebus), Hermias (Phaedrus), Simplicius (Categories, Physics, Heavens, Soul), Philoponus (Eternity of the World, maybe others), Ammonius (Categories, Isagoge).
Testament of Solomon, Nag Hammadi (Zostrianos, Allogenes, Trimorphic Protennoia), gnostic standards, Justin Martyr.
where do i even get all those books
>>24579031 (OP)Sure, I'm game, at least for now while work is light. So are you starting then with Euthyphro? When were you thinking of kicking off?
By the by, look up Debra Nails's The People of Plato, it's a prosopography of every historic figure mentioned in the dialogues, with some asides on important events like the descration of the Herms and blaspheming of the Mysteries by Alcibiades, the overthrow of the democracy under the Thirty Tyrants, and more.
Bro just listed a 1000 books. I know people like this, who read all the time and fail to understand anything.
>>24579185Sure, Euthyphro sounds good to me. Can start as early as tomorrow if you're game.
>>24579170Perseus/Scaife for a lot of them, MIT Classics, Lacus Curtius for some, archive.org for many, libgen, Anna's Archive. A lot are just available on websites since the Internet is full of gnostic schizos.
>>24579249Why don't you want to read a thousand books? Are you gay or something?
>>24579299You need time to digest a book. If you just jump from book to book, it's like eating too much food at once.
>>24579299I can start tomorrow. I will say, you may want to consider something like readings by Stephanus page numbers (the margin numbers with letters a-e) or something. If you read the Parmenides, Gorgias, or the Phaedrus in 2 days, you'll regret how much you'll rush through without understanding, so maybe figure on 10 Stephanus pages a day as an ideal, once the slightly longer dialogues start coming in.
>reading one of the greatest philosophers in history as prep for New Age bullshit
You will get bored and give up. Or you’ll speed through and understand nothing.
This is a great idea. Maybe we can start with the Republic tomorrow, since that's the most famous and important dialogue. Then maybe Laws would be a fitting sequel for Saturday.
>>24579453You realize that to understand a complex work of philosophy you have to read it over and over again, right? I can see it now, you’ll run through the Metaphysics in 3 days and then add to the heap of pseuds who ruin Aristotle threads. “Aristotle said that essences are eternal!”
>>24579378That's a good idea. Feel free to lead with organisational stuff since I can adjust to read less or more. I'd rather than than impose my preferences on people. I have actually read most of Plato before (most stuff several times) but this is the Big Systematic Read-through I've been wanting to do for a while. Same with Aristotle.
>>24579334That's true, that's why I'm planning to read 15-20 pages a day with people and discuss it. I'll be reading and rereading a lot more on my own (mainly the secondary lit).
>>24579453I'm averse to reading the Republic right away but if you want to do it early we could just do both, or rather we could have the "main" track (Euthyphro and onward) and then you and I could just read the Republic. A book a day maybe? I recently read books 1-2 pretty closely so it'll be fun to go back over them and see how stupid my interpretation is as anons critique it.
>>24579527I don’t need attention just making a true observation. Someone who wants to study philosophy so he can get into alchemy is a guaranteed pseud, probably a stoner.
>>24579535For sure. Most of the shorter dialogues can be done in a day, I'd say something like the Alcibiades Major or Hippias Major might need two days, and maybe three for the Apology. Dialogues like Gorgias or Phaedrus or Symposium you might want to give four or five days for, but we can settle on those readings as we come to them.
>>24579031 (OP)Sure, I'd join, since I've been meaning to start reading philosophy and it would make things easier to have anons hold me to no account to keep up. Would you be posting the dialogues here or am I supposed to procure my own copies?
>>24579031 (OP)I’m in! Great timing, I’ve been meaning to return to Plato lately. I’ll read Euthyphro tonight.
>>24579593Agreed
If we're getting started tomorrow, maybe it's helpful to have some questions to bounce off of for discussion.
1) Socrates is about to be formally charged for his trial, which follows the day after this. He claims to want to learn from Euthyphro what piety is. Given each definition of piety, what can Socrates hope for in each case? What should he do if piety is x, y, or z?
2) The city claims the right to prosecute impiety. To whatever extent it's possible to judge so, are the Athenians pious according to any of the definitions?
3) Socrates offers a definition of piety understood as part of justice, but justice comes up in discussion before then. What is the connection throughout between justice and piety?
4) What is the connection between Euthyphro's claim to have divine knowledge, and the case he brings against his father? Why does he settle on imitating Zeus instead of another god?
5) Socrates' own suggested definition of piety seems surprisingly traditional; why does he offer it to Euthyphro? Why does Euthyphro seem to have a reservation about how Socrates articulates it?
6) Euthyphro is plainly an odd bird among his fellow Athenians, so how might we expect, to what extent it's possible to imagine it, this conversation to go with a more "average" Athenian?
7) Many people are familiar with the "Euthyphro paradox," but how are the passages that follow it, about passive and active verbs, connected with it?
8) Should the soul be considered an important subject in a dialogue about piety and the gods? If so, what should we make of the soul's absence in the dialogue? Is it implied somehow?
9) Is there a way to resolve the different definitions, or are they irresolvable?
10) Euthyphro might be understood as a stand-in for a certain view of knowledge by divine revelation. If Socrates is a stand-in for philosophy, and if that means coming to knowledge by one's own powers, do we see revelation and reason in tension, or does Plato, in this dialogue, think they can be resolved, or does he not think there's any tension between them?
OP here, affirming I am reading Euthyphro for tomorrow. Excited to discuss it so many anons.
>>24579966Very helpful.
>>24579602We can post them here. I personally like reading in parallel with the Greek and prefer literal translations, so I use Perseus:
https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg001.perseus-eng2:2-6?right=perseus-grc1
But there are good versions all over. I think I remember this one being nice and straightforward:
https://philosophyintrocourse.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/plato-euthyphro.pdf
>>24579602Check Anna's Archive for Four Texts on Socrates by Thomas West. It has Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, and Aristophanes' Clouds in decent translation.
>>24579031 (OP)It's very difficult to run a group read online.
A Classical Philosophy General would work better.
If you still want to go along with it, definitely don't go as fast as you are planning to. Also, don't plan too far ahead. I'd suggest you start with an excerpt of the Apologia.
I wouldn't even start with Plato, I'd probably choose a few chapters from Xenophon's Memorabilia.
What would we be doing after Euthyphro? Any chance of setting up a prospective list so I can be prepared?
