Prime Directive parallels in Tolkien’s Middle-Earth - /lit/ (#24581788)

Anonymous
7/25/2025, 9:21:25 PM No.24581788
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Tolkien’s middle-earth has elements of a prime directive and the sufficiently advanced.

The elves are examples of sufficiently advanced aliens (alien to men, not the world) that don’t consider their works to be magical, and the “wizards” are the equivalent of truly alien (actually alien to / predating the world) beings taking on the guise of old sagely men (humans have a massive age bias when it comes to listening to people) being sent down by a higher society to guide lesser lifeforms on a path to self sufficiency a more subtle way, after a previous and much more involved attempt ended in disaster, reshaping middle-earth into its current form. Pic related.

The elves look to the Maia/“wizards” the same way humans (and hobbits) look to the elves. Enigmas. Magic is a bar. It is higher or lower, depending on where you stand or where you come from. Gandalf isn’t a wizard back home in Valinor, and the wicked black machines of Mordor are seen as black magic, or compared to sorcery, witchcraft, by those unexposed to such industrial horrors.

Meanwhile everything is just Music/Song to Eru/God, poetically similar to how Einstein saw nature or physics as ‘the music of the spheres’, or a grand cosmic symphony, lying in wait, for all time, whether we listen in or not.

It’s a point in the series that magic is just… a point of view. A way of looking at the world. Tolkien had called it ‘enchantment’, or being enchanted by something to the point of seeing it as magic. There’s a dark side to this, like with Sauron, who goes out of his way to abuse or weaponize ignorance to start cults and spread fear. His machines are likened to black magic and sorcery.

Gandalf is under a prime directive. He cannot become a crutch. He cannot be open about his true nature. Sauron (and later Saruman) is not under this directive. Gandalf calls himself a wizard, and he may as well be. He goes out of his way to enchant. To inspire. To guide. It's his role. It’s his station. He is the sage. He knows things and can do things you cannot. That’s all there is to it. He doesn't go out of his way to abuse. He doesn’t start cults like Sauron. He only chalks it up to himself. To nature. To the ingenuity of the races (he calls opening a dwarf door a spell). He’s a stage magician purely. Gandalf uses blackpowder for fireworks to create beautiful enchanting displays, to bring joy, to inspire laughter, etc. Saruman meanwhile resorts to using blackpower as a terrible weapon in industrial warfare, creating explosives. He brings the horror out of it. Gandalf brings the beauty out of it.

But it’s all nature. Just seen differently.
Replies: >>24581817 >>24581823 >>24581840 >>24581869 >>24582665 >>24584112
Anonymous
7/25/2025, 9:22:13 PM No.24581793
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And, before you go and claim I’m talking crap. Tolkien said all of this.
Replies: >>24581817 >>24581827 >>24581837 >>24582077 >>24582665 >>24584112
Anonymous
7/25/2025, 9:28:15 PM No.24581817
>>24581788 (OP)
>>24581793
>retarded faggoty screed about fantasyslop
Read a real book.
Anonymous
7/25/2025, 9:30:12 PM No.24581823
>>24581788 (OP)
Wait, there was ANOTHER middle earth, under water? What the hell. How deep does this mythology go?
Replies: >>24581831 >>24581844
Anonymous
7/25/2025, 9:31:06 PM No.24581827
>>24581793
cool. thank you.
Anonymous
7/25/2025, 9:32:06 PM No.24581831
>>24581823
bro hasn't read the Silmariliom
Replies: >>24582086
Anonymous
7/25/2025, 9:33:20 PM No.24581837
>>24581793
> Elves see their works as Art, the same way modern man views their works as artificial
Makes sense. Words like artifice and artifact come from art. Art is inseparable from nature/science.
Anonymous
7/25/2025, 9:33:58 PM No.24581840
>>24581788 (OP)
I appreciate your introspection anon
Anonymous
7/25/2025, 9:35:28 PM No.24581843
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> Tolkien knew well the tension of technology and the threat of the machine. Tolkien explains the use of magic in his mythos and how it relates to machinery. Tolkien had thought through, with great clarity, the difference between the magic of the elves and that of Mordor.

> He observes that the hobbits do not understand the difference between the magic powers exercised by the elves and that of Sauron: “the Elven queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word [magic] both for the devices and operations of the Enemy and for those of the Elves.” Tolkien says the lack of a proper word (other than “magic”) for the work of the elves portrays the same confusion in our own minds and mythologies.

> He goes on to explain the difference: “Their [the elves’] ‘magic’ is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation.”

> Tolkien elucidates the dilemmas we face as technology snowballs and threatens to blow up in our face. Put simply, the magic of Mordor is the machinery of murder. It is the pursuit of power for its own sake, and perceives the natural world merely as a raw material to be exploited, distorted, and destroyed. In the films, we see this in full display as the wizard Saruman destroys Fangorn—chewing up the forest to fuel his machines of war. The realms of the Elves, in contrast, at Rivendell and Lothlorien, are havens of harmony, beauty, and peace created by elven magic.

> The distinction elucidates our own continued, confused, modern relationship to technology. Do we use our increasingly sophisticated gadgetry and expanding knowledge in an elvish, creative, and artful way to bring light, beauty, and truth to the world, or do we use technology to manipulate, make money, and thus gain more power in the world?
Replies: >>24581851 >>24582665
Anonymous
7/25/2025, 9:36:58 PM No.24581844
>>24581823
Left Earth was left underwater lul
Anonymous
7/25/2025, 9:40:36 PM No.24581851
>>24581843
War and its effects on nature really defined this man’s mindset. He truly thought we humans could be making more beautiful things more in tune with nature’s own beauty, and this is what the elves represent. Mordor is applicable to modern day, or the war machine.
Anonymous
7/25/2025, 9:46:45 PM No.24581869
>>24581788 (OP)
>But it’s all nature. Just seen differently.
That’s all religion, magic and science has ever been; an increasingly more accurate and less artistically (not that there is no ambient art to physics) ignorant take on life’s many mysteries. God to the physicist is just some sufficiently advanced godlike being sourced to higher dimensions or something. God will be viewing himself differently too.
Replies: >>24581895
Anonymous
7/25/2025, 9:52:28 PM No.24581895
>>24581869
Tell a double digit IQ Christian that their God is an alien, and they’ll yell at you.

Tell a triple digit IQ Christian that God is an alien, and they’ll nod, agreeing with you.
Anonymous
7/25/2025, 10:51:46 PM No.24582077
>>24581793
I love Tolkien for this; I always liked the idea that magic is just a higher civilisation's art
Anonymous
7/25/2025, 10:53:00 PM No.24582086
>>24581831
I recommend the Lay of Leithian
Sauron actually is a character and younger and dumber than later but somehow he still comes off as intimidating
Anonymous
7/26/2025, 3:17:18 AM No.24582665
>>24581788 (OP)
>>24581793
>>24581843
Ain’t that neat.
Anonymous
7/26/2025, 6:22:24 PM No.24583944
Whenever I tell Tolkien “fans” that there is no magic in middle-earth they always lose their shit at me.
Replies: >>24584549
Anonymous
7/26/2025, 7:09:12 PM No.24584040
Beleriand is at least half that size. Terrible picture.
Anonymous
7/26/2025, 7:46:24 PM No.24584112
feetqueen
feetqueen
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>>24581793
>>24581788 (OP)

didnt read op for fear that its AI slop but elves arent actually a magical people which everyone always misunderstands. only galadriel knows magic because an ainur taught it to her. no other elf uses magic. so it does track that its an art of higher being (the ainur/gods) and its basically just an higher understanding how the world/physics works and taking advantage of that in little ways. like a fantasy version of the matrix
Replies: >>24584549
Anonymous
7/26/2025, 9:30:17 PM No.24584549
>>24583944
Magic does exist, but it's a point of view. It's the chemistry in the brain, purely. Encfhantment.

>>24584112
You're missing the point entirely it seems.
>only Galadriel knows magic
She doesn't consider it magic, is the point being made by Tolkien.
>no other elf uses magic.
From the elven point of view it's not magic. Correct.
Replies: >>24584555 >>24585058
Anonymous
7/26/2025, 9:31:18 PM No.24584555
>>24584549
>Encfhantment.
Enchantment*
Anonymous
7/27/2025, 12:03:24 AM No.24585058
17435704679356303
17435704679356303
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>>24584549
this is retarded demantics fitting for the nigger faggots who also make the balrogs dont have wings and the ainur arent gods arguments. yes its fucking magic. ONLY galadriel and celebrimbor? (who i forgot in my first post but was again taught magic only by a ainur (sauron)) know it. there are other "magic" seeming abilities of elves that seem like magic to mortal but isnt actually magic, like being immortal, walking on snow, some sort of telekinesis or something and other random bullshit but thats just natural elven abilities.

magic is a thing and can be taught to others who can then perform magic