Thread 24867641

Anyone who is a practicing Catholic knows that there is a crisis in the Catholic Church, and that the recent Popes have been confusing, scandalous and at times simply blasphemous. What books should one read to understand this, and what the answer to this crisis is? I've been conservative Novus Ordo for a while but I'm slowly drifting more trad.

What are we thinking of Leo's writings so far?

Books I'm planning to read:
>The Destruction of the Christian Tradition by Rama P. Coomaraswamy
>The Great Facade: The Regime of Novelty in the Catholic Church from Vatican II to the Francis Revolution by Christopher Ferrara
>Marcel Lefebvre by Bernard Tissier de Mallerais
>The Second Vatican Council - An Unwritten Story by Robert DeMattei

>>24867641 (OP)
I don’t know how this stuff doesn’t just cause you to become a lapsed Catholic like me. The gates of hell shall not prevail, right? So if the church lacks authority…

>>24867641 (OP)
It's not the first time we had a bad hierarchy.
The Church has kind of a cyclical history. We have times of decandence and times of recovery. Whenever the Church is in a great crisis, great saints appear to lead it forward.
In two big examples:
The Aryan Heresy and Saint Athanasius (plus others).
The Avignon Papacy and Saint Catherine of Siena (plus others).

>>24867649
Reading the Bible and the Saints is what causes me to hold on. We know that before the end of the world that the Gospel will spread to all corners of the earth, that there will be a great falling away and apostasy, and that the Antichrist will come. We have seen the evangelization of most of the earth to one degree or another, and we have seen Christendom steadily erode into nothingness. Everything I see aligns with this.

I think we're at a stage where many buildings that say 'Catholic' are just apostate for all intents and purposes, in line with the general great apostasy. The Church will be punished just like Israel was by the Lord for its unfaithfulness to the Covenant until we repent, unless it's truly the end of the world.

Are these shepherds at the Vatican true shepherds or false shepherds? I remain agnostic, as no one has declared them to be false shepherds, but I have grave concern about their behavior, but I know that promises were given to Peter. If Judah could lack a king for centuries, and Christ still come to fulfill the promise to David, a rupture in the Petrine office isn't entirely inconceivable.

>>24867641 (OP)
Robert DeMattei had written a book about this.
I think Scott Hahn has too, right? Or was it Peter Kreeft?

>>24868068
It seems like Hahn is drifting trad over time.

>>24867641 (OP)
One more book! One more rule! One more addition to the catchesim! One more Vatican summit! One more change to the doctrine of salvation! One more man made thing! Then it will be complete and perfect!

>>24868098
Sorry, it was not Hahn, it was Trent Horn.

>>24868111
This is one of those passages that looks okay in theory but then when you see what it means in practice, it's terrible.

>>24867641 (OP)
There is some literature out there about disagreeing with the pope for sure.

>>24868350
We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater and go heretic just because the hierarchy is not ideal, like Luther did.

>>24868358
But Luther was a christian and jesus is the baby. Saul’s kike “church” is the bath water.

>>24868363
This is not /his/ for those idiotic kind of takes.

>>24868387
No, this is /lit/, where literature is respected. Proclamations by some pedophile in a dress about the world as recently as 1975 is not literature. I suggest you take your ass to /his/ and /pol/ where you can cry about your political theatre you call a church. The rest of us Christians will rely on the gospel, thank you.

>>24867641 (OP)
I think Leo is kind and well-meaning but ultimately ineffectual. It doesn't help that he's LITERALLY a Boomer. I think he's very obtuse and doesn't appreciate the magnitude of the crisis, multiple crises, really, facing Christendom. We have problems in the Holy Land. We have problems in Europe. We have problems in Africa.

He's not decisive enough, I think. Frankly, not ferocious enough. The Church could badly use a wartime consigliere and instead we've been given a man who's almost peaceful to a fault.

It makes me long for a guy like John Paul. John Paul was a bad motherfucker. Even when he erred like in >>24868194 he was still decisive, and he DID topple the Soviet Union without firing a shot. I just can't imagine Leo walking into Soviet Poland with all that bravado like John Paul did.

>>24867641 (OP)
https://vaticancatholic.com/

The works of Denis Fahey, C.S.Sp.

The works of Garrigou-Lagrange, OP.

I used to be a Catholic. But it's just not rational. Just because it's the most successful and compelling cult in history doesn't mean it's the truth. It's truth doesn't set you free it makes you a slave to fear. And if you're not afraid of hell then I don't think you understood it.

>>24868550
It’s remarkable that you can swap out Christianity for Islam and you would sound exactly like a Sunni preacher. You are all very sick people and I’m happy that capitalism has obliterated your insane ancient idols.

>>24867641 (OP)
More book recommendations for you, OP:
>The Problems with the Other Sacraments: Apart from the New Mass by Rama Coomaraswamy
>Infiltration by Taylor Marshall
>The Voice of the Trumpet by David Allen White

As a Catholic I say Rama Coomaraswamy is more than enough. Irrefutable and universally hated by Novus Ordo cucks and wannabe Traditionalists alike, he was right on everything. His letter exchange with Mother Teresa is hilarious.

>>24868113
Trent Horn? I thought he loved Vatican II

>>24868350
The Reformation is literally what caused our modern decline

>>24867641 (OP)
I miss the tradcath thread, it was actually one of the only good threads on this awful board.

>>24868550
I think we expect too much of the hierarchy and expect too little of ourselves. What we need is a Catherine of Siena. Sometimes recovery is not top-down but bottom-up.

>>24869611
There are different ways of interpreting Vatican II...

He has written a book called "Confusion in the Kingdom: How 'Progressive' Catholicism Is Bringing Harm and Scandal to the Church"

>>24868350
Luther is not the answer. Luther succeeded in tearing apart a united Christian civilization and struck at the foundations of Christian piety and practice in his relentless attacks on penance, good works and above all (and most blasphemously) on the sacrificial nature of the Mass. True Catholics will look to people like Savonarola as heroes of the faith, not heretics like Luther who were too prideful to repent from obvious novelties and errors stemming from his own neuroticism.

A Sedevacantist does not reject any Catholic dogma and believes in the Papacy, he only opposes the numerous errors and semi-Modernism of the post-Conciliar Popes and concludes they are no true Pope at all. Same with Trads except they recognize the Pope. Much different than Protestant errors

>I'm a Catholic, but reject papal authority

No, you're a Protestant. Welcome, brothers!

>>24869710
Sedevacantists don’t resist papal authority, only the so-called authority of anti-Pope imposters.

>>24869715
Six in one hand, half a dozen in the other.

>>24867641 (OP)
Is this how Catholics felt during the Pornocracy?

>>24869708
>"On every level except physical I respect the Papacy"
You're a prot.

>>24869740
>"On every level except physical I respect the Papacy"
Audibly kekd

>>24869620
A large part of our problems in the post Vatican II period came from Protestant influence, even.
Downplaying popular piety, for instance.

Or the adoption by some of the "higher critical methods", something without real evidence and very faddish but that eroded the faith of some clergy.

I'm leaving the Catholic church. I was thinking about how Christ knew Judas would betray him, went down a rabbit hole and the Calvinists won me over. I like how intellectual their faith is, too. They seem more willing to talk theology than us. Not to say we're not intellectual, just that nobody in my church ever discusses theology and everyone seems to get mad if you ask any questions.

>>24869852
You are worse than German Bishops

>>24867641 (OP)
A 'sedecavantist' is just a heretic who is still attached to the material substance of the Church while rejecting the spiritual teachings. That's all there is to it.

>>24869860
Nta but whats wrong with German bishops?

>>24869901
There are some good ones, but in general, they are terrible. They don't really believe in Church teaching in many areas.
The most famous example being in sexual morality.

For example, once someone introduced himself as the "representative of German Bishops" to which Pope Francis (of all people) questioned "are you Catholic"?

And the problem is, due to how German Bishops are chosen, it is hard to improve their Church medium term.
Given their quality, I imagine that given the poor quality of their clergy their Seminaries are complete trash and if someone wants to have good formation they have to go to France or something.

And they have a huge vocation crisis already.

The only solution would be to treat Germany as "mission territory" and send foreign priests there.

>>24869901
The German Bishops are some of the liberal in the world. There is a movement there known as the Synodal Path (Synodale Weg) that wants to push for ideas like women’s ordination, reforming the Church’s sexual ethics, allowing married priests, blessings for sodomites, etc. They also don’t dismiss employees at their churches anymore for having same-sex partners or ‘spouses’ anymore. It’s an utterly apostate part of the Church. They even bless sodomites officially now since early this year

>>24869925
Hm. Thanks for the insight anon :)

>>24869925
>They don't really believe in Church teaching in many areas.
Nonsense

>>24869872
What heresies do Sedevacantists espouse? Religious indifferentism? Religious liberty? Salvation outside of the Church? Oh wait these are all heresies espoused in the post-Conciliar Church

>>24869852
I left years ago, best thing I've ever done.

How many years without a Pope does it have to be before Sedevacantists call it a day?

Cristina Campo, Gli imperdonabili

>>24870230
Half of young, male internet Catholics have never actually been confirmed. It's a LARP. It's probably closer to 90% for Orthobros.

>>24870430
They can't realistically be confirmed anyways because they likely do not have access to a valid Priest assuming Sedevacantism is true, lol

Every single time

>>24870430
Source: your ass

>>24870484
I'm a cradle Catholic. I don't see adult converts as particularly uncharitable. Or more uncharitable than us.

But they tend to be far better educated in theology than cradle Catholics. We, cradle Catholics, tend to be poorly catechized on average.

>>24870484
I've always thought these kinds of arguments were disingenuous. *Does* the Archon of Constantinople's sermon imply that women shouldn't have drivers' licenses? If a religious text supports ultra-conservative moral norms, that doesn't say anything about the truth or falsehood of the text itself. The implicit argument here is: "Social liberalism is true and righteous, therefore a religious text/tradition that arrives at conclusions contrary to social liberalism is false."

the pope is based
shut up larper

>>24870508
I think it more of a status game. Some cultural Catholics dislike some converts because the converts take the fate more serious than "just be nice".

In my country, something even weirder happened. Catholic laity suddenly started to pray the rosary in droves. Cradle Catholics with a cold faith suddenly injected with this devotion. And this got some Catholic people angry, because those rosary praying people were mostly apolitical rather than fighting for socialism.

Christianity is a fabricated religion. Youre all sheep being herded.

>>24870484
>acting like it’s an either/or
The convert probably understands his faith and its history more.

>>24870541
The plain facts of the matter is that our modern world, basically the entire Postwar Era, IS deeply un-Christian in a fundamental way, and Christianity, including Catholicism, HAS been compromised to a large extent, and subverted, and undermined.

To be a truly faithful Catholic in the modern world is, basically, to support revolution. We need to overthrow it all. American Hegemony, the UN, the EU, all the NGOs, all of it. It all needs to go, peacefully or otherwise, because in ways both great and small it all supports a world order that is not compatible with the Social Kingship of Christ.

A lot of converts seem to realize this, if not overtly then on some subconscious level. It's why they're so edgey. Frankly, I think they're right to be edgy. It's better to know about the problem, and try to work to solve it, than to stick your head in the sand and just be a heckin good person.

At least I think so. I'd rather know the Truth, and be miserable and angry, than live happily in a lie.

>>24867641 (OP)
Thinking this is a "Catholic" specific thing is insane, society is degrading everywhere in general. The Church at some level has a natural function and that depends on in tact social structures to function.
EMJ's stuff covers some specifics but marshall mcluhan and heidegger's stuff is probably the most relevant. That and just aristotle/plato
https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Discourse-on-Thinking.pdf
Pg 43 of this memorial address is a great introductory essay.

Charles taylor and Alisdair Macintyre are the two big catholic authors who have the best understanding of the specifics of this probably.

IMO the main issues are what sort of came in the enlightenment/with modern science and descartes and that general instinct that came about from the printing press. Protestants wanted a basically totally alien view of nature that rejected the ordered creation of medeival times, and Catholics basically completely capitulated to this in the council of trent.
Banning folk practices, enforcing standardized views on everyone, banning astrology, making things explicit remove the local and "pagan" component in a way to seem more respectable to protestants was a big factor.
The black death killing 70-80% of people in every major city and most clergy in particular in 1350 was A HUGE factor no one ever talks about.

But basically Catholic culture got disrupted, enlightenment/scientific views of reality dominated, this became the norm. Eventually all locla/particular cultures were destroyed by the financier class starting with england. There was widescale genocide of Catholic ethnics in ireland, scotland, france, germany, spain, mexico, etc. where they specifically tortured kids to stop speaking their local language to make them subservient to the state. (No one ever talks about htis for some reason)

The social underpinings that orient the Church are totally destroyed, you can't just magically fix the Church in to a large extent functions in the actual context of the world. Is it largely captured by finance, NGOs, and basically is frustrated from actually clearly articulating doctrine (though it still is clear and constant by what is actually protected by the magisterium, contraception is a great example).
How could it be anything else?
If you want it to stop acting retarded, you have to restore order in your own coutnry. Don't be a gay pussy and blame "what mass" there is, that just is not a causal factor at all. This stuff has been going on for centuries way before vatican 2 or the new mass or whatever.

>>24870625
also tl;dr
the past like 4 centuries is basically the total domination of the financial class, in particular jews, who have intentionalyl destroyed all particular cultures to ensure their domination. Traditionalism is basically a psyop to get people to not talk about jews and other factors going on and actually deal with them. Thinking the new mass or vatican 2 is even a significant causal factor at all is legitimately just completely ignorant historically and insane.

>>24870541
>>24870508
>Some cultural Catholics dislike some converts because the converts take the fate more serious than "just be nice".
kek
>converts: no the pope is fake and also the Church is gay now and also you have to say Mass in Latin and also the priest must be facing in this particular direction here read this PDF it explains everything wrong with neo-Augustianism and its malevolent heresies concerning -
>cultural Catholics: Yeah I've been volunteering at the food bank. Idk feels like what Jesus wants us to do
>converts: what are you a fucking LIBERAL
>>24870503
>But they tend to be far better educated in theology than cradle Catholics.
kek again
>converts: look see this sermon by the Archon of Constantinople is clearly referring to a tripartite division and when held against the -- GO AWAY I DON'T WANT TO GIVE TO CHARITY FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING LIBTARD -- anyway when compared to the encyclical proffered by Pope Latinname IXIVIXI one can clearly ascertain the true nature of the --
>cultural Catholics: Yeah I've been volunteering at the food bank. Idk feels like what Jesus wants us to do
Every single time. Never wrong

>>24870625
>>24870630
The old mass had a prayer for perfidious jews, and the church didn't start this propagating this ecumenical "elder brothers of the faith" nonsense about the kews until after Vatican ii. You had mainstream Catholic writers openly discussing the jq well into the 29th century before V2. Jews were behind many of the changes at v2 including Liturgical changes, so clearly they were threatened by it. You can't just act like a gay little faggot slave and dismiss all this as irrelevant. Traditionalism will do more good for the west than reading some German autist.

>>24870687
>29th century
*20th century

>>24870687
im talking about the 1500s i don't give a fuck what bullshit you heard about in a youtube video that was released a year ago

>>24870676
1. That's a Strawman of converts
2. I'm about as much of a cradle Catholic as you could find. I just don't look down on converts

>>24870676
Okay, but are the converts here right or not? Not a Catholic, so I have no stake in a particular side being correct here.

>>24869852
The entire problem with Calvinism is that its logic leads it to some abhorrent places. Calvin was very smart, but the system he comes up with out of his brilliance results in a God that is, frankly, tyrannical. A God who actively wills our committing of sin specifically to damn us to Hell for His own satisfaction.

I think there's a reason so many Christians who become atheists come from various strains of Calvinism. I wouldn't want to worship Calvin's God. The Catholic view of God taking a much more libertarian approach to the governance of human affairs feels more just, to me.

>>24870774
Catholic believe in predestination too.

>>24870803
Catholics believe that God is omniscient, and thus knows everything a human being is going to do for their entire life. This is because God sees all of time in a single glance. But this is not the same as God ACTIVELY WILLING humans to do certain things, including sin. God certainly manipulates the world, and sooner or later His will is always done. But humans have freedom to act. They have free choice of the will. Numerous Doctors of the Church have expounded on this, including both Augustine and Aquinas.

One of the great hallmarks of Who God Is is that there's a lot of things God COULD do, but He CHOOSES not to. God could strip us of our free will and rule us as automatons. But He chooses not to, because God is kind and merciful and benevolent.

>>24870774
Well nowadays the Reformed tradition often solves this by just never mentioning Hell. I was just at a retreat where most of the clergy were reformed and it had a ton of talks and the word Hell or judgement didn't get used a single time. It wasn't all bad, but I did wonder how much of this "you are always worthy," and unconditional self-regard comes from modern psychology. In the old Eastern Hours you praise God for not destroying you in your sleep upon waking and pray things like:

>O spotless, undefiled, incorrupt, immaculate, pure Virgin, Lady Bride of God, who by thy wondrous conceiving hast united God the Word to man, and joined the outcast nature of our race to heavenly things, O only hope of the hopeless, and succour of the embattled, the ready help of them that have recourse to thee, and refuge of all Christians: abhor me not, the sinner, the accursed one, who have altogether made myself unprofitable by shameful thoughts, words, and deeds, and with the heartsease of life's pleasures am become a thrall in mind. But as the Mother of the man-befriending God, do thou, in man-befriending wise, take pity upon me a sinner and prodigal, and receive my supplication, offered thee on unclean lips. And using thy boldness as a mother, entreat thy Son, our Master and Lord, that He may open even unto me the loving compassions of His goodness, and that, overlooking mine innumerable trespasses, He would turn me to repentance, and make me the approved doer of His commandments. And be thou ever with me, as thou art merciful, and compassionate, and the lover of good, being in this life a fervent protectress and help, to defend me from the assaults of adversaries, and guide me unto salvation; and in the hour of my departure, to care for my wretched soul, and drive far from it the dark countenances of evil demons; and in the terrible day of judgment, to deliver me from eternal torment, and show me forth as an heir of the unspeakable glory of thy Son and our God. This be my lot, O my Lady, most holy Theotokos, by thy mediation and help, through the grace and love for man of thine Only-begotten Son, our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ, to Whom is due all glory, honour, and worship, with His Father which is without beginning, and His All-holy and good and life creating Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

>>24870859
You know, this reminds me of a question I've always had. Why do Protestants always attack Marian devotions as some sort of specifically Roman Catholic and later "Medieval" thing when Eastern and Oriental churches have if anything even more prayers to Mary and normally put her where the Cross is in Latin-descended churches, right at the center (Christ as God being in the ceiling; I think the idea is to showcase the Incarnation up front and the deity of Christ when you look up IIRC).

>>24870875
Rhetorics.
It is one thing to attack something only Rome has.
It is another to attack something all the Apostolic churches have.

If they attack Rome only, it feels like Rome is an exception, rather than being the same as all Apostolic churches.

>>24870707
>are the converts here right or not?
the point is that the converts do nothing but bicker over the minutiae of Catholic theology while culturals know that the minutiae aren't really important. like, which matters more, feeding the poor or whether or not the priest is facing the right way
>inb4 no it's very important if we say this phrase vs that phrase in latin vs english in this specific mass when the priest is wearing the -

>>24870903
>cultural Catholics
Statistically speaking, they donate less often to charity than mass-going Catholics.
A lesser knowledge of theology doesn't make you more charitable.
Neither does defaming a group of people you don't know just because they are too conservative for your tastes.

And again, I'm a cradle Catholic.

Also, I wonder if Jesus would be like.
>Nope, no converts. Bloodline Catholics only, please. And no need for piety, just focus on the social part. We are a Bloodline secular NGO now.

>>24870945
when I say "cultural catholics" I don't mean "raised in the faith and left it," I mean "not an adult convert"
>a lesser knowledge of theology doesn't make you more charitable
never said it didn't
>you're defaming
I don't care
>because they're conservative!!
liberals do this too but there's way less liberal adult converts than conservative adult converts, and way way way way less online liberal adult converts than online conservative adult converts, who care less about the faith than they care about looking "heckin BASED" to other anonymous posters online

>>24870993
>I don't care
Very charitable

>>24870903
I am a cradle Catholic. I find that many cradles are actually what you describe, pharisees who go to mass and do the motions for tha culcha and would probably just be agnostic liberals if they weren’t Mexican/Irish/Italian and liked staring at pretty paintings. Many don’t even know you can’t take the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin or truly believe in the presence of Christ’s body and blood within.

Meanwhile most converts I’ve met are typically very intelligent, devoted, and active people who actually show Christ through their works and the way they live their lives. Also they often know way more about Catholicism and church history than I do, and that’s definitely not a bad thing.

>>24870962
>jesus: so you're dead. Catholic, that's good. let's look at your life. what did you do for your fellow man?
>heckin based online catholic anon: I defended the Church! I told everyone everyone everyone the pope was fake and gay!
>jesus: you didn't volunteer at the soup kitchen? organize a donation drive for a charity? dig a well somewhere? did you do anything like that at all? what did you do for your fellow man?
>heckin based online catholic anon: oh oh I made a lot of glitchwave edits of icons interspersed with paintings of crusaders over footage of crying faggots! And I did a lot of posts about how the pope is fake and gay!

>>24871007
>I defamed people because they were too pious and were not bloodline Catholics. I tried my best to make the Church hostile to converts, specially those who disagreed with my liberal politics

Bravo. And I'm a cradle Catholic, my family comes from a region that has been Catholic for over 1,600 years without ever being Protestant or anything else after that

>>24871007
>heckin based online catholic anon: oh oh I made a lot of glitchwave edits of icons interspersed with paintings of crusaders over footage of crying faggots! And I did a lot of posts about how the pope is fake and gay!
Gave me a good laugh. Sometimes these people are so pitifully educated they don't even know about devotions to saints or Mary
t. born Catholic

>no it's really important that we're heckin BASED online because... because... uh...
>I think feeding the poor and things like that is way more important than bickering over whether or not the pope is fake and gay
>FUCKING LIBERAL
Lmfao

>>24871054
You are defaming converts, calling them uncharitable without any evidence and trying to make the Church more hostile to those who genuinely want to convert.
People like you are the kind of people who make people not eager to go to Church.
I wonder what Jesus thinks about people who cause scandal and makes them want to leave the Church.

>>24871061
>trying to make the Church more hostile to those who genuinely want to convert
I don't want converts who are converting because they think the Church is heckin based and heckin trad and not because they genuinely believe it to be true
>inb4 but but but you can't know that what if they
Right, yeah
>dropped the liberal thing
Very funny that when I say "feeding the poor is important" you immediately assume I must be liberal therefore wrong. Literally what I said in >>24870676 . Looks like you realized how fucking stupid you sounded and tried to move on. Log off and go volunteer
>oh yeah oh yeah well why aren't you
I am, my shift starts in about 30 but there's always traffic so I gotta leave now. Homeless shelter in my city. Go ahead and call me liberal and seethe etc, I'll be back in about 4 hours

>>24871088
The complaint about converts always come from liberals who complain they are too conservative. And you have already made those anti-convert posts tons of times here. You are defaming them because of that.

Jesus hang out with publicans and prostitutes to convert them. But you want to exclude people based on their politics by creating a story on your head that they are not being sincere.
Do you think Jesus wants the Church to be hostile to new converts depending on how you feel about their politics?

>I gotta leave now. Homeless shelter in my city

Reminds me of a Bible verse:
>The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity—greedy, dishonest, adulterous—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’

>>24871007
Actually, I believe before anything else, Jesus would ask

>Did you believe that I am Risen?

This is why cultural Catholics are so easy to mock. So many of them are frauds. They treat the Church like some ethnic thing. They don't believe in the Incarnation. They don't believe in the Resurrection. They don't believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

"These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me."

Charity is good, but only if motivated by true Faith. Atheists can do charity, too. We do charity not to pat ourselves on the back, but because Jesus Himself said He would be in the midst of the poor.

It's either all about Jesus Himself or it's worthless.

>>24867671
Do you need somebody else to tell you that those in the Vatican are false shepherds ?

By their fruits you shall know them

>>24871054
To be honest, part of the problem is a disconnect between the needs of the new generation of people raised outside the Church, or very loosely attached to a church in an environment of moralistic therapeutic deism, who come wanting real formation and a deep intellectual alternative to modernity and find churches merely going through the rout motions. I don't really blame parish priests here since they can only do so much on their own, especially as their numbers dwindle. The problem is that people think you can be a secular liberal pursuing worldly goods 95% of your week and a Christian the other 5%, and so mentors for actual formation are few and far between.

Just for example, it's pretty much impossible to be a lay member of an order in most places now because they have dwindled so much. Numbers are deceiving because many people will report a faith on a census even if they have very little to do with it on a day to day basis. I think people have an overly sunny vision of the past as well, that even in the era of Christendom it was perhaps only a third of society who held to strong piety, but today it's probably more like 1%, and so when new people enter the Church doors they are desperate for a life raft but then find it sinking.

>>24871088
Pretty sure we got that you were a lib from the 10 posts seething about Chuds and conservative converts, not from the stuff about the poor.

I have also never experienced what you're talking about except in online spaces. Normally the zealous converts who are into theology are also the ones most into charity and outreach.

>>24871324
That was a pretty good diagnosis. This is the biggest opportunity the Church has had in over a century. Smart, driven young people want to join the Church.
And the frustrating thing is: parts of the hierarchy are fumbling it.

I go to a NO Mass. I love the Charismatic movement. I dont even know where there is the TLM in my region or even if there is one. But many young people like the TLM. And what happens? Boomers go out of their way to persecute them.
They want clarity, they want guidance. And then they see parts of the hierarchy trying to change Church morality in order to please atheist liberals. Or maybe they are sincere and dont believe in Church teaching, which is not much better.

I remember some Irish leader some years ago saying he would rather have no seminarians than to have seminarians who believed in Church teaching on sexuality. Well, his wish was granted and no one wants to be a seminarian in Ireland anymore and their super old priests are overworked.

Let's see how things change from now on. I sense an improvement. Let's pray so that the Pope can be wise.

>>24867641 (OP)
>the recent Popes have been confusing, scandalous and at times simply blasphemous.
Anon, since when has this not been the case?

>Born into happy-clappy ecumenical church
>Didn't even know the TLM existed until adulthood
>Find SSPX chapel short drive away
>Literally moved to tears
>Wtf why was this never talked about, and why would the church go away from this?
>Angry I'd made it as old as I did before discovering TLM and want to learn more about the faith.
>Read a collection of Papal Documents
>Hey wait a minute
>This is incongruous with what I'd been taught previously.
>Get told "No it's not, this is the same thing" from the hierarchy when it's obviously different.
>Also the TLM is evil and we're banning it.
>Flirt with sede stuff.
>"Yeah so some, or all, of the ordinations / consecrations are invalid- and if that's the case there's no hierarchy able to validly elect a True pope"
>????
>Angered by the NO
>Can't just ignore the inconsistencies that have been pointed out
>No tenable or understandable future for as a Sede.
So like, what now????

>>24871463
The SSPX is not Sede.

>>24871464
I never claimed they were.

>>24867641 (OP)
>Books I'm planning to read

>>24870625
>Protestants wanted a basically totally alien view of nature that rejected the ordered creation of medeival times
Elaborate

>>24871505
It's complicated but this is a understood difference between Catholic views of reality & islamic and protestant.
The general category it falls under is 'analogia entis' or the analogy of being. You'll see a bunch of people talking about this still and thomists bring it up but it's removed from the medeival context. The idea there is basically through interacting with created things through the analogy of understanding their effects we can understand their cause, ie God to an extent.
This is why we built gothic cathedrals Chesterton has a good short essay on them that captures the vibe.
https://www.online-literature.com/chesterton/alarms-and-discursions/1/
It's again just the idea everything created is at root God and in a way particularly reveals something about God.
In medieval times this was expressed through hierarchically ordered reality, things like the outer spheres which were moved by angels (Benedict Ashley still defends this) and impacting us through astrology was just kind of common sense. It was used for everything and was just part of their worldview, as it was for the greeks.
This also extends toward the national variation/litrugical vairation. Each particular people express their being in their own way so it's okay to have liturgical or even theological variation expressed in different ways. Folk saints, folk traditions were just okay. The desire for absolute clarity on everything was something that basically came about after the death of medieval culture w/ the black plague and the technological shifts like the printing press.
Protestants attacked Catholics for being superstitious because of the lack of clarity on certain things and their tolerance of the folk traditions. (Because of the sort of more abstract universal worldview the printing press/enlightenment/scientific revolution kind of created there was a demand for this, there really just wasn't before)
The whole "witch" thing and attacking them only came about after protestants because Catholics were basically fine with folk practices, they may have not been like huge fans but it wasn't a problem. St. Albert the Great (doctor of the Church) himself talks about carving sigils of planets into clay and using it to channel the power of the planets. All medicine used astrology/sigils.

Basically Catholics totally gave into this "Universalist/scientific" culture Protestantism came from and rejected the medieval worldview.
Again a huge part of this was like active intentional genocide of Catholic cultures that occurred in nearly every fucking country and no one ever talks about it or cares. It was specifically establishing universal rule over things basically so banks could do usury and control everyone.

The actual end of the "universal intelligibility" is just bankers destroying every culture and that's where we all now. The attitudinal shift the counter reformation was basically just giving in totally to that. (not that it's doctrinally wrong)

>>24871592
Cont.
As I said before the key thing is this isn't really a Catholic specific thing. This is a general historical trend that has actually occurred before.
Heidegger's analysis of the Greek view of aletheia going to the roman verum also fits the general attitude quite well I think. Mcluhan attributed that greek shift to the phonetic alphabet destroying oral culture and it seems like the printing press/cheap paper basically did the same thing in europe around ~1500
We are now coming to the end of that failed imperial shift. It would kind of just be silly to expect the Church to be functioning well.

>>24871592
>It's again just the idea everything created is at root God
Huh?

>>24871592
>Protestantism came from and rejected the medieval worldview.

What did they reject specifically?

>>24871592
>St. Albert the Great (doctor of the Church) himself talks about carving sigils of planets into clay and using it to channel the power of the planets. All medicine used astrology/sigils.

this sounds like tiktok girls with their crystals and astrology


my inclination is to be dismissive, because I can't make any real sense of anything you just said except that protestantism bad because they reject the medieval worldview, which is apparently in your opinion an embrace of superstition, but also one of science and worldly reality.

hope you post more because i'm generally interested

>>24871950
i reread, and has misinterpreted what you said about the scientific worldview.

how do you compare this with the catholic church today affirming evolution, with most protestants being in favor of a creationist point of view?

>>24870568
What religion isnt a fabricated religion

>>24867641 (OP)
> Rama P. Coomaraswamy
lol

Despite my pessimism about Leo I am willing to continue giving him a shot. He is the Pope, after all. And he seems, at least, less dramatically absurd than Francis was.

>>24871943
>Huh?
rooted in, typo. this is just normal thomism.
>What did they reject specifically?
That good and beautiful things in creation can reveal an aspect of God to us. For them like muslims causliaty is largely disconnected from God and basically any regular cause we see is basically just a matter of God doing it directly.
This comes from their rejection of Aristotle/greek philosophy, and again basically trying to set up some deterministic scheme where you can say what "everything" is and measure everything by.

>>24871954
It's not being pro or anti science, that's why I recommend reading heidegger/mcluhan this stuff isn't really understandable from a "Catholic" theological perspective or something because it's not a theological issue.
The issue is having a fundamental stance towards reality that everything should be systematized and ordered and anything that cannot fit into that system doesn't exist or is evil. Heidegger calls this the technological attitude. Mcluhan considers it something that arises from the printing press partly it's a combination of both.
It's not anti-science it's anti science as "the only arbitor of what's valuable" or any arbiter of that.

This is a position some authors have talked about, the radical orthodoxy people like pickenstock's after writing. Any actual medieval history will touch on this. This is something modern theologians talk about but I haven't read much modern stuff but most of them don't go all the way.
Fr. Benedict Ashley was a thomist I'm a big fan of who explicitly argues we can know through natural reason that planets are moved by angels as the medievals and aristotle argued and those arguments still hold, which I quite like he was rather unafraid to state true things clearly. Any serious medievalist will be aware of this and touch on it to an extent.

I actually got into it reading about the history of public education and how it was basically always used to oppress local cultures and folk traditions.
>which is apparently in your opinion an embrace of superstition
Traditional cultures that had traditions that were rooted in their particular place, language, people, etc were the norm for like all of human history. It wasn't an embrace of superstition but rather a rejection of "organizing everything into an absolute system" the clergy wasn't necessarily a fan of some of the stuff people did or even much of it, but they did find some of it quite good and didn't have the means or interest to destroy everything else.

If all of human culture until like now functioned on that stuff, the Church functioned with it happily using astrology regularly basically up until the 18th century including by doctors of the Church... Then we get rid of it... and things go to shit?

>>24872108

It happened at the same time as those Catholic ethnics being genocided, protestants were accusing Catholics of being superstitious then torturing their kids to get them to stop using the language. It's just part of this same technological instinct where everything most be extracted and subjected to this totalizing system and anything that does not fit in it is destroyed.

I think the easiest way to look at this is linguistically. These were the languages before the french revolution. They explicitly and intentionally destroyed them including genociding the Catholics in the vendee as a way of asserting one dominant culture and ensuring they don't have rebel groups pop up. It's the same thing the prussians did to Catholics, and the english did to the highland scot catholics. That started as far back as like 1608 and even arguably back to the late 14th century in ireland.

The point is more, if you allow particular individual cultures. GRANT that "Hey I won't understand all of this or be able to systematize it, and that's fine." you will get that spooky/weird folk stuff that people cringe at now, That stuff just comes up and the only way you squash it is by straight up destroying cultures. There has been an instinct to do that going quite far back to the end of the medieval period, but different technological shifts made it far easier (printing press caused the reformation, telegram/railway caused the national suppression of local cultures in a more final way, ww1 and ww2 mass war was used to destroy any local sovereign countries) and now we are all basically just dominated by financiers.
That is how the will to universalize and have abstract systems running everything ends up and how it always ends up.

Catholicism just structurally, having local priests and bishops who can evaluate what's functioning in that culture or not is just kind of adequate like, the system makes sense.
But hey we've destroyed all those cultures, and now everything is retarded and dysfunctional and ran by banks.

How to actually get out this is a separate question (i think there are good answers to it) but as to why is the Church like it is? Like are you kidding me? We are in a techno dystopia and have basically just been raped by tyrants for over a century Most of this language destruction was fairly recent. only after the telegram/railway was it really effective around the time of the civil war. So yeah the Church isn't going to be great. You are in a dystopia, you've had your culture destroyed and robbed, you are poisoned, you are raped, you are constantly being degraded and this applies to like everyone alive now. How the hell do you expect anyone to do anything reasonable?
Is our ability to even reason not rooted in our having a culture and place and people that orients us? How could it be otherwise?

>>24871416
I go to a NO Mass. I love the Charismatic movement. I dont even know where there is the TLM in my region or even if there is one.
You are not Catholic.

>>24868550
>he DID topple the Soviet Union without firing a shot
Delusional.

>>24872108
>>24872110
You put into words what I didn't think to express. The main reason I have been attracted to the Bible were the mannerisms, customs and behaviors of ancient man. I knew that the root of the solution is connected to ancient/medieval man. Theology is secondary for today's issues, the issues are sociological and metaphysical, eroding of what makes man a man. No Christian I have met has ever recognized this issue. Only some New Age types could grasp the issue somewhat in a corrupted manner. Strangely, Hideo Kojima mentioned the problem of eroding language, culture and people extensively in Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain. Despite being a leftist faggot, he could tell what the problem of modernity is, only through his twisted lense.

Thank you and God bless you for your posts. You put things succinctly and into layman's terms what Guénon refused to do. Guénon chipped at it but from a purely metaphysical context and "objective" attitude. He left out the psychological and sociological core out entirely, maybe on purpose, maybe because he was a mathematician and couldn't conceive of them as relevant in his highly systematized approach.

>>24872110
What book do you recommend by Heidegger?

>>24872153
memorial address is a good intro
https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Discourse-on-Thinking.pdf
Pg 43 here it's 10 pages and is a public speech.
Going deeper I'd just get a collection of his essays and read some of the short ones, some are just public speeches he gave I have no idea why people normally recommend 600 page books to start.
Question Concerning Technology, What is Metaphysics, The essence of truth are relevant. What is called Thinking is a book of his that I think goes into it quite well.

Gabriel Marcel also talks about similar things and I find him clearer but people also argue about his language. He's a Catholic Existentialist he has his Man against Mass Society book

>>24872148
thanks... now i need to play phantom pain again to remember all the stuff with language in that.

>>24872145
That's something I find quite interesting with Catholics. Obviously JPII was a celeb as big as Michael Jackson at the time and he certainly played a role in the agitation of nationalist attitudes that eventually knocked down the USSR, but I really don't see where all the "JPII beat Communism!" Stuff comes from outside of patriotic poles.
t.Aussie Catholic who grew up under Benedict

>>24872191
He prevented the Soviets from cracking down on Solidarity by declaring he'd throw his full weight behind it, and even if necessary go to Poland to face the crackdown himself. It prevented the Soviets from stopping it as it grew in power, and it basically started to unravel the unity of the Warsaw Pact, at a time when everything else was also going wrong for the Soviets.

Can someone give me advice with regards to my faith? I’ve been considering fully converting to Christianity for a while now because I do genuinely believe in God, but I’ve never felt compelled to go to church each Sunday because I don’t feel like I’d fit in. Also, even though I’ve prayed in private and visit churches in private, I feel as though God doesn’t always listen to me when I ask for help, especially when I ended up suffering some life trauma when I asked for His protection. Lastly, I struggle with labelling myself as a Christian because I don’t go to church despite my beliefs and I’m also really sex obsessed, which I feel like is just part of who I am, so I’d feel like a fraud if I fully called myself Christian. I’m also highly suspicious of the fire and brimstone interpretation of Christianity. For reference, I grew up in a secular household that believed God existed, but didn’t practice religion.

Is there any advice you’d give or literature you’d recommend to help me make sense of all of this? It feels strange to have faith, but feel as though my life is incompatible with aspects of the faith.

>>24872220
It should be a step by step thing.
Read a little bit more, start going to Mass (but don't go to communion until you are ready), eventually talk to a good priest.
Other than by a miracle, you are not becoming an 80 years old Discalced Carmelite monk overnight.

What kind of book do you want?
Fundamentals of faith or something about spirituality and practice?

>>24871463
Holy Orthodoxy or the Eastern Rite churches in communion with Rome?

>>24872484
I guess something to help me figure out if this is for me or a vain pursuit. I don’t doubt God’s love, but I feel like I wouldn’t be welcome in traditional faith circles because my relationship with God is complicated. I guess perspectives from someone who wrestled and struggled with figuring out their spirituality, but still sought meaning in God would help.

I need to know its is valid to identify as Christian when I’m not a model Christian and probably never will be.

>>24872110
>and the english did to the highland scot catholics
Lmao at tradcucks not understanding scottish history
The Scots highlanders were not "based catholics", the vast majority were episcopalian protestants, not catholics, and gaelic was never wiped out by the english. Lowland scots had been suppressing the gaelic language since before the reformation

>>24872538
If you believe in God deeply and don't have any doubts about God's love for you, this is a pretty easy situation.
Just love God back. Other than some old monks and nuns, nobody is a "perfect Christian".

I don't know if you agree with me, but I think devotional literature would help you. Saint Francis of Sales' "Introduction to the Devout Life" is a classic guide for laypeople. If you are more theoretically minded and don't want anything devotional, there is Garrigou Lagrange's "The 3 Ages of Interior Life", which is a masterpiece.
(By the way, neither of them are sedes or anything of the kind, they are older than this discussion, they are just orthodox good theologians that ALL Catholics should admire, traditional or not). Francis is a Doctor of the Church. I hope Garrigou one day is declared.

In regards to chastity, both of those authors treat it. The why and the how. That said, easier said than done and you will eventually fight it. And I hope you will win.

If you are more literarily minded, "En Route" by Huysmans is great. There are some long winded descriptions of things and places but the spiritual part of the book is amazing and the protagonist has the same chastity issues you have.

>>24872554
im sorry you've been lied to. The first actual official policy for using public schools to destroy a language was on the highland scot clans. It at the time the english speaking lowland scots who were basically dominated by english culture, but it continued through to the clearances when it was explicitly highlanders fighting for the Catholic monarch against the parliment bought out by bankers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_Establishment_Act_1616
>'Inglis' be universally established, and Gaelic be obliterated because it is a main cause for the barbarity and incivility of the people of the Isles and Highlands.
>Protestantism be everywhere fostered and promoted.
Just like in ireland children were tortured for speaking gaelic and there was a centuries long campaign to destroy their culture. Modern day scottish people are so fucking cucked they refuse to accept this happened though, it's truly pathetic.

There was some conversion among the highlanders but there was still a substantial portion that were Catholic, and they didn't really care about what religion people were. Within the same clan you'd have different variations. Western highlander clans in particular were basically largely Catholic though. (these are the ones the acts originally targeted) The lowland scots were were basically pseudo-english were the ones who enforced it. The destruction of the language and forced education was in part motivated to finally get rid of it among the highlanders

>>24872220
Conviction for one's own sins expands over time. Pray. It is also good to pray the words of the saintly that they might become yours over time, even if you just pray and abbreviated morning and compline service.

And pray Psalm 50 (51 in most Western Bibles) every morning and evening at least (this is said quietly by the priest at every mass, in fragment in the West and in whole in the East). Or don't. There is no formal recipe. But participating in the Liturgy of the Hours is one way to participate in the life of the Church and to become conformed to it. I will warn though that the Eastern version is really too long for lay people outside the small compline service, but the Western one is quite doable without modifications.

Or try going to a retreat at a monastery if there is one near you, since their rule will give you an example.

Or for some people, particularly those who have a problem quieting their mind, the Rosary or a prayer rope and the Jesus Prayer help. I also find having a prayer list to be very helpful, because when I pray for others I am reminded of my own sins and shortcomings but also of God's love, so I have people I pray for every night, as well as larger groups and events.

But these are just things that have worked for me. I think the biggest thing is just sticking with a prayer rule and having it be frequent, throughout the day, but short enough to manage. I do find having a bit of a ritual for my longer night prayer is helpful. I have two small icons of Christ and the Blessed Virgin, some candles, and incense, and the prostrations help center me, but I don't always use them. With young kids, this can be particularly challenging (although it is also good to set a good example; I have had my three year old once sit through the entire 25 minute small compline service).

>>24873104
BTW, I am part of an NO Western Church. IDK what a priest would say about mixing rites for the Liturgy of the Hours. Mine had done the Eastern Rite in seminary and liked it and seemed to think it was fine. There are certain things I really like about it (the dedication of each day of the week is much clearer) and other things I don't (it is too long to do often, even if you skip the kathismas), so I use the Western Hours more often.

>>24870840
>sees all of time in a single glance.
Did you also watch that christian guy on the streets? Forgot his name. Nice fellow.

>>24873080
Presbyterian Walter Scott did more to preserve Scottish culture than the highland chiefs ever did.

>>24873182
No one even knows the name of the gaelic poets
the scottish are a completely raped people im sorry brother.
James macpherson and ossian stuff rooted in actual gaelic was what actually created the world wide affection for scottish culture that was a significant part of romnaticism and even that is largely forgotten now. Napoleon and Thomas Jefferson and Walter Scott were all largely inspired by that.

You can't seperate a people from their language.

>>24869715
>>24869708
>he only opposes the numerous errors and semi-Modernism of the post-Conciliar Popes and concludes they are no true Pope at all.
How is this not just Pride, arrogance, hubris and sin to think you can interpret god's will more than the head of the church?

>>24874185
There are 3 opinions of Vatican II:

>It should be interpreted as being in continuity with perennial Church teaching and is not a break
I'm of this opinion

>It was a break and this is bad
Sedes and some traditionalist groups

>it was a break and this is good
Progressive Catholics

Opposition to Papal policies is more or less common in the history of Catholicism. We have had anti-Popes, for example.

In the case of Benedict XVI, it was an interesting thing. He was a "moderate liberal" (sorry for the political analogy) in the Church, but he saw the progressive wing growing increasingly more unhinged and had to discipline them when he was the Head of the DDF. So, later when he became the Pope, progressive Catholics more or less opposed him (and some continued to keep his books blacklisted in seminaries). Interestingly, Sedes and some Trads don't like him either because he was a "moderate liberal" (or not that moderate in the beginning of his career).

>>24869708
>>24868358
You haven't read Luther.

>>24869935
>What seems to me white, I will believe black if the hierarchical Church so defines.
>The obedient man should permit himself to be moved and directed by Divine Providence through the agency of his superior just as though he were a dead body which allows itself to be moved and handled in any way whatsoever, or as an old man’s staff which serves him who holds it in his hand wherever and in whatever way he wills.
/thread

>>24867641 (OP)
>What books should one read to understand this, and what the answer to this crisis is?

To be honest with you, the answer is to reject the Papacy and become a true Orthodox Christian.

For start, read about the false union of Florence.
>The History of the Council of Florence by Ivan N. Ostroumoff

Then you can read this book by a french ex-catholic clergyman who became disillusioned with Vatican I, was an old catholic for a period and then joined the Orthodox Church.
>The Papacy by Abbe Vladimir Guette

Now we are getting into the 20th century, the era of ecumenism, the first step of implementing this heresy was through the adoption of the gregorian calendar, the following book will explain how that calendar was both condemned by pan-Orthodox Councils and is scientifically inferior.
>The Calendar Question by Fr Basile Sakkas

The following book approaches different issues of ecumenism in the 20th century.
>Against false union by Alexander Kalomiros

Now the final one, a collection of patristic and contemporary true Orthodox witnesses in the face of heresy.
>The History of Resistance: From the Apostles to the Twentieth Century by Subdeacon Nektarios Harrison

Unrelated to the thread but I also happen to have a /lit/ discord server where we have a theology channel as well. https://discord.gg/gKyXEsef

This thread makes me think Catholics are totally insane and much of their theology is based on extrabiblical philosophical thought.

>>24874615
>totally insane

No, we're the sanest people in the modern world. It's all the rest of you guys who have gone nuts.

>>24874664
so, essentially what you're saying is "you're mad and you're not like us?"

if only i had started with the geeks and progressed to heidegger, i'd have found God!

>>24873080
>im sorry you've been lied to. The first actual official policy for using public schools to destroy a language was on the highland scot clans. It at the time the english speaking lowland scots who were basically dominated by english culture, but it continued through to the clearances when it was explicitly highlanders fighting for the Catholic monarch against the parliment bought out by bankers.
No it wasn't you retard.
>DUDE 1616
When James the 1st, the scottish king ruled both kingdoms?
The Gentlemen adventurers of Fife were sent to colonise the gaelic western isles in the 1500s before the crowns of England and Scotland were unified
>Just like in ireland children were tortured for speaking gaelic and there was a centuries long campaign to destroy their culture. Modern day scottish people are so fucking cucked they refuse to accept this happened though, it's truly pathetic.
Irish children were never tortured for speaking gaelic LMAO.
>There was some conversion among the highlanders but there was still a substantial portion that were Catholic, and they didn't really care about what religion people were. Within the same clan you'd have different variations. Western highlander clans in particular were basically largely Catholic though. (these are the ones the acts originally targeted) The lowland scots were were basically pseudo-english were the ones who enforced it. The destruction of the language and forced education was in part motivated to finally get rid of it among the highlanders
Most highlanders were protestants. Catholics were a minority within the highlands by the time of the last jacobite rebellion. the Lowlander's weren't "controlled by the english" or "pretending to be english", they were descendents of Anglic, brittonic, dutch, german and flemish people who had always hated the highlanders. But unfortunately you tradcucks like destroying scotland's native lowland culture and embracing the gaelic ethnoLARP
>>24873190
>their language
Scots, a germanic language is the national language of scotland. Gaelic is just as "foreign" as scots as it came from irish invaders in the 5th century.

>>24870774
>I wouldn't want to
>... feels more just to me
Well isn't this the problem? You're making it about yourself and what you wish to believe rather than what is actually true. "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." Amos 3:6, Isaiah 45:7, Proverbs 16:4

>>24874778
>When James the 1st, the scottish king ruled both kingdoms?
Yes, from london, where he lived. The nobility in general was very involved with the english prior to that as well.
>Irish children were never tortured for speaking gaelic LMAO.
This is actually common among the origins of all public schools, it wasn't just irish it also occurred in the US, france, and prussia. Beating and publicly humiliating children and alienating them from their parents was normal and is part of cultural homogenization. Confiscating folk instruments, even punishing certain types of folk dance and singing was just normal. This isn't seriously historically disputed at all.
And just in terms of the language family, yes lowlanders speaking germanic languages and them anglicizing so they could participate in the english economy was the case. It was the elite financial class who advocated for union and pushed anglicizing stuff and people rioted about it when it originally happened.

I think looking at this in terms of language family as an extension of trade and nobility networks is honestly much easier. Scotland as a single thing is sort of a anachronistic. You have anglos, birttonic celts and gaelic celts. Brittonic ones are still functioning in wales but gaelic ones are largely wiped out, due to the intentional actions of the anglo.

>>24874778
All of western europe (including spain/france, celtic people went all the way to greece even alexander fought them) spoke celtic languages until the romans. The national borders aren't actually the clearest metric the western scots/eastern irish, welsh and brythonic celts in northern france were actually kind of a semi-consistent group genetically because the water trade (easier to go by boat then travel by land). So "Scottish" people even as a general descriptor isn't really historical, eastern scottish people were brythonic celts, then gaelic celts (in most places), then germanic/anglo linguistically and to get the benefits from that tried to undermine the western highland culture.
South eastern england had easier trade with the germans and that's where english came from quite a bit later.

This kind of touches on the issue you are pointing at yes the issues were coming from the "inner scottish" stuff but linguistically those people had already been linguistically brought into the anglo/germanic world, and just had an incentive to destroy the people in their area who undermined their ability to function economically in that world.

The idea the dal riata kingdom was invaders is just completely baseless historically. It was rooted in the pre-existing trade that existed among those people and there's no evidence there was ever like a transition in the populations there.

All of western europe was almost exclusively celtic for millenia, including all of england.

>>24871054
>the first gamer pope gets into arguments with alt right twitter users with anime profile pics
Pope Pius XIII 2 is going to be dabbing and flossing and posting skibidi rizz memes.

>>24874810
It does also happen to be the official Catholic position. Augustine has a legendary dialogue called "On Free Choice of the Will" that is exactly what it sounds like.

>>24867641 (OP)
>he recent Popes have been confusing, scandalous and at times simply blasphemous
Papal infallibility chud

>>24872110
How is this any different from the Catholics squashing down heresies over the years, particularly the Albigensians?

>>24874832
he also thinks it's limited to recent popes, kek