Why did it pretty much die out? Everyone who's driven the old Citroens that have it says it gives modern suspension a run for its money. Considering how many modern cars ride like absolute shit, why not bring it back? It would probably sell like hotcakes.

>>28453156 (OP)
They're that great until you need someone to change them. They're expensive as hell and not every workshop can change them.

>Unreliablematic suspension

>>28453156 (OP)
Cost

>>28453156 (OP)
that is a gorgeous car

>>28453156 (OP)
Normgroids don't actually care about ride comfort. See all the shitty boneshaker cars out there.

>>28453160
>>28453235
The one from the last version of the C5 seemed reliable enough.

>>28453156 (OP)
Modern car buyers, Americans in particular, want "sporty" and "grounded to the ground", which means everything down to the poorfag economy cars needs to have a super stiff suspension. Combine that with the ultra low profile tires because those economy cars now "need" 19 and 20 inch wheels to look "appealing" (with SUVs getting 22s and 24s), and you've got a bunch of modern cars that all ride like shit.
Floaty and comfortable isn't appreciated in the modern day unless you're looking at ultra-luxury cars or top trim, air suspension equipped $100k luxury trucks. Most normies have never even been in either of those.

>>28453247
Probably this. Also systems got too complex.
The BMC hydrolastic was ingeniously simple, probably the cheapest.
Citroen/W123/124/129/140 hydraulic suspension was pretty simple, same with the Rolls Royce. Basically just keep the fluid changed once per decade and replace spheres as you would replace normal shocks. Spheres are cheap, just a ball with rubber diaphragm holding back nitrogen.
More modern shit like airmatic is pretty complicated in comparison with electronic control, anti-dive, etc.
Regular people probably cant tell the difference and theres a constant race to the bottom so it gets axed.
Merc and RR also had licensing arrangements with Citroen and those deals probably cost money and expired.

>>28453381
Wouldn't hydropneumatic suspension be simpler on a modern car? Whereas on cars like the DX and SM the system handled basically everything on the car, on a modern one you'd just use standard components for most things and only use it for the suspension itself.

>>28453387
I have no firsthand experience w the citroen but its pretty dang simple on the mercedes iteration.
A pump constantly pushes fluid to the hydraulic rams, a proportioning valve linked to the height of the suspension modulates the pressure/ride height to keep the car level. Inline pressurized nitrogen spheres are the shocks that dampen the flow. Overflow fluid is sent back in a return line to the reservoir.
The Hydrolastic system is even simpler, no pump, and it links the front and rear wheel on each side.
Today people or manufacturers want height control, anti-dive, firmer/softer damping.
Having a whole new type of system probably scares off mechanics and increases maintenance costs.
Would be neat to have a modern car with hydro but now that Citroen has killed it off its just not gonna happen.

>>28453371
this is cope. stiffly sprung (aka high natural frequency) and low ride height have only a small amount of effect on ride quality. things like bushings and their materials, geometry, relative f/r frequency, shock dyno curve, anti lift/dive have way more perceptible effects on quality. you can have a softly sprung car that still rides like shit (most american cars back in the day) and vice versa. e39 bimmer is unironically a great case study for a stiffly sprung car with excellent comfort. I do agree that oems aren't putting in the effort or money to hit both targets these days especially with rubberband tires.

>>28453407
Fuck rubberband tires.
Tires are the OG hydraulic suspension.
Gimme some thick sidewalls.

>>28453160
>>28453297
Its not bad, but the problem remains
>French makes a car with a system
>French car 2 uses the same idea, but none of the parts
>French car 3 similar
>French car 4.... system is entirely discontinued
And
>Car needs 2-4 overhauls of said suspension in its lifetime + dry rot
>And failure renders the car to be towed
Pneumatic and hydrolastic share this flaw. Both also share the problem with brake jobs, where you need to bottom out and drain the system, which is annoying if t he car isn't designed to be serviced either.

>>28453403
On the DS it was hooked into ALL the hydraulics on the car, including the power steering, gearbox actuators, headlight swivels, and the brakes. Then they gradually separated the systems out, and on the C6 and final gen C5 it only controlled the suspension iirc, like it did in the Mercs.
The first versions were all mechanical but they gradually added more computer control, like the C6 actively scanned the road surface ahead to prepare the suspension to absorb imperfections in advance, and the moose test meme Xantia Activa even got computer-controlled anti-roll bars.

>>28453407
Not a cope, it's how vehicles manufactured with Americans in mind have been made for decades. I loved how my E39 528i rode - but it sat on smaller wheels and rode on a chassis that is now 30 years old. It's essentially a classic car now.
Take a look at any modern Mazda3, Camry, Altima or similar and look at the suspensions and "rims" available on those instead. Car buyers want stiff and "sporty", so they give it to them. It's why even economy commuter appliance cars are riced out from the factory now.
https://youtu.be/4TotV_9L--Q

>>28453556
205/60-16 is rubber band? Those are on brand new Corollas.

>>28453593
If you buy highest end trim, you usually get +1 or +2 or even +3 rim size.
Tesla is one of the few where the mid end option(Long Range) is on smaller rims than the standard.

>>28453422
we've come full circle, pneumatic tyres being made because solid steel or wood wheels absolutely sucked to ride on. and now we're demanding rubberbands that give similar ride quality to solid rubber tyres

>>28453556
I take issue with your statement because again sporty suspensions aren't the issue here. normies don't know what a sporty suspension that rides well is even supposed to feel like. so they don't spend the money if customers are easily fooled. you also have to account for the fact that in cabin vibration is the main determinant for how fast a car "feels" so they add some back in so the car doesn't feel numb to drive. another issue I've noticed is that everything has progressive springs now, which have this uncanny feeling that they're almost bottoming out when they're not even close to the end of their travel, and ride quality suffers compared to long travel linear springs.

>>28453600
I am 100% sure if you bought the higher trim, the dealer would have zero problem swapping those for the base level set at no cost.

>>28453156 (OP)
Probably can't pass some retarded safety tests because comfy = le bad handling
The activa system definitely could but those are quite complicated and expensive
>>28453160
>>28453235
Actually simple and reliable as fuck in the later cars where they got it all figured out. You just need a mechanic that's familiar with the system and you won't have any issues. The only wear items are the fluid and spheres. Spheres can simply be screwed on and off, you can literally do this yourselves at home. Fluid, just empty the reservoir, clean the metal mesh filters and refill with fresh fluid. Like once a decade...

>>28453156 (OP)
not helped by the fact that people didn't use the proper fluid. iirc many people just used brake fluid which led to further problems

>>28453556
>it's how vehicles manufactured with Americans in mind have been made for decades.
Kek late C4 Corvettes were known for their softer and softer ride. The last one came out 6 or 7 years before this video, and Clarkson is bullshitting his audience in it as usual.

>>28453297
Yeah, they are good. But also costly and... We're kind of poor in France.
>>28453443
Don't forget you can also get sea-sick with them with old models like the CX, they're also heavier than regular suspensions. And you actually have to find a mechanic that can handle these things and follow the maintenance, else shit is gonna hit the fan. Finally since the system is discontinued since 2015, pieces for them will become harder to find and be more expensive, 60€ for 2 spheres for an Xantia, not counting the mechanic work if you don't DIY. I own an classic car and budget can burn quickly.
>>28453872
Mechanics that are familiar with the system are becoming more rare, but yeah you can DIY and use the proper fluid that cost 10€. Overall if you don't fuck it up, this suspension will last you long. This is actually the good shit for croozers.

>>28453964
There's still a lot of Citroën specialists that'll work on the hydropneumatics here in the Netherlands. Multiple of them within a 100km drive for me. I guess because they were popular here. I would actually reckon getting work done on a C5 or C6 might be harder because they're not quite oldtimers yet but regular shops don't know what to do with 'em. The Xantia is just the same as all the previous hydropneumatic cars.

€60 for a set ain't too bad on something that'll last you for years. Comparable, or even cheaper, in price to replacing springs or shocks on a regular car I would say.

So far it sounds like it's literally just Stellantis bean-counters ruining everything

>>28453787
The most interesting detail about the car market is that the new purchases is a very small portion of it..
This worked out fine when the meta was 195/65/15 on the shitbox, and maybe 17 on 225/45/17 with very fancy rims.

Now anything SUV has hideously low profile tires.

Too expensive basically. Same reason why Honda dropped 4ws. 4ws is back on German cars but those companies didn't develop their own systems they came from suppliers, I think Continental or Bosch or whoever. Developing your own in-house special snowflake system is too expensive for everyone outside of China, so cars all unique features are disapperaing, outside of what can be assembled from kit parts from those suppliers.

>>28453156 (OP)
I've driven a W222 S-class with the base air suspension and a Citreon C5 X7 with the hydropneumatic. Generally speaking, the W222 was better but not by much.

The C5 really is like driving a waterbed, there is alot of secondary motions with bumps. You hear the initial impact and the whole body moves around softly and settles slowly. There's also more rolling/pitching with braking/accel. While i'm personally totally fine with that for a luxobarge, If you're used to spring cars it's a very different experience. Citroen enthusiasts shit on the X7 C5 as its apparently much stiffer compared to previous Citroens so I'm keen to try older ones. If that is the least extreme Citroen then the others must be incredible.

The W222 basically ignores bumps, you hear them but don't feel them. There is very little secondary motion like the Citroen. The only time i felt the Citreon was better was with larger bumps like speed bumps. I don't know whether it actually compensated for the larger bumps better or it was just the fact there was so much body motion generally that the larger bump blended in more, whereas the Mercedes it just felt like the suspension suddenly stopped working. Naturally, the W222 completely blew the C5 out of the water with NVH, interior and powertrain.

C5 is still amazing value for what it is. But fact is most road disturbances are not speed bump sized and if you can get close to hydropneumatic with just air suspension then thats good enough. The latest gen of german barges actually addresses this shortcoming by combining air suspension with high voltage electromechanical/electrohydraulic actuators and predictive cameras.

>>28455111
Back in the '90s you had a fair number of companies offering 4WS on select models.

Bump, because I haven't read the whole thread yet, and i want to :)

>>28457765

>>28453156 (OP)

Air ride suspension accomplishes basically the same result while being cheaper and less complicated. Also most mechanics don't know much about working on hydraulic systems any more since they've largely been replaced by electric motors.

>>28457922
The advantage with hydropneumatic is that it retains the same spring rate at any ride height. Run bags low and they're too soft.

>>28453981
You are totally right, McDonalds springs cost 80€ on average.

>>28455083
Anyone with a brain buying new should ask if the large wheels on whatever trim they select can be swapped for the base model. You're not going to feel the 0.2% faster steering from having 2 inches of extra metal, you WILL feel the absolutely dogshit shock absorbtion. Choice on my CX-60 was 18in or 20in. The lower trims ride SIGNIFICANTLY better than the higher ones. It's stupid.

>>28457952
It also has the advantage that it's fail-open. If the system fails, the ride height is automatically locked at the highest setting. With bags, if they fail, your ride ends up looking like a cholo wagon.