Thread 507922959

>baptised catholic but raised without religion. Basically a deist/agnostic
>hear about orthodoxy from Luke Smith
>eventually decide to go to a Divine Liturgy
>awed by the church artwork
>I'm a pasty white mf, only one of a few non-Greeks in the church
>get a warm welcome like the prodigal son anyways
>start reading the bible, praying, studying church history
>feels like every aspect of my life has improved, less anxious, more at peace, etc. Don't feel lustful urges as much
>start to become less concerned about politics and material affairs

Was the solution really in front of me the whole time? I'm starting to feel like I'm entering a different world and different way of seeing everything.

Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Hebrews 13:5 KJVAAE


If a Christian who falls away from the faith goes to hell, then that Christian has been forsaken. That's the biggest, and one of the only, problem I have with Orthodoxy.

>>507922959 (OP)
>becoming religous late
assuming you are not in your +60s (hence turning in religion because you are closer to death)
it looks like you are having a nervous breakdown, talk with a professional

>>507922959 (OP)
If it has had that much of a positive change in your life, then keep at it. I am looking at going back to church for the first time in over 15 years, and I want to do it right and open my mind to everything. Orthodoxy is the only church that makes logical sense.

based
I got my wife and children baptised in the Orthodox church this year
do it, brother

>>507922959 (OP)
I am baptized Orthodox, though from a German family, and I haven't been to church in too long. I want to go back, but to a real (Orthodox) church, where true spiritual nourishment can be found.
Protestantism is dead inside. The Catholic Church has potential but has too many problems. Orthodox is your best bet.

>>507923596
My understanding of it so far is that theosis is something that is really up to God, and that there's no way to truly tell his will until after death

>>507924406
I'm 26. Feels like the opposite of a mental breakdown. Post flag.

>>507924444
Thank you, fren. Good luck.

>>507922959 (OP)
>Don't feel lustful urges as much
castrate yourself christcuck, you won't feel any "evil" urges at all

>>507924868
In the story of King Saul, Saul is a man who has clearly fallen away from the faith. When he speaks to the ghost of the Prophet Samuel, Samuel tells Saul that he and his sons will be with Samuel after they die.

because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Am´alek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day. Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
1 Samuel 28:18-19 KJVAAE

>>507922959 (OP)
>start to become less concerned about politics and material affairs
So you're taking the blue pill to cope with life. God isn't real, heaven doesn't exist. Your blood and soil are real.

>>507924840
My family is mostly catholic and I love catholics, but I have too many contentions with the church. Namely the lack of accountability for kid diddling, Frances saying Europe needs to open the floodgates, papal supremacy, and indulgences

As for protestants, they did accurately point out some of those issues, but the rejection of tradition turned me away, as well as conflating iconography with idolatry. I want aesthetics, insense, and something challenging.

>>507922959 (OP)
Orthodoxy for me has been the unironic final solution for everything.

Unlike insane protestant cults and Catholicism, Orthodoxy actually makes sense.
>>507923596
Why would it be any other way? Salvation isn't an event that happens to you, it's the state of being in communion with the living God. How could that be fulfilled if you willingly reject Him?

>>507925503
His ways are not our ways. To accept that someone who falls away "loses their salvation", you would have to address
1) God breaking the seal, which is never claimed in Scripture.
2) God forsake the Christian, which is the opposite of what is said in Scripture.

And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30 KJVAAE

>>507925143
I thought pagans like Varg abhorred porn and promiscuity as much as the Christians?
>>507925260
I'm still fundamentally a supporter of nationalism. I plan on marrying a white woman and having white kids. I just don't care about what trump said about the somethingoranother.
>>507925503
I shit you not, my great great grandma was friends with Mary Baker Eddie so my grandma was raised in the Christian "science" movement until she marroed my catholic grandpa.

>>507925824
So you believe in once saved, always saved?

BTW It sounds like an insane hair splitting hill to die on. What protestant sect are you apart of?

Quoting scripture in and of itself is not an argument unfortunately, I can't fixate on one sentence without any context.

>>507925862
>christian science
Brutal.

Protestant cults like that fuck people up and turn them away from God and it's a massive tragedy.

My priest once said that he understands why some people aren't Christian if all they've been exposed to is that kind of thing.

Are you baptized yet friend?

>>507924868
>I'm 26
that's the average age bipolar disorder kicks in.
>Feels like the opposite of a mental breakdown
no one feels it the first time
>Post flag
nope, but i will tell you this, I'm baptized

>>507926548
>baptized
But are you Christian?

Thinking someone to be mentally ill for finding Christ before they are 60 is the most insane take I've ever heard. You might be the one who is bipolar.

>>507926282
It's not hairsplitting, it's simple Soteriology. There are only a few categories, and that is one along with Eschatology, Ecclesiology, Christology, Theology Proper. I have read all the Saints who died before 200 A.D. Only 1 or 2 explicitly deny Once Saved Always saved. One was Justin Martyr, who also believed Premillennialism (which you and I would call heresy). I suppose I am non-denominational.

>>507926432
I've had a Catholic baptism and my understanding of it is that since it's a trinitarian baptism, it won't be necessicary to be baptised again.
>>507926548
"You had a religious experience and now your HAPPIER?! Must be a mental breakdown."

That sounds like something a redditor would say.

>>507926763
>is the most insane take I've ever heard
is it now? this is the most insane take you ever read on 4chan? really?
>You might be the one who is bipolar.
i might be, you might be father Bill

>>507926548
>seeking truth in the sick, twisted kiked world is.... le mental disorder!

>>507922959 (OP)

I love how pol schizos go picking religion based on pol recommendation threads, akin to "yo niggas was da most based movie and vidya i should binge on rn fr"

Fuckin SICK. Also, orthos are - and this is a fact - the only muslim-approved branch of Christianity.

Bye bye!

>>507927013
Have you become a Catechuman yet?
If you are Catholic depending on your bishop it's likely you will be Chrismated.
You can push to be baptized if you want though.
>>507926843
Can you name some sources for all these saints that believe that?
It's a belief that makes no sense to me, and no historical church or council affirmed it.

What precisely does once saved always saved even mean to you? Can I go back to fornicating after I get baptized and be good? Or is it that if I did that I was never saved?

To me it just makes infinitely more sense that salvation is an eternal process of becoming closer to God, and you can absolutely throw it away (see Judas)
>>507927414
>doesn't understand hyperbole
My bad pimp, you might just be autistic.

>>507927594
At least it isn't a Jew approved branch of Christianity

>>507925824
>God breaking the seal
>God forsake the Christian
If YOU somehow "fall away", how is it God who has broken anything or forsaken you, you utter mong?
How could a man of genuine faith and repentance ever truly just "fall away"? Perhaps it is more that your faith and repentance were not really there.

>>507927580
it's a major change in personality, out of nowhere, he did not experienced a "miracle" or anything. i would say the same thing for any major change in ones personality
keep seeking the truth my niggas, I'm big on Neo

>>507927975
St. Justin Martyr plainly says something like "those who fall away will lose Salvation" and St. Irenaeus, and St. Theophilus of Antioch are in my notes with some passages I marked as "possibly works salvation".

Once Saved Always Saved means it is not by works, because in the alternative model, you must work to keep it.

>>507928226
The Holy Ghost seals us unto the day of redemption. What is the Scripture that says I have the power to break the Seal? And any Christian who ends up in hell is forsaken. No matter what semantics you want to play.

>>507922959 (OP)
I don't think it's possible to change your spiritual life by simply changing the rite. Both Catholics and the Orthodox follow Jesus Christ, that's pretty much enough, both churches have their good and bad people, the same goes for practices and so on. You can be a bad Christian within Orthodoxy and a good one as a Catholic and vise versa. You may convert and regret about your choice for your whole life, so think very carefully.

>>507924406
As in a catholic priest. Hersey is a serious matter.

>>507928480
A Christian is someone who has genuine faith and genuinely repents. You cannot just "fall away" if you have these things in your heart, you total retard. If you find that you've just "fallen away" somehow, I've got news for you: your faith was never there.

>>507927975
I'm not fully set yet to become a chatechist. I want to think carefully about this commitment.

>>507928240
I'm still the same person, but I just feel better, more complete. I'm not foaming at the mouth and speaking in tongues and shaking people to hear the word of God like some televangelist.

>>507928797
You don't sound like much of a Christian at all, with your irrational anger. I already used the example of King Saul to anchor my beliefs to the Word >>507925175

>>507922959 (OP)
Any christian denomination is fine. Shop around and see what church you feel comfortable in.
Orthodox is fine. Just stay out of tranny loving churches. They are not christian.

Note: Mormon and Jehovah's Witness are not Christian.

I'm afraid of walking in a church and seeing the faggot flag

>>507928979
All protestant denominations are pozzed

>>507928979
Not quite the case that any denomination is “fine”. There’s a big difference between the fundamentals of Catholicism and Orthodoxy to, say, Baptist or Methodist. Some are outright wrong; one is correct.

>>507929235
Ah yes, the fundamentals of Catholicism. With it's strict top-down structure that ensure no corrup-ACK

>>507922959 (OP)
>get a warm welcome like the prodigal son anyways
cults generally love-bomb to start with yes
>baptised catholic but raised without religion. Basically a deist/agnostic
really you're no different from a hippie in the 60s/70s picking up buddhism as the end-all be-all solution or a weeb thinking japan must be like his animes; your only interest in this religion is that you don't know anything about it

>>507928240
>he did not experienced a "miracle" or anything
A sinner that repents is the greatest miracle.

>>507928353
Okay, it sounds like the saints you've mentioned are more on the side of the Orthodox position on salvation.

I guess I just don't see the dichotomy between faith and works.

Faith leads to works. Works are evidence of faith. Works like almsgiving and fasting can help your faith.

What does the ontological state of salvation mean to you? The Orthodox Church defines it in terms of Theosis or being in communion with God.
>>507928869
That's fully understandable, it's a massive commitment. Along the journey the grace you feel now goes away when God decides it's time for meat and not milk and that shit sucked worse than anything else I've ever gone through, but it's part of the program.

I pray God reveals the path to you though friend.

>>507928899
Your 'eternal security' nonsense is highly disgraceful to me as it flies straight in the face of numerous NT teachings about authentic faith, repentance, and our responsibility to abide in Christ. It mostly hinges on prooftexting.

>>507929589
Thank you. G'night

>>507929477
Who in the Orthodox church hurt you?

>>507922959 (OP)
can I help you at all? I don't want to ask if you have questions because I really am no authority to answer them. All I know is I went through a similar thing as you did, just like parishes all over the country are experiencing with waves of people coming to the Church. I was baptized (and chrismated) on Great and Holy Saturday.

>>507929589
I believe that a child can be saved. And a child does not know all things, even close to all things, and has virtually no works, if any. And if so, then God will not leave them or forsake them, even if they are sifted by Satan. I believe St. Peter was saved before he was converted.
>but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
>Luke 22:32 KJVAAE
Because Jesus said that to him after He said this
>And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
>Matthew 16:17-18 KJVAAE

>>507928899
Also, using the fucking Saul narrative to justify your "once saved, always saved" horseshit? Seriously? That's weak as fuck seeing as it’s a narrative, not a doctrinal passage. It lacks any real teaching on salvation let alone your belief of eternal security.
It's literally about God’s judgment on Saul’s disobedience, not his eternal destiny which it leaves highly ambiguous. It doesn’t contradict all the NT warnings about perseverance in faith.

>>507929686
"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." - St. Clement of Rome

>>507927594
>the only muslim-approved branch of Christianity
yeah that's why Decani monastery has a 24/7 guard in Kosovo.
and there were headlines literally this month about Egypt making political moves to annex St Catherine's monastery at the foot of Mount Sinai.
Not to mention this whole thing that happened within the last few months:
https://youtube.com/shorts/FmMJSUReLvw

>>507927594
>the only muslim-approved branch of Christianity.
get a load of this papist...

>>507928530
Systems can set you up for success or failure. Roman Catholics are set up for failure, their "church" doesn't take the spiritual life seriously, doesn't instruct them to fast, etc.
I honestly don't think you understand the significance in the difference of theology, either. The truth is the truth, and both can't be right.

>>507928630
he might get sexually assaulted if he's in the same room with a roman catholic priest

>>507930333
Read your quote again idiot.
>but by that faith through which Almighty God has justified all men
A man's faith is not some kind of momentary choice that is eternally secured from that point on. It is something that you are commanded to persevere in until the day you depart this world. Your justification is subject to this persevering faith.

>>507929326
One of Jesus’ disciples literally sent him to his death. Thus, the idea that the actions from a few misguided priests invalidate the original Christian denomination is absurd and you are room temperature IQ if you think otherwise.

>>507930142
No one denies that a child can be saved. Salvation is not predicated on knowledge, but by communion with God, and children have the same ability for that as any of us, even from birth.

I don't know about St. Peter being saved before he was converted. I think that denies his free will.

A common Orthodox saying is that the difference between St. Peter and Judas is that St. Peter repented after denying Christ.
>>507930333
Neither the Orthodox or Catholics believe that we are saved solely by our works.

The Grace of God is what saves us. But we have to freely choose to participate in that Grace, and just as we can choose to participate in it, we can choose not to.

I think being fixated on this issue in the way you are presenting it leads to the same kind of logical end as universalism, which is:
If you are saved, why struggle, why repent?

What is your position on free will?

What's the difference anyway? Besides the fact that one church is covered in marble, while the other is covered in wood? The pastors are either homos or ex-kgb plants
What's the difference in beliefs? What makes orthodoxy "correct"? Why not iconoclasts or dualists?

>Worshipping a jew as told to you by other jews
Ngmi

>>507931156
The difference is it's obscure so christlarpers can pretend it's based

>>507931045
According to the Scripture, Judas repented (Matthew 27:3-5). According to St. Papias, his suicide was a failure and he wandered around depressed, diseased, and with eyes so swollen he could no longer see. But he repented.
>O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
>Psalm 136:1 KJVAAE

>>507931156
it's really very simple but people make it more complicated that it is. If you are intellectually minded, you can just look at the history of the Church and see who broke away from who, and who practiced in such a way as to how the early Church Fathers described. If you do this, there are really only 3 options: roman catholics, Orthodox, and non-chalcedonians. Given the non-chalcedonians define themselves by rejecting the Church, and the roman catholics don't at all resemble how the early Christians practiced as well as leaving the church and changing their beliefs at a specific time and place in history for specific reasons a 5 minute wikipedia article viewing can teach you, the answer is clear.

or if you aren't intellectually minded, just go to Church and see the difference for yourself. I think if everyone went to 3 Roman Catholic parishes at random and 3 Orthodox parishes at random, they would not even need a history lesson or a theological argument as to who is right.

>>507931080
Both the Bible and the Saints clearly teach Free Will. If you say that St. Peter was not saved when Jesus said "thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.", that doesn't seem right.

>>507922959 (OP)
you fell for the psyop. total abrahamoid death

>>507931466
Judas kind of acknowleging his sinful actions and showing some contrition is not the same as him having faith and repenting. Have you read the NT properly?

Hey man, a little Jesus goes a long way.
Christ be with you/

>>507931778
It doesn't say he "acknowledged his sinful actions", it says he "repented".

>>507931883
Give the line which says "he had faith and repented" or anything like that involving "faith" and "repentance". Go ahead, i will wait.

>>507931466
Ok great, what’s your point and how is it at all relevant to the crux of the discussion?

>but muh scripture
Prots at it again, completely missing the point at every single opportunity

>>507931156
>why is it correct
The ultimate answer to this is Christ, but you can't answer a question like that in a post, as for the other things you mentioned.
Iconoclasm is a denial of the Logos. It's more complicated obviously, but that's the end result.
Dualism is retarded with any serious understanding of metaphysics.
>>507931162
The religion of the Rabbinic Jews is the explicit denial of Jesus. How could they be of the same religion? That's retarded.
>>507931466
Being sorry for your sins is not repentance, at least according to the Orthodox.
Repentance is best shown in the story of the prodigal son, he first had a change of heart (metanoia) and then (and equally important) he got up and walked back to the Father.
>>507931883
The bible literally does not say that he repented. He never once asked God for forgiveness and fell into despair.
>>507931672
If Free Will exists, why couldn't I choose to walk away from Christ? If I can choose that, how am I still saved.
It's not so much that we are saved or not saved anyways, it's more like this common Orthodox response to the protestant question of "are you saved"
>I was saved yesterday, I am being saved today, and I pray that I will be saved tomorrow

>>507922959 (OP)
You fuckers are so cringe it's unreal. You can't just choose a denomination based on fee fees like someone studying their horoscope. You should have theological grounding to your beliefs.

>>507932439
No one is talking about jewsus's religion when he is called a jew
Retard

>>507932181
>give a line not in the Scriptures
What sharp rhetoric. Let me try. Show me the line that says "except Judas"
>And they went out, and preached that men should repent. And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.
>Mark 6:12-13 KJVAAE

>>507932505
he doesn't know

>>507932439
>I was saved yesterday, I am being saved today, and I pray that I will be saved tomorrow
Lutheran here. Stealing this one though.

>>507932523
>2025
>still worshiping jews

>>507932588
>it says he "repented"
Your words, not mine. Show me where it says he repented. Again, I'll wait.

I tried a Russian Orthodox Church. The sermon basically berated people for not coming early to pray before the service. It was pretty based

>>507924868
I refreshed this on my phone and read a little. There is a lot of evil in this thread looking to dissuade your from your choice. Seeing this, I made the decision to visit my local Orthodox church soon. Thanks Anon.

>>507932856
Lord have mercy and help you

>>507922959 (OP)
Fuck off Jew worshipper

>>507932744
Uh, you mean the very post you responded to where I gave the verse?
>>507931466

>>507922959 (OP)
i'm not buying into the whole jesus business anymore, but orthodox would be the prefered conversion, and could be useful for western civilation at large

>>507932950
Post the verse then, I will wait.
Again, according to you, it will say that Judas repented.

>>507932920
>Le demons!

>>507932439
>If Free Will exists, why couldn't I choose to walk away from Christ?
That isnt the argument. The argument is if walking away from Christ means you will be left and forsaken — in hell.
>Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
>Hebrews 13:5 KJVAAE

>>507933035
you are the same "australian" that seethes in every Orthodox thread.

>>507933033
Why are you intentionally convoluting the thread by repeatedly asking me to give a verse, when I gave it the first time I posted? I gave the verse numbers anyway. It's childish at best, and bad faith at worst.
>Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
>Matthew 27:3-5 KJVAAE

>>507932364

Shit like this is what's stopping me from becoming a true Orthodox Christian. Why are they doing their best to be good goys? Just like the Bulgarian Orthodox Church during WWII - they insisted that we don't send our filthy kikes to Germany, which in turn saved 40k Jews (from the Holohoax, that didn't happen). The fact of the matter is that they were opposed to the idea of killing the Jews. Whether or not the Jews would've been killed is not important, the issue is that the Orthodox Church in Bulgaria was against sending the kikes to Germany. I will gladly become a follower to any denomination that openly hates the Jews. I know that Martin Luther was basically as close to being /ourguy/ as he could be for his time, but the current Protestant Christianity is just too pozzed. The same goes for Catholicism and Orthodoxy. The only religion that is openly against the kikes is Islam, but I'd rather die instead of becoming a Mudslim.

>>507933115
>I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Read it carefully, idiot.
Notice how it doesn't say that YOU can never leave or forsake Christ. If you have faith (which includes repentance), Christ will never leave or reject you. Which is in stark contrast to YOU or any other worldly bullshit which can change at any moment and stray from Christ for whatever reason.
This isn't a lesson in "eternal security", it's a lesson in how those who are genuinely faithful can always trust in Christ.

>>507933311
All Christians are the same. They all worship the same Jew
>>507933311
>will gladly become a follower to any denomination that openly hates the Jews
How the fuck do you expect people who worship a Jew to hate Jews?

>>507933706
>GOD: I will never leave thee nor forsake thee
>you: just because you're in hell doesn't mean you've been forsaken!
Madness.

>>507933302
KJV mistranslation of the Greek.
Repentance is always 'μετάνοια' in the NT.
What the KJV translates as 'repent' here is actually 'μεταμέλλομαι', which is 'worldly sorrow', i.e. not repentence. Mostother translations correctly render this as 'regret'.

>>507932655
Lutherans are the closest to being honorary Orthodox.
You guys just decided to effectively remove the Filioque from the Nicene Creed, that's based.
>>507932505
You should understand theology, but it's not a requisite to salvation.
OP just tried living the spiritual life and saw the fruits, how is that muh fee fees?
>>507933115
If you walk away from Christ, and stay that way, why should you expect to be with Christ in heaven?
God in his mercy will do what he wills, but to just assume that I can walk away from Christ and engage in sin without repentance and die and still be saved is insane.

It's a simple logic here, either the above is true, and I can in fact be saved despite choosing to essentially not be, or you are not correctly interpreting scripture.
>>507933302
That greek word in that passage can also mean regret or remorse, and with the rest of the context and the writing of the saints it makes more sense that he simply regretted his actions but did not repent.
The KJV is not the greatest English translation unfortunately. Most thought for thought translations interpret it as "remorse"
>>507933859
That is in fact true. Some saints have said that the flames of hell are actually the love of God, which feels like fire to sinners.

>>507933859
>what?! I didn't know that if you don't have (persevering) faith, you're probably going to hell because, well, yiu didn't actually have faith
Profoundly stupid.

>>507934147
Let me rephrase "just because you are in Hades*"

>>507930613
that last picture is the funniest shit ever i cant believe ive never seen it till now

>>507934147
>Lutherans are the closest to being honorary Orthodox.
And I consider you guys as the closest to being honorary Lutherans.
The faith I see in the many Orthodox Christians is genuinely inspiring and humbling.

>>507934143
>>507934147
As far as I know, the Greek word (μετάνοια), in all of it's forms, means to change your mind 180°. To dissect it is semantics.

>>507933311
first you must understand this...

>>507933311
>>507934825
... and reconcile it with this...

>>507933311
>>507934883
..to comprehend the significance of this, and the spiritual healing it brings.

>>507934308
In that case, God didn't forsake anyone in Hades because when Christ rested in the tomb he preached to all the souls in Hades and raised everyone who believed in him.

However the same rules apply with Free Will, anyone still left in Hades after that point is now awaiting final judgement because of their choice.

If you are looking for biblical support for the pillaging of Hades, one verse is 1st Peter 4:6
>>507934598
Words have meanings, and ancient Greek words especially don't really have one definition in English. It's like translating Logos to Word. Sure that's not incorrect, but there is more to it than that.

That word you mentioned in particular has always been understood to be essentially repentance.

It's literal meaning is a change in vision, like you said. That's exactly what repentance is, to realize your fallen state and turn 180 degrees away from sin and back to Christ.
It's the word used in the parable of the prodigal son, where in the filth of the pig pen he had a change of vision, back to the Father.

>>507934598
And that's exactly what genuine repentance is: a total turning away from sin; a complete (and true) change of heart. Hence why the word is used consistently throughout the NT and why it isn't used when referring to what Judas experienced in Matthew 27:3. He did not find faith in Christ, did not repent and that is likely why he felt 'worldly sorrow', fell into despair, and then killed himself.

There are some issues with Eastern Orthodoxy.
>They are reluctant to establish doctrine especially in response to modern issues like contraception, and in regard to theology they don’t explain much of what God is, preferring to rely on mystery even when Jesus Christ is very open about who He is, “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6). This is most alarmingly seen in their reluctant hesitancy to promulgate a Catechism which could accurately and authoritatively describe Eastern Orthodox Doctrine and the reason for this is because if one bishop or autocephalous Church makes an authoritative move on doctrine, he or they will be seen and accused of trying to be the Pope.
>The office of the Papacy is clearly defined in Holy Writ (Matthew 16:18) and provides a supreme unity for the Church. It allows the Church to move in one direction without having to consult every constituent part thereof which - even if they all agree - would be extremely tedious and this obedience thereto allows conformity of doctrine in a changing world in issues such as abortion which was permitted by the Russian Orthodox Church during the famines under Communism.
>Individual churches have the tendency to form ethnic enclaves exclusive to outsiders and even if they are tolerant of them, the Eastern Orthodox Church is extremely reluctant to form new autocephalous Churches in the West or elsewhere because they would rather consolidate power within the historic, established Churches. The Orthodox Church of America is not recognised by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.
>If you love the liturgy of Eastern Orthodox churches, go to an Eastern Catholic church. They share the same Byzantine Rite liturgy, and even the liturgies of the Alexandrian, West and East Syriac, and Armenian Rites as well, and they’re very often in English.

>>507934598
Look, memeflaggot, I've got to go, but you must forgive my brash and discourteous posts on these matters, but I consider it vitally important to make sure that fellow Christians do not walk around with beliefs that may result in their damnation in the end.
Persevere in faith and repent daily. Always examine yourself to make sure that your faith is genuine and you are not straying from Christ.

>>507935688
Roman Catholics can't come into any space and make arguments, as if their reputation doesn't precede them. Argument becomes worthless if everyone sees you as a hypocrite, listening to catholic radio and hearing one thing but reading in the news another, then going to an actual roman catholic mass and experiencing extreme dissonance between what they hear the "top" roman catholics say.

For us, you're just not living in the reality of the first millennium. Picrelated.

>>507935688
Catholics are too focused on the rational mind rather than the divine intellect (nous).
It's true that unironically very few things are considered dogmatic by the Orthodox. Essentially dogma is contained within the Ecumenical councils.
I have never experienced ethnic hostility in person, and even then what's wrong with having a church that's filled with your ethnic group? Sounds based and nationalistic.
The Orthodox Church of America is not recognized as Autocephalous by the EP, but that doesn't mean they aren't recognized as Orthodox. They are fully in communion with the EP.

If the centralization of power is so great why do tradcaths have to inject, boof, snort and huff copium to survive the cognitive dissonance that is Vatican I and II, not to mention the last pope.

>>507932830
Nice. Gotta keep discipline.

>>507935389
>In that case, God didn't forsake anyone in Hades because when Christ rested in the tomb he preached to all the souls in Hades and raised everyone who believed in him.
And how does this disprove my position?
>>507935389
>>507935459
The difference in these words, as far as I know, is Repent, and Repented. Eisegesis has led you to assign to them entirely different meanings. Can you prove otherwise?

>>507922959 (OP)
I have been Orthodox for three years. Chrismated in June 2022. It is a tough journey but rewarding beyond belief. Go for it. God bless.

If you become Orthodox, you have to do kettlebell exercises, and perform calisthenics/running outside in the winter.

>>507924406
>turning in religion because you are closer to death

Boomers are less religious than zoomers.

>>507936766
None of the Church fathers nor any historical Church believes that Judas is saved. It's really that simple. In fact, I'm not even aware of any protestant Church that believes Judas was saved.

They are two entirely different words. English translations are retarded sometimes, and this is a perfect example.

It's absolutely insane to think Judas is saved.
Once saved, always saved, is one of many such cases where protestants interpret scripture without the context of a Tradition
Using Occam's razor, the one likely reading into scripture is not 2000 years of Christians, but you, the one with the wildly diverging view on Judas's salvation.

The rest of the context of that verse is pretty clear that Judas was remorseful for his actions. The preceding context where Jesus says it would be better if Judas was not born, also clearly indicates the fate of Judas.

>>507936510
We’ve had bad popes as you have bad bishops. Need I remind you the reason for Nicaea II, the 7th Ecumenical Council?

>>507937872
Like I said, I have read all the writings of the Saints that died before 200 A.D. I am currently in book 4 of Against Heresies. According to my notes, there are 0 mentions of Judas being in hell. There is mention of Judas repenting, and many verses that say something similiar to this:
>O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
>Psalm 136:1 KJVAAE

Unironically, this seems like the best place to ask, because asking someplace dedicated to whatever church will only get me bullshit.

I grew up Protestant, and really as soon as I was old enough to make my own decisions, I stopped going to church.

I still have faith, but I disliked every church I went to, and 80% of the people there. In hindsight I probably should've just attended Sunday school, or found a bible study group or something. I was after spirital guidance and learning, not singing along with a slideshow for an hour, and hearing some guy try to be relatable for an hour.

I've figured that my experience is more or less the typical Protestant experience. I've happened across a couple Baptist churches that were kind of based, but still more about praising the lord just to feel good, rather than learning or guidance.

I feel stuck with Protestantism, because on paper I agree with it more than Catholicism. I can't reconcile praying to Mary, or putting people in between me and the lord, as if Christ wasn't enough. I think that the Catholic church is a romantic idea for me for the wrong reasons, I like the culture, the structure, that kind of thing. Having a hierarchy of politicians (catholic clergy) isn't something I can get over, though. I can't remember the last time I had anything positive to say about the pope.

I don't really know where to go. Orthodoxy is attractive for the same reasons the Catholic church in general is attractive, but as far as I can tell has the same issues. I think what I really want is a Protestant church that takes its religion seriously, if there is such a thing, but I don't know.

Does Orthodoxy suffer from Mary worship, clergy as middlemen between you and God, and church politics the way that Catholicism in general does? I'm tired of being passively Christian.

>>507924406
>a nervous breakdown
if you're having a nervous breakdown you feel worse, not better, retard

>>507937872
>Once saved, always saved, is one of many such cases where protestants interpret scripture without the context of a Tradition
Protestantism is degenerate. They were right to point out failings in Catholic practice, but the Catholics already knew all of that. There is not a single Protestant idea that the Catholics didn't already think of. The Catholic Church's failing was in living up to what they already knew. But that doesn't make Protestantism right.

>>507938438
Praying for you, brother.

>>507938916
I appreciate it. Thank you.

>>507938438
>Does Orthodoxy suffer from Mary worship,
No one worships Mary. Catholics do have some weird stuff like naming her "Comediatrix of Grace" but that comes from trying to rationalize literally everything. Regardless, the word the Orthodox use for icons and saints is venerate, which means to pay the proper respect to. Respect for holy things is something that's lost on our modern culture unfortunately.

Why is it so wrong to think the Mother of God is holy?

Regardless, I empathize, I had a similar block but when you enter the Church you really start to understand just how holy the Mother of God really is.

The saints are a similar issue. It's not that you are putting people in between you and God, it's more that the saints are next to you worshiping God. The bible says the saints are alive in Christ. You presumably ask even normal people you know for help and prayer? So what's so wrong with asking the holiest people who ever lived for help and prayer?
>clergy as middlemen between you and God,
Confession is important. However I will say that it's not the priest that absolves you of sin, it's Christ. In the sacrament of confession you are confessing your sins to Christ with the priest as a witness.
>and church politics the way that Catholicism in general does?
The Orthodox have a synodal model of Church governance, which is that Orthodoxy is a collection of independent churches in communion with one another. Each church is headed by one bishop, who leads a synod (council) of bishops. The bishops vote on decisions. The head bishop is the tie breaker essentially. This extends to the hierarchy of churches. Right now the EP of Constantinople is the tie breaker if the head bishops of the churches form a synod (like in the ecumenical councils)

The benefit of this compared to Roman Catholicism is that if the EP decides to become a gay heretic, the other churches will simply break communion with him and carry on, because they are independent.

>>507938438
You should just learn more about what the early Church Fathers believed.
Roman Catholics have turned the Most Holy Theotokos into a sort of goddess, and they have weird Sacred Heart cults. This is not original Christianity.
But the Holy Mother of the Church is the Saint of Saints. She is literally the most holy "normal" human being to ever live. Why would you not want her as your hero?
Saints are as ancient as the Church. God is the God of the living, not the dead, etc.

But really you should just go to an Orthodox Church. A lot of protestant misconceptions about not preaching about Jesus enough or whatever are quickly swept aside when you see what an original Christian Liturgy is actually like.

https://youtu.be/9yQE73uByDo

>>507938438
The answers are for the local flavour of Orthodoxy, your holy mileage may vary.
>Does Orthodoxy suffer from Mary worship
No, she is just a caretaker figure.
>clergy as middlemen between you and God
Extremely frowned upon.
>and church politics the way that Catholicism in general does?
It's a Church, of course there's politics. Usually smaller temples and churches do not involve any outsiders though.

>>507938438
>>507939350
Really though, the best way to discern Orthodoxy is to just go to Divine Liturgy.

No amount of understanding makes up for worshiping God.

I've been considering it for over a year now and do already consider myself a Christian. I pray and read scripture somewhat regularly.
I just haven't gotten off my ass and actually gone to an Orthodox church yet since the nearest one is about 90 miles from me.

>>507938293
You do you my guy, I think you are wrong though, and potentially dangerously so.

>>507922959 (OP)
yeah, it's the real christianity, and you can feel it

>>507939565
bro email the nearest few jurisdictions and ask them to send a priest out to you occasionally. That's how missions start. Especially since every Orthodox parish in the country is exploding, we are needing to start building more and soon.

>>507939565
just say "im interested in orthodoxy but I'm too far away, can you put me in contact with a priest who can visit me to answer my questions and maybe start catechism since im so far away" etc

>>507939706
Well here is among the first to explicitly say Judas is in hell. Is tampering with Christology more or less dangerous?

>>507922959 (OP)
I think I will begome ordodoggz...
No English churches here though...
All the websites are in hieroglyphics and moon runes

>>507922959 (OP)
I still don't get how worhipping a joo can solve your problems

>>507922959 (OP)
>>start to become less concerned about politics and material affairs
Why do you make it sound like religion is some sort of drug?

>>507938438
>can't have anyone between me and God
Then you will never find spiritual guidance, or anyone who takes it more seriously than you already do, which is hardly at all.

Following Jesus Christ means worshipping a man who says he is God, who says that if you have seen him, you have seen the Father. God did not have to become a man, but he did. He did not have to create children who depend on parents, or women who depend on men, or men who lead other men, or angels to watch over and intercede for men, including his own human nature, but he did. He did not have to choose disciples, and send them out, but he did. He did not have to create anything, but he did. He did not have to dwell in human beings, but he did. If you want to find God, go to the temple, do not complain that God chooses to dwell there. St. Paul saw Christ in person, and Christ told him to go to the bishop and receive baptism. It's in the Bible, which Protestants claim to believe, but do not. You either believe these things or you don't.

Every single thing in life is designed to teach you that this is how things are made and how they are supposed to work. You deal with people who are above you and yet are not God in every other single aspect of your life without complaining or even noticing. You are not going to escape this through any amount of "spiritual growth."

Everyone who wants "direct access" to God and refuses to accept any intermediaries will worship the devil, and the devil will teach them to worship themselves as God. Only then will they find what they are looking for, which is total spiritual death.

>>507928226
>if you have any doubts you must not be a true Christian!

>>507941602
>Every single thing in life is designed to teach you that this is how things are made and how they are supposed to work. You deal with people who are above you and yet are not God in every other single aspect of your life without complaining or even noticing. You are not going to escape this through any amount of "spiritual growth."
>Everyone who wants "direct access" to God and refuses to accept any intermediaries will worship the devil, and the devil will teach them to worship themselves as God. Only then will they find what they are looking for, which is total spiritual death.
Very well said
Insisting on having only a one-on-one relationship with God does lead to self-worship. The Bible is clear we should worship in a community (as the apostles did) and that there are church elders who are more learned than the laity.

>>507922959 (OP)
Islam is better but I like Orthodox, I rank it #2

>>507923596
>for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Doesnt mean what you think it means.

>>507925824
>someone who falls away "loses their salvation",
Nope. See prodigal son. God did not forsaken him and turned his heart to see the errors of his ways.

>>507922959 (OP)
I'm lutheran (LCMS) and have been inquiring for about 3 months now. It's pretty good. I think I had finally had my fill with derivative non-denominational/restorationist/baptist churches but there weren't any active, uncucked Lutheran churches in my town. I'm going to an OCA parish so everyone speaks English and the community is great and welcoming.

>>507936510
If the EP recognized OCA, it'd become the largest and most powerful church in Orthodoxy overnight, and the EP has too much to lose here granting autocephaly.
>>507935688
I can't become a roman catholic because the more I study church history it shows that the Bishop of Rome as a universal or supreme bishop has no historical basis in the first millennium.

It's very clear that the pentarchy being 4 churches in the east and 1 church in the west with minimal contact due to geographic distance resulted in power swelling in the Rome-centric west while the other four all equally counterbalanced one another. Tack on how the Roman Empire collapsed in the west resulting in the Papal States while the East always had a Roman Emperor until they were all conquered by Muslims, it just makes logical sense why the Papacy ended the way it did, but not for any Biblically or theologically justifiable reasons.

Eastern Catholicism just seems even more absurd when it exposes that the Roman Catholics don't care about anything except the acknowledgement of the Pope as supreme. You can larp as an Orthodox, do the Eastern Rite, say the Nicene Creed without the Filioque (as it is written in marble on the walls of the Vatican), teach against purgatory, deliver the eucharist into mouth and it isn't a problem so long as you acknowledge the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. Theology doesn't matter to them. Geopolitical influence is the only thing they care about, and the Papacy is at this point too big to fail. They'll never humble themselves.

I posted this on /his/ once but it felt like an adequate response to your post.

>>507931692
such a great psyop that caused jewish persecution for two millennia

>>507942930
>>507943124
If a Christian goes to the Lake of Fire, that means they have been forsaken. There is no getting around it. God said He will never leave or forsake a Christian, therefore a Christian cannot end up in the Lake of Fire.

>>507933311
Literally all Christendom, be it Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant, was antisemitic in ancient times. Why? Because scripture itself is extremely antisemitic. Beware the modern false preachers, just dedicate yourself to the Gospel.

>>507922959 (OP)
>aesthetics nigger believing fake shit due to politics
absolutely brain fried

>>507938438
Honestly it sounds like your path should be that of trying to become a saint. Obviously that's a very lofty goal, but saints must undergo an incredible amount of personal sacrifice, monastic study, and commitment to God in their lives. I don't think you're going to find that level of commitment just anywhere in public churches, especially not today which is arguable the beginning of the End Times. I would just commit yourself to daily prayers, reading scripture and all of the works of the ancient saints (there's a lot to read). Do that while trusting the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and forget all of the labels of the churches until you have a deeper understanding.

t. raised Protestant, became Catholic, now follow the Orthodox Church

>>507922959 (OP)
Go to the traditional Latin Mass. Dont throw away your birthright and Christ’s church for an ethnic larp that you will tire of https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p8m8Fq8eKXI

>>507924406
I really hope you find the truth man. You have no Idea what you're missing. Just try looking up some NDE, or some testimonies.
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
>>507925143
Christ Is the answer, I used to come here daily for that filth. I'm completely free from It now. Christ delivered me from my additions.

>>507943694
>He that seeketh his life shall lose it. He that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Christianity forbids politics first

>>507938438
Still lurking.
Just wanted to say thank you all for the replies.
I clearly have a lot of studying to do.

>>507944741
>don't throw your birthright to one larp, throw it away for another larp

I'm sorry, anon, but one can't be saved by whoosh whoosh ancient words I can't understand. The excitement and awe of an Orthodox or Catholic mass will fade with time as you attend for the nth time, but what actually matters is the theology and community.
It is sad that the Catholics want to throw away their liturgy though for V*tican II.

>>507945131
Well let's not go hating on the mass itself, which is all about communion and the Eucharist. I really agree with you about Vatican II though, that was my wake-up call to Orthodoxy as well. Of course when you look deeper that had jewish fingerprints all over it, but it was disappointing to me that Catholicism wasn't robust enough to endure that subversion it seems.

Also the fact that the bolsheviks with all their murderous genocide were primarily interested in purging the Orthodox Church is extremely compelling to me. Tells me that they must see it as unsubvertible for its inherent decentralized and obstinate nature, so they try to resort to mass murdering its followers instead.

>>507922959 (OP)
>I'm thinking of becoming a Orthonigger unironically..

>>507945119
I'll add that honestly I learn more chatting with people after service than anywhere else. It's kinda crazy but I always end up staying at church until like 2 or 3pm on Sunday afternoons. It's wonderful. Learning about orthodoxy online is one thing, but do be careful not to fall into the "orthobro chad based debaters" camp. There's so much more that has to be learned in real life or reading actual books.

On that note, here's something to listen to that helped me, he covers a lot of protestant and catholic issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT0331BT4zs

>>507945573
>Well let's not go hating on the mass itself
I'm sorry if you got that impression. My point is that there are a lot of protestants who smell the incense and hear the ancient languages and get all goo-goo eyes for the wrong reasons. This applies to both catholicism and orthodoxy, and the point is that you have to have reasons to follow the faith than just the liturgy because you won't be 'blown away' by it forever.

>>507940375
The saints are not infallible. They have disagreed on things. St. Augustine had ideas that were wrong.

Your fixation on this issue is puzzling, and borderline insanity. It makes no logical sense to believe in once saved always saved, from any perspective. It's pure lunacy.

>>507945885
I'd be careful with how you word that.

The Divine Liturgy has it's own grace. Illiterate peasants who don't know anything about theology and yet their faith is likely stronger than most american converts.

The Orthodoxy of the heart is more important than the Orthodoxy of the mind.

>I'm just gonna become a different kind of christcuck but with funnier hats
Yeah that'll solve everything!