Lets be honest, they only won because they had Ukrainians
Theyre fighting Russia to a standstill all on their own

>>509538783 (OP)
They won for the same reason Ukraine still stands. Which is practically infinite supply of weaponry etc from western allies

>>509538783 (OP)
I was wrongly led to believe Germans understood strategy.

>>509538783 (OP)
They never occupied North Korea.

>>509538783 (OP)
Most of Russian accomplishment were done by Ukrainians or stolen from Ukraine.

>>509538894
Sure thing buddy
>6 & 9 August: Nukes Dropped
>No Surrender
>9 August: Soviets invade Manchuria
>20 August: Soviets defeat Japanese Army
>2 September: Japan Surrenders

> *drops mic*
> *mic drop*
> what's his name again?
> say. his. name.
> taps
> be honest
> let's be honest
> admit it
> face it
> .
> Well?
> Thoughts?
> Now that the dust has settled,
> he's right, you know
> this. so much this.
> how do you respond without sounding mad
proprietary slide AI thread

>>509539882
Without the Lent List, Russia would have surrendered to Germany.

>>509538783 (OP)
East Germany, Poland, and Ukraine carried the entire USSR.
The talent pool was largely post-war German developing things while the slavs got drunk and worked 70 hours a week in the factories.

>>509540091
>poland
lol

>>509538783 (OP)
>Ukrainians
>Siberians
>Lend and Lease

>>509539968
Half of it went to the Pacific side of Russia, no Germans there
Without Russians in Pacific USA would surrender to Japan
Barbarossa was won without Lend Lease
Lend lease only started coming in substantial amounts after '33
Mutts needed Russians to fight for them in the East
Russians stipulated it with more LL in the West
They saved your ass

>>509540184
What you think that vodka made itself?

>>509540249
Stalin and Khruschev both said without lend lease Russia would have lost to Germany.
The nips were getting genocided before we even dropped the bombs. The red army taking manchuria wouldn't have done shit until they crossed the pond which they had no capacity to do.

>>509540249
that is some special russian cope

>>509538783 (OP)
Go back Taras

>>509540379
>Stalin and Khruschev both said
It's called diplomacy. Imagine getting all that supply and then saying "meh we'd won anyway". That's something a Jew or an American would say.
Numbers speak for themselves.
>The nips were getting genocided before we even dropped the bombs
Yet they didn't surrender. Why ? Because you were killing the civilians instead of fighting the army, like you always do.
Dates are there, Nips kept fighting after you killed the civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki but surrendered after their ARMY got defeated by Soviets in Manchuria

>>509540767
>Numbers speak for themselves.
yes 30% of soviet supply as you yourself showed

>>509540767
The USSR didn't give a shit about diplomacy, neither Stalin nor Khrushchev gave a shit what we thought of them.

>>509539494
Ok faggot

>>509540932
>Being this Jewish
>0% for Barbarossa;
>5% by the end of '42;
>9% by the end of '43;
>12% by the end of the '44;
>In May '45 Germany surrenders bu LL keeps coming, another 7%
>HALF of it went to Pacific
>Soviets had a non-attacking agreement with Japan, they didn't need to attack, Americans needed it
Soviet forces in the Pacific (where they didn't really need them but Americans did):
>*1,577,725* troops
>27,086 artillery pieces
>1,152 rocket launchers
>5,556 tanks and self-propelled guns
>3,721 aircraft
>>509541356
See above
Numbers and dates speak, your claim is a cope and pulled out of your ass, of course they cared about the diplomacy.

>>509541541
The British sent stuff in 41, like %20 of the Soviet tanks for the Battle of Moscow were from Britain.
The most important stuff wasn't weapons though. It was the 400,000 trucks, hundreds of locomotives and rail cars, and mountains of Spam. The Russians spilled lots of blood to win, but if you can't get your troops where they need to be or feed them then you don't win.

>>509541541
thats the stupidest thing I ever read

>>509541887
hes also forgetting the food
the german campaign was also build on taking the food supply from the soviets which was then largely replaced by the americans
they would have all starved otherwise

true

>>509541990
Yes, Spam is the canned meat they were sent. I should have been more clear on that.

>>509541887
A lot of those trucks were to send troops to the Pacific though.
I'm not saying LL didn't matter at all but some folks try to paint it as if Russians had nothing. Their military production outdone German.
When you use the same logic for the Pacific and claim the USA would lose without Soviets then they suddenly change the tune.
As for spam, great but I doubt that without it Soviets would have absolutely no food, they would just have to look elsewhere. Once Americans started sending it Russians simply didn't need to think about it.
Remember that the Germans faced the same problem when they attacked Soviets, their grain supply came from Russia and by attacking them and losing they effectively shot themselves in the foot but they didn't just starve, they found other resources
>>509541907
>Factual numbers and dates are stupid
Your concession is accepted

>>509542544
>muh pacific troops
what kind of retarded russian cope is this
>Their military production outdone German.
yes because Germany was also bombed day and night
Königsbegr was bombed to dust before the soviets even showed up there

>>509538783 (OP)
>>509539494
>>509540091
I love historical revisionism.

>509538783
>on their own
uh huh just like America down Iraq "all on their own" those 3 dozen countries helping? Didn't actually do anything other then send strongly worded letters in both instances

>>509538783 (OP)

Ukrainain POV

https://nitter.poast.org/simpatico771/status/1941155410536521824#m

>>509542544
The thing with trucks and trains and even cans of spam is that they can be moved from ports in the pacific to other locations if they happened to be delivered there, but some of it came from Northern ports and up through the Middle East. The trains and locomotives and trucks that were sent are part of what makes moving all this stuff around possible.
So instead of needing to produce these things, which they pretty much couldn't while their factories were being moved to the Urals and rebuilt anyway, the Soviets can use their industrial capacity to build things like T-34s. And what do they use to move all the resources and parts around to build things? The trains and trucks.
Again, I fully acknowledge that Russia could not have won without all the blood they spilled. I don't take that away from them. But they basically had someone else taking care of a significant portion of the boring logistics stuff that, while it happens in the background, is also critically important to the war effort.
>they would just have to look elsewhere
Look where? Germany had the Ukraine for years.
>germany found new resources
Yes. In the Ukraine. Which they then had and Russia did not.

>>509543274
and Germany was bombed and to fight on several other fronts

>>509543274
>Yes. In the Ukraine. Which they then had and Russia did not.
Kek. Look up "Scorched Earth"
>Look where?
Like take livestock and grain from Russian farmers, duh. Stalin did it in '33 without even the war, you think he'd have a problem doing it again in the war time. Also he could have relocated the million soldiers from Pacific to attacking some Asian country like Tibet or Pakistan or taking and plundering a part of China.
>Again, I fully acknowledge that Russia could not have won without all the blood they spilled. I don't take that away from them.
But you don't acknowledge they still produced most of their gear and that they fought in the Pacific for Americans that they didn't really have to.
>But they basically had someone else taking care of a significant portion of the boring logistics stuff that, while it happens in the background, is also critically important to the war effort.
Yes, that was their price for entering the Pacific theater. Americans in the Pacific also provided Soviets with logistics while the Soviets did the fighting.
American army in the Pacific was around 2.7M and Soviets came in with 1.5M, so if 30% of Russian provisions made a difference in the Western front how come 30% of man power made no difference for Americans in the Pacific.

>the Americans delivered over 400,000 trucks and other vehicles to the USSR. During the same period, Soviet factories produced less than 200,000. Given the size and scope of the challenges in the vast Russian steppe, trucks were key in moving various classes of supply and labor over hundreds of miles. After the war, even Premier Nikita Khrushchev reported that the USSR was dependent on Western vehicles for its tactical advances in Stalingrad and Berlin. So prevalent were American designs that they remained part of Red Army equipment sets for years after the war. Even versions of the famous “Katyusha” rocket launchers used by the Red Army were often placed upon American-built Studebaker US6 2.5-ton trucks. The American vehicle became the standard mount for the 1,800 BM-13N Katyusha models produced. Soviet soldiers were so impressed with the quality and performance of American vehicles that the term “Studebaker” became synonymous with excellence. Khrushchev, who succeeded Stalin, recalled, “After Stalin’s death it seemed that all our artillery was mounted on American equipment.”

>, perhaps the most important contribution of Lend-Lease was agricultural. Even before the war, Stalin’s domestic policies resulted in food shortages across the USSR with an estimated five million people dying from starvation, and Soviet food stocks were insufficient even before the 1941 Nazi invasion. Such shortages were exacerbated as the Wehrmacht occupied the most productive Soviet farmlands in Ukraine and the northern Caucasus. These occupied areas previously produced or housed 38 percent of the grain, 84 percent of sugar supplies, 60 percent of sunflower oil, 38 percent of the cattle, and 60 percent of the hogs. Adding to the country’s agricultural woes, many of the horses used in farming were commandeered for military use while tractor production was reconverted for armored or tracked vehicles. Furthermore, farmhands and manual labor became scarce as the nation mobilized its population to either fill its military ranks or employ workers in war-related industries. Reflecting the occupation and its effects on Soviet agriculture, grain production fell from 95 million tons in 1940 to 29 million in 1942. In conjunction, all elements of Russian agriculture suffered, with potato production falling from 75 million tons to 23 million tons, and meat declining from a prewar figure of 4.7 million tons to 1.8 million.

>As a result, the prewar food shortages continued and remained endemic among Soviet populations. Even with food shortages prior to the war, official government figures claim that food consumption dropped 35 to 40 percent during the conflict. Wartime rationing started in July 1941, and by 1943 food was so scarce that in some areas civilians reportedly ate grass, roots, and leaves. Sustenance was certainly a critical concern in keeping the USSR in the fight. Reflecting their dire situation, from 1942–43 food was the top Soviet priority for Lend-Lease deliveries.

>Underscoring its importance while helping to stave off famine, a full quarter of Lend-Lease tonnage sent to the USSR throughout the war was food. While most of the American 4.4 million tons provided subsistence went to the Red Army, it allowed for domestic production to feed civilian populations. In the first few months of 1943, American produce alone accounted for 17 percent of Red Army calories along with half the fats consumed by uniformed personnel. Adding protein to the Red Army diet was Hormel Foods, which provided its signature tin-packed SPAM canned pork and ham products. By 1944, the USSR’s food crises abated some as occupied territories were liberated but still required the planting season to fully reap the bounty. Despite the slow recovery, the Red Army and the USSR were at critical point regarding sustenance. Lend-Lease again helped fill that gap. Even Khrushchev quipped that “without SPAM, we should not have been able to feed our army.”

>While Soviet historians downplay the Lend-Lease effort, perhaps the most telling indication regarding the importance of American assistance came from the USSR’s own senior leadership. As early as 1943 at the Tehran Conference, Stalin reportedly said: “The most important things in this war are machines. … The United States is a country of machines. Without the machines we received through lend-lease, we would have lost the war.” By late 1943, Stalin acknowledged that Lend-Lease already had a decisive impact on the Soviet Union’s survival. Massive aid would then enable Soviet counteroffensives. Khrushchev credited the trucks and equipment received after Stalingrad with enabling the Soviet mechanized offensives of 1944 and 1945, observing: “Our losses would have been colossal because we would have had no maneuverability.”

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/lend-lease-eastern-front

>>509544128
>scorched earth
lol look up "time". Scorched Earth just means you destroy the supplies before the enemy can take them. It doesn't stop them from growing food the next year when they still hold the land. Or the year after that. They lost it in 44 during Bagration, but they had it for a while.
>just take the grain and livestock
Most of the grain was burned as part of that scorched earth you just mentioned. And if you take all the grain and livestock that's left and leave the farmers to die then what do you do next year?
>just invade someone else and steal rice
Russia tried to invade Finland and it went fucking horribly so there is no guarantee that would work. And they don't want to piss off Japan and start that up again while also dealing with the Germans so invading countries in or near Japan's sphere of influence is a bad idea.
>you don't acknowledge they produce most of their gear
I don't dwell on that point no. That Russia made 10 billion rifles or whatever is not in question. I mentioned the T-34. I tell you that Russia spilled plenty of blood, so they obviously had weapons to do so. I never argued that they were provided by anyone else.
>fought in the pacific for americans that they didn't really have to
Stalin did it because he wanted to. Funny how China and North Korea were communist after the war. You think that would have happened if the Allies dealt with it alone? Maybe it would have taken longer, no one really knows the exact calculus the Japanese based their decision to surrender on the atom bombs versus the Soviets joining the war. The Russian say it was only because of them. The Americans say it was only the bombs. Who fucking knows.
>how come 30% of man power made no difference for americans in the pacific
I never said that it made no difference. So how much did Russia fucking around in China help America take Iwo Jima?

bunch of people in this thread have never seen a scale map before so they hjave no idead about the actual shape and locations of the landmasses they talk about...
Israel the same distance to croatia as croatia is to Moscow...
The black sea is way more than americans think of it as.

>>509545008
1/2
>Scorched Earth just means you destroy the supplies before the enemy can take them. It doesn't stop them from growing food the next year
You have to survive a year though. You said earlier that "Soviet production halted while transferring factories to Urals" and that halt is apparently detrimental but halting the food production for a year somehow is not.
>Most of the grain was burned as part of that scorched earth
That was in the territory lost to the Germans, what are you doing here ? I'm talking about the non occupied territories. It's like you're being obtuse on purpose.
>And if you take all the grain and livestock that's left and leave the farmers to die then what do you do next year?
The same thing you did in Ukraine in '33. Obtuse
>Russia tried to invade Finland and it went fucking horribly so there is no guarantee that would work.
There's no guarantee it wouldn't work either. Finland was armed well and they lost the war, occupying some unarmed Asian country would be like taking a candy from a baby.
>Stalin did it because he wanted to.
There's a difference between "want to" and "have to". You are strawmaning. What I'm saying is that Soviets fought there and if LL tipped the scale in Europe then Soviet intervention tipped the scale in the Pacific.
>You think that would have happened if the Allies dealt with it alone?
If the allies dealt with it alone maybe they'd lose to the Japanese. What Allies fought in the Pacific other than Americans and Russians (Russia and China were Allies too btw)

>>509545008
2/2
>So how much did Russia fucking around in China help America take Iwo Jima?
Lol. Le Iwo Jima.
>A tiny island
>Americans attacked with 110 000 troops vs 20 000
>Barely managed to win
According to Americans themselves:
>>So how much did Russia fucking around in China help America take Iwo Jima?
Lol. Le Iwo Jima.
>A tiny island
>Americans attacked with 110 000 troops vs 20 000
>Barely managed to win
According to Americans themselves:
> The invasion of Iwo Jima was controversial, with retired Chief of Naval Operations William V. Pratt stating that the island was useless to the Army as a staging base and useless to the Navy as a fleet base.[14]
>The Japanese continued to maintain early-warning radar capabilities on Rota island, which was never invaded by American forces.[15]
Hahaha
>Experiences with previous Pacific island battles suggested that the island would be well-defended and that seizing it would result in significant casualties.
TOP KEK even. I've always heard of this Iwo Jima as some epic battle but I never researched it and it turns out it was some lame ass shit kek. I'm sure it was horrible and I wouldn't want to be there but compare it to Barbarossa and it was a joke.

>>509544815
>>509544763
>>509544705
>>509544647

>>509538783 (OP)
They're losing territory and men 4th year in a row despite the biggest western lendlease in history , controlling literally 0 prewar russian territory with literally 0 help from any of our own allies. And we've yet to declare mobilization (like in day 1 of Barbarossa) unlike the ukies

safe to say both OP and lendmeme have been debunke

>>509546101
>halting the food production for a year somehow is not
I never said it wasn't detrimental. Who the fuck are you discussing this with, because it's obviously not me. You asked where the Germans got additional food from. I told you one of the sources. That doesn't mean it was the source five seconds after they took it, just that it was a source during the war.
>i'm talking about the non occupied territories
The regions they were already getting their remaining supplies of grain and livestock from are some how going to make up for losing 40% of their grain production and 60% of the livestock? Please explain for us obtuse people how that works exactly.
>the same thing you did in ukraine in 33
You're whining about me being obtuse, but you just throw out some vague statement like this. What exactly do you want them to do to replace all the people that would starve when they already need people for the front and the factories?
>it might work
And it might not. The Soviets in the far East weren't particularly well armed themselves needing the more modern weapons in the West. And you simply ignored the part about antagonizing Japan. That seems pretty obtuse.
>strawmanning
Because you don't agree that Stalin made a choice? That's not a stawman.
>then Soviet intervention tipped the scale in the pacific
And? I never said it didn't have any effect on the Pacific. Again you're projecting previous arguments you've had onto me. I don't just automatically believe the opposite of what you do. You can just ask instead of randomly accusing me of shit.
>maybe they'd lose to the japanese.
lmfao they can just bomb them with atom bombs and lose no one in the process.
>what allies fought
The British, Australians, and Indians. There were a lot of commonwealth forces in the theater. And after the initial blitz in 41 they were pretty much crushing the Japanese everywhere.

>>509546283
>i don't know anything about the island hopping campaign, but i read about this one specific island on wikipedia for five minutes and now i'm going to try and act smug about it and cherry pick some opinions
Yeah okay, bud.
>barely managed to win
uw0tm8

>>509538783 (OP)
fuck churchil for siding with stalin instead
left half a europe under commies occupation

>>509538783 (OP)
I suppose this might be true considering the Red Army’s recruitment demographics.

Ukrainian allegiance to the USSR is still contrary to the nationalist narrative though.

>>509546835
>from are some how going to
Please rephrase this because you sound like a stroke victim
>The Soviets in the far East weren't particularly well armed themselves needing the more modern weapons in the West.
Yes because they didn't have a reason to be since they were at a bloody war with Germany, not Japan. They had a non aggression pact with them.
>And you simply ignored the part about antagonizing Japan.
They literally went to war with Japan even though they didn't have to, doesn't seem like they cared not to antagonize them.
>lmfao they can just bomb them with atom bombs
They can bomb civilians as they did but again, it didn't get the Japanese army to surrender. They'd have to nuke half of China and every Pacific island, I'm sure if they could make enough nukes they'd do it being Jews and all but it's pretty pathetic.
Japan surrendered after their army surrendered in Manchuria.
>The British, Australians, and Indians.
How large were their troops compared to 1.5M Soviets ? Remember that 100 rotations of 10 000 troops =/= 1000 000 troops
>>509547043
>but i read about this one specific island on wikipedia for five minutes
And you're obtuse again
>YOU brought up Iwo Jima
>I replied about Iwo Jima
>And then you act as Iwo Jima is actually unimportant
>Which is exactly what I said

>and now i'm going to try and act smug
I literally quoted the article, what does it matter if I read it in 5 minutes, it's there from the mouth of an American Chief of Naval Operations.
The quote would be the same if I read it for 10 months.
Address the argument don't give me that "you're not an expert" shit

>>509549339
You're absolutely coping and y'know it
You're cherry picking bullshit to fill your ego.
Kys

>>509538783 (OP)
>standstill
>all on their own

>>509538783 (OP)
I love your logic.
>When soviets were at war with germans
Only ukranians won, others were barely helping at all, especially russians they did nuthin
>When soviets were at war with finland, occupied poland allying with germans
Uhh ukranians didn't fight in that war!!! Only russian orcs!! Even if ukrainians did fight, they were forced to!!!

>>509539882
Americans would rather send daily over 100 B2 bombers with napalm bombs to bomb japanese civilians in Tokyo and then later throw 2 nukes at Hiroshima and Nagasaki killing mostly civilians, rather than just put boots on ground and start ground warfare.
>But, but american soldiers would die!!
Also Boeing made shit ton of money by building all these B2 bombers, coincidence? I just must be antiseptic

>>509552331
B29 super fortress***, not B2, i fucked up