Then how do we explain death before the Fall? Like Dinosaurs dying or the fact that some fossils were found with some signs of having developed cancer while they were alive

>>509613428 (OP)
I have never heard of animals being tainted by sin, they are incapable of sin but their blood covers mans sin because of their innocence.

>>509613428 (OP)
man obtained the ability to sin once they acquired knowledge of the difference in good an evil becoming conscious of it and becoming responsible for it.

>>509613428 (OP)
>worship no other gods but me
My guess is another god did it

>>509613428 (OP)
Dinosaurs weren't real.

>>509613428 (OP)
Dinosaurs were part of the building phase, time might not even been standardized back then. Many of the extremes of survival, emotion, instinct, and motion were tested with dinosaurs trying to find the perfect vehicle for spirit. Cancers can come from nesting on Uranium rocks. Shit happens but those Uranium rocks are going to be needed to quell the middle east one day and provide an abomination of desolation that is well deserved. People have a hard time conceptualizing humans being one of many things created and not the first and only. Anyways, our generation of humans will come and go in a big event as promised. Dinosaurs had theirs. It is just the way things are. God bless and try the fish.

>>509613428 (OP)
There was no death before the fall, the dinosaur died in the flood of Noah, well after the fall. The Bible says God created a mature earth for Adam in 6 literal days, it would have had the same rocks that maybe could be aged in billions of years despite being created a few weeks prior in their current state.
t. post grad STEM major

>>509613428 (OP)
without correct perspective you'll never understand it

>>509617157
>without correct perspective you'll never understand it
What would be the correct perspective?

>>509617102
That's interesting Anon, but what about the idea that animals already killed each other long before man existed? I am a Christian but I am trying to reconcile this, it is apparent that animals were already killing each other before Adam was created

>>509613428 (OP)
Wisdom 2:23 For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of His own eternity.Œ
24 Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world; and those who take hold of his side do find it.

Reading the deuterocanon can help.. but even if you don't...
Romans 5:12 "Sin entered into the world, and death by sin"

>>509617593
What flavor of Christianity teaches that animals sin if you don't mind me asking?

>>509618173
None comes to mind but I just got caught in this loophole of why do animals commit atrocities in the first place if they are not bound by sin. There's an explanation as to why humans kill, rape etc because we were corrupted by sin. But if animals are uncorrupted, why do they commit those acts? Some of them kill for fun, commit necrophilia or other messed up stuff not required for survival, and I wonder if they were corrupted by sin

>>509613428 (OP)
Jewish myths are not reality, retard

>T rex was a vegetarian before the fall, that's why gud gave him big teeth

>>509618538
>None comes to mind but I just got caught in this loophole of why do animals commit atrocities in the first place if they are not bound by sin.
Do the animals not provide you with a living example of what you could be without a moral compass or empathy? Do the Japanese not provide you with a living example of a best case society without Christian direct influence? Does the middle east not show you how stupid and unnecessary tribal life is for the modern world? Everything is laid out for you to observe and reflect on, why do people do what they do is a great teaching for what is best and what happens without a moral compass.

>>509618538
Sin and evil are two different concepts, sin just means transgressed the commandment of God.

Evil is anything that is opposite of the fruits of the spirit (love, joy, peace, kindness, etc..)

The animals aren't under sin, but they still do evil. They won't be held accountable for their actions in the afterlife as man will be judged for their actions from sin.

>>509618894
>>509618898
Makes sense, but I guess my question lies more under the umbrella of: why are they evil to begin with?

I understand the killing for survival, no problem with that. But why are some of them so sadistic and evil? Why were created like that? We're like this before the Fall too?

>>509613595
>but their blood covers mans sin because of their innocence.

The blood of animals doesn't take it away however. The point of Able and Cain is to foretell of a coming dichotomy of 2 types of people that will interact with God. Not only are they real people. It's also talking about believers vs religion. Able simply trusts what God says he's going to do, and offers up the first and finest lamb of his flock, which is a direct allegory for Christ in the old testament, Abel's was accepted, Cain however, trusting in the work he does to mitigate the curse of entropy, farming in his field, uses a bloodless sacrifice, trusting in the work he's done rather than trusting God.
Because of the subtle difference between a believer, in that you can only tell what someone believes if they confess openly to MAN what they believe, Cain gets pissed at Abel, because he cannot see that God doesn't show favoritism, Abel has done something on the inside, (NOT OUTSIDE) that God is specifically looking for, faith.
The gospel is infact preached all throughout the old testament, God giving Abraham his word is infact a guarantee of salvation. Abraham's time before Christ is irrelevant because it's inevitable that God will not fail, meaning anyone who simply trusted God, even though they had no living sacrifice perfect enough to mitigate sin relatively at the time, they were forgiven without consideration to temporal shit.
Now, the book doesn't show a third type of person, meaning atheism is a categorical fallacy to the story, God will see an atheist no differently than Cain in this context, because the atheist is infact trusting themselves over God. Cain openly interacted with God and yet still didn't believe. No different from Judas.

Cain killing Abel, is a snapshot of the behavior you will encounter where religion with apostates will kill believers for simply trusting in the blood of christ to save them, rather than working through law.

>>509617593
If you claim to be Christian than taking what the Bible explicitly says on faith should come naturally. The Book of Genesis clearly says land animals were created on day 6 and Adam later that same day. There was only fruit consumed in the garden. It never mentions animal death. God created a perfect existence in the garden where death of any kind did not occur.

If we're speaking about a God that spoke the universe into existence, why are you putting constraints on Him?

>>509619225
Because of Satan, Satan was one of God's helpers a power angel who was probably one of the elohim who was part of creation. He led a rebelion in Heaven and caused 1/3rd of the angels to follow him. He had broken God's commandments and wanted others to join him in judgement. That is why there is still evil in the universe, it was created by evil beings like Satan and must be remade.

>>509619225
Why wouldn't God create predators and cruelty in the animal kingdom? Are you still hung up thinking that makes God a sinner or something? It doesn't matter how or where or how cruelly or peacefully you die, it's not God sinning when a person dies, it's simply a fulfillment of Genesis 3:19.

>>509619273
I believe that Cain was a good example of a sinner, someone who did the opposite of what God commanded and yet was still loved and saved. That is why God place the mark on Cain so that no man would take vengeance on him. He was marked for salvation because he was a sinner. We aren't to judge Cain or Judas, because they were also part of God's plan for saving humanity, and they will be reserved for judgement last. First will be last, last will be first. Maybe God will spare him or maybe not, but it's not up for any man to decide.

>>509619482
>That is why there is still evil in the universe, it was created by evil beings like Satan and must be remade.
Satan isn't the source of evil, it's particularly an individual choice. Satan being able to tempt man into the fall doesn't mean they didn't have the ability to choose.
God gave Adam and Eve the law by telling them what would happen and to not take from the tree.
So they knew what they did to be wrong, because of the knowledge between good and evil, this disjoints mankind's thought process, and having sinned, their conscience caused them to hide from God, fearing him.
Sin causes you to flee because you're afraid of God, the point of why Satan did this is because in order to get man to worship him, Satan needs to cause man to stumble, and become confused. Once you sin, and are aware of it, it is very easy with introspection to see why religion makes saving yourself impossible.
The knowledge of the difference between good and evil allows you to take PRIDE in doing what's expected of you based on what you HAVEN'T done wrong. This is blatantly what causes rebellion in the first place, its a form of self worship and it's very alluring which is why Satan fell. Religion is infact a weapon he uses to bait people into becoming gatekeeping apostates that think they're justified by what they do, over what God is willing to do for them. They believe the law is what saves, rather than God. Refusing to believe inwardly that they are condemned by it. Because of this, and the functionality of religion, Satan being far more physically capable than man in this instance, allows Satan to wedge himself inbetween fallen man and God, and arrogate the lie that he's infact their savior. By appealing to their pride, he can seduce man in the state into worshipping him, which is why religion is still present during the end, it is at best, controlled opposition to him, it doesn't preach Grace, it preaches judaized law and law mixed with grace.

>>509619323
I believe the story of Genesis to be fairly allegorical, Augustine and Origen, and I believe in Hebrew Adam is refered as "The Adam" I don't know I'm wrestling with all of this because Genesis has always been quite confusing to me, I believe in God but I do believe Genesis was supposed to be allegorical to a certain degree

>>509620056
Judas is condemned, the text says it plainly, not because he committed suicide, but because he didn't believe. Jesus had selected foreknowing Judas would betray him for this purpose. The point is that God was going to use anyone he knew would never trust Christ to establish the difference between belief and works like the book has done at least 10 times throughout the old testament at this point.
Gnostics tried to subvert the fact that salvation is by simple faith, and this is why Paul comes out against religion, and he is infact hunted down by the same priests he used to be with as they kill him. Just like Cain killing his brother.
Im not sure cain was saved, the text implied he didn't believe during the sacrifice because of the result.
There are instances where people who commit suicide are obviously believers, King Saul and his armor bearer killed themselves just before the philistines encircled them and just before the battle the day before it's implied he's a believer because he talks to Samuel from beyond the grave. Samuel tells him that him and his sons will be with Samuel when they die. Another piece of evidence that the gospel has nothing to do with religious law following.

>>509620104
Yes every person will be judged on a case by case basis, but my point is that Satan taking part in creation had sinned and rebelled first bringing all of creation to destruction because of the rebellion.

Remember Jesus said that reformation is not possible, that the only way forward is complete rebirth. That is why all must be remade to fix the problem.

>>509619754
I'm not implying that God is a sinner for allowing animal cruelty, my question is: why do animals have those inclinations in the first place?

Necrophilia, rape, cannibalism is evil as it goes against God's intended purpose for live and creation, so it doesn't really answer my question; why do they have those evil desires? It it because of the fall?

>>509620399
You might be right, Judas could be condemned, but he still has to be judged first. Because he was not vigilant in building his faith, he had lost all faith and had not forgiven himself only to commit suicide.

>>509620056
>Cain and Judas Iscariot were saved
JW get out

>>509620627
I'm not JW but I think we will be surprised who is saved. Hitler? who knows my friend.

>>509620618
He never had any faith, had he believed God would have protected him from Satan's direct attempt.
Luke 22:3
it's right there. God doesn't allow malevolent beings to directly influence believer's bodies because they're being protected by the holyspirit. Luke basically makes it impossible for you to say that he was saved and basically guarentee's he went to hell.

>>509620825
Jesus had also said that Satan was in St Peter as well, does that mean Peter is already condemned?

>>509613595
That totally makes sense bro

>>509620210
>Genesis allegorical
It's the testament of Adam and starts in Genesis 2:4 from his perspective. (2:1-3 should have been put into ch 1)
>>509620478
Evil is from pride alone, separation from God in wicked men. There's no soul, no choice, no debate of God's law written on the heart like in a human. An animal it's an empty vessel, if these tasks are perceived as evil by you they are without the same evil as a humans.

>>509620970
Every culture in the world in ancient times sacrificed animals and humans for the blood. So it made more sense back then

>>509620936
No, Satan was speaking through peter through his humanistic understanding. Peter confessed that Jesus was the Christ, and that is how you know he was saved. You can't confess something unless you actually believe it. This was what allows Jesus to foretell that Peter will deny him three times, but he's still saved because his salvation doesn't depend on what Peter himself does, Peter trusts Jesus, its not based on what Peter did, Jesus told him this before he was crucified to underline WHY God was going to the cross. Underlining that without a perfect atonement, because Peter could not remain strong, Jesus had to give a guarantee resulting in his own death to support mankind's faith in God and top it off with the miracle of miracles, self-resurrection, because it means that Jesus is God incarnate and it cannot be denied.

>>509620478
>It it because of the fall?
Romans 8,
>I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
The answer is yes, and the "one who subjected it" refers to Adam
In Genesis:
>And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake
Because Adam was the steward of creation, his sin also affected the rest of creation, corrupting it

>>509621106
>for the blood.
You added that in there just now

>>509621087
Fair enough, that made me think, thank you Anon. Btw I found your theory about the dinosaurs dying with the flood, where could I read more about it? I have been entertaining this idea about dinosaurs living with humans at the same time

>>509613428 (OP)
western christian cope is funny and self defeating rationalism. i prefer the eastern view that it's demons all the way down, everything that suggests things are old is false and a temptation to doubt. end of story fuck the devil

>>509621173
>Because Adam was the steward of creation, his sin also affected the rest of creation, corrupting it
This is why i think Entropy is God's curse. explains why perpetual motion machines and super conductors don't physically exist, and why God would have us tied to this rock to keep evil contrained to this scope so it would be difficult for you to deny prophecy. I'm almost certain that humantranscendentalism is part of the beast system to some degree and it explains the exponential damaging effects of technology. Kind of vindicating Ted Kacynski.

>>509617429
it is my understanding that 'dying' refers to failing an ego challenge. being humble prevents humiliation, as the root word is the same and related to 'earth' as in Adam', but which is fulfilled in Christ.

if I call you a faggot in front of the cheerleaders and you have a panic attack and run away, you could be dead for the next 50 years.


I've heard jewish people try to explain how resurrection is actually literal and that even hundreds of year old corpses will somehow rejoin humanity and they make it sound like they have actual Frankenstein ambitions like any other crazy cultist defending absurdities. so who knows their original intention and maybe I'm granting the story too many liberties in adapting it to what I already think would be reasonable rather than judging it strictly by its own merits.


but your original question is about animals. I don't think animals are 'people' like a person is. but that they have a sort of unified personhood.

all raccoons in the class of raccoon have a set of traits. if one raccoon dies, 'raccoon' itself does not.

to 'kill' the personhood of raccoon you'd need to kill all of them. so of course they die, but they live on. but that's only within the original framework of thinking which itself is only an abstraction.


before you develop a concept of Time you don't notice change. so everything seems static.
you're simply existing, aware of awareness, but not of mortality.

>>509621418
>This is why i think Entropy is God's curse. explains why perpetual motion machines and super conductors don't physically exist
Definitely entropy in the sense that without the restraining hand of God and His grace, people will become more and more evil, in other words lacking in good until all good is totally gone. But also, because God is no longer creating, no new energy or matter can be born either, the conservation of energy dictates that perpetual motion machines then can't produce energy out of "nothing". Eventually the new earth and heavens will be made, of course.
>and why God would have us tied to this rock to keep evil contrained to this scope so it would be difficult for you to deny prophecy.
All prophecy indeed has to be fulfilled, I think the day of Jesus's return is really close now, it's almost 2000 years if he was resurrected in 33 AD.
>I'm almost certain that humantranscendentalism is part of the beast system to some degree and it explains the exponential damaging effects of technology.
It would be funny if AI was part of the image of the beast and connected to brain bombs to explode those who don't worship the image.

>>509621769
Every miracle in the book can be explained by trans-dimensionality too. Jesus ascending into a cloud and then disappearing, him teleporting into the room where the apostles were after his resurrection without entering through a window or door, jumpscaring the shit out of them. Water to wine, the fish.

>>509622315
>Every miracle in the book can be explained by trans-dimensionality too. Jesus ascending into a cloud and then disappearing, him teleporting into the room where the apostles were after his resurrection without entering through a window or door, jumpscaring the shit out of them. Water to wine, the fish.
2 Corinthians 12:2
>I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven — whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
So there's the heavens we know, and the third heaven too where God is, and of course by the power of God everything is possible. Apparently when we receive our glorified bodies, feats like apparent teleportation will be possible to us too, pretty exciting. Bodily resurrection in a perfect, untainted glorified body is definitely one of those cool things promised.

>>509621231
Yes, I did because the blood is important in Christian theology

>>509621719
Good point Anon, I read somewhere that it could refer to spiritual death so your take makes perfect sense from that approach. I believe in God but I also believe in Naturalism which makes it a bit hard to an extent since many things in the Bible tend to be allegorical and on the other hand many things in biology that we commonly accept could be wrong so it's definitely an interesting topic albeit confusing at times

>>509616685
If God is omniscient, why did he need to do a bunch of trial and error testing to find the best "vehicle for the spirit"?

>>509613697
why doesn't god just teach animals about good and evil

>>509613595
Creatures without an inner monologue can not sin. Sin is a choice.

>>509621306
Good documentary that goes through all the physical sciences through the lense of Genesis as a Christian
https://youtu.be/UM82qxxskZE?

>>509624701
Thank you Anon!

>>509623158
According to the bible it is better for them that they are not under the law of sin, if they were under the law of sin they would be held responsible and be punished for doing evil. Therefore they remain innocent and can do whatever they feel is natural. It is the job of humans, being higher authority over the animals to take care of them and to make sure harmony is kept. If you do evil to your animals under your care, then you are held responsible, or if you do evil to someone else pet then they are held responsible. God commanded that mankind overcome evil, so it's a divine commandment that we suffer until the end until all things are judged and until God's wrath is fulfilled.

>>509623132
All knowing requires first knowing, ya dingus.

>>509613428 (OP)
>Then how do we explain death before the Fall?
There wasn't any.
Adam's choice to sin brought the curse of death on all creation.

>>509613428 (OP)
Animals are quite literally unable to sin, they're just natural and instinctive as the Lord intended.

I believe they get an automatic open way to heaven, we've seen plenty of times that animals can be holy.

The Holy Spirit is usually depicted as a white Dove, Jesus Christ Himself as a white lamb.

But this is just imagery, Jesus Himself once stated that He has seen dogs show more love than some men.

So honestly, I'm happy about this, knowing all my previous pets are with Him, i won't make it to heaven I'm certain because of how dirty i am, but i sleep well knowing they're safe

>>509627404
that makes sense ngl bible lore is kinda inspiring sometimes

>>509628052
Genesis is pretty amazing for being how old it is. All of the rest of the bible's arguments can also hang off the arguments there, for instance all of mankind became under the law of sin under Adam, and all of the sin was take away under Jesus who is considered a second Adamic archetype.

>>509613428 (OP)
JUWASsiC PAWK DINASAWWW!!

RAAWWW

STEVEN SPEILBEEWG

>>509613428 (OP)
>animals
>sin
Sounds very fucking Jewish, like projecting your crimes against humanity onto a chicken to try and fool your imaginary god (or demon.)

>>509620478
Them being evil is the reason they're animals in the first place. They're paying off karmic debt.