The Soviet people probably weren't ready for too much freedom and the system couldn't handle the level of open criticism that Glasnost allowed.
The situation might have been sort of like how the US is a fragile empire that would crack if ordinary people knew the full truth about how it operates. Most people still have some belief in the system and undoing that belief could lead to the end of the system.
This might be the ultimate reason why Trump and his entourage have to act like "deep staters" and defend the system and protect the dollar. The consequences of appeasing angry sections of the public, that demand openness, might be worse than the consequences of constant deception.
Americans might not be ready for too much freedom, unless they want to live like Russians in the 1990s when the dollar collapses and tens of millions of people suffer "deaths of despair."

>>509956136 (OP)
Yes. People started going to rallies that no one was trying to control, and this contributed to the collapse of the USSR. But the joke is that when Yeltsin came to power and things got 100 times worse, even with famine, people started going to rallies for the return of the USSR, which were brutally suppressed and beaten.

>>509956136 (OP)
No, Glasnost was an attempt to stop the collapse that was already happening.

>>509958057
The lesson is to be careful what you wish for, because you might just get it.
The far left and far right in America demand the end of the current system, but if it ends, I'd expect at least tens of millions of deaths in the US from poverty, drugs, organized crime murders etc.
Today, people are no longer farmers and self-sufficient, like during the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, or the Chinese Revolution. Nearly everyone is dependent on the system's continued functioning, even the farmers are, who need large industrial inputs in order to farm nowadays, and who need usable currency to obtain these things and to make farming worthwhile (to exchange their crops for money).
A collapse nowadays in the US would be the end for a large portion of the population, while the rest suffer but survive.

>>509956136 (OP)
Picrel in a nut.

/thread

>>509956136 (OP)
the retarded government ownership of everything system bankrupted itself because it went against human nature
Glasnost just means 'transparency'
what you're thinking of was 'perestroika' (=radical reform)
it couldn't help a fundamentally flawed system where more work wasn't rewarded by more money, and everyone just did the bare minimum to not get gulag'd
tl,dr: don't fight human nature, bro

>>509959027
Based retarded nigger

>>509958803
Any "civil war" here would be a series of gang turf wars with no clear sides like the last one, with warlordism like in china during the early 20th centruy

>>509959027
Out of your retarded uneducated brainwashed spiel, only one sentence ("glasnost is not perestroika") was real.

>>509959195
>retarded uneducated brainwashed
any counter arguments or just pidorganda?
inb4
>communism would have won if only the entire world was communist
yeah, it doesn't work that way

>>509956136 (OP)
No, nomenklatura did.

>>509959027
No, I was thinking of Glasnost.
I think fragile empires, like the USSR or, today, the USA, need secrecy and cannot let the public know all their evil deeds, at the risk of demoralizing the public, creating protests and mass movements, and falling apart. Fragile, overstretched empires cannot handle too much openness.

>>509959354
>it doesn't work that way
Go try kvetching that retarded crap at China and Vietnam.

>>509959409
>nomenklatura
Just say bureaucracy, ffs.

>>509958925
What is this cope? US had pretty much the same size population as the USSR, its spans an entire continent, Alaska, and Hawaii, but none of that matters because its philosophy of government is completely different, its bottom-up from local government rather than USSR style top-down enforcement.

>>509959933
>cope
But enough about you.
What's being said in that screencap, is factual thoroughly documented truth of harsh reality. Your kvetching won't change it.

>>509959605
>China and Vietnam.
China is communist only in name now
they are in fact national socialist (fascist) but that's been a dirty word since 1945 so it's not used anymore
Vietnam is a shithole and who the fuck cares what happens there
probably junior China shit

>>509960121
How is it there, in 1982, dear uneducated brainwashed retarded sub-21 IQ amoeba cattle cocksucker-kun? This is literally you right now:

>be Soviet Union
>make your country into a banna republic selling oil to the actually productive European countries that need the energy
>price of oil tanks a bit
>balkanize along your Russian Imperial Ethno-Religious lines
Who could have predicted this? Maybe they needed to Communism harder?
>>509958925
The only true part of this text is that the Soviet Union fundamentally had the makeup of an Empire, rather than that of a Nation-State.

>>509959648
Nomenklatura is a better term, grewn and is related to only ussr

>>509960121
>Soviets invented National Socialism with NEP in the 1920s

>>509960367
This is literally you, dear uneducated brainwashed reality-denying self-lying burgerlard:

>>509960438
"Nomenclature" is not a Russian word, imbecile.
And it literally means "bureaucracy". It's just a synonym.

>>509956136 (OP)
Agree. Feel like USA is way too conservative yet somehow registered voters hadn’t shifted.

>>509959933
USA are top down. We can only impacts low hanging fruits.

>>509956136 (OP)
Perestroika was the death knell of the USSR, giving the already massively incompetent and corrupt factory managers even more control over their own affairs directly led to the complete disintegration of the Soviety economy as the mafia was able to immediately strike deals with these managers to divert product into their hands to sell on the black market before they hit state department stores. This lead to product shortages, and a colossal growth of the black market and the Russian criminal networks that eventually devoured the entire country and gave birth to the oligarchs who still rule Russia today.

I do not know what should have been done to solve the problems in the late-Soviet planned economy, the attempt to digitize the system came way too late and the USSR had already fallen apart by that point. I do know that Perestroika is what ultimately killed the USSR though.

>>509960254
>This is literally you right now:
doing better than 15 ways to name a homosexual rape victim in the the pidor military

>>509956136 (OP)
>The consequences of appeasing angry sections of the public, that demand openness, might be worse than the consequences of constant deception.
why taunting them into a civil war with shit like that then?

>>509958803
4-5 days of no electricity in any Western metro and you’d likely be looking at mass looting and chaos. Kinda crazy how fragile we really are as a society.

>>509956136 (OP)
It was part of it. For decades people in Russia had been living in a shit-hole of varing degrees of nightmareishness, but saying as much would get you black-bagged in an instant.
Suddenly they were allowed not only to complain aobut their living standards, incompetent government etc., but they were hearing other people complain about it, letting them know just how bad things really were.
It's no wonder that the whole system fell apart like the clown car it had always secretly been shortly thereafter.

Central planning doomed the USSR

>>509958925
>Muh massive di... err... ship
>At its peak, the USSR had the exact same population as Indonesia today and much less than the US has...
Land mass has ZERO to do with "steering" a nation or its "inertia", dumbass
Tl;dr: absolute retard take

>>509960254
>Real actual proper communists

>>509960254
The thing with rightists is they have a really bad sense of reading the room.
For example, right now some monarchists released a movie denouncing Lenin and calling for his removal from mausoleum in Russia
They chose the worst possible time. There is SMO and Ukraine is decommunizing. Now everyone is going to see monarchists as western agents, if their movie doesn't get outright banned that is.
They would be fine releasing it before or after the SMO but they chose to do it now. Why? They really don't have feeling for time

>>509960438
According to the Wikipedia, the people in charge today in the Russian Federation are mostly the same families that were in charge during the USSR and also during the late Russian Empire. Those "nomenklatura" have remained on top since at least the 1800s.
Note how it is estimated some 60% of Vladimir Putin's top administrators have nomenklatura backgrounds, as Putin himself does.

>Critics of Stalin, such as Milovan Djilas, critically defined them as a "new class".[4] Richard Pipes, a Harvard historian, claimed that the nomenklatura system mainly reflected a continuation of the old Tsarist regime, as many former Tsarist officials or "careerists" joined the Bolshevik government during and after the Russian Civil War of 1917–1922.[5]
>The nomenklatura formed a de facto elite of public powers in the former Eastern Bloc; one may compare them to the Western establishment[6] holding or controlling both private and public powers (for example, in media, finance, trade, industry, the state and institutions).[7]
>Individuals with a nomenklatura background have continued to dominate economic and political life in Russia since the end of the Cold War. According to one 2022 estimate, 60% of elites in the Vladimir Putin administration had nomenklatura backgrounds.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenklatura

>>509963378
Impossible since Russian Empire was ruled primarily by Germans and there were almost no slavs back then.
Second, the entire first soviet government got purged by Stalin. This was 80 years ago. Then khruschev did a half assed purge of Stalinists.
So the people running Russia today are Khruschevites and Stalinist bolsheviks, but not Leninists and not Tsarists.

>>509961025
>>The consequences of appeasing angry sections of the public, that demand openness, might be worse than the consequences of constant deception.
>why taunting them into a civil war with shit like that then?
That's a good question. If indeed secrets must be kept to prevent the system from falling apart, then insiders shouldn't be taunting people who don't believe their lies and deceptions.
My guess is the people in charge today are just really feeling their oats, they enjoy holding power and being able to mock their underlings, and they're just plain assholes.
The system will likely fall apart, with leadership of this quality, just like the USSR did. Then it's every man for himself as the gang lords take over every inch of America.

>>509956136 (OP)
How bad was the oppression before Glasnost? Realistically?
Some places in the West are tossing people in the clink for tweets and various bullshit. J6ers are dumb retards, but the way some of them were treated by the feds was disgusting.

Speaking of. Did Trump pardon a lot of them or no? I know some probably earned their federal bid....

>>509963538
Couldn't the same family lines just have switched allegiances at crucial times?

>>509956136 (OP)
Glasnost kept the Soviet Union from collapsing violently and likely extended it's existence for a few years.

>>509964007
I suppose. Brusilov sided with reds and some cousins of romanovs did too.

>>509956136 (OP)
You can run a country through genuine loyalty or terror. With terror you can do anything you want, but it also leads to every level of the system lying to avoid punishment. It's like a body without pain receptors to tell it when something's wrong. Eventually, the Soviet leadership in their elysium of overproduction, spontaneous loyalty demonstrations, etc, thought it would be perfectly fine to dial back on the terror, and were shocked when every skeleton in the closet came roaring out.

>>509958925
>Zastoy
>Perestroika
>Glasnost
>Collapse anyway
Be honest solyanka-anon, did Breznev and Gorbachev actually reform anything or increase information dissemination in a meaningful fashion?
I always though these were just memes peppered in our western history books to make Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Raygun look relatively better because the West survived til time of publishing (which it clearly did not in spirit)

>>509964902
>You can run a country through genuine loyalty or terror. With terror you can do anything you want, but it also leads to every level of the system lying to avoid punishment. It's like a body without pain receptors to tell it when something's wrong.
Very interesting metaphor

>>509958803
Fuck off, Jew. Everybody already knows that Jews are the bad guys, and America will be just fine without them, even if they do their usual Jew-stuff like poison water supplies. It's much better to have a rough life without than you than live under your boot and being under constant attack.

Jews are easily identified by sight, and everybody knows that they're pussies who can't even fight their own battles. America won't go after the Epsteins and Weinsteins, it will go after the ones on the street we see every day.

>>509968355
Well, I'm not Jewish.
Anyway, if you think the collapse of the government is a good thing, then you're not thinking seriously. People today, for the reasons I mentioned, are all dependent on the functioning of the system. A government collapse in today's US would entail many millions of deaths and great hardship for the survivors.
Your mentality is that of a spoiled person who has no idea how bad things can actually get.

>>509968355
And I'd be fine with the Us getting rid of Zionism. What I am saying is a collapse of the system altogether, like a collapse in government and currency, would be catastrophic.
Getting rid of Jewish influence in the US, and getting rid of Jews, would be beneficial and would not threaten the whole system unless Israel and dual citizens went berserk and sabotaged everything, which they might do in those circumstances.

>>509956136 (OP)
I did a root cause analysis for how the US defeated the USSR as we get only US propaganda crap.
(military spending and calling them evil)

I wanted to estimate if the US has a chance to win in ukraine.
1. the US conpired with the saudis to dump oil (this is probably 50% of the equation)
2. US abundance blackpilled soviet leaders, discredited the system at home and offered a better alternative 30%
3. detante in europe with german neue ostpolitik (reduced foreign threats so no way to compensated for 1+2 20)
(4. hidden but the US proppedtthe USSR up from start to finish throughout the entire 20th century, foodaid, industrialized via lend lease when reagan stopped the failure hit)

now the current US approach is the opposite of all 3

The US govenment spies on its citizens today 1000× more than the soviets ever did.
Also the war spending we used to help bankrupt them never stopped and we are 35 trillion in debt because of it.

>>509969459
>noo everything will collapse!!11!!!
Lmao how about fuck you instead

>daily kacap seething over being sore losers

>>509958925
that is the stupidest cope I've ever seen even for kacap standards

you're just garbage fucking subhumans who can't manage anything

the free market has verified your ass

>>509966274
stop using American VPNs stupid russniggers

>>509969681
did anyone care? NO!
because no one cares about dead kacap shitholes

>>509956136 (OP)

>make a bureaucratic, top down, totalitarian system

>on ho, one guy broke it, who could have seen this coming?

Let's see, was the USSR ever run bottom up? Yes, int he 20s, was that good? No, out of 70 years it probably was the worst period, and that's counting the Great patriotic war. Maybe socialism doesn't work, you lazy entitled jealous commie faggot.

>>509964902
>>509968066
Communist subjective reality vs objective reality.
Think subjective morality where whatever the law says is fine while objective morality has a higher power and clear standards.

As you get deeper and deeper into communist subjective reality, you end up with maid being effective depression treatment and the most moral thing to do.

Eventually the system gets so divorced from objective reality that it collapses as the contradictions and upsidedown proclamations pile up.

Like how the Epstein situation is going down.

>>509971652
someone was definitely a bottom