If god is a perfect designer that can see the future (no free will) and makes no mistakes, why did he holocaust the dinosaurs?

>>510204914 (OP)
Because they served their purpose.

>>510204914 (OP)
To give me oils.

>>510205068
Which was? Can you give me the exact Bible quote here?

Because its jewish nonsense and not to be taken seriously

>>510204914 (OP)
"god" or an "omnicient" figure is a convenient way for people to describe the balance of nature much like how the spinning rock we are living on heats up and cools down according to its proximity to the sun.

>>510205258
Nothing about this heresy in the Bible tho.

Every single step of technology progression is designed by God. Eventually. The AI God will give birth to itself.

>>510205258
I'd rather just worship nature then, since it exists and actually sustains our lives. Makes far more sense than worshiping an allegedly magic jew

>>510204914 (OP)
>a perfect designer that can see the future (no free will)
i'm curious, are there any atheists on /pol/ philosophically informed and intellectually honest enough to point out why what anon just said is retarded?

>>510205366
I see no point in worshiping the creation.

>>510205398
What he said wasn't wrong. It's your own theology that makes no sense. An omnipotent creator, by definition, knows what you're going to do before he creates you. Therefore, freewill is impossible.

There's no reason to be disingenuous, anon.

>>510205456
You are worshiping a creation. Just a jewish one.

>>510205535
I worship the Almighty Creator. You are not the authority of my soul, nor someone above Me.

>>510205498
yeah you don't fit the bill for what i was looking for.
i'll keep waiting a bit before i explain it myself.
i am curious to see if there's even 1.

>>510205613
No, you worship a series of books jews wrote and extrapolate a fantasy from that.

>>510205650
It's okay anon, you have no argument. I understand. Such is always the case.

>>510205661
I worship the supreme Lord who made me the number 1 chess champion of /pol/.

>>510204914 (OP)
And why did he make OP a fat and retarded Europoor?

>>510204914 (OP)
There's nothing that prevents God from knowing the future while granting free will to mankind. All it would take is for God to be able to make accurate predictions from a long, uninterrupted chain of cause and effect set in motion during creation, much like scientists do today for less complicated things like weather, but with perfect understanding of all the variables and all the physics.

In any event, as many dinosaurs as God appointed for preservation, made it to the ark and survived the flood, and there's record of man and dinos co-existing everywhere in the world, the bible itself bearing witness of this.

"Dinosaurs in the Bible": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6f_U_9xwBk

>>510204914 (OP)
Easily to forge over time the best livestock for humans to eat under God's guidance.

>>510206051
That's not what "all knowing" means, retard.
He knows the one true future before it happens. If he is "god", free will is not possible. Him looking away changes nothing. By him KNOWING the one, fixed, true future gets created and cannot be changed.

>>510206269
The God I have seen in my dream can certainly predict the future with 100% precision.

>>510205366
Dont worship shit just chill
We're all here on a lovely summer afternoon collectively hating on brown people because we are all equal genetic dead ends.

>>510206371
Your brain created the only reality that exists to you. In your mind the jewish planetary suicider can be real. Every single brain is a separate reality.

>>510204914 (OP)
Your conception of time is incredibly primitive and materialistic.

>>510206488
My perception is beyond the thing I can see with my eyes.

>>510206269
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

>>510206269
You're talking to schizophrenic jews. Their religion is a bunch of incoherent nonsense. The concept of miracles was introduced later to explain those contradictions away.

>>510206583
Very deep. I'm sure yours is sophisticated and ephemeral.

>>510204914 (OP)
Apparently even God doesnt always finish what he starts or changes him mind but he does leave his mark on everything.

>>510206689
So he made a trap and knew humans will fall for it? What a dick!

>>510204914 (OP)
>believes in his-story
>poltard

They’re still here, ramdeep

>>510206818
If "god" changes his mind, then he isn't perfect ie he is no "god".

>>510206827
No, so that you could ask me that question.

>>510206269
Are you that stupid? If you have perfect understanding of everything, you can step in and change what you want without that messing up prophecy.

Say I write down a ball is going to fall to the ground when I drop it. Would I not be able to predict it will hit the ground if I throw it into the air with some force rather than just letting it drop?

And that's just a man thinking. We don't know exactly how God does it.

>>510206917
woah

>>510206903
Chaos is perfection in itself.

>>510206961
If he knows the future, the future exists. Case closed. He fucked up the moment he created the universe.

>>510206988
Down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.

>>510207062
Exists in His mind, but it only happens at the appointed time.

>>510205720
alright, apparently there are no philosophically informed intellectually honest atheists on /pol/.

>If god is a perfect designer that can see the future and makes no mistakes, does that mean there's no free will?
there are a few ways to handle this.

first up, we have boethian/thomistic eternalism, which is a compatibilist approach (divine foreknowledge =/= causal determinism)
God's knowledge is atemporal, He perceives all time sub specie aeternitatis (from the perspective of eternity). thus, God's foreknowledge is not foreknowledge in a temporal sense but an eternal simultaneous apprehension of all events, meaning God knows our free choices as free, not because He causes them but because He observes them in their eternally present reality.
>>510206269
it's true that if God's foreknowledge necessitated outcomes, all possible worlds would collapse into one (the actual world), violating leibniz's principle of sufficient reason.
BUT, if God actualizes a world where agents freely choose (per middle knowledge, as the molinist framework suggests) then free will is preserved.

>>510207332
No. If he KNOWS than any other future won't happen. Only the one he knows. Him knowing destroys any free will. His actions at any point in time are irrelevant.

>>510207062
Humans are designed in a way, in that, no one is are able to predict the future with precise precision.

>>510204914 (OP)
dinosaurs never existed
99% if those skeletons are "artists interpretations" and 1% bones from biblical giants
the earth is 6000 years old

>>510205214
There are only details about all previous life in the Bible because the Bible focuses on man, not paleontologist.

>>510207538
Is god a human? If he KNOWS, there is no prediction. She KNOWS.

>>510207437
Your "agents" can't choose "freely" because there are no choices to be made if "god" exists.

>>510206917
For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

>>510207451
He has perfect understanding of everything, therefore He knows what would happen under any set of variables, even if He's chosen to only let one scenario unravel. He can set it up so that an earthquake hapoens without that affecting your ability to choose to be a retarded faggot.

>>510204914 (OP)
he didnt holocaust the dinosaurs, I did.

>>510207943
He can't choose shit. If he truly knows ALL, he knows the one true future that will actually happen. He fucked himself and locked himself in his own trap.

>>510204914 (OP)
He must have had his motives

>>510208134
What makes you think He doesn't know the future after all the fulfilled prophecy laid out in the bible?

>>510207746
does not follow.
>>510207437
next we turn to agent-causal libertarianism, which holds that agents possess irreducible causal powers. in this view, God's design includes being with genuine control over their actions, free acts are not caused by prior states but originate from the agent themselves.
a perfect designer may allow moral evil as a necessary condition for meaningful freedom. crucially, God's foreknowledge doesn't constrain our choices, it encompasses them, much like a mathematician knows the truth of an equation without causing it to be true.

lastly, we have divine simplicity and non-competitive agency.
within classical theism, God's act of creation is simple (as in non-composite) and non-competitive with creaturely causation. God's causality operates at a metaphysically distinct level, he sustain the universe secundum naturam (according to the nature of things), including free agents.
within reformed epistemology, belief in free will is properly basic and not defeated by divine foreknowledge, as the latter is inscrutable to finite minds. the logical incompatibility of free will and foreknowledge is unproven.

so, a perfect designer's foreknowledge doesn't entail determinism if:
a: God's knowledge is atemporal (eternalism)
b: free acts are agent-caused (libertarianism)
c: divine and creaturely causation are non-competitive (classical theism)
thus, the argument that "perfect design eliminates free will" commits a category error (confusing knowledge with causation) or a modal scope fallacy (equating certainty with necessity)

scientia Dei non est causa rerum

>>510205214
petroleum for us

>>510204914 (OP)
Dragons were wiped out in the flood. Their "kind" was sufficiently well represented by other animals in the ark that they weren't worth the space and provisions required.

>>510208238
Can you read? I told you multiple time that he KNOWS the future. He literally tells people in the Bible that they have no free will. Fucking Judas will betray him.

>>510206269
>He knows the one true future before it happens. If he is "god", free will is not possible.

> Watch a movie multiple times
> Therefore the actors didn't have free will

>>510207670
Fate Manipulation is also an ability of a God.

>>510204914 (OP)
life is constant chage amongst myriad possibilities, that's more of his plan than a reptilian zoo on a rock in space forever

>>510208547
Source?

>>510208521
What movie? He literally claims in the bible that he knows the future of people who weren't even born yet.

>>510208517
>Can you read? I told you multiple time that he KNOWS the future
God exists outside time and so do our solves which are eternal exist outside of time
We already made all the choices we will make and God knows them. There is no past or future outside time

>>510208628
Pure Luck.

>>510208728
> solves
Meant "souls"

>>510208728
If god knows, we never made any choices. Having a choice means that you an pick another option. Here there were no choices, only what god knew from the start.

>>510204914 (OP)
The dinosaurs acted badly, without morals. Karma gave them what they deserved.

>>510208134
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

>>510208517
And I already explained how you can predict the future while granting free will.

>>510208949
"bad" is literaly defined as "something god doesn't like". So he created dinosaurs that he didn't like and then punished them for doing what he made them to do.

>>510208889
>If god knows, we never made any choices.
Why so? God knows what choice we made. If our souls exists outside the time (and it possible that time didn't existed) it's possible to have both free will and a omniscient God

>>510204914 (OP)
Christcucks don't believe in dinos. According to them, de earf is flat and only 6000 years old, lmao.

>>510209041
He can't "predict" anything when he KNOWS. You fail to understand the word "knowledge".

>>510209153
It's not possible. Him knowing means that there is only one possible path and no choices are ever made.

>>510209271
>Him knowing means that there is only one possible path and no choices are ever made.
our choices. Remember, no time for souls?

>>510209176
"Dinosaurs in the Bible": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6f_U_9xwBk

>>510209487
You make no choices when god knows 100% what you will do beforehand. Please consult the definition of "choice".

>>510209615
So dinos are less than 6000 yrs old?

>>510208316
Did the Creator, when initiating reality, randomize the starting conditions? If not He chose what would happen due to cause and effect (including this shitty thread).

>>510209672
https://youtu.be/pfwReaULI9M?si=Auq_0EHSjDYfmzlX
>>510206917
>>510206917
>>510206917
>>510206917

Goodbye.

>>510209198
Again, we don't know exactly how He knows, but if it would be possible for man to do so just as I described (using science) it must certainly be possible for Him one way or another. Knowing the end of something does not overthrow anybody's capacity for free will. Even if an event is rigged, we still retain our free will to change anything that is not the one specific rigged event.

>>510209722
Yes sir. The video explains exactly why.

>>510209732
I have a Remilia-complex. I am basically the God Emperor of the universe. I want to conquer the world. I can control fate and destiny. For some reason. I am also destined to worship Flandre, and I have no desire to change this destiny. Ever.

>>510209732
here we have a false dichotomy
>God randomized initial conditions
>micro-specified every causal chain, eliminating free will
but there's a 3rd option, structured indeterminacy.
God could create a world with causal regularities (laws of nature) + ontologically open nodes (libertarian free will). this is neither randomness nor hard determinism.
or,
God establishes the metaphysical preconditions for reality (primary causation) but delegates specific causal chains to creatures (secondary causation).
example: God wills that "murder is wrong," but your decision to murder or not is genuinely free, He doesn't force it.
or,
God selects a world where free agents would choose X of their own accord (using His knowledge of counterfactuals [if/then statements]). thus, He "chooses" the initial conditions in light of free choices and not in lieu of them.
or,
God operates at the noumenal level (things-in-themselves), while cause-and-effect is phenomenal (how we experience time). thus, "initial conditions" are epistemic for us but ontologically fluid for God.

>>510204914 (OP)
because God has made and remade the Earth multiple times.
Dinosaurs were a previous Earth
this age He focused on creations in His image. He will destroy this version of Earth and remake it again.
But this time He will start from scratch (but with saved humans carrying over) rather than repopulate the same planet.

>>510209672
You keep saying that buy you don't provide any arguments
All the choices of all people in the universe that will ever exist already exist"ed" outside the time

Without time there's no causality, no past and no future. You "made" the choice you are now "re-enacting" inside a space-timed universe. But your soul is eternal and always existed and made those choices

>>510210172
>Knowing the end of something does not overthrow anybody's capacity for free will.

It literaly does.

>>510210295
Or, there is nothing about this complicated bullshit in the bible and you are coping at this point.

>>510210594
God said he knows all in the Bible. Period. This is the final proof.

>>510210809
this is the "modal scope fallacy"

in modal logic, there's
>necessarily: (true in ALL possible worlds)
>possibly: (true in SOME worlds)
>contingently: (true in THIS world, but not necessarily all)
the fallacy occurs when someone shifts the scope of necesssity from a whole statement to just part of it, making something seem absolutely necessary when it's only conditionally or contextually true.

example:
>bachelors are necessarily unmarried
>john is a bachelor
>therefore, john cannot marry
just because john is unmarried now, doesn't mean he must remain unmarried forever. the necessity applies to the definition of bachelor and not to john's life choices, so the conclusion falsely assumes john's status is permanently fixed.

de dicto: "necessarily, all bachelors are unmarried" (about the statement)
de re: "John is necessarily unmarried" (about john himself)
only the first is valid, the second wrongly assumes the necessity applies to the person, not the definition.

your claim was basically
>Knowing the end of something does overthrow anybody's capacity for free will.

the following is valid, knowledge implies truth:
>necessarily, if someone knows you'll do X, then you'll do X.
this following is invalid, and is what you're saying:
>if someone knows you'll do x, then necessarily you'll do x.
the necessity has shifted from the whole conditional to the outcome itself.

>>510210295
AI slop response

>>510211919
or,
it's just a topic i'm really interested and well versed in.
i used to get "uhhh thanks professor google" as the default handwave before AI was a thing.

>>510212145
Choice is not free will, cat's and computers make choices. Humans make choices due to genetics and learned ideas. Nature and nurture are both out of our control and dictate our actions. That was the original lie in the garden "you will be like God", actually no, there is only one God.

>>510212625
>Choice is not free will, cat's and computers make choices
yeah
>Humans make choices due to genetics and learned ideas
>Nature and nurture are both out of our control and dictate our actions.
maybe this is true for some of you.
i personally have a reflective layer and can act against impulses, unlike a cat.
i'm not a meat robot.

>>510212625
"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free; stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."

>>510213354
If god exists then you make no choices.

>>510204914 (OP)
Dinosaurs are the dragons mentioned in the myths of old.
We killed all the big dangerous ones.
>PeOpLe CoUlD'nT kIlL a T-rEx!
100 men could

>>510213354
So you're telling me if you were born 1000 years ago in sub Sahara Africa as a black person your reflective layer would bring you to the same opinions and choices you make now? Lol

>>510213498
well, i've laid out several different frameworks of reasoning verbosely in this thread as to why what you're saying is wrong (molinism, compatibilism, thomism/boethianism, eternalism, agent-causal liberterianism) and explained to you the exact fallacy you're operating under, you didn't really interact with any of it aside from saying "nuh uh."

The dinosaurs saw it from Gods point of view and decided they needed to become oil for the greater good

>>510213926
sure, context shapes beliefs. but having a reflective layer means i can think about those influence, not just blindly absorb them. even if i were born ina different time or place i'd still have the capacity to question reason and choose, just in different ways. that's what makes human agency meaningful.

>>510214442
That's not free will bro, it's just inner monologue. Read Julian Jaynes "The Origin of Consciousness..." for further info on this. I promise you, you are not in control of your thoughts. Try not to think and see how free you are to stop them.

>>510214759
>Try not to think and see how free you are to stop them.
what a bizarre thing to say.
thoughts arising spontaneously doesn't mean we're slaves to them, the ability to observe thoughts without acting on them is a form of free will.
equating thought generation with lack of control is like saying you're not free because your heart beats automatically.
inner monologue is just one part of a broader system of reflection reasoning and choice.

>>510214759
I'm only saying this in case there's someone that actually wants to know God: the reason Christ tells us to forgive others as God has forgiven us is not because Jesus wants us to be "nice" it's because that aligns with reality. Nobody has free will. Having bitterness or unforgiveness etc towards someone that treated you poorly is the same as being mad at the sky for raining on your parade. Because we don't have free will we live in a realm where forgiveness is inevitable. Our universe is like this because the god that created it is a God of Love

>>510215198
If you had free will you could stop thoughts. It is proof that anyone can see that we don't have free will

>>510215753
>If you had free will you could stop thoughts.
this doesn't follow.
think of thoughts like a popup notification on your desktop pc.
they're annoying but you can freely will to ignore it, close it, or engage with it.
the freedom of your faculty of will is in your ability to choose stuff, not have absolute control your intrusive thoughts.

>>510204914 (OP)
>create self-governing system
whats so hard to comprehend?

>>510216510
Choosing to ignore thoughts isn't free will, AI has many choices on how to answer a question. AI ignores information it has determined to be of no use, again that's not an example of free

>>510216790
an LLM's choices are fundamentally deterministic. theyr'e governed by alorithms, training data and statistical likelihood.
so when an LLM "ignores" or "chooses," it's really just executing code based on probabilities. there's no conscious deliberation or subjective experience, which is why it can't be said that AIs have free will, they lack agency.

human free will on the other hand includes
>intentionality (you're aware of your options and can deliberate on them)
>self-reflection (you can consider long-term consequences, moral values, emotions)
>freedom to go against impulse (you can choose not to react automatically, even to discomfort)
we have sovereignty over how we engage with our thoughts.
out of curiosity, am i speaking to an ahmadiyya?

>>510204914 (OP)
They started getting gay (like you)

>>510205613
So a Jew.

>>510204914 (OP)
God is a superstition

>>510217731
true, and God is real.

>>510217731
Go back to posting about jeets, that's the only thing you are good at dumb nigger.

>>510217731
This is very true, that’s why it hurts.

>>510218355
what makes you so certain?