Can a ham be a fish?
Can a cow be 100 chickens?
The concept of value is unphysical, in any unit of account. Physics has not discovered a property called "value" akin to mass or volume. Value isnt subjective, its retarded.

>>510275796 (OP)
redpill:
bartering never existed before currency, it was only seen in societies which had currency and it collapsed.

Value is also the market value, it doesn't have any physical or even moral considerations. Some offer meets some demand ? thats the market value, you dont have to dig much deeper

>>510276213
>Value is also the market value,
>Value is market value
This is the mental retardation i was talking about. Value isnt anything, it doesnt exist and there are not "types of value"

>>510277327
>a word i dont like is mental retardation
saged

>>510275796 (OP)
Is "prettiness" real?

>>510278321
Is a pretty girl equal to 10 ugly girls?
Different things are different, theres no equivalences unless they get tossed into a balck hole, and then only the mass, charge and angular momentum matter

>>510277327
You're right, "value" isn't a thing in itself; it's a term that represents the concept of value.

I see the concept of "value" as this: people prefer some things over others, and the things they prefer more have higher "value." I'm a firm believer in subjective value, meaning preferences are mostly arbitrary, though there are some exceptions.

Humans abstract away certain concepts, objects or ideas in order to more easily talk about them.

>>510278717
Well, I would agree with you here. "how many ferraris is your child worth?"

This doesn't undermine the idea of value though. As mentioned above, it's just a term we use for a phenomenon. Utils and all that bullshit is retarded though

>>510278911
Adding onto that, I would argue that the quantitative style of economics is retarded. One cannot do math of human preferences. I would therefore also believe that most economics is pseudoscience, because economics is not a science to begin with.

>>510278911
>X is a term that represents the concept of X
I am very smart

>>510279058
You're the one being confused about this lol

Its all based on the fashion of the time
In india a cow is irreplaceable
Natives use their shells as spirit money
A plastic toy is worth 100$
Aztecs used axe heads as currency

>>510279122
Do you think that bananas could be made into a currency?

I am asking because I disagree with the premise that it's all based "on the fashion of the time".

>>510275796 (OP)
>can a cow be a fish?
No, but a cow can be represented by a monetary unit, and so can the fish.

It's almost like currency was created to make trading easier...

>>510279499
I dont think bananas would work
Maybe dildos could be currency, the way things are trending now

>>510279499

Copper axe heads wear down regularly, so it ends up being a reliable measure of labor
Native shells are interesting because it measures a young mans natural NEET autism and rewards them

>>510280053
Hmm
I wonder if disability is a form of shell money

>>510279581
>, but a cow can be represented by a monetary unit
A cow cant be represented by a monetary unit, or any kind of unit. You can take a photo of a cow which would not be a good description of the animal and it would still have tens of thousands of pixels, each represented by a number, at low resolution.
No single number represents a cow, its too much information

jidf kikes are itt

>>510280157
The parable of the master who pays his workers by the day

>>510275796 (OP)
Everyone in my town does as much 'work for work' as possible to avoid paying cash for services. I just power washed and scrubbed double wide pontoon boat for a brand new car battery and he's also going to fix a bad seal on my boat engine. No cash involved. This is normal here.

>>510280351
Im jealous

>>510280393
My goal is to just use money for rent, and barter everything else

>>510275796 (OP)
EVERYTHING is subjective, you retard, including ALL of your opinions on politics, morality, etc.
You can’t be this fucking stupid, can you?

>>510280560
>EVERYTHING is subjective
Not mass, angular momentum, temperature, speed, the position of something, etc

>>510278717
I would trade one pretty girl to have 10 ugly ones, thats good value.

>>510275796 (OP)
Physics has discovered "energy", it's measurement unit is Joule or calorie. Energy is used when the labour is performed.

poltards make the joke that a person cant a be an attack helicopter but then go on that actually they can, you just have to find the correct ratio of attack helicopter/person

>>510279636
Okay, well we agree on that. I will try to explain why what we use as currency cannot be arbitrary.

Imagine if we made copper currency.

If copper is money, the first thing that smart entrepreneurs would do would be to produce copper. Copper is fairly easy to produce, so the market would be flooded with copper. This would devalue the copper that you yourself hold. Hyperinflation would come about, we're all screwed.

>Its all based on the fashion of the time
>In india a cow is irreplaceable
>Natives use their shells as spirit money
>A plastic toy is worth 100$
>Aztecs used axe heads as currency

All of these things require some kind of scarcity in order to work as money. Some African countries used glass balls as currency and when the British came and started giving the africans glass balls (which the british could easily make), they totally fucked up the economy of these countries. Hyperinflation, you're fucked.

So I would posit that the first attribute of a currency needs to be a local scarcity.

>>510280454
That's the idea. Everyone is in a bad spot rn. Budgeting extra hard and spending more time on the weekend to expand their gardens for growing food. I live in a tourist town so all the local businesses gouge their fucking prices in the summer for when all the city folk are in town. It costs like 57$ just for a large bag of cat litter and a large bag of cat food. Usually it only comes to like 41 something. Even still, it beats spending 80$ in gas to and from the city. Twice a month we also have one of the school bus drivers make a round trip in to the city for free so people can get their groceries and prescriptions. I haven't taken it yet by my mom and a lot of the elderly people take advantage of it. I just might start going with my mom because fuck paying for gas rn.

>>510280039
I like that you have to cite a jew to dunk on me

>>510280039
So you're just gonna cite a jew and ghost me?

>>510280832
I suppose the scarcity today is just
Humanity

>>510282192
Typical American rhetoric

>>510282192
>So you're just gonna cite a jew and ghost me?
The topic of bananas isnt important. A banana is just a banana and doesnt have value. Value isnt real.

>>510280681
I’m talking concepts and practices by which humans coexist and live under, not physics, mathematics, etc. Outside of that which is static, EVERYTHING is fucking subjective.
Again, you can’t be this retarded, can you?

>>510282330
Spoken like a true idealistically minded young communist.
>You have to be 18 to post here

>>510282226
The US government creates artificial scarcity of its currency by making it illegal to produce any more of it, and they are actually able to enforce it. I wonder what part of increase of the money supply counterfeiting is.

>>510275796 (OP)
It's not about value, It's about how much people are willing to give you for it.

>>510282330
Do you have preferences for some things over others?

>>510282410
How do you go from value isnt real to communism? As far as i can tell communist rethorics use the idea of value all the time, claim they can calculate it and show how it gets stolen from workers. How can you steal a thing that doesnt exist?

>>510282226
Overpopulation was always a pseudo science. Every single developed country is experiencing demographic collapse. The billionaire elites of the 1800's and early 1900's literally fucked us because of their fears of overpopulation and 'useless eaters'
Like they fucked probably even harder than China fucked itself with its 1 child policy. Because at least the Chinese had to be coerced and threatened to only have 1 child. In the West, after decades and decades of demoralization and depopulation, our people are voluntarily not having ANY children at all.

>>510282467
>Do you have preferences for some things over others?
Yes but i dont invent a numerical ghost called value and say objects are possesed with this ghost

>>510282705
I totally hear you and I respect you

>>510275796 (OP)
Jewish (((merchants))) set prices, and the goyim are supposed to pretend that "the price is what it is".

>>510282819
Well, I don't claim that either. We both agree that keynesians and marxists are retarded.

If you have these preferences, you could conceivably rank them form things you prefer the most and things you prefer the least. I could then come in and say "A has a higher value than B", based solely on your preferences. The fact that something is literally more valuable to you means that it has higher value. But I wouldn't assign a number to it, that's impossible.

>>510275796 (OP)
Energy is also a value that is unphysical, yet you can trade it back and forth in different forms and it's useful to us.

>>510282705
You're depersonalizing the concept of value, and that's why it has become meaningless. Value is all about what a person thinks of an item. Is a Rolex valuable to me? No. I couldn't care less about a Rolex. It's worth nothing to me. What about a basket of blueberries? Yes, that's valuable to me, because I like blueberries. How much of my labor wages am I willing to trade for a basket of blueberries? 10 minutes' worth? Okay, fair enough.

>>510282819
I do though.

>>510275796 (OP)
Do you just not understand the concept of subjectivity and relative value?
Congratulations you accidentally realized why Marx was an idiot.

>>510283258
He prefers to cite jews and refuse to learn basic metaphysics.

>>510283258
>concept of subjectivity and relative value?
Subjective is code for nonsense

>>510283565
You're either retarded or a troll. Either way, imma be out

>>510283565
You don't do physics very often do you anon?

>>510283565
How about this. I value my life more than I value yours. If you corner me and threaten me, I will kill you.

>>510275796 (OP)
>Can a ham be a fish?
>Can a cow be 100 chickens?
No, but a ham can be worth a fish and a cow can be worth 100 chickens.

>The concept of value is unphysical, in any unit of account. Physics has not discovered a property called "value" akin to mass or volume.
So? Where's the actual argument?

>>510283675
>You don't do physics very often do you anon?
I have a degree in physics. If you now go le relativity i will let you know that both einstenian and galilean relativity have objective rules to calculate positions and speeds from any frame of reference. Yes, you can be at rest on the ground and also orbiting the sun at 30 km/s but such speed transformations are not subjective, they have precise and objective laws, they are objective

>>510277327
Value is a subjective feeling like love.
All objects are equivalently worthless as they are all the same inert matter slowly decaying due to entropy.
Rarity exists as an objective concept, but only so far as one can gage the relative abundance of different things.
Value is personal.
Some portion of it is tied to utilitarianism (what an individual might potentially do with a given object, but that varies between individuals).
The rest of it is sentimental, which is supremely personal.

>>510283900
>Where's the actual argument?
Things dont exist outside of physics. If they do they are supernatural, ghosts or superstitions

Its not subjective though.

Value is ultimately tied to human labour. But not all human labour. Just the necessary labour time, under specific conditions, to accomplish/produce a thing.

Meaning, if you spend 100 hours to make a dining table, it wont cost 100 hours in the market, you will have to sell it in the same price range of dining table produced by dining table industry.

One-of a kind objects (such as painting) (i.e. things that cant be mass produced) are not subject of the law of value.

>>510277327
i will keep using value while you can screech about it in a corner

>>510276213
This is true. Barter societies dont exist. David Graber ripped a hole in pseudoscience that is called economics.
Antropologists in general put economists to shame.
Economics ignores poeple history and reality. Astrology has more scientific rigor.

>>510284120
now THIS is a marxist.

>>510278717
Correct. This is why infinite growth is possible under capitalism.
Different people value different things differently, so if two people make a trade and both walk away with something they value more than what they got rid of, both have made a profit and total value has increased.
Yet another example of why communists are idiots.

>>510283999
But such transformations are not physical properties, but rather mathematical manipulations. And they are found through derivations that although mechanical in the context of math, math as a whole is entirely nonphysical.

>>510284086
>Things dont exist outside of physics. If they do they are supernatural, ghosts or superstitions
All of your "physics" is every bit as abstract as economic concepts. "Things" don't exist at all, strictly speaking.

>>510275796 (OP)
The merchant put “value” on tangible items while de-valuing the most important aspects of man like love, charity, and empathy.

>>510284208
>with something they value more than what they got rid of
Sorry but by definition a barter is the exchange of things of equal value, you cant do a trade where anyone "gains value".
If a cow is equal to 100 chickens, you can trade a cow for 100 chickens, in doing so you gain no value

>>510284354
Indians do this too. Their culture is based entirely around transactional relationships. They don't do favors and they don't do something nice for someone just for the sake of it. They have to be compensated or it's seen as weak. Like and Indian man is more likely to rape you on the side of the road than give you a boost or help you change a tire.

>>510280039
You could also not convince a monkey that he needs to give 90% bananas he picks to the long nose monkey because he owns a deed and a loicence to harvest a tree.

>>510279052
correct. we are being told how different the economic systems are be but it is hard to spot a difference at this point

Capitalist vs. Socialist Economies: What's the Difference?

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/082415/pros-and-cons-capitalist-vs-socialist-economies.asp

>>510276213
>Value is also the market value
To a degree, altho value is more of A market value rather than THE market value in that its localised
Bottle of water in the super market costs less than a bottle of water in the middle of a desert.

>>510284493
I have 10 billion chickens. I can part with one like it's nothing. I have a craving of milk, cream, cheese, and all things dairy,

I have no cow, but I must cream.

>>510284493
Stop ignoring my first two posts anon. >>510280351 >>510280869

>>510284697
>I can part with one like it's nothing.
Sorry but "like its nothing" isnt nothing
0.0000000000...001 isnt 0

>>510284849
I read these posts and i admire the situation, trust and solidarity shown by the people of your town

>>510280039
The monkey didn't develop the advanced modes of communication like speech or written language that could control their behavior. The civilized humans can be convinced of any kind of bullshit. Most of them are not capable of the effort required to refute the bullshit.

>>510284516
Indians are a slave race for last 3000 years. They have least amount of connection to original human behavior.

>>510284493
But the cow also produces milk in addition to meat and has a much longer life, thus offering potentially more profit when used as compared to the chickens as it can be milked, bred, and eventually turned to meat. And the amount of resources that can be squeezed from the cow vary based on the level of skill of the owner, thus, there can be no “equal and fair” trade in anything as there are far too many determining factors that alter the ability to extract maximum resources from one person to the next that will ultimately make the transaction either beneficial, or, unprofitable.
Thus, you’re correct that nothing has “value”, as all value is subjective and revolves around currency. Currency is the baseline, all things are then equated to a proposed value number under said currency, because without an agreed-on standard we subjectively set to create a baseline for trade, nothing would get done as everyone would spend their lives arguing over the value of items vs trading and prospering.

>>510284977
Well then, we do agree on some things.

>>510284208
>This is why infinite growth is possible under capitalism.
Its not possible its retarded. It goes against tehnological advancment.
If everyone had a robot that does everything for 10000 dollars economy would chrash. More you automate more goydp drops.

>>510275796 (OP)
Things can have intrinsic or extrinsic value.
Intrinsic value is the inherent value it has on its own. Extrinsic value is the value it has from how it it relates to something else.
The market price of a thing is the combination of its intrinsic and extrinsic value, based on what everyone in the market thinks it is worth.
You can get into gay philosophical musings about whether or not something can truly have absolute intrinsic value, or whether a dollar is inherently worth a dollar or whatever.

>>510284120
>One-of a kind objects (such as painting) (i.e. things that cant be mass produced) are not subject of the law of value.
That's why the art economy is one of the largest fields of investment. A very wealthy person can protect a significant portion of their wealth by investing in expensive art and sticking it all in some vault somewhere. And they do.

>>510279499
Nah, too perishable.
The defining traits of a viable currency portability, stability, and fungibility.
A good currency has to be easier to transport than most raw commodities it might be exchanged for, otherwise it makes more sense to just barter the commodities.
A good currency must be stable in that it's relative rarity does not change much with time (this is where most cryptos fail).
Bananas fail stability because their rapid rate of spoilage means their rarity changes too much.
They also fail fungibility (assuming other food is available).
Good currencies need to have a mutually understood usefulness.
Almost everybody needs to want the thing for them to be willing to trade for it.

>>510284493
No it isn't, you made that up

>>510284983
>The monkey didn't develop the advanced modes of communication like speech or written language that could control their behavior. The civilized humans can be convinced of any kind of bullshit. Most of them are not capable of the effort required to refute the bullshit.
Just like you're not capable of refuting the Jewish idea that bullshit needs to be considered and debated ad infinitum and """refuted""".

>>510287846
What? I consider it a waste of time.

>>510288626
>What?
Your own post implies that normies are so susceptible to bullshit because they're not smart enough to refute it. In truth, they've become infinitely more susceptible to it ever since TPTB started teaching them how to read and write, encouraging them to get involved in """intellectual""" matters, disseminating """rational skeptic""" ideology etc.

>>510289568
I misread your you're. It should be they're. Keep me out of this shit.

>>510275796 (OP)
sure, but value can kill you dead without warning, so you better respect it

>>510289968
>Keep me out of this shit.
Them stop posting their memes.

>>510275796 (OP)
you're a retard. economics is based on scarcity and need. i have a surplus of sugar you have a surplus of eggs. i need eggs. you want sugar. we trade.

retarded thread.
Only niggers don't understand basic economics.
säge

>>510290181
>their
my interpretation of the brandolini's law is that not refuted BS exists because of the cost we are unwilling or unable to spend to refute it. this should be quite enlightening to some.