Plato was objectively further right than any modern conservative intellectual, yet he effectively believed in gender equality. What are the political implications of this?

>>512378566 (OP)
>believed in gender equality
he was a naive faggot

>>512378566 (OP)
He was a smart faggot

>>512378566 (OP)
Socrates who beat his wife didn't beat Plato hard enough. That's the political implications. Bleach removes blacteria
https://youtube.com/shorts/50tWC6EShXQ?feature=shared

>>512378566 (OP)
>the ideal society is ruled by me, a faggot who does nothing but sit and write down opinions all day
I'm surprised I don't hear this retard idolized more by you self-absorbed spergs

>>512378566 (OP)
Because he lived in a world where women didn't have equal rights

>>512378566 (OP)
>he effectively believed in gender equality
lol, 10/10 bait.

>>512378566 (OP)
He was an Idealist and also a KEK which is the same thing in many ways

>>512378891
Looks like someone is crying

>>512379005
C.u.c.k

>>512378566 (OP)
They were all pederasts and were also sexually abused themselves as kids. All the gender stuff starts when Uncle Handsy goes for the no no hole.

>>512378566 (OP)
Conservatives believe in equal rights for everyone.
Just weirdos like Fuentes don't.

>>512378566 (OP)
Planton also had sexual relationships with young men/boys.
choose your side wisely.

>>512378566 (OP)
>Plato was objectively further right than any modern conservative intellectual
Where did you get this from? I heard someone say that before, can't remember who, some podcast I think.

>>512378566 (OP)
Also you need to provide a source for both or your statements.
a) Plato was objectively further right than any modern conservative intellectual
b) yet he effectively believed in gender equality

>>512378566 (OP)


“Please do not throw Plato at me. I am a complete skeptic about Plato, and I have never been able to join in the customary scholarly admiration for Plato the artist. The subtlest judges of taste among the ancients themselves are here on my side. Plato, it seems to me, throws all stylistic forms together and is thus a first-rate decadent in style: his responsibility is thus comparable to that of the Cynics, who invented the satura Menippea. To be attracted to the Platonic dialogue, this horribly self-satisfied and childish kind of dialectic, one must never have read good French writers — Fontenelle, for example. Plato is boring. In the end, my mistrust of Plato goes deep: he represents such an aberration from all the basic Greek instincts, is so moralistic, so pseudo-Christian (he already takes the concept of "the good" as the highest concept) that I would prefer the harsh phrase "higher swindle" or, if it sounds better, "idealism" for the whole phenomenon of Plato. "

- Nietzsche

>>512378891

Ya ok, Karl Popper.

The left hadn't even been invented back then

>>512379281

I got it from reading Plato. Have you read the Republic? There’s no other conclusion to be had. His ideal is an extremely regimented, hierarchical caste society based on eugenics.

>>512378566 (OP)
Source on that.

>>512380103
"Plato's views on gender equality, particularly in his ideal state, are complex and often debated. While he argued for women to be included in the guardian class, a role involving education and potentially leadership, he also acknowledged perceived differences in strength and temperament between men and women. Some scholars interpret his ideas as proto-feminist, while others find them limited by societal norms of his time"

>>512380383
Makes sense to me.

>>512379395

>you need to provide a source for both or your statements.
>a) Plato was objectively further right than any modern conservative intellectual

See >>512380024

>b) yet he effectively believed in gender equality

He believed men and women of the gold caste should be reared and educated the same way. He broadly believed men were more apt to rule, but wasn’t opposed to female leadership in principle and wanted women to be trained to lead in case they proved themselves capable. This is a far more egalitarian view on sex differences than what came after, despite the rest of his philosophy being far more right-wing.

>>512380629
Stupid men cause more problems than stupid women.
I would say the distribution should be like 70-30.

>>512378566 (OP)
Who cares what Plato thought?
Some of his stuff is interesting. Most of it is outdated.
Who hangs on every word written by a greek 2,500 years ago?

>>512380887
Well maybe with the exception of margret thatcher.

>>512378566 (OP)
He was against democracy and would not support women voting

>>512380967
Disagree thatcher was a closeted communist tranny shutting down and centralising industry

>>512380950
He influenced christianity. Judaism is as fundamental to that religion as platonism.

>>512378566 (OP)
imagine believing this. the greeks were harder on women than the romans were. not a chance plato believe men and women were equal.

>>512378566 (OP)
You confuse genders complementing each other with gender quality. Every great leader, like Hitler, recognized the benefits of women just as much as men. Women only hurt society when a parasite subverts them from within.

None of the faggot incels, or groypers are anything like actual Nazis. Real nazis from 1940 would have probably just thrown them in a work camp.

>>512379878
This, the bullshit concepts of left and right which have permeated every cell of our brains were not yet conceived back then. Even to this day it's just something told to the masses, because they can't understand things. The elite don't talk in the same terms when discussing among themselves as when talking to us, because they are bigbrains and we are smallbrains.

>>512381030

>He was against democracy

Generally speaking, yeah, but he describes each government type from best to worst and democracy isn’t at the bottom.

>would not support women voting

This is a redundancy. He didn’t want anyone voting, as you said yourself.

>Manchu men later adopted Han Chinese Confucian values and started killing their wives and daughters during the Qing for perceived infidelity due to talking to unrelated men while married or premarital sex, and prizing virginity and widow chastity like Han Chinese
t. Qing dynasty

>>512381065
You have to compare the average idiot man to the average idiot woman. There isnt much difference other than fehus love mass immigration as it seems.

>>512378566 (OP)
Nigga was a try hard to get laid.

>>512379878
>>512381134

The “left” is an essentially linear progression of thought, from Rousseau to Marx and modern cultural Marxist thinkers. The right is simply the absence of the left, or this line of ultra
-egalitarian thinking.

>>512378566 (OP)
>yet he effectively believed in gender equality.
nah, he was just being edgy in the Republic. his other writings contradict anything he says about female equality there. all the Greek philosophers were highly based on the woman question.

>>512381842
The right as it is today esp. in burgerland feasts on the idiocy of the left while they themselves do not have much of a substance.

>>512381955
There is also this joke "two leftist meet and three different parties were founded."

>>512381955

Yeah, our “right” is retarded, and not really right at all. They essentially hold all the same core assumptions as the left, but explicitly want everyone to be a wage-cattle who can be squeezed for every possible penny, and they call this “conservative”. It’s very Judaic. They lambast “European socialism” as if Bismarck was some commie.

This is our current gender equal overlords.

>>512381842
No. Left and right the way it's conceived by the unwashed masses is a bullshit concept. Left and right are purely mental constructs among the thinkers, and not the same mental constructs as we're fed, they're into dialectic.

>>512381884
Also you can't really trust what you read these days. I read about Greek philosophers somewhere and stumbled onto a bunch of allegations about them all being pederasts and whatnot. They've changed the classic example of a syllogism in the textbooks from:
>Socrates is a man.
to
>Socrates is a human.

>>512382921

>Left and right the way it's conceived by the unwashed masses is a bullshit concept.

That’s only because people are too retarded to know what it actually means. It’s a real distinction, being egalitarianism vs hierarchy.


>Left and right are purely mental constructs among the thinkers, and not the same mental constructs as we're fed, they're into dialectic.

What are “we” fed? Just don’t consume normie retard political slop, and actually read smart stuff. You can be a cognitive elite and intellectual without being part of the approved elite class. The material is out there and accessible for everyone to know these things.

Genders are not real. Sexes are.
Of course Plato believed in what every other pagan with common sense did. Balance.
>>512378853
Socrates was a prot-christian chud.
>>512379280
Complete horseshit made up by christcucks, liberals and marxists.

>>512383553
>It’s a real distinction, being egalitarianism vs hierarchy.
I disagree. Furthermore with the thinkers you mentioned such as Marx they didn't think of left and right the way we do, Marx was not a "leftist", he spoke of the dialectic, left and right as pure mental constructs are both in that.

https://youtu.be/L9Bme9IUjgQ

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xat490

>>512378566 (OP)
Hardly matters whether Women are equal to men if Men aren't even equal to men.

>>512378846
Plato was a dipshit. His Republic model of government failed. His ideals based ontologies is the source of all philosophical stupidity. He was the original redditor.

>>512378566 (OP)
>he effectively believed in gender equality
He did not.

>>512379005
>Idealist
As opposed to a materialist? Yes. How is that the same as being a c.u.c.k?

>In several dialogues, most notably the Republic, Socrates inverts the common man's intuition about what is knowable and what is real. While most people take the objects of their senses to be real if anything is, Socrates is contemptuous of people who think that something has to be graspable in the hands to be real. In the Theaetetus, he says such people are "eu a-mousoi", an expression that means literally, "happily without the muses" (Theaetetus 156a). In other words, such people live without the divine inspiration that gives him, and people like him, access to higher insights about reality. Socrates's idea that reality is unavailable to those who use their senses is what puts him at odds with the common man, and with common sense. Socrates says that he who sees with his eyes is blind.


https://youtu.be/h73PsFKtIck

>>512379491
>preferring Nietzsche to Plato
>wherein Nietzsche literally complains about "the Good"

lol at nihilists

>>512378566 (OP)
> he effectively believed in gender equality

file under the things that never happened

>>512386169
>Plato is pseudo-Christian!

and Jesus was pseudo-Horus.

>>512378566 (OP)
Plato was just trying to be fair on the level of principles, as in IF there happens to be some woman who is virtuous and intelligent, she should be treated accordingly. Nothing to indicate he actually believed the average woman is as capable as the average man. Or at least nothing that I know of.

>>512378566 (OP)
>What are the political implications of this?
Take a look around retard, we are the ones dealing with the implications

one stipulation, there weren't quite as many useless females around who managed to get old enough to look good enough to potentially seduce a powerful leader. good women were made good by decades of abiding by their husband. in platos time, being surrounded by people who deeply understood the concept of contamination it would have been common sense, and following the natural order to assume a man and woman were of equal legal status in his time. empowered feminine frailty is a modern thing, like a circus show, or television.

>>512386755
Cleopatra.

Egyptians enjoyed greater equality than the Greeks.

Hatshepsut is an even better example, being pre-Ptolemaic

heres the thing

Greeks fuck boys

>>512386920
Yeah and when they got invaded everyone were basicly naked and nobody had fought in a battle for generations

the noble (((LIE)))

>>512387226
Egyptian society reached far greater heights than the Greeks or Romans, and lasted for millennia.

The world has fallen for a long time now. The cycle of evil, corruption, and degeneration stretches back 6000 years. The true conservative must take that into account.

Jesus himself being a pseudo-Horus, as I alluded to earlier.

>>512378566 (OP)
theres no such thing as modern conservative intellectual

>>512379878
the "left" is rooted in spiritualism (over materialism).

>>512384797

>Marx was not a "leftist", he spoke of the dialectic

He didn’t identify as a “leftist” because the terminology hadn’t been popularized yet, and also, “leftism” is largely a reference to Marx himself, so it wouldn’t make sense for him to be using that language. The terms come from the French Revolution but the political dynamic has always existed, it’s just more specified with doctrinal ideologies and theory in the modern context.

>>512387739
Yeah I don't expect you to have a good faith discussion.

>>512387739

No, it’s the opposite. The left is purely materialistic. Marxism is fundamentally materialistic, and explicitly identifies as such.

>>512387855
huh?
why not?

>>512378566 (OP)
I wouldn't say gender equality, more like meritocracy, he specifically said if a man or woman can pass the challenges and tests then they can take the position, in that sort of sense, not free gibs and DEI shit.

>>512387193
based

>>512387892
marx's entire shtick was that capial (materialism in essence) was the biggest impediment from poeple awaking their true social nature (spirit)

>>512387739
The spiritual is egalitarian; and so God favours the poor and the oppressed, in order to keep things fair.

>>512387503
The true conservative is a faggot kike like all other politicians. Plato was onto something, democracy is absolute garbage at best and a nepotistic pedophile puppetshow at its center.

This is absolutely not even confusing either, you can literally measure how degenerate a country is by looking at the number of women in positions of power. Societies fail primarily because they stop being ruled by facts, logic and violence and start being ruled by feeling and intentions and a shattering void of foresight.

>>512388127
should have alienated

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation

>>512387805
I still disagree but it's a very strong and thick matrix at this point. The main thing that makes me disagree is what I've seen when reading about corporatism, crony capitalism, revolving door politics, lobbying, the concept of "corruption", dialectic etc. For me it was very illuminating to read about The United Fruit Company, The East India Company and the oil industry in Nigeria. In Nigeria you had rebels blowing up pipelines, then the oil corporation hired them to work as guards protecting the very same pipelines. That kind of stuff gets you thinking.

>>512385105

I took a couple classes on Plato in uni. He assumed there was some "ultimately correct" answer to everything... in some higher metaphysical realm... that mortals can't see...
He assumed the absolute certainty of mathematics could be applied to the more messy matters of human affairs like ethics, political science, aesthetics, etc.
A weird assumption to make and I don't think he really proved it either.

>>512388127

He presupposes that all human well-being is predicated on capital and material possessions. He thinks all higher forms of identity and spirit itself are just functions of material, and what the bourgeois inculcate in their subjects to serve their own *material* ends. He thought everyone would be happy and fulfilled if they just had more stuff and you see this reflected in modern leftists. They have no higher values, they just think it’s unfair that they don’t have more stuff.

>>512378566 (OP)
Plato studied Pythagoras.
Look up his final lecture.

>>512388266
... 6000 years of patriarchy, in which the world was conquered and destroyed, and in the end there's not much to show for it. The Great Pyramid is still unmatched.

>>512378566 (OP)
Plato was a no Alexander, that's for sure.

>>512378566 (OP)
He was a left-wing proto-christcuck, commie too

>>512388815
Nah, much of that was matriarchy, there's just no history of it because those societies all got smashed and conquered and had their males massacred and their females enslaved.

>>512388652

Yeah, the US govt fucks with weaker countries. How does that rebuke the left-right distinction?

>>512388966
The "Matriarchy" of the Golden Age was simply equal partnership, not domination by women.

>>512378566 (OP)
Plato was never married, he had no idea about women, he was basically a boomer incel.

>>512389116
That's not what the archeological or mythological record shows. There were certainly very depraved matriachies some of which kept control through ritual castration and things of that nature, not to mention all the ritual prostitution and other depravities.

And even if your assertion is correct that some mythologized golden age was egalitarian for the sexes, the fact still remains that those societies were universally unable to cope with societies that were patriarchal.


So I have to ask, are you trying to get all the men castrated or murdered and all the women forced to be sex slaves for foreigners?

>>512389122
If he was an incel, he'd read and know a lot about women.

>>512388704

Humans need struggle to feel fulfilled and grow into being decent people. If we made the Marxist utopia where everyone had their needs met without having to struggle - people wouldn't all become novelists and painters and whatever else he said would happen.

The majority would become become selfish pieces of shit and addicted to vices. Just look how often the children of the ultra rich often turn out (Hunter Biden, Jayden Smith, etc.)

A smaller minority would buck against the system and seek to burn it down - like Dostoevsky predicted in Notes from Underground which is about the futility of seeking utopia because it runs contrary to human nature

>>512388815
You are making my point for me, older nations who had gotten soft got destroyed by younger nations that still worked on violence and had not yet seen peace time in which women assume power either through corrupting their husbands that would otherwise have been away at war, or directly by being given power.

I have yet to see any nation get conquered by women who sing at them and bring immigrants welcome signs instead of battering rams

>>512388966
And to make things even worse, the marauding, uncultured barbarians from the far reaches, the people who ruined everything in Europe and the Mediterranean millennia ago, were white invaders from the Caucasus, and not even native to old Europe...

Even today, the marauding whites believe that might makes right; but they have it backwards, right makes might.

And so the societies of the wicked come to nothing.

>>512389694
Indo Europeans were from Europe, specifically ukraine. They were literal next door neighbors of the danubians.

The EEF (the people who built old europe)
were unlikely to have been matriarchal as they exhibited often genocided entire towns of men and took the women.

>>512389928
6000 years of patriarchy; one must correct for the biases of historians, especially white and male historians, who have greatly distorted the truth

>>512379491
Nietzche remains based. Aristotle is best boy. Nietzche's critique of stoicism was his only miss because straying from nature was a lot harder back then and even he wasn'tblack pilled enough on what we'll do to avoid actually living and he didn't hate the last man enough.

>>512389813
Marauding people ravage things. Whites are clearly less destructive when marauding than other groups. Obviously Sub-Saharan African marauders are currently genociding raping and burning entire ethnic groups right now, and the whites will never hold a card in terms of destruction to what the Muslims did.

>>512390069
Whose going to correct the corrected biases. You're obviously exceptionally dishonest about all of it, who would correct your bias?

>>512390137
While there is certainly violence, one cannot charge the Africans or indigenous peoples of the world with colonialism or capitalism. That was white men.

>>512378566 (OP)
>no quote
kill yourself jew

Whites have without question done more damage to the world than any other race.

>>512390284
It wouldn't qualify as colonialism as colonists brought new tech and enriched the area they went to. They also had a religion that was the antidote to the old savage religions that revolved around raping, killing and eating your neighbors. The current Sub-Saharan war lords are just destroyers. What they are doing and what the Muslims did was far worse than anything whites did, which was make the world better.

>>512390412
Without question whites made the world significantly better for themselves and everyone else.

>>512389608

Yes, that’s why I’m right-wing and not a communist. The most meaningful aspects of existence are immaterial, and leftism is a perverse rodent ideology for bug-men.

>>512388704
maybe that's what (modern?) marxist thinks.

marx's argued self-realization (or self-actualization) was something that existed beyond materialism.

>>512390412

You are free to go live the natural life of a browngroid as a savage Oonga boonga person in the woods if you want to. We might not let you be cannibals anymore but you’ll have to compromise on that one.

>>512391166

Marx’s entire theory is economistic. It sees all human activity and connection as animated by economics, thus materialism. It encourages people to extricate themselves of all deeper social ties and identify purely with their economic class, even if that entails people from other parts of the world who they have nothing in common with, solely so that they can agitate to get more stuff. It’s just as spiritually impoverished as the economic liberalism it holds as its opponent.

>>512391997
it seems like you are choosing the most uncharitable perspective.

and btw, i'm not a marxist.

>>512392327

I’m really not. If you ask Marxist thinkers, they will explicitly tell you that they are materialists. This isn’t even something that’s in question. If you want to reject materialism, be a Neoplatonist or a Christian.

>>512378566 (OP)
It means you should stop fucking applying modern interpretive lenses to your stupid fucking mutt eyes when reading history.
Philosophy is about the love of wisdom. It's not about dogmatism in it's purest form.
I bet my thermostat is on a greater number right now than your IQ you absolutely despicable wingcuck.

>>512392750
>If you want to reject materialism,
i don't. i'm an empiricist.

>If you ask Marxist thinkers
most are too sloppy.

>>512393128

>empiricist.

What does that even mean? What you conceive of as “the good” is fundamentally a moral judgment. It can’t be derived from empiricism or pure rationality.

>>512393055

This meme is for mid-wits and you’re a retard.

>>512378725
>>showed the world what "ideas" are
>>showed the world what the matrix is
>>could proof it by establishing forums or disputes about realism, physics and biology
>>like first semester of Plato:what is a table? Describe it. [everything with 4 legs and a plate on it].

Fucking distractor go fuck yourself so fucking deep and then hang yourself. And while you do, stream it for research.

>>512393335
is the distinction between good feelings and bad feelings learned or arise naturally?

>>512379252
fags like you dont deserve rights

>>512394065

They come from the conscience which is a mark of the divine and give us a telos. Are you gonna pull out the Reddit trap card and say “erm it’s just random chemicals”? If so, then you are in fact a materialist.

>>512379280
>>512384441

Thank you swedebro. It's so fucking frustating seeings ancient greeks (literally invetors of everything) being acused of fucking kids.

The asshats that say these thhings probably dont know that a being faggot in ancient Greece literally meant you lost all your political rights BY LAW. And if you tried to talk to the Agora, or be a lawyer, or testify, or sue you were punished BY DEATH.

And most of all who hated faggots is PLATO!!!
It is evident in many of his writings throughout his life

the only thing stupid shits bring up is the symposium which has the words εραστής and ερώμενος for teacher and student , and these words then had NO SEXUAL MEANING WHAT SO EVER.

Fucking kike propaganda smearing Ancient Greece

>>512393541
No, it's fucking true.

>>512379252

>>512378566 (OP)
>gender equality
No he wasn’t. He wasn’t a realist and advocated for gender based roles. Everyone in their rightful place. Men can’t give birth, they’re providers and warriors. Women can give birth, so they’re maternal carers and homemakers. You’re a faggot.

>>512378566 (OP)
Because he saw women at their best. They couldn't fuck around without finding out, sex always could result in conception, and adultery was punished by death. So all the whores were filtered out, leaving only the women who were loyal for life both by circumstance and because they were given as young unvaxxed virgin pussy in their teens to a man.

Women are beautiful when shaped by both society and a man while young, it's why historically it's rich women who were insufferable bitches, because they could afford to not obey rules. You'll find no sweeter woman than a grandma with 10 grandkids who married at 16.

They'll never be the equal of our greatest men obviously, no woman can reach the peak intellect, art, raw skill... of even the 100 greatest men in any field, but they can be equal to the average man in their use to society.

>>512394697

It’s not. It’s what you post when you found out a week ago that there are ideas beyond being a libtard or a republicuck but still don’t know what right and left even mean.

cba to go through this entire thread so i will simply say: you faggot niggers have never actually read plato and it shows. plato is one of the most difficult authors/philosophers/playwrights to parse insofar as multiple different styles are employed within the context of a singular dialogue and the dialogues as a corpus must be read evolutionarily (unlike for example that which we consider the kantian or hegelian corpus which is presented to us as "static")
quite literally almost every single european and in particular kant and nieztsche - in short, german idealists exlcuding hegel - got it wrong. hegel alludes to this but does not explicitly state it because the kantian perspective of plato, which itself is born from the absolute dominion aristotle had over scholastic and by extension european enlightenment era thought, was (and the analytic paradigm shift notwithstanding still is) considered inviolate.
do or do not, i dont give a fuck but if anyone ITT is interested in actually discerning what plato thought (which is arguably more essential than aristotle for critically engaging with post hegel developments), you must
>establish chronology (only in the 20th century did archeological and stylometric analysis advance enough to give us a decent chronology; kant, hegel, nietzsche, etc... almost all of their chronologies were incorrect)
>read every dialogue one by one
of the renown, the only one who almost got it was hegel