What are /pol/s thoughts on this book? I thought it was mind-blowing but I only started learning about economics recently

>>513531865 (OP)
What is it about? I have that book in my MEGA.nz for some reason

>>513531865 (OP)
only seen the documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Ac7ap_MAY

>>513532131
How the Japanese bank secretly planned Japan's economy through selective loans until it got sabotaged by people linked to Wall Street, then caused the massive bubble and crash of the 80s to force neoliberal economic policies. How banks can mass create credit to explode the economy

>>513532643
>How banks can mass create credit to explode the economy
you can blame jews, banks and so on, but people are dumb and allow this system to work, if they kept real money a.k.a gold and silver instead of debt notes, all this scam would not be possible, people are greedy and they pay ultimate price for that

>>513532984
I blame the banks and jews because they used the education system to hide the information

>>513531865 (OP)
looking to japan for economic advice or insights is fucking retarded lmao

you must be easily impressed

This guy has set his mind on everything in the early 90s and all his work since then is just using bits of evidence to prove what he already believes.

>>513533127
sure, but good parents should teached their kids to never trust the jew

>>513533159
That sounds like something a fed stooge would say sorry but you need better criticism of his claims than just personality attacks. I'm not an expert on this stuff but that is not convincing

>>513531865 (OP)
>>513532182
>>513532643
>>513533441

Richard Werner
Author of the book recent interview, excellent 170 minutes
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/511622826


BONUS:
professor Werner brilliantly explains how the banking system and financial sector really work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC0G7pY4wRE

>>513533441
I don't see a coherent reply.
>ad hominem (schizophrenic).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJwlKURL_X0

>>513531865 (OP)
he's an interesting guy with a very strong counternarrative to the mainstream of economics
but he has the same basic points that you will hear repeated in every interview:
>commercial banks create most of the world's money through lending
>interest rate manipulation is reactive not proactive (ie. the opposite to what they say it does)
>everyone that did quantitative easing did it wrong
>lending for asset purchases is detrimental to the economy
>central bank money creation for consumer spending leads inevitably to inflation 18 months later
>central banks are pushing for more control through cbdc and market consolidation
he was also pushing his own shitcoin for a while, but hasn't been shilling it much recently because it was clearly just a case of jumping in on a fad
anyway, i like him. he's smart, and has a consistent viewpoint based on his own opinions, though there are some huge gaps in his analysis that are common to most economists (energy has no input in their models)

He doesn't believe that people landed on the moon. There's hardly a conspiracy theory he doesn't endorse.
He's also a sort of non-denom protestant.

>>513533816
You didn't criticise any of his claims beyond "they're dated" without elaborating. Apparently he was blocked from even publishing the book in America and had to remove the chapter where he met Alan Greenspan of the fe. At least explain why you think he is wrong if you are knowledgeable on this subject

>>513533914
>commercial banks create most of the world's money through lending
1.
https://youtu.be/CvRAqR2pAgw?t=59
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2014/q1/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy
2.
https://www.bundesbank.de/en/tasks/topics/how-money-is-created-667392
3.
https://www.norges-bank.no/en/news-events/publications/norways-financial-system/2023-nfs/web-report-2023-nfs/
4.
https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/hub/publications/bulletin/2023/rbb-2023-86-01

But that money has to be accounted for, once the debt is paid it's destroyed from the economy. Its impact remains to be fair and most people do not pay their debts immediately.

>>513533914
>shilled his own crypto
source?

>>513532643
> How the Japanese bank secretly planned Japan's economy through selective loans until it got sabotaged by people linked to Wall Street
It was not sabotaged by Wall Street, the governing body of the BoJ was installed by the Americans post WWII. Japans secret war economy “window guidance” was a multi decade orchestrated plot from the very beginning.

If you want to truly gaze into the abyss, read Silent Weapons for Quite Wars and pretend everything your reading about is being prototyped in Japan from 1950-1990, because that’s exactly what they did. The application of war-time operational logistics to the domestic economy for the purposes of establishing full spectrum control over the domestic population. Facilitated by monetary inductance: the purposeful expansion and contraction of credit to create boom busts cycles which consolidates wealth and financially represses the masses.

>>513533140
Japan is where the global banking kikes have developed and tested all their macro economic machinations for decades. Japan is the philosophical root locus of the entire macro economic universe. Do you understand the implication.
>pic rel

>>513533159
>>513533918
Notice this one attacks the man, not the ideas. Pity is a history book, you must attack what is presented as history for you to be taken seriously, nigger.

>>513531865 (OP)
Reading it right now, but I'll have to finish Hjalmar Schacht's memoirs first.

>>513533914
>lending for asset purchases is detrimental to the economy
he says that it should be dictated by policy, controlled for, for example move it to non bank lending

>central bank money creation for consumer spending leads inevitably to inflation 18 months later
his point is that inflation is usually felt 18 months after a large monetary supply spike give or take

>central banks are pushing for more control through cbdc and market consolidation
he's saying that central banks gain more power, which you can track by what legal reform give them after a crisis that usually they've caused or feed into instead of managing

>everyone that did quantitative easing did it wrong
Somewhat yes, he came with the concept to begin with.

>lending for asset purchases is detrimental to the economy
boom boost cycles are bad yes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0

>>513534252
dumb ass quoter

>>513534047
i know its correct. i was restating his talking points
he says that lending should preferably go into something that will boost gdp, like small business loans to help with equipment upgrades etc, to stay competitive, but that banks, when too large and centralised, dont want to deal with that sector of the economy
>>513534095
look up valhalla network, its run by one of his ex students and werner was on board at the beginning

He himself admits that he first came with his ideas as a revelation fro God directly only then he begun to find the proper evidence to justify it, applying the inductive method to prove what he already believed.

This is something which admittedly can be used by any of you people to prove anything under the sun.

>>513531865 (OP)
The true redpill is read about John Law in France and modern bankers thinking this was a good model

>>513534283
>he came with the concept to begin with.
no, he found it when studying the historical operations of the bank of japan
the term is a literal translation from the japanese
he merely recapitulated the idea for western economies, after having proposed it to japan as a way to get them out of recession

>>513534437
lol

>>513531865 (OP)
Yes, the entire economic system is controlled by groups. Who is on /pol/ and doesnt realize that voooting, campaigning, entrepreneuring etc etc. doesnt change anything.
The only battle is the groups and families on top fighting for the control of the money and who they will let be their executive arm (politicians and businessmen).
This game in its modern form has been played since the 1900s and we are still "revealing the truth" as if this is some deep hidden secret.

Go apply for another job and pay your taxes, goy.

>>513534573
the concepts predates Japan, it's the credit creation theory but in the form he puts it he created it, Quantity Theory of Disaggregated Credit, check the image. He also re-stated it with many details in countless interviews.

>>513534283
>>everyone that did quantitative easing did it wrong
>Somewhat yes, he came with the concept to begin with.
he didnt come up with it. He just created an academic term for it and promulgated it until it came back to the central banker elite that already knew these mechanisms.

>>513534573
Oh you meant QE. Well give me a source that Japan ever did QE before that.

>>513534760
empirical evidence, citation, source?

>>513534678
he sued his former university for discrimination against his christian faith and won

>>513534767
gpt 5 is a bit more confused

>>513534767
his whole point is that the bank of Japan did quantitative easing in the 1930s and again as economic recovery in the earlier decades after the war.
Subsequently in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s they purposefully did a fake QE scheme. His whole point of the book you moron as to why japans economy has not recovered since then is because they are not QE as they once did before the planned economic attack against japan. Maybe actually read his book?

>>513534793
>empirical evidence, citation, source?
Werner, Princes of the Yen, chapters 1-5, Tokyo 2001.

>>513531865 (OP)
I saw the documentary, which is pretty dry like most economics. The lessons are good though:
>credit guidance to growing parts of the economy grow your economy
>credit for purchasing of existing assets is non-productive and should be limited

Richard Duncan is even dryer, and has very few quality free videos, however his basic premise is:
>USA creates most of the currency in the world (due to being trade and reserve currency)
>USA benefits most from this counterfeiting
>the country that receives the $ receives next most
>then inflation and hoarding has reduced the benefit of the counterfeiting for those who receive it later
>this explains why Germany, Taiwan, Japan, Korea and now China's economies grew so quickly
>when USA shifts trade to India China will stagnate like Japan

>>513534767
the source is werner's own mouth
he says in one of his talks or interviews that he just translated the term literally from japanese which is why it is so ugly sounding
whether they ever implemented it is irrelevant
as if i can be fucked to find it again, dont ask
just watch everything you can find by him like i did three years ago

>>513534918
he also says MMT is one of these subsersive terms trying to co-opt the QE and credit creation narrative to bring it back fully under the central bankers (or whoever is the current money bag holder) power by obfuscating methods and shifting focus away; also limited hangout.

>>513534856
>literal ai user
filtered

>>513535039
Damn then this guy is a fucking mess of lying and schizo beliefs.

>>513534805
>In June 2019 he briefly “won” by default—after the university failed to attend/respond, an employment tribunal entered judgment and a very large award (reported as roughly £3.5m).
damn he's loaded
>But that default judgment was later set aside when the tribunal allowed the university to file a late response; the Employment Appeal Tribunal upheld that decision in October 2021. The case was then set to proceed on the merits.
>Werner’s appeal against that was dismissed by the Employment Appeal Tribunal on 26–27 October 2021
Nvm he never got paid.

>>513535038
>USA creates most of the currency in the world (due to being trade and reserve currency)
>USA benefits most from this counterfeiting
is this the dollar milkshake theory?

>>513533918
Ok? He’s right on all 3 counts

>>513535220
How would you justify it?

>>513535038
I don't think it was dry at all.

>>513534661
The biggest folly in life is to think everyone is on the same page as you. Plenty of people can be kept on the dark about this stuff their entire lives. The official channels of education and mainstream media are totally dominated by bureaucracy and financial interests and many younger people are practically illiterate and don't even read books, they just get their opinions from algorithm promoted talking heads. So this sort of information is not as easy to come across as you might think

>>513531865 (OP)
It's a great book. Recommend this one as well. More info on credit creation and how debt is a moral and philosophical scam.

>>513535368
Here’s a thread I archived on the topic sometime ago with deeper connections to the Open Society and the Asian Financial Crisis
> https://archive.is/L3H5G

> There is probably no country in the world that has changed its economic, political and social systems in a significant way without a crisis.
> It is the crisis, that convinces citizens and interest groups of the need for change.
> Well then how can you achieve this? Well, you need a crisis. And the best way to create it is to have a bubble, because that's how nobody stops you.

the central bank didn't need to actively destabilize the system. All they had to do was get it addicted to infinite debt, and then pull the rug. The collapse after that was just organic because no one knew what to do without being told what to do.

>Bankers were left almost helpless. They complained that they did not know how to make their lending plans anymore. They became so fearful, that not only did they stop lending to speculators, but restricted loans to everyone else.

Like giving a heroin addict unlimited heroin, and then forcing them cold turkey in an instant.

The crux of the guys thesis is that regular banks create entirely new money when they issue loans not just multiply the amount of existing money that the central bank issued via the fractional reserve effect.
I haven't actually read his book, but every time he explained the fine details of how this works in podcasts/the documentary I failed to follow so I'm a bit skeptical.

>>513538280
American banking interests leveraged japans war economy for domestic production through credit creation, and then used the conditions of the post 1992 crisis to fund its own sovereign debt. This is basis of the Yen carry trade that has been used by the US Treasury as a major source of funding for more than 30 years. BOJ kept rates on GoJ bonds extremely low, even experimenting with negative rates. This forced capital to flee the country chasing yield in other markets, specifically the UST market.

Who buys all the government of Japans bonds then? The BOJ does, and has for more than 30 years. The BOJ owns almost 60% of the entire GoJ bond market. The Yen and the Japanese Bond market are welded.

>>513533859

Also see the YT clip of professor Werner here >>513533663


>>513534047
>How money is created

Must watch:
'97% Owned'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcGh1Dex4Yo

>"The real money to be made in the world today is not by producing anything at all. It's simply by forms of speculating — basically making money from money. That's the most profitable, and by far and away the biggest form of economic activity in the world today."
— Nick Dearden (quoted in the documentary '97% Owned')

>>513538431
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_dBKAWHHQI

This video will explain it. He takes Werner’s paper (Can banks create money out of nothing) which has snapshots of the bank’s balance sheet during his experiment and breaks it down clearly showing instantaneous creation of of both liabilities and assets.
It’s really not difficult to grasp once you accept that the entire scheme of banking used today is a delusion. It’s just a lever, and whomever own the ledger can do with as it wills and its always “correct”.

>>513538431
I would recommend reading his paper in which he details the experiment through which he proves credit creation. It's a very easy read and he explains the three competing theories succinctly
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1057521914001070

If you like I can try to answer specific questions you have a well. This is an important topic.

>>513535187
No,
the 'dollar milkshake' (<--Brent Johnson's) theory is that the USD denomination, being the world's default reserve unit is the most in-demand for all forms of transactions, sovereign debt payments therefore the dollar is always at the top pole position of every other currency denomination worldwide, everyone wants to exchange in favor of/for USD (in order to make other payments-transactions for whatever purpose)

Not all the dollars issued by the U.S. Federal Reserve and Treasury, are 'always around' or circulated, vast quantities are squirreled away
You need to learn about the hidden global eurodollar network (which mostly is also denominated in USD)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_ylvc8Zj8

>>513539315
See '97% Owned' immediately above (You)r post.

>>513539583
an excellent brief interview with Professor Werner
was posted here >>513533663
>professor Werner brilliantly explains how the banking system and financial sector really work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC0G7pY4wRE

>>513535187
>is this the dollar milkshake theory?
Sort of. The guy who came up with dollar milkshake theory really delved into credit creation. His hypothesis was basically that the dollar will suck up value because countries don't really have viable reserve currency alternative. He actually explains his theory pretty well in this debate he participated in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19xHntPZVvg

>>513539741
Seen it but more info is always good. I always try to lead people to the paper since that's the most rigorous proof.

>>513539758
*didn't really delve into

>>513539758
Yes Brent Johnson's theory by his own open admission is not 'complete', rather it's best-attempt to explain a vast complex operational topic and distill it overall.
One of the ways that, for example, the BRICS is attempting to 'counter' the dollar's predominance and 'sucking upward' motion trend, is by diminishment of the dollar's (and by extension the west's) dominance, they can't create a competing currency but by trading among themselves in their own local currencies their own central banks can also load up gold onto their balance sheets in lieu of USD; metaphorically the local currencies inter-trade becomes a 'checking' account and the gold in central banks' balance sheets the 'savings' account. In this way, even though the BRICS nations themselves lack strong unity, they are broadly counter-'sucking' away at the USD global 'milkshake'

>>513539815
Right I'm just adding to the thread options, his writings are important and the one you linked particularly so

>>513534793
There paper where he proves it https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1057521914001070

Literally from the abstract:
>This paper presents the first empirical evidence in the history of banking on the question of whether banks can create money out of nothing.

>>513540223
That doesn't prove that Japan already had QE before he conceptualized it.

>>513540223
Also (see above ^^^^ archive.4plebs link for all anons) Werner discusses the paper in light detail, during the 7/28/2025 interview with Tucker Carlson.
It's a must watch 170 minutes. Worth taking notes and rewatching for both newcomers and seasoned experts

>>513538431
They do but eventually the central bank checks on them and they're forced to clear their accounts so for every random newly created entry and money that they've moved out they have to put up the central bank reserves.

>>513539654
97% owned is a good documentary but the video I posted is a breakdown of Werner’s experiment specifically. It’s unequivocal in its conclusion. Much of the commentary in 97% owned is on the basis of Misesian Fractional Reserve theory, where they still think bank deposits (savings) have any bearing on a banks ability or function in create creation when they do not.

>>513540135
Yeah I think the easiest way to disentangle the two theories is to remember that all these countries' currencies are credit based. ZAR is credit created. CNY is credit created. That doesn't make them dominant. The US is the reserve currency because of military hegemony, esp. via the petrodollar.

>>513540428
So it's more of a... the system is very lazy and there's also an understanding that it should be lazy for at least a buffer all the time and don't stress it so that the entire system is always full gears on.

>>513540280
I don't understand what you're arguing? Werner's paper proves credit creation theory is how banks create money. QE is a separate issue, though of course predicated on credit creation being real. Werner doesn't claim to have invented QE. He says as much in his interview with Tucker.

>>513540546
The topic was Japan having had used QE before he wrote about it. You cannot randomly join a chain and insist that you want to talk about something else and that you're confused that people from that chain do not want to focus on that alone.

>>513540422
Yeah I've seen the Tucker interview. It's probably the best into for normies and the best summary of his overall ideas.

>>513534449
He sounds based as fuck. You sound like a beta fag.
>NOOOOOOOOOOOO ONLY THE BIG BANKS ARE ALLOWED TO DESCRIBE THEIR ACTIONS!
FAGGOT

>>513540659
Damn anon, you wrote all that retard shit? Cringe.

>>513540428
> so for every random newly created entry and money that they've moved out they have to put up the central bank reserves
No they don’t, they only ever need to make sure their balance sheets are balance at the END OF EACH DAY. Hence the function of the repo market, to shift bank reserves around the banking system as needed. Every banking entity therefore only has to show that they are temporarily liquid on an infinitely rolling basis.
>no you see I’m not bankrupt because I borrowed all this hypothetical bank money from all these other banks that I’m going to give back to them tomorrow (+plus a tiny interest) and do the same thing from now until forever
>nothing bad can ever happen to me

>>513540428
>they do create money and it's okay because then they give the created money to the central bank and the ledgers are all aces and clean
So banks do a thing they're not allowed to do, and then give the money which has no actual physical representation beyond numbers on a page to the central bank who doesn't punish the bank for doing a thing only the central bank is allowed to do.

You don't see a problem with this? I do. It's called "CURRENT SOCIETY WHERE EVERYONE IS A SLAVE AND NO ONE EXCEPT THE BANKS OWNS ANYTHING".

>>513540719
Coming from the guy who is writing retarded cringe shit. Lol miss me with your gay shit, faggot

>>513540989
If a bank issued many loans and not they have to desperately account for the money with central bank reserve towards the other banks that economic actors have moved the money around they don't have many options but to borrow over night from other banks at a high interest rate, if every bank were to do it for having done the same they would

>>513541327
This is pure word salad and you're full of shit. A bank can have no assets and still issue loans by creating money. This was true before central banks even existed.

>>513541202
Damn that's dumb.

>>513540608
It is.

>>513540431
>fractional reserve
That's only the first part of '97% Owned' explaining how *national banks* (not the central bank) creates money to lend. It's not the 'basis' of commentary in the film, many different experts and academics are interviewed on a range of topics, beyond even central banking into the CIty of London, post-1970s Financialization of the global economy, derivatives/speculative debt instruments, etc. during the 2-hour documentary '97% Owned'.
Central banks are the ones at the top of the chain creating currency in conjunction with sovereign treasuries aka monetary policy (fiat currency being issued by the central bank + nation's treasury issuing debt notes aka bonds for each unit of fiat currency)

>Werner's experiment specifically
Yes it is interesting.

>>513541431
Yea anon a trillion people can go to a small town bank in Germany, issue 100 loans, start a business and just transfer the money to the account of Americans, Swedish providers etc. no one would check it up.
When was the last time you';ve actually read bank laws?

It's not my fault you cannot comprehend basic prose, you're on level 1 of text comprehension.

>>513541075
They are allowed to it, even the Romanian law says that there's a clearing period before they have to account for everything an clear retards, read the laws.

>>513541628
>When was the last time you';ve actually read bank laws?
>read the laws.
Cite the the laws. You're the only person ITT who hasn't posted evidence of their claim (you can't, because the laws show credit creation is real)

As to the rest of the twaddle you wrote, the mere existence of any form of regulations on banks doesn't disprove credit creation (or anything else).

>>513540440
Another way to frame it is, that USD is the 'prettiest belle at the ball' (a global soiree consisting entirely, including USD, of debt note fiat currencies or 'created credit')

the word credit comes from Latin
>credere = to believe

>>513541327
Bank reserves are not part of the money supply though, so that borrowing bank is not borrowing deposits from other banks, they are borrowing reserve balances, which are pure fictions created by the FED to facilitate the entire scheme of infinite credit creation. You are needlessly obtuse and clearly disingenuous. Your posts lack any clarity or coherence of thought, and you refuse to engage deeper with the underlying subject matter.
You are a FAGGOT, possibly a shill. But definitely the former.

>>513531865 (OP)
Lemme guess
>jews subverted japanese central bank
Anything I missed?

>>513532643
So japs wanted to plan comeback and revenge and got outplayed by jews?

>>513533918
Based. This nigger believes in jew landing kek

>>513534856
What a moron

>>513534252
So wait, I'm a little confused. Why did the BoJ promote a planned pro Japanese financial policy then do a heel face turn in the 80s if they were always an instrument of US finance?

>>513537773
>The biggest folly in life is to think everyone is on the same page as you.
we are literally on the same webpage mate.

>>513543347
Because psychopaths are sadistic and like to toy with their food

>>513531865 (OP)
There's a utube video on this too.
You can't have a better introduction to macro economics that watching or reading about this.
And then take the various topics and dig in further. There are some good utubers online. But what happened with Japan in the 90s, is evolving here in the west too.

Bank accounting is reversed. The currency units they create are 'liabilities' to the bank. They can create an unlimited number as long as they have offsetting 'assets', which are the IOUs created by the borrower. Assets = Liabilities. Every time someone takes a loan, new currency is being created.

The bigger issue is that banks only create principal, not the interest. It creates a scenario where it is an impossibility for the people in debt, in aggregate, to service their loans. As a result the system requires an ever increasing amount credit creation to keep the game going. Credit creation eventually goes exponential, an asymptote, until the currency collapses, a complete loss of faith by the users. This will happen eventually, the timing is unknown.

>>513543347
> Why did the BoJ promote a planned pro Japanese financial policy then do a heel face turn in the 80s if they were always an instrument of US finance?
Japan was the testing ground for all Keynesian Macroeconomic policy. You don’t just roll out your ideas to the rest of the empire before knowing a little bit about how they work. The baking interests allready had a very good grasp of the power of credit creation but they had never used it in a war economy for domestic production. The BOJ was also at the time technically subservient to the Japanese ministry of finance, which controlled fiscal policy. The BOJ (ie global banking interests) wanted total control of both monetary and fiscal policy, which they got by creating a massive credit bubble, letting it burst, prolonging the recession until calls were made for institutional change, and then finally the MOF was blamed for the whole thing. The BOJ was then given total autonomy as part of the post 92 crisis reforms.
It was never pro Japanese it was pro Banker, disguised as economic success; The bubble.
> It is the crisis, that convinces citizens and interest groups of the need for change.
> Well then how can you achieve this? Well, you need a crisis. And the best way to create it is to have a bubble, because that's how nobody stops you.

This destruction of Japan laid the foundation to create the Yen carry trade, a key mechanism for funding the US Treasury market.

>>513544288
Perfect summary. And not just this, but as tech gets better, problems get permanently solved. Even in a perfect scenario where you "intelligently" create credit to finance "real growth" you eventually run out of growth opportunities. Credit creation/lending at interest is incompatible with technological and social sustainability, no matter how perfectly executed.

>>513544288
>The bigger issue is that banks only create principal, not the interest. It creates a scenario where it is an impossibility for the people in debt, in aggregate, to service their loans. As a result the system requires an ever increasing amount credit creation to keep the game going.
Why not skip the whole interest step then or have it very very low at like 0.1%?
Why give the money creators even more money?

>>513541628
No, this is when a bank goes bust.

When transactions are made that lead to money leaving the bank, the bank has to back it up with real money.
If it runs out of money it goes bust.

Look the right side is the Assets of the bank and on the left side are the Liabilities:

|Assets |Liabilities|
|--------------|------------|
|cash 8000| A:2100 |
|loan1 100 | B:2000 |
|loan2 200 | C:2200 |
| | D:2000 |

A, B, C and D "deposit" 2000 each at the bank.
A takes a 100 loan(loan1).
C takes the 200 loan(loan2).

The left side is just the Banks record of how much it owes you.

If A were to pay C 100, then the bank would just edit the line of A to 2000 and the line for C to 2300.
Once C pays his 200 debt then the bank will correct its line to 2100 and loan2 is "destroyed".

More in the next part.

>>513544860
Markets set interest rates based upon a variety of factors. Would you loan me your money at 0.1%?

>>513544860
Any amount of interest besides zero will have the same effect, just more slowly. You can't pay back $100.01 with $100, no matter what.
>Why give the money creators even more money?
Well nobody wants to, it's a scam backed up by violence and the threat of homelessness.

>>513544880
(Sorry for the misshaped balance sheet in the last post, it looked fine when I wrote it)
Now if you add another bank to the system:

Bank A---------------------------Bank B

|Assets-----|Liabilities|<<<|Assets-----|Liabilities|
|--------------|------------|<<<|--------------|------------|
|cash 8000| A:2100 |<<<<|cash 200--| D:300 |
|loan1 100 | B:2000 |<<<<|loan 100---|
|loan2 200 | C:2200 |
|--------------| D:2000 |


If D wants to move it's 300 in Bank B to C in bank A, then Bank B is in deep shit, or in other words bust.
It can't move 300 to Bank B, it has at most 200.
This is probably when a commercial bank goes bust.

>>513544880
>The left side is just the Banks record of how much it owes you.
The Right side, sorry.

>>513545163
Interest rates are an illusion too. Banks make money out of nothing. The cost of doing it is always 0. (Any market factor) x 0 is still 0.

>>513545570
Interest is the cost of money, opportunity/risk, and has always existed for as long as people have been engaged in commerce. We have records of interest rates going back over 5,000 years.

Banks can go bust if they make too many bad loans & those loans are held by everyone in the world via savings accounts, pensions, retirement funds, corporate balance sheets, etc... Little more complicated than simple accounting.

>>513544880
>>513545293
> When transactions are made that lead to money leaving the bank, the bank has to back it up with real money.
If it runs out of money it goes bust.
What are you calling real money in this context? If the deposits (liabilities) leave one bank and go to another, then along with the deposits moving there is also a movement of bank reserves from the leaving bank to the target bank. This both balance sheets remain balanced.

If the deposits leaves in cash, then there is a draw down of reserves, which is just to say nothing really happens. The amount of cash that is withdrawn relative to all of credit transactions is so infinitesimally small that it just gets lost in the noise.

A commercial bank only goes bust when the central bank desires it to go bust. Because of the nature of bank reserves as both a solvency and liquidity mechanism, and the fact that bank reserves are created by the central bank at will, if the central bank wants to save the commercial bank it has infinite ability to do so by creating new reserve balances. The central banks are themselves wholly owned by the largest commercial banks anyways so it’s one big club, that occasionally sacrifices one of its own appendages, and many smaller regional banks, in the ongoing process of consolidation. In 1929 there were 25,000 banks in America, by 1940 there were 15,000, by 2024 there were less than 5000.

>>513534252
>Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars
Interesting document.
Operations Reserch which is the application of analytical methods to improve management and decision-making arose during World War Two and then was rolled out to control the civilian population.
One thing the document emphasizes is the key importance of energy and its control.
As background to understand Silent Wars I think it is valuable to read the works of Vaclav Smil.
He's an expert in energy and is Bill Gates favourite author. Gates has interviews with him and reviews of his books on his website. He also said he has read all his books which number about 38.
When you read the books of Smil you start to understand the importance of energy and energy control to civilization. Such things as food production, technological development and population growth.
You also understand the objective behind the climate change narrative which is to gain centralized control of energy and food production which enables you to control the numbers of people and their activities.
This also concerns money.
Silent Wars compares the financial system to energy flows and thus talk about carbon credits and central bank digital currencies starts to make more sense.
Two books by Smil that are worth reading are
Energy: A Beginners Guide
Energy and Civilization

>>513545570
the justification for charging interest on a loan is that it's the reward for risking 'your money' (ie. the bank reserves), along with whatever collateral might be involved to back the borrower
that theory only works if it can be shown the bank is drawing down its reserves to hand the money over
this is why werner's work is dangerous to the system, because it exposes the lie that making a loan has a cost to the bank, it clearly doesnt because they risk nothing in the deal (they havent given away any of their assets)
the second part involves the fact that they can then turn the loan contract into a financial instrument to sell on as an asset in itself and that's what can come back to bite them in the arse if they end up with too many 'assets' that have turned to garbage, thus you get the 2008 crash scenario

>>513546128
>Interest is the cost of money, opportunity/risk
This is a banker's lie. It costs the bank nothing to write a number in a ledger. Do you think it takes more effort to physically write/type the digits $100 vs $100,000?

>>513546636
The bank offers no consideration when they create a loan, I agree with you. They loan what they do not have in the first place.

>>513547058
Right. So as a consequence, there isn't a real cost of (credit created) money. If someone were lending something that really existed, like gold, machinery, whatever, some kind of interest might be acceptable based on risk, return, the market, whatever. Properly speaking it costs me nothing to write into a database I down that you have 1 imaginary token vs a million imaginary tokens. It's whatever they banks feel like/what serves their interests.

>>513547058
>>513546636
>>513546507
And if the bank offers no consideration in the creation of the “loan”, then they can suffer no injury due to the failure to repay said “loan”. Do you see the danger of this implication becoming widespread? That which cost them nothing to create also costs them nothing to have uncreated through discharging of the debt. Were this understanding to become widespread, and indeed permeate the judicial stem in particular, the entire debt based monetary system would be discovered intellectually bankrupt and come undone.
That’s why when Greenspan and Bernanke talked about this years ago briefly, they suddenly found themselves in high positions of power and wealth. The silence is bought.

>>513531865 (OP)
>>513532182
I'll check it out. This one was game changing for me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZyQbNl6Dss
https://preservetube.com/watch?v=JZyQbNl6Dss

>>513547605
Banks don't set the rates, participants in the debt markets do. And they do so with full knowledge that federal reserve notes are not money, but an ever depreciating currency.

What I said before on this topic is that if there is continual inflation, the results are like in hyperinflation but on a slow scale. The effects of hyperinflation seem to be, breakdown in law and order, wiping out of savings, mass poverty and bankruptcy and unemployment, reversion to a primitive state of existence, flight of those with the means to other societies, and desperation to not be holding the currency, development of an alternative economy outside of the dollar (crime and black market). All of this is what seems to be happening, we are like Weimar but on a slower scale. It cannot be overstated how important it is that the dollar should be a stable store of value as well as a means of exchange. If the dollar value is stable, then the man on the street who is thrifty and industrious is rewarded. If the dollar value continually diminishes, then the man on the street who stocks up dollars is punished, and the man on the street who spends them as soon as he gets them is rewarded. This punishes capitalists and workers, and rewards thieves and gamblers, just like in a hyperinflation but in slow motion. In hyperinflation, everyone is trying so hard to get rid of their dollars that no one saves up for emergencies and big investments. Therefore factories don't get made and communities in an emergency don't have any reserves. If a nation wants to be an industrial power, constant inflation is the wrong way to do it.

>>513545163
if i create a ficitonal 100$ and you will pay me that "back" then yeah, ill take any excuse to get money given to me.
>>513545250
so skip it all together.
Having to "give back" the 100$ is already incentive enough for people to pay back.

>>513531865 (OP)
All this is well and good, but what do I, Joe consumer with no money to invest in anything, do to make any of this help me in the least? Invest the money I don't have into gold and property?

>>513548069
I'd gladly take all that you offer and buy T-bills with it earning the spread in a risk free arbitrage.

>>513547660
Another outstanding documentary is Bill Still's 'The Money Masters'
a graduate seminar on the history of banking

>>513531865 (OP)
It's very straightforward and actually lines up very well with Modern Monetary Theory, which has also been around for quite a while at this point.

Creating more productive assets lowers inflation in the long term because it a) increases supply or b) lowers production unit costs.

"Printing money" is not inherently a bad thing.

>>513547645
>And if the bank offers no consideration in the creation of the “loan”, then they can suffer no injury due to the failure to repay said “loan”.
Exactly. It's even sneaker from a moral perspective. It is argued simultaneously that interest is to offset the risk of loaning the money (which doesn't even exist, as you've already pointed out) AND that interest is compensation on money that "could have been earned" using it had they not lent it out. However, it is ALSO "taken for granted" than money _loses_ value over time due to inflation, and thus that you have to hedge it to offset inflation (this is how hedge funds came into being). But hilariously, when money is invested with a hedge fund, it isn't a loan (even though loans are supposed to _be investment_ from the creditor's perspective, hence one interpretation of interest), and the investor (whether a bank or not) has to acknowledge that risk exists and they might lose money. But when it comes to a "loan" (physically, the same concept) the moral terms are completely reversed.

Money is interpreted to magically lose and accumulate value according to whatever is beneficial for the bank in a given situation.

In other words, loans, risk, etc. are magically rearranged to be your problem when it's in the bank's favor, and not your problem when it's in the bank's favor. There is no consistency whatsoever; "conventional" economic knowledge and thinking about debt is a complete sham.

>>513547866
Yes they do, starting with the Fed. They literally choose the rate arbitrarily.

>>513532643
>How the Japanese bank secretly planned
You mean American banks secretly planned. Japan's economy post WW2 was created, dictated and guided by American financiers as part of the peace treaty. Japanese people were literally banned from being able to participate in their own economy as anything other than consumers and tax payers.

Probably the worst thing about permainflation is that it destroys confidence in the economy. If the dollar will constantly dwindle in value, then what is the point of chasing it? Everyone who has some significant amount of wealth in the economy will try to get their wealth out of the economy to a more stable one. For example, why would someone try to carve out a sector of the economy, as measured in how much cash they earn in profit from it, when that cash will be constantly dwindling in value? All sane men look at a permainflationary economy as somewhere to run away from; no one sees it as a stable long term prospect.

>>513548338
You will learn that the Fed doesn't control jack shit, and in fact governments can, and have always, went bankrupt.

>>513547645
But the implication is true.

There is absolutely no theoretical limit on money. Money is not a real resource -- it is a State tool for directing real resources.

The limiting factor is real resources that exist and can be produced (timber, grain, oil, machines and machines that make other machines, etc). Obviously the higher up the technology ladder you go, the more restricted or scarce something might be.

>>513548339
The postwar Japanese economy under American occupation was stumbling and failing until the Americans very quietly started putting Japanese fascists and national socialists back into administrative positions. They essentially re-installed the previous system, but set it towards the consumer market rather than a war machine.

>>513548653
>world's dumbest nigger award.jpg

>>513548338
Correct. The central bank is a monopoly -- it can set the interest rate wherever it wants, regardless of what it tells you or whatever token market mechanisms it undertakes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pex89N9Oqog

>>513548754
Yeah, but even that couldn't undo the damage of having a currency issued by a private bank rather than the government. Those men were able to keep it afloat, but that's all. It was still a system of slavery and control, because that's all a central banking scheme can ever be.

>>513546294
Well the "real money" has to be something the party that the bank is transacting to is willing to accept.
With the normie it will likely be cash, with the other banks, it will probably be central bank currency.
If it runs out of any of those it will be in a pickle.
In the case of central bank currency, which is the only case which seems realistic these days
it will usually take a loan from another bank, or the central bank will buy some bonds from the bank with the central bank currency.
As you can imagine, if there are no more bonds to exchange for central bank currency, there will be no more.(Unless of course the central bank has some kind of change of heart)
So in >>513545293 Bank B has an issue at the very least.

But in case of a bank run, this will likely happen with cash.
So if in >>513544880 A, B, C and D all withdraw their money, the bank would have to give them 8300.
But it only has 8000 reserves, so it can't pay it all.
The example was a pretty simplified though, so don't take it at face value ^^.

If we take the central bank into the game here, yes, there won't be much issue, the central bank will likely buy the loans and give the bank the necessary cash.
(Unless it wants to let the bank die that is).

>>513548867
You are suggesting, there are no markets? That Powell and company woke up this morning and set the 30 yr US treasury bond at 4.891%?

>>513548659
Money is not a state tool for directing real resources, it is a community tool for directing real resources. All participants in the economy use money, including other states. Having unreliable money results in loss of trust from other participants, meaning from your citizens and from other states. This means you have all the money in the world for the state to produce timber, but citizens will not take any action to produce timber, because they do not trust the money enough to save up to buy timber capital. And the same applies to other states. The result is a stagnation of the economy, citizens fleeing to other more stable economies, and other economies outcompeting. That is what happens in hyperinflation, like Zimbabwe or Weimar. As the consumer finds it impossible to save money due to money's constantly dwindling values, he is forced to spend it, on things other than what he would like. The entire reward system of capitalism is basically if you work hard you earn enough money to buy what you want. Permainflation destroys that, even if actors don't understand it, they become demoralized and stop trying to save up, stop holding rainy day funds, stop making big investments, etc. Right now if you go to a place like /biz/ American financial wisdom is basically like a game of musical chairs where you are trying to swap around what you hold your wealth in. None of this is conducive to a sound or industrial economy.

>>513549201
this >>513548867 is the MMT shill, beware

>>513549303
>Money is not a state tool for directing real resources, it is a community tool for directing real resources.
The problem you have here is that there is scant archeological evidence to support your argument. Whether you like it or not, the Chartalists have the evidence on their side. Money is a creature of the State.

>>513549201
Well technically he could, he just has to buy the bills.
The government will want to issue at the lowest interest possible.
If Powell woke up and said, I'm going to buy those for you at 2%
by printing the money, yeah he could.

>>513549201
Monopolies are market makers. This is Econ 101. Stop overthinking this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je-1eTl6J0g

>>513549426
>MMT brainlet shillbot
Money is created by central banks, monetary policy is the (central banks' primary job of setting interest rates, and) tandem operation of central bank+sovereign treasury issuing debt note fiat currency aka money as debt.

>>513549498
Correct. The Federal Reserve Act prohibits the central bank from purchasing bonds on the primary market. But that is a self-imposed legal restraint -- literally no different than deciding if weed is legal or illegal. It's something that is decided.

There is no natural or accounting law that requires paying interest on bonds or selling bonds at all.

>>513549426
In the economy that you want to produce timber, you can have the state produce timber, you can have the citizens produce timber, or you can have other states produce timber. All of these require a use of money to buy the timber land. In the permainflationary economy, the state produces as much money as it needs, so it is always able to buy timber land. However, citizens and foreigners do not have the ability to produce money, so they are in a race between their own ability to save up for the timber land purchase, and the constantly dwindling value of money. This results in their becoming demoralized, the more so the faster the rate of inflation is; such as Weimar, where money dwindled in value by 1000% per day. No one would try to save up money to make a big investment in timber land in that case. Instead, the familiar solutions to hyperinflation occur; crime, corruption, flight, and resignation.

>>513549602
Of course money is debt -- the logic of double entry book keeping is ironclad. Every asset is also a liability. So if the government creates $1T and spends it into the economy, whether they sold a bond for it or not, bare minimum there is now $1T liability mirrored in those assets dispersed to the population. But so what?

>>513549602
>Money is created by central banks
No. Any bank can create money. Where did paper money come from before central banks existed?

>>513544860
>Why not skip the whole interest step then or have it very very low at like 0.1%?
Because enough people could borrow some small sum and buy up all the physical silver out there (which is only a small quantity) and cause significant destabilizations to the whole system which leads to hyperinflation very quickly.
They started raising the interest rate right after SETF threads gained popularity, to put a stop to it.
People out there are still stacking it, they cannot lower them at all, they have to crash the whole economy until people stop acquiring it.

>>513549783
>Every asset is also a liability.
Assets are literally the opposite of liabilities. You really are a shill.

>>513548041
We already are in a weimar hyperinflation, but the timelines are 5x longer.
Everything that happened then is going to happen again, but at a 5x slower pace.
It's slow enough to eventually affect everyone's whole life, in the worst case it's going to eventually lead to everyone's death with no children.

>>513549627

>>513549744
No, citizens and foreigners cannot produce money. Why would you want them to? Also, Weimar is not a good example for a lot of reasons. They had a total collapse in productive output and they had war reparations that were priced in gold-convertible currencies so they were creating lots of currency in order to purchase the currency they needed in foreign markets, while simultaneously having surplus production literally escorted out of their country by foreign occupation troops.

Conservatives don't understand why that is a fundamentally bad comparison. What are US debts denominated in? Think long and hard.

>>513549842
>Assets are literally the opposite of liabilities.
Are you listening to yourself? Of course they are opposites. They are mirror opposites. lmao.

Think for two seconds. If I loan you $100, that loan is my asset and your liability. They are exactly mirrored (any interest not withstanding). It's the same $100.

>>513532643
There's no such thing as a free market. It's all an illusion so that Jews hold collective power and you don't.

>>513548041
>>513550019
It's exactly 5x because the gold price evolution happening right now matches exactly the gold price evolution from that time, but the graph is exactly 5x shorter on the time scale at that time compared to what happened now.
We're in the phase where it takes 3 more years of weimar hyperinflation, which translates to 15 more years of hyperinflation in our present times.
We're going to have continuous high inflation for 15 years from this point.
Screencap this post and you'll see it's going to happen exactly that way.

>>513541202
You are an obnoxious faggot.

>>513531865 (OP)
He's a retard. His solution for saving Japan's economics was more government intervention. Of course /pol/ and other theocratic retarded boomers believe in him.

>>513550315
Except that you're trying to use this mirror definition to ignore the reality of credit creation. If I have a bar of gold that I own, that's an asset. It's nobody's liability. When a bank issues a loan, while it may be *represented* as both an asset and liability in their books, this is part of the scam. It's just an asset, because they haven't lost anything. They can start with zero dollars and loan (create) a million. As the borrower repays, they get interest. This is an asset. It's pure gain. But say the borrower defaults. They lose nothing!

Think of a mortgage. You borrow $250k to buy a house. The bank creates 250k out of nothing and gives it to you. Over time, you have to repay that plus interest, but may default. Heads, the bank pockets the interest, in exchange for having done nothing. Tails, the banks gets your house (plus any interest already paid) in exchange for nothing.

>>513550093
In an ideal economy, no one produces money at all. There is some preset finite amount. There are 100 dollars in the economy, and 2 goods; each good is worth 50 dollars. Then someone adds another good; each good is worth 33.3 dollars. What money production does is try to inhibit that change by adding another 50 dollars to the economy so that each good is still worth 50 dollars. What this does is punish literally everyone in the economy who does not have the ability of money creation.

>>513547645
werner talks about his meeting with greenspan in his tucker interview
it's interesting to say the least
a debt jubilee would be most welcome, but as you say, that would be the end of their little game

>>513548659
>The limiting factor is real resources that exist and can be produced (timber, grain, oil, [...])
this is the one thing werner never talks about
money IS a claim on resources
no resources, no money, it's pretty simple
central and commercial banks only create money bearing debt which means money must always grow to be able to cover the interest, backed up by the premise that there will be continuing access to the raw resources necessary to keep the system going, thus keep the economy 'growing'

>>513550756
Yes, I understand the bank creates money out of nothing. This isn't an argument for gold as money or whatever you think you're arguing. Rest assured, banks have more gold than you. And your wares and labor are more time sensitive than their gold.

The real conclusions to reach are what is actually an appropriate level of interest? Should interest exist at all? What should this credit be directed towards? And these are the kinds of questions that Richard Werner and the MMT people (like Kelton and Mosler and Wray) have been attempting to answer for a long time now even if there are variations in their approaches or ideological alignments.

>>513550019
>>513550447
I am sure that there is a difference between hyperinflation and slow permanent inflation. What the result is, I'm not sure. What I believe is that the money managers saw this as a way to secure control of the economy, and believed that if they did it slowly enough, the machine wouldn't crash. The historic justification for fiat currency was usually times of war. It seems logical that the Western government has been in a permanent crisis since the 1800s, due to the constantly improving military technology, things like ICBMs, making permanent state control a necessity to defend against other states. But what I don't think they understand is the way that permainflation and deindustrialization are linked. Permainflation causes the complete loss of confidence in the economy, which results in deindustrialization. Industry is obviously important, so I think that this was a major long term error on their part.

>>513551082
Ding ding ding there it is. MMT shill.

>>513551082
We're using physical silver instead, which is the perfect money.

>>513550819
Well, I wouldn't say that Werner never talks about it. Maybe he's not very specific on it, but he does often mention new technologies that can improve production efficiencies. I guess a classic example would be the synthetic rubbers and fuels the Germans developed during WW2. Electric cars that don't use oil (but they do consume other resources) or more fuel efficient cars that use less fuel to travel the same distances. Petrochemical fertilizers, or permaculture, etc. Maybe building techniques like precast concrete or mass timber, etc. Stuff like this that could reduce material or labor input for similar or close enough results.

>>513532131
post mega.nz link

I have come up with a better term than permainflation or slow permanent inflation, which is perpetual inflation

>>513531865 (OP)
just watch the documentary

>>513551082
>Should interest exist at all?
No. Money only functions correctly if it represents labor. Interest, loans, stock investments, gambling and insurance all represent the acquisition of money without labor. All of them should be highly illegal, because they fundamentally destroy the basis of currency, and currency is the basis of a functional country. Trying to make money by playing games with money ought to be considered the moral equivalent of robbery, because that's what it is. It can't be done without stealing from your neighbors.

>>513551364
Goldbugs didn't agree with you back in the late 1800s when they yanked silver out of the mix because a bunch of upstart poors started hitting the jackpot out in Nevada.

>>513551488
Loans will never go away. There will always be situations where I am out of firewood, so I go to my friend and he loans me money to buy firewood.

>>513551596
This is a great point, which is that precious metals have exploded in quantity over the past century of advanced mining. Not even close to how much dollars have exploded in quantity though. There would have to be some sort of mechanism in place or else mining corporations would be able to destroy markets. Which brings up another great benefit of fiat currency; with a stable currency, like silver, a hostile power could flood your economy with silver to cause disruption. I think what Werner was trying to say was that the recession cycles are caused deliberately by central banks flooding economies with dollars to induce inflation, such as by causing the skyrocketing of real estate prices.

>>513551488
And what happens when machines are doing a large portion of the labor?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAAV9JxdjF0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL2KoMNzGTo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu3jgy2-tL8

>>513551471
It's excellent, and for beginners + experts watch Richard Werner's 7/28/2025 interview with Tucker
a must see
linked upthread ^^^^

>>513551899
>There will always be situations where I am out of firewood, so I go to my friend and he loans me money to buy firewood
As long as he isn't charging you interest, that's fine. Because nobody is making money from nothing in that case, he's merely letting you use his money temporarily. Loans with the expectation of a return greater than what was lent are the problem, which isn't something that would happen between friends or family. As long as interest is illegal, no corporation or bank would have any incentive to loan, which is as it ought to be. Loans should be entirely private or entirely governmental, in the cases where the state decides it wants to foster public good by investing in some needed service.

>>513531865 (OP)
I have been steeping in libertarian anti central bank propaganda for so long that seeing the documentary 10 years
ago was not mind blowing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Ac7ap_MAY

this was the first more extensive contact about the history but even prior I was aware of fractional reserve banking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ6hg1oNeGE

Ron Paul won

>>513551899
Nobody can flood the market with physical silver, the best thing they can achieve is losing that silver.
Inflation in paper currency has always been WAY WAY higher than inflation in silver.
It would be great if we had the same inflation as silver, but we don't, it's way higher.

>>513552023
That's even more reason why debt can't be allowed to exist, because how can you expect people to pay off their debts when there isn't enough to go around? There's no conflict here, because if there's no need for labor then it's trivially easy to provide every citizen with an allowance for food and shelter. And if that's not feasible, then clearly we still need labor. There will never be a situation where these two come into conflict, provided that there's no debt and no usury ruining the relationship between labor and currency, because labor and money will be in tandem. Less need for labor inherently means less need for money.

>>513549791
>13 pbtid MMT shill fistbumping the other MMT shill
Sovereign currency is created by central banks+treasury, that is money
Loan money is created by national banks (9:1) that is also money
Watch the Richard Werner interview 7/28/2025

>>513552490
But is it true that there isn't enough to go around? I am talking about production.

>>513552358
silver is easy to game, its not a free market however and even the fictional gold market is being suppressed by making storing and owning gold as arduous and risky as possible

>>513552577
Explain what makes it risky.

>>513552254
That's wrong. If I need firewood and you loan me 5$ with an interest of 1$ to buy more firewood, then I just pay you back 6$ when I have the money. What that results in is the same exact economic situation as before, except you have one dollar more and I have one dollar less. The money from nothing comes from other financial tricks to do with bills of exchange. Such as if you have 5 dollars in gold, I ask for 5 dollars, you give me a loan of 5 dollars plus 1 dollar interest, and you do this by giving me a 5 dollar bill that says you owe me 5 dollars. At that point I am in the economy with a 5 dollar bill, and you are in the economy with 5 gold dollars, and so 5 dollars has become 10 dollars.

>>513552561
Currently, no. There's plenty of need for labor. Especially if we were to stop importing cheap labor from other countries. But even in an imaginary scenario where ALL labor is taken care of by robots, the principles I'm talking about hold true. When your monetary policy is labor = currency, you'll never run into conflict because if you do find yourself in a scenario where labor is no longer needed then you also necessarily find yourself in a situation where currency is no longer needed.

>>513552254
That's wrong. If I need firewood and you loan me 5$ with an interest of 1$ to buy more firewood, then I just pay you back 6$ when I have the money. What that results in is the same exact economic situation as before, except you have one dollar more and I have one dollar less. The money from nothing comes from other financial tricks to do with bills of exchange. Such as if you have 5 dollars in gold, I ask for 5 dollars, you give me a loan of 5 dollars plus 1 dollar interest, and you do this by giving me a 5 dollar bill that says you owe me 5 dollars. At that point I am in the economy with a 5 dollar bill, and you are in the economy with 5 gold dollars, and so 5 dollars has become 10 dollars.

>>513552358
I do not know much about it, but one of the problems I always read about in the history of specie currencies was the flooding this way and that of specie. If you have an economy with a stable currency, such as silver, and I am outside the economy (like a foreign country that doesn't interact with your economy), I might be able to flood your economy with my silver, causing a massive increase in the quantity of money in your economy. One of the big deals of the fiat system is that each country has a unique and easily identifiable means of exchange.

>>513552658
the US government set the precedent of seizing all gold from all citizens so for the type
of crisis you need it you can expect legal complications

friction in transport and purchase exists, they too game the paper market to simulate
a gold quantity that does not exist in reality while government force stops savy investors from ever putting it to the test

>>513552668
>What that results in is the same exact economic situation as before, except you have one dollar more and I have one dollar less
Yes, and what happens when this becomes common practice? Now all wood everywhere costs 1 dollar more, because the markets will adjust themselves around such a change. That's why the fields where loans are common, such as education, automotive and healthcare, are all obscenely expensive. They don't actually cost more than they used to, it's just that loans have become more normalized. Which essentially is the same as stealing from you and me.

>>513547660
>written like a high school research project

>>513547660
Also masonic hand sign by Gaddafi

>>513532984
In japan's case they literally had to kneel to any shit america wanted thanks Mc"AIEEE I CANNOT DO JACK SHIT ABOUT WAVE TACTICS"Acvckurth

>>513547660
>>513553117
Napoleon's hand in the jacket is a masonic sign too. Was he supposed to be a rebel?

>>513552952
I don't see why me spending your five dollars instead of you spending it will cause all wood everywhere to cost six dollars. It results in me being a dollar poorer on my next paycheck.

I think the reason why so many Americans are taking loans instead of saving up to buy a car is because a lot of Americans have very little money on hand. And I think the reason for that is the inflation in prices outstripping the inflation in wages. And the reason for that is the money supply doubling every 10 years or so since 1930.

>>513552668
>>513552490
You’re both wrong in different ways.

It is not good for the stability of a financial system to be issueing loans for non-productive purposes (ie for firewood). Unless that firewood is used as fuel in a business of creating something of real value, then the transformation of labor energy into resources means there actually is an increase in monetary value to pay interest on any loan.
Credit is the oldest form of monetary medium, it predates everything, gold, silver, fucking seas shells. Before any of that there were still humans making agreements to do something now for something in exchange later. The key is that these credit issuances are for productive purposes. If you build a society that issues credit so everyone can go buy booze and get drunk and do nothing, or buy real estate and do nothing, that is credit for non-productive purposes and it is highly inflationary, as in the debasement of the purchasing power of that credit.
Humans will never escape credit systems, it’s intrinsic to how we interact with each other, we need to figure out a way to tether that credit to real wealth (commodity money) and engrain an appreciation for violence into of cultures to keep human greed at bay.
We need to bake regular debt jubilees back into our socioeconomic systems and build public execution stations in the centre of every financial district on the planet. Maybe every bank should have a guillotine at its entrance, people need to be reminded that management of a monetary system is paramount to human prosperity and civilizations stability.

>>513553377
Because if it's common practice, wood sellers will realize that they can raise their price and still turn a profit. The question that they ask themselves when setting prices is no longer "can my customers afford it at this price?", but instead becomes "will my customer be able to get a large enough loan for this price?". They're no longer basing prices off of what people can afford, but what people can borrow. This isn't theoretical, it's proven fact. Just look at how much cars, houses and education costs. The materials don't cost more than they used to, so why would the cost of these things go up over 10000%? It's because the price setters know that the banks are the ones paying, not the private citizen, so their prices raise to meet the wallets of the buyer.

>>513552875
> I might be able to flood your economy with my silver, causing a massive increase in the quantity of money in your economy.
Too say this in theory but the only example of things like this happening are with paper money, such as what the English did with the French Assignat. Silver is specie, it requires real human energy to extract and refine and mint, the idea of flooding an economy with real money to try and destabilize it is asinine and completely refuted by history.
What you’d do instead is infiltrate the nations institutions, and start lowering the purity of the silver money. Thats how you destabilize a specie monetary system.

>>513553430
That is what Werner had to say and he still wanted there to be the creation of credit, he just wanted it to be done for productive purposes and by a host of many small banks. And that is what I outlined above when I said, "I want firewood. You have 5$ in gold. You give me a certificate saying you owe me 5$ in gold. We now go out in the economy each having 5$ and therefore having created 5$ from nothing." That is the problem with the loan system. In an accurate, honest, trustworthy, ACOUNTABLE system, if he loans me 5$, he subtracts 5$ from his balance and adds it to mine. Then, it doesn't matter what I decide to spend it on, whether that be firewood or if I throw it into the sea. It is up to him to make good decisions about who to trust his money with. Modern banks, since they are just creating money, are driving up prices by inflating the amount of money in the economy and also playing favorites by controlling who has access to the new money. Even if that fake money is spent on production, it still results in price increases due to the increase in money supply making money a less scarce good.

>>513553731
If the amount of money was 17 trillion in 2020, 8.5 trillion in 2010, and 4.8 trillion in 2000, then that means that prices should be approximately doubling every decade if the amount of goods stays the same. This is what caused hyperinflation in Germany, Venezuela, and Zimbabwe, when the government flooded the economy with new money, thereby making money become much less valuable.

>>513554156
Exactly, the two go hand in hand. Money is printed for the sake of keeping up with interest, which causes inflation. The obvious solution is to simply make interest illegal. The parasites will screech and cry and insist that their role is essential, but the reality is that they're not needed. They're just bloodsuckers. Nobody has a right to make money by loaning money, nor does that serve any function in a healthy society. Simply outlaw it and everything will begin fixing itself. The idea that we somehow need loans, interest and usury in order to survive is laughable.

>>513554156
>This is what caused hyperinflation in Germany, Venezuela, and Zimbabwe, when the government flooded the economy with new money, thereby making money become much less valuable.
The primary trigger was the collapse in production.

>>513551392
>he does often mention new technologies that can improve production efficiencies
i've only ever heard him mention this sort of thing as an example to show how productive lending to small business can help with GDP, such as where they need to update their machining to use the latest processes, etc.
it always makes me think of the captain in dad's army, whose day job was being the local bank manager. he would spend all day meeting local business men and deciding on their loan applications, and was able to do so by being embedded in the local community, thus personally familiar with most if not all of the bank's clients (sorry if you dont know dad's army, it's a classic british sitcom from the 60s)
to my mind this is the kind of banking he is advocating, and i'm all for it

hilariously that pic i found is from this article where one of the cunts responsible for wrecking my country is advocating small, local banks:
>Bring back Dad's Army banks, says George Osborne
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26783709

>>513554552
>the industry produces 50% less?
>QUICK PRINT GORILLIONS!!!

>>513554592
interest on interest causes hyperinflation

>>513554385
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLM4OQXk1RIm1FiwwTWOtIM8kutJWF-EhX&si=tKCF9_Idv-Pq2gju

Watch this. The main reason states create money is to buy things they can't afford, usually guns and stuff like that during a national emergency.

>>513554702
I believe their motivation is the same as the modern Western Banker, which is that they see the people as easily duped and that if they just inject a bunch of money into the economy, it will spur productivity before people can realize that their money is becoming worthless. But the problem is all of the loss of confidence in the currency which we saw in Weimar. Germany is happening here today. People do not have faith in the US dollar and they are desperate to store all of their wealth in anything other than the US dollar which in essence means people are trying to take everything they have out of the dollar economy and don't want to put anything in to the dollar economy

>>513531865 (OP)
Honestly one of the greatest works of both history and economics written in the last 130 years. Thank fuck he's actually a proper empiricist and was able to develop experimental tests of his theory and back them up with primary sources. I don't think the book could even be written based on how so much data is now digitally held. He simply wouldn't have been able to obtain access. Of course it was actively suppressed by the CIA, the US Department of State, the Federal Reserve, and all the other state organs connected thereto.
>>513533663
His interview is great.

>>513553886
> Modern banks, since they are just creating money, are driving up prices by inflating the amount of money in the economy and also playing favorites by controlling who has access to the new money. Even if that fake money is spent on production, it still results in price increases due to the increase in money supply making money a less scarce good.
This is true, as described by the cantillion effect. But you’re describing here the purely supply-demand equation of money and real goods. That is import but not the primary driver of debasement of purchasing power in a credit system; you must consider liquidity theory. What is the quality of the collateral backing the credit?
The idea of more money chasing more dollars causes prices to go up is only true along the narrow lines of the cantillion effect (prices rise asymmetrically, only in some regions of the economy and not others). General credit debasement is driven by the liquidity that backs that credit.
ONLY when you reach the inflection point, a point where the liquidity of the credit has been destroyed, where the collateral behind the credit is deemed by some mechanism worthless, then does quantity theory of money completely take over and dominate. This stage of a credit system is hyperinflation.

>>513554975
>Watch this. The main reason states create money is to buy things they can't afford, usually guns and stuff like that during a national emergency.
But a State that creates its own money can by definition always afford anything priced for sale in its own currency.

>>513555479
its a regressive invisible tax in the way the money is issued top down centralized

>>513554385
> Money is printed for the sake of keeping up with interest, which causes inflation. The obvious solution is to simply make interest illegal
This is a very narrow understanding of credit and interest. Human time preference and opportunity cost is innate, you can’t disregard it as unnatural.
If I accumulate a great deal of savings in say gold, and I have no earthly wants that demand my use of this money in the foreseeable future, then I may entertain an entrepreneur who has an idea for a business venture, who would like to use my gold to pursue did business. He tells me he will need 5 years to pay back my initial investment, which I agree to as I have no need for this money for at least the next 10 (time preference), and in exchange for my non-zero risk in this transaction, we agree that he will pay me an interest for my theoretical lost opportunities while that money is outside my possession (opportunity cost).

>>513531865 (OP)
not a patch on this timeless children's classic

>>513555479
Not necessarily. The state has to be judicious in its money creation. If the state simply produced a quadrillion dollars tomorrow and bought every single thing in the economy, it would cause a mass panic and flight of capital refusal of sale due to everyone's perception that all of their belongings had suddenly become worthless. Instead The government tries to do this at a slow enough rate that it doesn't set off alarm, bells or else under the disguise of a crisis such as a war. This can be seen as a counterfeiter entering a small economy. At first, the impact of his presence may not be perceived, but gradually people become more and more aware of the worthlessness of their assets as he buys more and more of them up. This results in them refusing to sell or switching to a different currency. If they are legally compelled to accept his counterfeit for some reason, then the only option left for them is to leave the economy. In a hyperinflationary economy like Weimar Zimbabwe, there may be price controls and you may be legally obliged to sell your goods to the government or someone else. Even for a currency which you know is worthless. This causes Capital flight because capitalists don't want to be compelled to. I believe this is a big part of why America is deindustrializing since no one wants to participate in an economy where the currency is perpetually losing value

>>513532984
They were able to pull this shit off even back then. Even to this day, they hoard gold as their fail safe option. They know fiat always goes bust and if their new crypto shit doesn't work that is what all the gold is for.

>>513534252
They did the same thing to Korea particularly their socialogical experiments.