Why do the working classes vote against their own interests?

How does the brown tide help the working class?

its total cuck behavior, they dont care about living an easier life as long as more mexicans get deported

>>81705640 (OP)
because it btfos the heckin' brown people!

>>81705640 (OP)
Its so sad lefties dont have multibillion dollar corps and entire media outlets backing them, right? right?

>>81705640 (OP)
how does supporting faggots, blacks and women advance my own interests???

>>81705685
Why do you believe mass deportations are happening? Not even /pol/ believes in that nonsense.

>>81705640 (OP)
>conservative politics
Its wild that dems pretend they have any semblence of anything other than vindictive spite and vitriol for white working class americans

>>81706177
The board with all the elgin and israeli shills?
Noooooo say it isn't so.

>implying it's not the same on the other side as well

>>81705640 (OP)
being a cuck is american culture now
it's always either kowtowing to israel or kowtowing to russia

>>81706217
fetal alcohol syndrome artist posted, opinion discarded

You mean
>Politics explained
>Both parties getting in bed with corpos and billionaires while the central bank controls the nation

>>81705640 (OP)
>millions of streetshitters being imported in droves
>neets get services taken away from them to bank more money for israel
>politicians who've never worked a day in their lives are laughing at the retards who voted for them
>big booty latinas are being deported
But yeah, Trump is still better than Kamala, right?

>>81705640 (OP)
Don't the leftists want millions upon millions of competing workers to come here, driving wages into the dirt?

>>81706252
sounds based. total goycuck enslavement

>>81705640 (OP)
Same old: the powerful use the tool of religion to divide the population and distract them with useless infighting

>>81706217
It's literally not as bad on the other side

>>81705640 (OP)
The MAGA type American's politics literally goes no deeper than do the opposite of anything the leftists (anyone slightly different from them in any way) are doing. If someone put up a PSA with a Trans person saying not to eat cat shit, these retards would be comparing the nutritional value of litter and smugly talking about how the libtards are seething and eating cat shit is White. I guaran-fucking-tee you'd have some of them doing it. They are THAT stupid.

>>81706217
>>81706279
>my side literally raping underage slaves in dungeons and metaphorically grinding plebs into meat paste is better than your side literally raping underage slaves in dungeons and metaphorically grinding plebs into meat paste
Americuckolds, everyone

>>81705640 (OP)
voting is how the elites know you are complacent. voting for either party is against your interests
>>81706129
Obama and Biden didn't make life easier and neither would Kamala

>>81705685
trumps on track to deport less than 1mil over the course of his 4 years lmao

>>81705640 (OP)
>multiple red scares
>foreign espionage to destroy any potential worker's state and stop it being seen as viable
>sex-based, race-based, nationality-based, religion-based, and gender-based bigotries obfuscating common class interests and dividing the workers
>massive apparatus in both the state and media to funnel energy into fascist avenues
see this video on fascism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=darxphvk058
See also Chapter 1 of Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds: https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds/page/1/mode/2up
See also also Rajani Palme Dutt's fantastic book, Fascism and Social Revolution, the most comprehensive breakdown of this phenomenon you will find :https://archive.org/details/dli.ernet.237105/page/n3/mode/2up

>>81705685
Liberals can't answer this. Other than mention food.

>>81706257
No, that's what liberals want.
We leftists want to destroy the system of neoimperialism which forces people to come to the first world in the first place, facing bigotry and state violence just to get subsistence pay
When it comes to the people who have already travelled to the first world, the wage depression is caused not by those exploited masses, but those who exploit them. Get immigrant workers to join unions, and your bosses won't be able to pay you less.

>>81706146
Democrats, yeah, fuck those guys. Lefties like AOC and Bernie don't really, though. Despite the media trying to find hypocrisy every little thing. Their policies far out weight Bernie's two houses (Which are both modest) or his "corporate" sponsors which are very modest individual sums.
https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/bernie-sanders/summary?cid=N00000528

Democrats suck, and at least Trump is messaging around fighting for the working class, even if he absolutely is not in most instances.

>>81706141
Whites will literally shoot their own balls off so minorities won't get the sweat dripping from them. It is insane how cucked we are.

>>81705685
fp;bp

"Hurr durr, the working class votes against their own interests!" is literally an NPC phrase that lefties parrot without giving it a second of cognitive thought. It's obvious to anyone capable of a child's level of comprehension that bringing in millions of third world immigrants is terribly harmful to the working class. It lowers wages, increases unemployment and simultaneously causes a sharp spike in housing costs.

Lefties can't allow themselves to understand this basic reality, their self image depends on it. They imagine that they're champions of the poor and downtrodden, but any opposition to immigration would be "racist" so when confronted with facts their brains literally shut down.

>>81706417
Ironically, if racists were smart, they would support it. Millions of brown people being exploited for incredibly low wages.

>>81706561
problem is you have to see them and interact with them. if they did all the work then went underground to go hang out with all the other nons while white people chilled maybe

>>81706457
yep and they're the first ones to throw their own people under the bus. if your white and poor, these people see you as no better than a nigger

>>81706440
https://www.cato.org/blog/immigrants-reduce-unionization-united-states

>>81705685
republicans don't care stopping the brown horde either
>but muh ICE deportations
wow! we reduced the number of browns in the country by 1%!

>>81706577
Let me ask you something stormfag. If you are so great why are you here?

>>81706577
Whites still aren't breeding and the percentage of browns being deported is like 1% at most

Trump supporters are legit fucking stupid. At least the average liberal tranny has finished high school and most of them seem to pursue higher education, the average Trump supporter never leaves their small hometown in bumfuck nowhere and drive around a 30 year old pickup truck because they live paycheck to paycheck. If you've ever traveled outside the country, seeing a Trump supporter is like seeing an American born third worlder, they're legit stupid, no education, and just braindead. I spent a few months in Peru during a mountaineering trip, I remember interacting with the locals, they were kind but you could tell they had little knowledge about a lot of stuff, yet they were kind, talking to Trump supporters feels exactly the same, it feels like talking to a person with no education or world experience, except they actually think they're smart and better than you just because they were born in the US.

>>81705640 (OP)
Because the conservative controlled media told them that owning the libs was more important than a job, owning a house, having rights, privacy or free speech.

Remember not to criticize Israel or Palantir will flag you and ICE will have you denaturalized and deported without charges or a trial.

>>81706577
With legal immigration, non-whites birthing, minus the deaths/deportations, we're looking at ~5 million more non-whites by 2029. Conservatives are basically letting in the boogeyman but slightly slower.

The sad part is, they believe sacrificing their humanity will bring them and their nation wealth.

Less hands mean the economy is weaker. People need to work jobs to live, generally. If you go look up the amounts given for SNAP, medicaid, or child tax credits, it is nowhere near enough to live off.
Illegal immigrants don't even have a means to claim these benefits, since they don't have a social security number.

>>81705685
How indeed, especially when Republicans have voted to make abortions even harder to get. That will only lead to more browns and niggers, the very people they pretend to despise.

>>81706596
yeah, this is literally what I'm talking about
from Wikipedia:
>The Cato Institute is an American libertarian think tank headquartered in Washington, D.C. It was founded in 1977 by Ed Crane, Murray Rothbard, and Charles Koch,[5] chairman of the board and chief executive officer of Koch Industries
>Koch, Inc. is an American multinational conglomerate corporation based in Wichita, Kansas, and is the second-largest privately held company in the United States, after Cargill.[6]
so take their conclusions with a grain of salt.
their argument is that immigration reduces labour unionisation, therefore immigration is a good thing (cause le free market)
I would add a different conclusion from what they said about why immigration and unionisation show an inverse relationship.
The first part of the graph with high immigration and low unionisation is up to the 1930s, when the great depression lead to the introduction of the New Deal, with greater worker protections and generally greater share of workers in the national wealth. production for profit was curtailed somewhat, so there was less demand for more workers via immigration
this pattern re-emerges in the 80s with the rise of neoliberalism and economic deregulation
but yeah, main point is that you have to bring immigrant workers into the unions so your boss doesn't fire you and pay them half as much for the same work

>>81706641
poor education is by design, as you can probably guess. it's a bad idea for the government to have a country full of educated people who actually understand how things could be made better

>>81706631
Real answer is because I hate the state of society and want to rant about it sometimes. I'm guessing you aren't going to accept that though

>>81706770
>but yeah, main point is that you have to bring immigrant workers into the unions so your boss doesn't fire you and pay them half as much for the same work
And they prefer to just scab. Which makes sense because that's why they were brought in.

Second of all WHY DO WE HAVE TO BRING IMMIGRANT WORKERS INTO THE COUNTRY IN THE FIRST PLACE WHY ARE YOU SO FUCKING OBSESSED WITH BRINGING NONWHITES INTO WHITE COUNTRIES????????

Socialism is retarded and marxism is also retarded
Liberals should be purged

>>81705640 (OP)
because most have spent their entire lives with a neoliberal boot in their mouth, sucking down the most insidious and anti-intellectual propaganda this side of north korea. add that to failing education systems and you get parties going the maga route. most western countries are so far gone that they see parties like democrats as not just leftists, but radical leftists, thats how much the average westerner hates thinking

>>81706146
i mean look at this dipshit, theyre seriously implying that there are major media outlets pushing leftist political positions. theyre actually convinced that the democrats are anything buy typical neoliberal scum

its just that much easier to trick people than it is to convince them theyve been tricked, especially when the ego of people like americans are involved. its a sunken cost for both their sides right now, its destroying them, and its fucking glorious

please, america, please please keep it up

>>81706546
bringing in millions of third world immigrants is terribly harmful to the working class
>It lowers wages
immigrants don't lower wages, bosses lower wages
it is true that if a more vulnerable person is available to exploit, your boss will fire you and pay them a fraction of what you cost. but the answer to that isn't to block immigration (economic interests will prevent this even if they denounce immigration in words), the answer is to unionise with immigrant workers so they can't be exploited
>increases unemployment
this is an inescapable part of capitalism.
capitalist production implies individual ownership of industry, therefore competition, therefore unplanned production, therefore overproduction
in these boom and bust cycles, the bourgeoisie need a surplus population to absorb when industry is running at high speed, and to eject when the crash comes
capitalism necessitates a permanent minimum level of unemployed persons, the so-called reserve army of labour
everyone working increases productivity and superabundance, thereby eliminating profit
this isn't a problem in a planned system where the work is evenly distributed
>and simultaneously causes a sharp spike in housing costs.
fairly similar situation to above, houses are only made if there's a profit to be made - enough houses for everyone means next to no-one buying houses

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ppiohVRZ0s&list=RD3ppiohVRZ0s&start_radio=1&pp=ygUNcXVlZXIgZ2FyYmFnZaAHAQ%3D%3D

>>81706860
>immigrants don't lower wages, bosses lower wages
Supply and demand pushes down wages. If Ranjesh, Suraj, and Patel are willing to work for half pay, then guess what, they're going to get hired for half pay and you can either accept that too or not get hired.

>>81705685
>libtards cant even argue against this, they just have to say that Trump isnt doing enough to stop it, as if their people wouldn't make it 100x worse
you're going to have to choose between class interests and third worldism

>>81706177
I don't believe they're happening. I believe Democrats ran on unlimited illegal immigration and abortion which is why only 18-30 year old whores and Jewish liberals were motivated to vote for them.

>>81706822
>they prefer to just scab. Which makes sense because that's why they were brought in
didn't say it's easy, just that it has to be done
>WHY DO WE HAVE TO BRING IMMIGRANT WORKERS INTO THE COUNTRY IN THE FIRST PLACE
>WHY ARE YOU SO FUCKING OBSESSED WITH BRINGING NONWHITES INTO WHITE COUNTRIES
it's not about their ethnicity, I'm in the UK and we've opened immigration to Poles and Romanians. And Japan, a non-white country, will likely have to increase immigration soon
but to answer your question, it's to do with how advanced capitalist countries work. To maintain profit levels which are constantly being lowered by rising productivity and technological innovation, the capitalists have to increase the working day and lower wages.
This gets to a point where native-born workers can't afford to have kids (this is the most commonly given reason by young people), so the working population has to be maintained through immigration
>>81706853
socialism and Marxism are the truth, that's why capitalist governments have organised red scares, military coups, and espionage, and it's also why they don't want you to think about it

>>81706880
I can only say it in so many different ways.
if you unionise, you can force your boss to pay you more.
supply and demand works both ways. you are selling your labour to your boss - they can decide to dock your pay, you can decide to strike and force them not to
whether you think that's feasible, or realistic, or possible right now or not makes no difference. regardless, it's what has to be done if people want to keep their pay

>>81706912
>but to answer your question, it's to do with how advanced capitalist countries work. To maintain profit levels which are constantly being lowered by rising productivity and technological innovation, the capitalists have to increase the working day and lower wages.
AND THEY LOWER WAGES BY BOOSTING THE SUPPLY OF LABOUR. Without the supply of labour going up THEY HAVE TO RAISE WAGES TO GET WORKERS. To push wages down they need MORE LABOUR AVAILABLE which is why they demand UNLIMITED BROWN PEOPLE. If they DON'T have that labour available and just declare lower wages THEY'LL LOSE WORKERS because there isn't enough supply.

This is very simple shit, dude. Canada post covid: retail workers realized their value, started demanding higher wages or they wouldn't accept employment. Capitalist elite went to the Liberal/NDP alliance, demanded cheap scabs from India -> the liberal/leftist government promptly brought in five million pajeets -> retail wages were thus suppressed.

Why are you fucking retards unable to comprehend supply & demand?

>>81706932
Indians are the final form of shabbos goyim. They will take your job for half your pay and be twice as happy.

>>81706932
>if you unionise, you can force your boss to pay you more.
What happens when Ranjesh, Suraj, and Patel don't unionize and just work without a union so your boss just closes down the location your union's in and opens up a new one staffed by non-unionized jeets?

Why let Ranjesh, Suraj, and Patel into the country in the first place? They don't benefit White society in any way.

>>81706853
Socialism has never once been a thing in America

>>81706912
National Socialism is the truth. That's why Jews have spent 80 years programming goyim to believe Hitler was the bad guy.

The level of gymnastics leftists have to go through to try to come up with some way to have the brown tide not destroy the working class's quality of life is unreal. Like, why not just keep them out? Leftists are obsessed with bringing massive numbers of brown people into peaceful white countries and will jump through any number of hoops to justify it.

>>81706859
You liking or not, the actual left is the liberal left, your average Marx and Lenin worshipper drink starbucks while taking photos on their iphone, then watching gay amazon series about revolutionaries. Your old left is long dead and the new "left" is actually headed by corpos wanting to make people more controllable and obedient, you likely always side with them in "elections" and everything else despite saying they arent true left because they are the only and one left there is, in a pathetic attempt to escape any blame

>>81705685
What libs cannot ever answer. They rant and rave about republicans giving tax cuts to the rich, meanwhile dems want to give absurdly more money to browns. It's the same theft, it's just worse with dems. Republicans are just the lesser of two evils.

>>81705640 (OP)
>this image
>as if to say democrats aren't also doing this
Imagine knowing politics is corrupt AND STILL thinking your party isn't.

>>81706943
>If they DON'T have that labour available
I think this point is the main source of our disagreement
I understand your argument as follows
>increased immigration increases labour supply, and therefore lowers the price of workers' labour power
>my answer to this is to unionise immigrants so they don't have to accept lowered wages, whereas your answer is to block immigration so capitalists can't cheapen labour power
there are some problems this doesn't address, though.
capitalists can still reduce wages without there being immigrant workers to pay less, this is just a common method.
next is with this point:
>If they DON'T have that labour available and just declare lower wages THEY'LL LOSE WORKERS
this rests on the idea of competition characteristic of classical capitalism.
If two businesses work in the same industry, and one pays more, they'll steal workers from the other business
this still plays out to a small extent with smaller businesses, but most key industries are now monopolised. corporations don't need to worry about competitors offering higher wages, because all the corporations are in agreement in their desire to lower wages.
The idea that the workers can force the government to reduce immigration implies that the state is inherently democratic, and not in fact a class state of the bourgeoisie. If workers actually had enough power to make such a call, they could just overthrow the bourgeoisie and get rid of the problem altogether.
Thing with this is you can't have lasting socialism in one country. You can have modest success if you're a large country with lots of resources like the USSR, but you will inevitably feel the need for the resources you lack. Plus, capitalist governments will pressure you and hamstring your development until you fall back into capitalism, at which point they'll swoop in like vultures. Just look at Russia and Yugoslavia in the 90s.

>>81707013
sure, if you completely redefine words because youre too indoctrinated to regard them accurately then they do mean something else

great point, very american

>>81706972
The 'brown tide' takes all the shit low paying jobs. It's also convenient that Republicans never go after the people hiring them and thus incentivzing them to enter illegally.

Care to explain the reasoning behind Trump making exceptions for the illegals working on farms and in the hotels? Kinda curious about that.

But back to the point you arent supposed to want your own citizens to do those shit jobs. In theory you, the American citizen should be working the do nothing high paying gravy train jobs. Instead even your own right wing overlords are bringing Indians in to do those jobs or just scrapping them altogether with A.I.

More likely the conservative vision is to force the bulk of the white working class into those shit jobs the illegals will no longer be working and instead of rasing the wages tk make it attractive they are just going to straight up cut so many social safety nets and benefits that YOU the American worker will become desperate enough to pick crops for $5 an hour.

>>81706947
>What happens when Ranjesh, Suraj, and Patel don't unionize and just work without a union
well then you failed at your job, I guess. I don't see why you think they wouldn't join, they also have an interest in higher wages. They're not taking the lower wages cause they're evil or stupid, they're just more desperate.
>>81706951
There was a pretty substantial socialist movement in the US in the early 1900s, but the first red scare and the rise of the USSR saw an end to that.
the main reason socialist thought didn't gain traction in the US for such a long while was westward expansion - capitalists in the east could get rid of the "surplus" population of unemployed by selling them land in the west (which wasn't theirs to give, but anyway) at bargain prices. by the end of the 19th century this expansion had reached its conclusion, and workers started to saturate the country. that's when you get socialism popping up
>>81706953
most of my views on fascism are reflected in the work Fascism and Social Revolution by Rajani Palme Dutt, so I'd read that for a marxist critique of National Socialism
>>81707013
>your average Marx and Lenin worshipper drink starbucks while taking photos on their iphone, then watching gay amazon series about revolutionaries
this is indeed a major problem we're trying to address, people need to get out and actually start doing shit. I mean, Marx himself said this:
>"The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; the point, however, is to change it"
>you likely always side with them in "elections" and everything else despite saying they arent true left because they are the only and one left there is
No.
This is another major problem, opportunism (class-collaboration). the proper left position is to gtfo of the Dems, and start a new party that excludes the bourgeoisie. of course, we aren't trying to win in bourgeois elections, this is just a way to get our messages out there and teach people to look outside this system

>>81706641
>I remember interacting with the locals, they were kind but you could tell they had little knowledge about a lot of stuff, yet they were kind
You can either be malicious, or you can be an idiot, but you cannot be both

>>81706798
like how reagan's administration fought against free higher education because they were quite literally afraid of an "educated proletariat"

>>81706561
Yeah I sure love having to live near semi-savages with affirmative action systems in place too. This totally benefits me. Retard.

>>81706932
You have no bargaining power to unionize with when there's infinite foreign scabs. For fucks sake it's so clear you're some silver spoon fuckwit with no real world experience.

>>81707263
semi-savages?

what does the average white american-born citizen have to do with this?

>>81707276
>looks at the most wanted list just about anywhere in the country
>it's all racial strangers
mfw

>>81707263
>semi-savages
probably not gonna stop you from being racist by replying to you in a 4chan thread, but I'll give it a shot
>affirmative action
this is a liberal attempt to improve the lives of oppressed groups without addressing the system that's oppressing them.
the leftist solution to this is to abolish the systems holding down minorities and vastly improve their living environments, access to education and healthcare, etc. then, equal outcome will follow because everyone will have had actual equal opportunity, which they don't under the current system

How will cuckservative evangelicals react when Jesus returns and sides with the Muslims?

>>81707274
>foreign scabs
you bring the scabs.
into the union.
then the bosses.
can't use them as scabs.
this obviously isn't a permanent solution to the problem, it's just an attempt at mitigating it. The unions won't permanently keep your wages secure, but they will train you to coordinate with your fellow workers and act as centres of education for what has to be done. Luxemburg's Reform or Revolution explains this point rather well.

>>81707296
fantastic point! now look at the american imperialism that has killed millions of people all over the globe, destabilised and overthrown promising and democratically elected socalist-leaning governments (even though they should fail without american help according to your propaganda), and which currently supports israels ongoing genocide of the palestinians

not white people who overwhelmingly traditionally and contemporarily support this, no sir!

you are civilised! you are pure! nothing savage about your mass murder and genocide!

>>81707350
alright guys I gtg to bed
gn zzzzzz

>>81705640 (OP)
>Why do the working classes vote against their own interests?
We have two options in every election.
Unless you can demonstrate that the Republicans are worse for the working class than the Democrats, voting in favor of them is not voting AGAINST working class interests.

>>81707111
>capitalists can still reduce wages without there being immigrant workers to pay less
They actually can't. There are only two ways to reduce labour's cost: increasing its supply, or lowering its demand. To lower its demand you'd need to be in a recession so we can move past that one; increasing its supply is done by either bringing the foreign labour here, or outsourcing production to where the foreign labour is (free trade); interestingly the left has been hissing mad at both the idea of not bringing the foreign labour here, AND at Trump's tariffs which make it harder to offshore to places with cheap labour.

>corporations don't need to worry about competitors offering higher wages, because all the corporations are in agreement in their desire to lower wages.
At which point workers just go to other areas. Unless you're trying to argue that every single business in every single sector of the economy are all colluding to keep wages down, which is obviously wrong and insane because different fields already pay varying different wages.

>>81706310
>>my side literally raping underage slaves in dungeons and metaphorically grinding plebs into meat paste is better than your side literally raping underage slaves in dungeons and metaphorically grinding plebs into meat paste
What you're leaving out is the actual differences between these groups, which do in fact exist.

>>81707184
>well then you failed at your job, I guess. I don't see why you think they wouldn't join, they also have an interest in higher wages. They're not taking the lower wages cause they're evil or stupid, they're just more desperate.
They'd rather have a job at shit wages than no job. So they'll undercut you. Why do you think they would join? Millions of them are scabbing in the west RIGHT NOW and they don't give a shit that they're destroying western quality of life. They are in fact evil and stupid and malicious, and so are you for supporting them.

>>81707350
>you bring the scabs.
>into the union.
What do you do when they refuse and instead just continue to undercut the union workers?

>The unions won't permanently keep your wages secure
Correct, what you actually need to do is to NOT JUICE THE SUPPLY OF LABOUR THROUGH INFINITE JEETS.

Also wasn't luxemburg one of those evil jews who tried to establish a communist dictatorship in Germany after WW1?

>>81707367
>y-you deserve it because jewish usurpers control the government and give the populace the current brainwash (including myself), but I will never acknowledge this

>>81707508
>Also wasn't luxemburg one of those evil jews who tried to establish a communist dictatorship in Germany after WW1?
Yes, they planned to do the same thing they were doing in Russia at the time do the Germans and everywhere else they could. The retard communist LARP rich kid you're responding to will of course claim this is le conspiracy theory.

>>81706891
Biden deported more people than trump. And obama was getting shit for kids and cages.

Like nigga??https://www.aclu.org/news/smart-justice/president-obama-wants-continue-imprisoning-immigrant-families

>>81707481
alright, last time replying cause I really do need to sleep
>There are only two ways to reduce labour's cost: increasing its supply, or lowering its demand
there is another way - lowering the cost of the necessaries of life. that way capitalists can pay you less to live, and more of the value produced by you goes to them
>the left
I assume here you mean the dems
the reason they don't support Trump's policies is because they moreso represent multinational capital, whilst the republicans represent domestic, national capital
national capital wants more of the market to itself - tariffs artificially restrict access to the market in favour of domestic companies. It will take a while for the production of these companies to raise up to the demand previously sated by foreign goods, so prices will increase during that time. Dems point to this as their reason for opposing the tariffs - for the benefit of the workers - but they really just want the ability to trade goods with other nations
I would check out Marx's speech on protectionism and free trade for the marxist position on this topic: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/01/09ft.htm#marx
also I believe Trump is taking this policy to intentionally curtail production as we're approaching another general market crash
>At which point workers just go to other areas
most people can't just move someplace else
>Unless you're trying to argue that every single business in every single sector of the economy are all colluding to keep wages down
of course not, but it is a general trend within each sector
just look at retail, computing, telecommunications, oil and gas, etc. The majority of the market share is owned by 3-5 companies, and I don't see it as far-fetched that they'd have reached agreements behind closed doors

>>81705685
If billionaires wanted a secure border you would have one. They love cheap labour then when they want to get heat off them they point to the immigrants they exploit. Chuds eat it up every time and billionaire gets his tax breaks.

>>81707671
The latest schizolib buzz is that they're dropping niggers and beaners out of airplanes into the ocean. I wish the orange man were half as cool as they try to make him seem rather than just a zionist nigger.

>>81707711
The Chuds actually point to both but you have to set up the false dilemma that you can only point your finger at one of them. Cope.

how printing money and making everything more expensive is in my interest? that's all Obama and Biden managed to do

>>81706912
>socialism and Marxism are the truth
that's why it worked so well in every country it was implemented comrade

>>81707508
>>81707508
>What do you do when they refuse
try explaining in a different way? I mean fuck, if they're that opposed to joining you can always try to pressure them, but that's not likely to give good results
>what you actually need to do is to NOT JUICE THE SUPPLY OF LABOUR
I already said in a previous reply that if you have enough power to force the capitalist government to do this, at that point you can just depose the capitalist government and get rid of the problem once and for all
>tried to establish a communist dictatorship in Germany after WW1?
She did try to establish a soviet republic as part of the Spartacists, yes, but then the backstabbing fuck Friedrich Eburt, the SPD leader, had her shot and her body dumped in a river
a soviet republic is not a dictatorship, in the sense of an autocratic government ruled by one person. in marxist literature you will find the term "dictatorship of the proletariat", which I personally think is a stupid fucking term, but it doesn't mean dictatorship.
What it refers to is the proletariat having political power over the bourgeoisie, denying them the ability to vote and be elected, and establishing laws enabling them to take industry out of the hands of the bourgeoisie. Marxists would say that today we also live under a dictatorship, the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, as regardless of the democratic window dressings most countries have, everyone knows banks and corporations call the real shots when it comes to policy.
The word soviet is just Russian for the word "council", and referred to the workers' councils set up immediately following WWI, in which only non-bourgeois could vote and be elected. All political posts were to be elected by direct, universal suffrage, and all officials were to be subject to recall at any time. The communists disliked bourgeois democracy not because they thought it was too democratic, but because it wasn't democratic *enough*.

>>81707677
>there is another way - lowering the cost of the necessaries of life
Price controls are the single fastest way to create a shortage. And for what? So that you can bring infinite smelly babbling pajeets here? Why not just

NOT

BRING

THE

JEETS

?

>the reason they don't support Trump's policies is because they moreso represent multinational capital, whilst the republicans represent domestic, national capital
Well yes, we know leftists represent capital through all their policies. That's why Jaghmeet Singh of the NDP and Justin Trudeau of the Liberals engaged in strikebreaking on behalf of CN and CPKC last time the conductors' union tried to strike.

>I would check out Marx's
No, I really don't care what your retarded economics-denying prophet thought.

>most people can't just move someplace else
By areas I mean other areas of the economy, not physically changing cities. Like, let's say somehow magically all the telecom companies decide to collude and push down the wages of telecom techs, so the telecom techs go and work as electricians instead. Then the telecom companies have NO WORKERS and collapse. That's why even our telecom cartels in Canada haven't been able to just go "lmao you all get min wage", and if they could train jeets to do the work for less they absolutely would, every sector where they've been able to train their 76 IQ scabs to replace Canadian workers, they have done so.

>>81706860
>immigrants don't lower wages, bosses lower wages
You're being deliberately disingenuous. It's a simple matter of supply and demand, and you can't be too stupid to see that so you're a liar. No amount of saying "Just form a union goyim, lol" is going to change the fact that when you have a virtually infinite number of foreign workers competing for a limited number of jobs that is going to push wages down.

The rest of your post is a bunch of bullshit explaining that if only we had Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism then the unemployment and rising housing costs caused by mass immigration wouldn't be an issue. But here's the thing, even if we DID live in your version of a perfect communist utopia, we STILL wouldn't need millions of immigrants coming in every year, and if we DID bring them in it would reduce the standard of living for the existing population of luxury space communists.

Ironically I agree with you that capitalism in it's current form is a bad thing. This is why I advocate for National Socialism. You may recall that the last time that was tried it proved to be incredibly successful at restoring a certain country in central Europe from a devastating depression to becoming an economic powerhouse. In fact it was so successful it took the combined efforts of the world of capitalism AND communism (in a rare show of solidarity) to bring it down, crush it, and demonize it for nearly a century.

>>81707759
>I already said in a previous reply that if you have enough power to force the capitalist government to do this, at that point you can just depose the capitalist government and get rid of the problem once and for all
But if you block immigration then you don't need to depose the "capitalist government" because capitalism with restricted supplies of labour & protectionist trade policies is a utopian condition. Which is why you leftists desire immigration so much: it keeps the workers poor, it keeps us oppressed, and thus you can try to sell your snake oil soviet bullshit to us. You don't want wealthy happy prosperous workers because wealthy happy prosperous workers don't need communism.

>>81707785
>you can't be too stupid to see that
Leftists are in fact that stupid. It's too much of a recurring theme that they simply don't understand supply and demand, or reject it.

>>81706129
>prison and suffering for browns
>bad jobs and low wages for whites
>end of the middle class
>end of generational wealth building
>corporations take everything

They will happily vote for this. Hell as long as you include the first one they'll vote to live in a muddy hole in the ground with no access to hospitals. Spite and hate are their prime motivators, they couldn't care less about themselves or the long term consequences of what's happening now.

>>81707835
But... if you send millions of browns back to Mexico, wages will rise due to a labour shortage. And that will rebuild the middle class which has been eroded by mass migration, it'll enable generational wealth building again.

>>81707759
people get the idea of soviet power being a dictatorship from the USSR, where multinational invasion within its first years of existence, then a civil war, then Nazi invasion, then the cold war, forced the Soviets to further and further centralise power, taking decisions out of the local soviet councils and placing them in larger regional councils. Stalin did a lot of bad shit, I could literally talk for hours about all the mistakes he made, but he didn't rule alone. There's a CIA document somewhere describing how the public idea of Stalin as an autocrat was exaggerated, and that there was always some form of collective decision making (the politburo, central committee, etc.)
Blackshirts and Reds discusses this a lot more - every socialist wants as complete a democracy as is feasible at a given time, including myself, but 1: the bourgeoisie prevents that and so must be dealt with, by force (not bodily harm) if necessary, and 2: you can't have broad democracy if you're at virtual war with the most powerful country in the world for 40 years.

>>81707753
they unironically did
living standards rose dramatically in russia, china, and cuba compared with pre-revolutionary levels
education and literacy both rose
I'm obviously not blind to the atrocities and famines that happened in both china and the ussr, but they are to be explained and learned from:
>2 of the USSR's famines were caused by WWI and WWII respectively
>the famine of the 1930s was caused by faulty agricultural practices and moving agricultural populations into industry far too quickly
China's famine was likewise caused by faulty agricultural technique, shifting agricultural workers into the industries, and the four pests campaign which caused the locust population to explode
most of these problems could have been solved if there were more voices in the discussion, but as previously stated, the situation of war and encirclement kind of made that impossible

>>81707865
>the bourgeoisie prevents that
Actually it's the managerial class (the communists) who prevent democracy because as soon as they get into a position of power as Party bureaucrats and don't have to work, they immediately decide they want to keep their power. The bourgeois simply leave the country so they aren't murdered (the petit-bourgeois on the other hand despite being workers get murdered because they don't have enough wealth to escape).

You dream of being a Party member who doesn't have to work too. That's why you want communism.

>>81707785
>a certain country in central Europe from a devastating depression to becoming an economic powerhouse
Deranged pro-Nazi delusions and lies. The German national socialists dismantled Germany's democracy, stole from their political enemies, and lowered wages to poverty levels. A big part of the ethnic cleansing was actually seizing Jewish property to make up for their horrible economic situation. What money they did make was put into the war machine to "take over the world". How'd that go again? Not so great, huh?

Want to fluff Germany's balls? Do it for current Germany. They have the third largest GDP in the world, the largest in Europe. They are ranked 3rd among nations for education and have some of the lowest unemployment in the world. Germany fucking sucked ass to live in during the 20th century, I don't care what /pol/ memes told you.

>>81707841
>if you send millions of browns back to Mexico
You don't just point at them and yell "leave", deporting millions of people forcefully is going to take a team of thousands working for years. It will probably cost something in the 10 to 11 figures range to actually do. And as we've already seen, most of the US (farming anyway) is 100% reliant on their cheap labor.

Are you going to pick strawberries for 50 cents per crate in the hot sun? We're reliant on their slave labor to make this country work. Or are you in favor of the living wage and FDR's ideals set forth in the New Deal (conservative kryptonite)?

>>81706190
>vindictive spite and vitriol
Only problem I got with y'all is you're literally dumber than a pile of rocks. Twitter libs are a different story but they seem only interested in moral posturing. Turning your entire politics ethos into being spiting the other side is completely gay and ends in self sabotage.
>>81707785
The problem with this supply and demand argument is that as long as worker accept what they're offered it doesn't matter. Unless you literally have too few people to fill all the jobs in the US people take what they get. So we have one side that wants to negotiate vs. everything will balance out, individualists who think corpos give a fuck abt them despite not knowing their name, and hard work is all it takes. You could remove all the immigrants in the country and they would still say "nah fuck you, your labor is worth what we say it is."

>>81706177
Yeah, this. I think they're going after a handful of controversial targets just to stir shit up and make it look like they're deporting more people than they are.

>>81707913
>was actually seizing Jewish property to make up for their horrible economic situation
lol, aren't you the guy who was arguing for communism on this thread? Or is stealing property only good when jews do it, and bad when anybody else does it to them?

In any case you're full of shit, Hitler didn't restore Germany's economy by "stealing from jews" (although that's a good idea who's time has come!) and if you're just going to spout the standard fairy tails about "Hitler was a very bad man who wanted to conquer the world" then you might as well save your breath, nobody is going to read that shit. By the way, is it true you guys literally shit your pants when someone says the holocaust didn't happen? Because seriously, it never happened.

>>81707951
Forgot to mention the classic "don't you think they deserve it" cuck

>>81705640 (OP)
>vote against your class interests
>vote against your class interests AND your racial interests
Damn, what a hard choice. I guess I should just vote for the people who have double contempt for me instead of the people who just have contempt for me...

>>81705640 (OP)
why do libshits vote for genocide in Palestine?

>>81707951
>supply and demand isn't a thing because reasons
Is that what you guys call chutzpah?

>>81707989
>my nonsense is great
>your facts are shit

Not really anything left to say. Enjoy living a meme life with the deluded. I hope you get to live your dream of recreating a failed state from the 1940s whose leader had to kill himself because he fucked up so hard.

>what if we raised the national debt by a bajillion dollars while also cutting services for the average citizen
Americans are an enigma

>>81707753
indeed, an example of this is China

>>81708053
>took highschool econ and thinks he knows supply and demand
>doesn't understand reasons just labels them other
brain small moment
Markets have more factors going into them than just supply and demand. However what I said works within supply and demand ironically. Which is that as long as you have more people than jobs, people will be competing for jobs. Not the other way around. Additionally people need to eat and the rich can afford not to fill spots. So rich people have the upper hand at the negotiating table. Especially when the supply of workforce isn't collaborating in anyway. Plus in all this, isn't it the right that say paying people more will result in having to eat the bugs. So paying much more for American labor will surely result in bug eating and owning nothing. It's better to occupy the superior jobs and negotiate collectively than to demand nigger jobs for the whites.

>>81708076
>Not really anything left to say.
You had nothing to say to begin with, now fuck off and take your NPC talking points back to rebbit.

>>81708053
Additional follow up since I used too many words thus your slow reply. YOU'RE ADVOCATING FOR A LABOR SHORTAGE AS IT'S THE ONLY WAY SUPPLY AND DEMAND WOULD KICK IN.

>>81708144
>blah blah blah look at my impressive wall of text. See how I have proven that two plus two equals five. Don't forget to updoot my post
Look stupid, nothing in any of the shit you've typed in any of your posts has refuted my point; When you bring in millions of third world immigrants you increase unemployment, reduce wages, and increase housing costs. These are basic, undeniable truths. Saying "just form a union lol" is a ruse. You know (and the people bringing in the immigrants know) that workers are LESS able to organize if the workforce is made up of a bunch of different cultures and ethnicities. You simply handwave at the problems of unemployment and housing costs and say "but if we had communism" that wouldn't be a problem.

Now your argument seems to be "But as long as ONE other person is competing for a job then it makes no difference if MILLIONS of people are competing for the same job, so we might as well bring in immigrants because something something look at me virtue signal." That's so stupid it doesn't even deserve a response.

>>81708208
Then you're advocating for massive unemployment? So I guess the working classes WEREN'T voting against their own interests when you guys were defeated in the last election. Well I'm glad that argument is settled, I guess this thread is done now.

>>81708270
>But as long as ONE other person is competing for a job then it makes no difference if MILLIONS of people are competing for the same job
I didn't say any of that shit though lmao. You also didn't address the rising prices for having to pay for American labor. I just saying if the labor doesn't require talent unless there is a labor shortage it will always be lowpay unless negotiations occur (which right opposes like nothing else). Sorry immigrants lowered your pay by like 20 cents I guess. Why should I have to pay for your lack of talent, laziness, and highschool level education having ass?

>>81708270
sorry I didn't realize working class meant you were a literal field worker

>>81708301
I am advocating for everyone having a job lol

>>81707486
>how dare you deny the pros and cons difference between eating shit VS eating vomit
Ameribro.....

>>81708053
Where's your chutzpah, I don't see your reply back yet bud

>>81707935
>you can't get rid of cheap scabs because... YOU JUST CAN'T WE NEED THEIR SLAVE LABOUR
You leftists are evil.

>>81708208
Labour shortages mean wage increases you fucking RETARD. When there's a labour shortage you have to pay more to get workers because the employers are competing over a smaller pool of labour forcing them to bid up offered wages.

>>81708503
>Labour shortages mean wage increases
yes I literally said that, you don't have to quote me bro. No reading comprehension? Labor shortages are also not a good thing economically.

>>81708503
Honestly bro, I think this politics stuff is too hard for you. Just don't worry about it and you'll probably be happier as well. You won't have to bother with difficult things like understanding and reading.

>>81705685
You don't understand, we NEED a foreign slave underclass. Undermining your workers is a GOOD thing because then the plantation owners don't have to pay a living wage. blah blah blah muh class struggle and shi I'm just going to ignore the fact that corporations promote diversity to undermine worker unity because I'm a braindead moron who doesn't actually support workers.
>inb4 but the OTHER SIDE (can only think in binaries)

>>81707640
look at how fucked this person is, look at them and tell me americans deserve to be treated with respect

>>81707367
Many Americans disagreed with American intervention ever since WW2. Importing a bajillon niggers wasn't a commoner concern, it was a landowner's concern.
It does make sense that the colonial empire is facing mass migration of migrants from countries with animosity towards them, though. In some sort of cosmic justice kind of way.

>>81705640 (OP)
Democrats have failed them time and time again, that's why.

>>81708503
>Labor shortage means wage increases
This is a pernicious half-truth. Wages are only loosely tied to availability. In truth, the owning class decides what wages are. The owning class often uses labor availability to determine wages, but you are woefully misinformed if you think that decreasing the supply of labor will always increase wages. In the end, the only surefire way to increase wages is to pressure the owning class to do so. If that means decreasing the supply of labor, then you are right. Yet, you shouldn't forget the reason -- fear of losing profits. That can be achieved with other means, and sometimes it cannot be achieved by decreasing the supply of labor.

>>81709554
So tariffs and reducing the amount of labour? Sounds like something Trump is doing.

>>81706217
>>81706310
>>81708420
Ameri-lards base their entire identity around picking a side in this imaginary fight while the only thing that ever changes is which side is crying about how bad things are.

>>81706230
>kowtowing to Israel or kowtowing to Israel with a few more steps
fixed it

>>81705640 (OP)
>Why do the working classes vote against their own interests?
Because both sides are globalist vermin who want to swamp the West with browns, give all the jobs away to the CCP's slave state and STILL expect Westerners to march into wage-slavery, even though there's nothing left to do. We fucking need a UBI and Keynes' 15 hour work week already. Fuck this shit.
Ironic that it's the supposed party of the working class who also want all these scab workers to dispossess their own and shit up the West.
Meanwhile the conservatives, who'd rather close the borders, also have a party who want cheap slaves to keep entering so the fucking line goes up.

>>81709812
Both parties are accelerationist? Brilliant, a civil uprising is on the way.

>>81706255
He is now seethe, tranny.

>>81706255
I support the 4th thing being done, racemixing is bad

>>81705640 (OP)
the working class in america is brown the natives dont do shit its a insult to call them the working class

>>81709962
They're foreigners and a net drain, cope

>>81709985
every mutt is a net drain unproductive consumer when we look at the global economy to imply that you are better then the slaves you import is the real cope.

Thankfully with the dollars collapse you will soon learn what working is.

>>81709837
In the sense that both parties put the interests of the rich before anything else. Even the democrats dislike the socialist elements in their party and work against them. It's why they would rather run someone like Hillary and lose than risk someone like Bernie getting in and upsetting the status quo. And of course Republicans are just straight up the party of richfags so they dont even put on any pretenses of caring about the non rich other than using social issues as a smoke screen.

Trickle down economics is still the go to strategy for both parties. The democrats to their credit try to throw the plebs a bone occasionally but since most white resent the idea of brown people getting those same gibs they spitefully vote for no one (except corporations lol) to get gibs.

>>81710001
>dollar collapse
The dollar is doing phenomenal ever since trump took office. The rest of the world is just jealous at how great we are making america again

>>81710053
its not even this term its his corona print spree that sealed it.
In 08 you had europe share a big part of the burden of the crash next one you are taking all on your own.

>>81705685
Quicker service at McDonald's and walmert

>>81706641
The biggest redpill is America despite the image it wants to present with the biggest and brightest cities has a ton of areas that are genuinely third world tier. Not having so much as basic plumbing was a regular thing in parts of the country even 40 years ago. Add in the hyper individuality and entire industries dedicated to making you a fatass slob addicted to bullshit and relying on drugs from said bullshit and it should be no wonder the type of person you described was so common. America still has all the same rot it did back during the gilded age, it was just able to push it back for a time between the roaring 20s and being the only major industrial power post WW2 that did not get bombed to shit or have tens of millions of people killed. The ones that hold all the power and wealth dont feel like maintaining the illusion of meritocracy anymore and are looking to gobble up everything they can just like was done back in the late 1800s. And I personally see very little of it changing until it gets to a point where comfort levels plummet and consooming tiktok slop is not enough anymore. Luigi killed the CEO guy because his back was completely fucked up from a surgery he had, to where his life would basically be chronic pain until he dies. Thats the kind of shit that would need to happen to actually get peoples heads out of their asses. But considering that even in East Palestine literally nobody decided enough was enough and went to fuck up the train tracks or hunt down any of the Norfolk Southern people for chem bombing the entire town, even that might not be enough.
>point is collectively we as a society just genuinely do not care beyond stuffing our faces and being entertained to death

>>81705640 (OP)
>this is a strictly conservative problem
Reminder to the dumb open borders leftoids
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0&t=22s

Arguing with communists is like arguing with retarded children, they live in their fantasy world.
From what I'm reading they are just being pedantic and their goal isn't assessing reality, but their goal is reaffirming their ideology.

There's no need to argue, their mind is already made, and won't change as it's not based on logic and reality.
Just read the retarded refutation of supply and demand of workers itt.
Cut it out, call them out for being retarded and end it there.

>>81708503
I know some of you guys are sheltered but you do know that it is not ONLY illegal immigrants doing fark work, right? There are citizens who already work for pennies right next to illegal immigrants and as one of them, they will not increase the wages. They do not care about you at all. They need to be forced by the government to follow worker safety regulations. They will never pay you enough to want to do backbreaking labor in the sun for 8-12 hours a day.

>>81710954
Not him but
>>81708503
>Labour shortages mean wage increases

The less people willing to work as slaves, the more willing to increase the pay employers are, the higher the wages.

The more desperate people looking for any employment, the less the wages.
Importing the third world you destroy the working class of your country, making it accept third world conditions.

>>81710990
Yes I understand how you think it work out because that is the logical response but companies do not operate off of logic, they operate off of maximizing profit. If they were logical they wouldn't need to be forced to follow safety regulations. They would follow and enforce them because losing an experienced worker is a large problem and the logical solution is to make sure they were working in a safe manner. Instead they rather pay fines, court fees, lawyers, and lobby to get rid of safety regulations.

>>81705685
Mexicans pick food on farms for $6/hr and keep shit cheap.
Nobody born and raised in this country is going to do hard labor for less than $25/hr

>>81705640 (OP)
>Why do the working classes vote against their own interests?
Because they're poor and uneducated. They lack the ability to understand how policy will affect them. They vote based on vibes. The common man has never been responsible enough to rule himself. That's why non-authoritarian governments are still a very new idea compared to the thousands of years we spent under various versions of kings.

>>81708321
>Ha ha goyim, you should have gotten a job at your uncle Shlomo's investment bank like I did!
And then one day, for no reason at all...

>>81707111
Why don't you come to Canada and unionise all the immigrants? I can show you around Brampton

>>81707711
How can you say billionaires have the power and not government after we saw years of government lockdowns where government told business to jump and they repeatedly asked how high
https://youtu.be/olrO0RDu8SY?

>>81705640 (OP)
>>81705685
Why can't we just have a political party that is willing to occasionally defy free market dogma in order to aid the working class while also opposing mass immigration? I don't see why the choices need to be restricted to pro-immigration liberalism or laissez-faire conservatism.

>>81711992
You have that party. Democrats routinely spend on ICE, they just don't do the gay LARP version. More people get deported under blue administrations routinely.

>>81711992
Because chud... conservatives cause immigraion.

>>81712085
>conservatives cause immigraion.
Then why don't liberals run on a platform of stopping immigration and deporting illegals?

>>81708321
>Why should I have to pay for your lack of talent, laziness, and highschool level education having ass?
Now that's rich. The title of this thread is "Why do the working classes vote against their own interests?" Leftists imagine themselves as these champions of the poor, but when you argue with them they quickly reveal that they absolutely DESPISE the working class! They literally don't care about mass immigration raising unemployment because they think the people it affects are losers. Hillary's comment about "deplorables" wasn't a gaffe, it's how they all think. They constantly portray anyone who didn't vote Democrat as some lazy fat redneck klansman from one of the flyover states, then wonder to themselves "Why don't these disgusting stupid hillbillies vote for us? Don't these uneducated hicks know they're voting against their own interests?" Meanwhile they constantly demonstrate that the actual interests of the working class mean nothing to them.

It's really astonishing to see how detached from reality these people are.

>>81705640 (OP)
Conservatives made alliances with the elite. This plan has been around for atleast 5 years.

And what alternative did you give them?
An LGBTQ nigger brownoid foid who will castrate their children?

Nice.

>>81712010
>more people flood in under dems
>more people get kicked out
okay
I prefer they don't even try come over here in the first place, like we're seeing now

>>81711199
>They vote based on vibes.
"It's her turn"
"It's time for a black woman in the white house"
yeah okay shut up