a gay friend of mine with feelings for me asked me out recently and it hurt my soul to turn him down.

I trust him, he trusts me, we're very close and know a lot about each other. I trust he'd never try to hurt me, and when he does, he'll apologize and try not to do it again. he's a good soul.

honestly, he'd be the perfect partner. we align on a lot, but have enough differences to be distinct. his intentions are pure, he's capable of compromise, and cares deeply about my well-being. on some level, i think it's fair to say i already love him.

but, he's a man.
he can't have kids
he can't raise children like a mother could
our relationship would be an abomination to the public
and we would be betraying ideals we both deeply believe in by engaging in this

so i turned him down, but it felt so empty doing so, like I had just killed something beautiful.

in my mind i know I did what I had to do, it was necessary to be consistent, to do the thing I know is important to me and right.

but my heart cries out in pure agony and what I did feels incomplete and wrong, like there was some other option that would have led to something better.

i just need to know if i did the right thing or not

>>81709033 (OP)
The way you talk about it, it sounds like you turned him down not because you are straight but because you are worried about what other people would think, which seems somewhat contemptible to me (I hope you don't mind me saying that). If you are neurotic about that just remember that homosexual relationships have been accorded a high status in certain very respectable cultures and can instantiate virtue..

>>81709033 (OP)
You did anon, if you're not gay you're just not gay, you can't force yourself to be attracted to something you're not and he couldn't force himself to not have feelings for you, it might get weird but i hope you guys remain good friends. Just be sure you're rejecting him out of your actual feelings and sexual orientation and not because of what others would think because others will not give a shit as much as you think, irl i mean

>>81709033 (OP)
>but, he's a man.
ok
>he can't have kids
adoption
>he can't raise children like a mother could
i dont think this is really worth debating
>our relationship would be an abomination to the public
who cares, its 2025 not even conservatives are allowed to say this in public and liberals fully support you in the western world
>and we would be betraying ideals we both deeply believe in by engaging in this
like what

>>81709033 (OP)
A woman could never love you as good as a man anon (male) faggot relationships are the most pure thing on earth, hallelujah

>>81709033 (OP)
>our relationship would be an abomination to the public
bruh, what? nobody gives a fuck.
ok, i think the next time you two talk, you should basically just tell him the 2nd and 3rd sentences of your post, and say that this is new territory for you, you're really nervous but you're willing to give it a chance. tell him that since you're uncertain, that no matter what happens you value your closeness and friendship and want that to stay regardless. if he understands your apprehension, he'll probably be okay with keeping it on the d/l at least initially, just to test the waters. also, keep in mind he's probably as nervous as you are about the prospect, and that's okay every relationship is uncertain at first.

>>81709050
>if you're not gay you're just not gay
anon take a look at the picture OP attached
do you really think he's straight

>>81709043
Don't lie to the boy. Faggots are treated horribly everywhere, everywhen.

>>81709043
>because you are straight
im not, i was groomed by a pedophile into it and its just lasted through my life. I hate the identity entirely since it was forced onto me, even if there's nothing that can be done about it at this point.

>because you are worried about what other people would think
on some level I am, but the issues I raise are there too. I am genuinely concerned about those as well.

>homosexual relationships have been accorded a high status in certain very respectable cultures and can instantiate virtue
but i cant have kids, he and I want kids.

>>81709043
>you can't force yourself to be attracted to something you're not
the shitty thing is, and i should have made it more obvious, but i do care and reciprocate the feelings to some extent. he's flirted before, i've liked the attention, I liked the feeling of being wanted and cared for, and i trust him to actually provide that.

this isn't an issue out of a lack of desire, but the crushing hopelessness of reality that such a relationship is inferior and wont get me what I want.

>rejecting him out of your actual feelings and sexual orientation and not because of what others would think because others will not give a shit as much as you think, irl i mean
even disregarding what other people think, I still have a conflict in me about how it'll align with the direction of my life. I think I want biological kids.

>i hope you guys remain good friends
i want to as well. I've tried my best to help him and console him with his feelings. I really don't want to hurt him and seeing him in pain hurts me.

>>81709122
Look dude, if you fucking love the guy, you guys could hire a surrogate or something for bio kids, there are many ways around it, i don't really support gay relationships and all but i want another robot to be happy, sit down and talk to him about it

>>81709071
>adoption
If I have children, I want them to be biological so i can continue my bloodline. I think the day i get out of my other mental illnesses (because of course the faggot is mentally ill), I may feel like bringing someone into this world. I want to respect the pattern replicated in nature, it's very personally important to me.

>i dont think this is really worth debating
I believe there are significant sex differences between men and women that necessarily push them to certain roles more than not. Not that a man could never do a woman's job, but that it'd be harder.

I don't want to experiment and give a child anything less than the best for their raising, I could not stomach the thought of being an abuser myself.

also, men dont produce breastmilk, which is important for the development of a child.

>who cares, its 2025 not even conservatives are allowed to say this in public and liberals fully support you in the western world
I care significantly about the comfort of others and not being a thorn in the side of the public. Even if I was in a gay relationship, I would be as straight acting as I could be in public.

I do not want the support form liberal types, it's just shrieking tokenism and militantism that does nothing but make people despise gays.

as for conservatives, I will likely live rural, in their territory if im to be happy. I align a lot with social conservatives, especially on pro-natal family values, so i sympathize with their disapproval.

>like what
that anti-natal behavior like homosexuality is not cohesive or conductive to a good society and, in the most ideal world, everyone would be straight.

Yes it's hetero-normative, because that's what the species needs to be to fucking survive. I want more good people reproducing than shitty people so that the future can be more good.

What's painful is that knowing this doesn't take away the longing for male affection like he can provide.

>>81709151
> that anti-natal behavior like homosexuality is not cohesive or conductive to a good society and, in the most ideal world, everyone would be straight.
Start with the Greeks. Homosexuality is traditional and important for Western culture

>>81709151
Anon, first of all, fuck you,it's 6 am and i was going to fucking sleep after pulling a all nighter caring for my froglet but now i'm invested on this shit SO YOU'RE A THORN ON MY SIDE(on a good way). Dude you're a fucking blip on a ocean, your actions have little to no effect on the world, we are grains of sand in the beach, are you really willingly to sacrifice your and his possible happiness for a fucking species that could care less if you both died right now? you both can hire a fucking surrogate each if you guys work together and save up for bio kids and you can raise and nurture them with hetero normative views if you want, like man, fuck now i'm not gonna be able to sleep, do you want to add me in a fucking burner to talk about this?

>>81709151
dude you are waaay overthinking this. like, spiraling into negativity. for starters, for what it's worth i align "conservative" and i couldn't care less about gay people or gay couples. i'm friends with gay people and i have some in my family too. your good society ideal world thing is all in your head. in reality it's a mismash of conflicting ideals, cultures and ideas. you're a drop in the bucket. it doesn't matter. and for the biological bloodline stuff...look at all the wacky medical stuff that's come out in the past 15 years or so. i'm not gonna say don't worry about it, but i think there will be some options eventually. also, as you age and grow as a couple, you will both change, your ideals will shift. sometimes you've just got to jump on an opportunity, it's better to try and fail than to wonder what could have been for the rest of your fucking life (cliche i know, but true)

>>81709115
>but you're willing to give it a chance
I don't think i am willing to give it a chance unless my core concerns are settled, which I listed. We already did talk and I do value him, his trust, and him as a person.

I care a lot about him, and made it expressly clear that no amount of his feelings changes how I view him, because they don't, and I care for him all the same.

>>81709132
>you guys could hire a surrogate
i've thought of it as an option. It's the most aligning one, but still some aspect of it feels very wrong, knowing that a woman is mothering a child for months and building that bond, only for the child to be taken away and given to someone else. Some aspect of it feels like a cruelty, either to the child or the mother, and I can't exactly put my finger on it.

I also am skeptical to the "hiring" aspect of it, I do not want to exploit some poor woman who needs the money and is trading her body for that. It feels exploitative and objectifying to reduce someone to just their reproductive organs like that.

I'll have to think on it more and do more research, thank you for providing some level of actual answer.

>>81709194
Anon, you're a fucking romantic in 2025, odds are there will be no bond for the surrogate because surprise, it's her job and not her first rodeo, not every woman is a magical being born to be a mom, most of them are fucking mean and awful, i know this because i like women and want to marry one BUT IT'S NOT EASY. you won't be exploiting anyone, it will be a business agreement between two or three consenting adults so a baby or more can have a loving family, please do fucking update me because i'm now invested on this gay ass relationship, i wish you both the best, if you want a friend to talk about it the offer of adding me in a burner remains

>>81709172
>are you really willingly to sacrifice your and his possible happiness for a fucking species that could care less if you both died right now?
I dont like to view humanity in totality, since that's not true. The type of person I am will be replicated if I have children, and the type of person I am, for my flaws, is not cruel or awful, or at least I try not to be.

I want less cruel people in this world and more good people. The only way to get more good people in this world is to create them and raise them. the act of being a good parent is something that can do meaningful, personal good in itself. I think it's important to me as a goal.

being gay gets very in the way of that, I wish it didn't.

>i'm not gonna be able to sleep, do you want to add me in a fucking burner to talk about this?
drop your contact first and i'll talk to you

>it's better to try and fail than to wonder what could have been for the rest of your fucking life
If I knew that it was possible for this to be a forever thing, I would. It's like trying to get with a woman and she has a hard rule of "im not having kids", but you want them.

except here, you both wants kids, but can't. It's crueler than cruel.

>>81709210
>you're a fucking romantic in 2025
I prefer the term "bleeding heart", but I understand where you're coming from.

>there will be no bond for the surrogate because surprise, it's her job and not her first rodeo
honestly, somehow that disgusts me more. I'm not afraid of using necessary evils to get my way, but its something that I will have to weigh.

>>81709237
I'm both the anons, 4chanburner3101 is my burner discord

>>81709194
>>81709237
alright fair enough. but coming from someone who's probably twice your age and still thinks about missed opportunities from a long time ago...just sleep on this for a couple of days at least, think with heart and not mind. maybe bounce this thread off some other places that aren't 4chan. and if you still think "no" after that, don't make it a hard "no" to him.
>>81709237
>except here, you both wants kids, but can't. It's crueler than cruel.
i get it. but this is never a certainty anyway. not to dump too hard but it turns out my wife and i can't.

>>81709237
>>81709241
I might fucking fall asleep because it's 6 am and i haven't sleep in 36 hours but I WILL respond eventually if you add me

it is pretty cucked to sacrifice your happiness for some gay shit like having a family. but this life is long and family helps you out in the long run.

have pride op..

>>81709255
>just sleep on this for a couple of days at least
I want to talk about it some more, because even though i turned him down now, I did make it clear that there is some lingering doubt in it, that something im doing is just wrong. I don't want to play this his feelings, but im horribly confused and scared. I don't want to betray myself, but i dont want to be miserable.

>>81709310
best of luck, anon. i'll leave you with this: whatever you chose, "confused and scared" isn't going to go away, it's always right around the corner.

>>81709033 (OP)
falling in love with a boy was the best thing to happen to me, he's my best friend and my lover, it's literally perfect and you'd be an idiot to throw that away!

>>81709151
>sex differences
yes those are real but they are statements about the AVERAGES of the two groups
your friend is an empathetic gay bottom, he is clearly far from the male average and would likely be much more suited to "women's work" than the average male, probably within female ranges even
having data on averages is fine but don't let it blind you to INDIVIDUAL variation!

>give a child anything less than the best
if you were to be fully consistent than this, you'd have to get fairly rich, not joking
you won't be able to send your kid to a good school (even the suburb schools are pretty trashy now, you might even need to go private) if you don't have enough money

If you got more money, you'd get a ton of gold digger whores with huge breasts who lactate a ton, and who have attractiveness genes to pass down onto a kid. what more could a baby ask for than huge breasts and wealth?

> not being a thorn in the side of the public
sure, you're a reasonable person, you have other skills you will be focusing on so you won't be the type of empty shell of a person that makes being gay their whole identity. why are you even worrying about this?

>pro-natal family values
aren't values just things you impose via culture and habit? You should trust in yourself to be able to help your child develop strong virtues even if they're implemented non-traditionally.
by pro-natal conservative standards, surrogacy is a good thing because it allows for virtuous homosexual people to reproduce

also, just a side note, you're pretty gay and there's a non-zero chance your kid ends up gay. In that case he could either marry a woman he doesn't love to pump some kids out (probably will be pretty disatisfying for him, but good for the species), or he could get a husband and use a surrogate (more satisfaction for him and good for the species).

>>81709623
>you won't be able to send your kid to a good school (even the suburb schools are pretty trashy now, you might even need to go private) if you don't have enough money

I believe more in community and home-schooling than institutionalized schools, personally. I would want an active role in my child's educational development, which to me is much more valuable than throwing money at a problem.

>If you got more money, you'd get a ton of gold digger whores with huge breasts who lactate a ton, and who have attractiveness genes to pass down onto a kid. what more could a baby ask for than huge breasts and wealth?

im trying to pass on traits in spirit and intelligence, not vain ones. I want my children to grow up with good influences from good people and decent genetics.

>why are you even worrying about this?
because juggling the sides of being around people comfortable with it and not is very difficult. I hate the idea of living two lives.

>aren't values just things you impose via culture and habit
in this case, mine are rooted specifically against that and i believe them sincerely.

being anti-natalist in behavior or mentality, to me at least, is a total spit in the face to your own life, and the society which predicates itself on pro-natal value to survive. to act against it is, in effect, to act against the very things that keep you alive. I try my best to be a consistent person, so I want to continue the pro-life and pro-natal values that have given me life and made life easier to live (by giving me other people, including the prospective boyfriend in question)

[1/?]

i would give him a handjob if he is cute

>>81709623

>You should trust in yourself to be able to help your child develop strong virtues even if they're implemented non-traditionally.

I hope so, but I do not want my child to think being gay is in any way "okay" or "normal", it's as gimped as any other disability, and the fact that surrogacy offers a solution at all is a testament to humanity's technical ability, although much of the technology behind it is flawed and fragile (many embryos are aborted in the process, which upsets me greatly).


>by pro-natal conservative standards, surrogacy is a good thing because it allows for virtuous homosexual people to reproduce

some part of me is allured by this line of thinking.


>you're pretty gay and there's a non-zero chance your kid ends up gay
I understand that, but I want to do what I can to prevent that as much as possible. If nature just cucked him into having strange feelings, that's not something I had any control over.

>he could get a husband and use a surrogate
its an option, but far from any kind of ideal one. I can't give any strong opinion on this yet since i am still undecided on my opinion on it.

[2/2]

>>81709033 (OP)
stop being a faggot
>>81709043
kill yourself discord troon

fuck off my board retards

I sometimes forget this board is faggot central

>>81709864
>I do not want my child to think being gay is in any way "okay" or "normal"
Why not? You realise these "conservative" prohibitions on homosexuality are not traditional in any long-term sense. They are just a recent degeneration. The most trad societies all approved of love between males.

>>81709879
don't worry i won't rape you

>>81709033 (OP)
You should use him for blowjobs until you find a woman.

>>81709887
>Why not?
the behavior is generally expressed in a way that's destructive to people due to the culture around it being for promiscuous behavior and anti-natalism.

>You realise these "conservative" prohibitions on homosexuality are not traditional in any long-term sense
they're particularly Christian in origin, I'm aware. Christianity is newer than the rest of time, yes, but the practice of homo-skepticism and anti-homosexuality cultural norms are worldwide.

I am not against homosexuality in itself, I am however very against anti-natalism, which homosexuality necessarily is.

>The most trad societies all approved of love between males.
are there any instances of this being common among peasantry, or is it behavior just among the elite of a society (who through history are always degenerate and dont partake in common people's behaviors)

>>81709947
I don't want to just view people as sex objects to be used and discarded, that feels wrong and immoral.

>>81709958
Yes, it was common among the peasantry too in places like feudal Japan and China. And the "degenerate elites" idea seems like a rhetorical trick. It can hardly apply to, say, men like Epaminondas, Aristides, Lysander, Solon, Sophocles, Theognis, etc. - models of virtue throughout all of Western history. Conservatives seem capable of saying that the masses are degenerate, when a behaviour they dislike is popular, but then appeal to populism and say the elite are degenerate, when they want to argue that something the elite does is bad. Most of the men I listed were disciplined, religious, devout, warrior-like statesmen.

Is religious celibacy evil too? By your standards?

>>81709829
>trying to pass on traits in spirit and intelligence
you and your possible boyfriend seem like pretty honest understanding people. I would trust you guys to be able to raise and educate a kid well.


> juggling sides between who'd be comfortable with gayness + double lives
you can just mention passingly that you are gay if it happens to come up while still acting like a straight (normal) person, one single life. i don't see why this makes you live two lives, unless you want to be friends with many extremely anti-homosexual people who would reject even virtuous homosexuals. I mean, such people would not even really align with your sense of values to the fullest extent, they would rather have you marry a vain female gold digger than pursue surrogacy with an honest male.

>>81709864
> don't want kid to think being gay is "normal"
if you lost an eye, and you had a kid, your child could either be born with two eyes or with one eye. it wouldn't make sense to be fearful of having a kid as a disabled person with one eye because you think the kid might be born with two eyes and gouge one out thinking one-eyedness is "normal", or that the kid might be born with one eye and (god forbid) manage to lead a fulfilling life due to the aid of modern technology... it's the same type of fear that a kid's life will turn out bad that motivates anti-natalists

>>81709987
>it was common among the peasantry too in places like feudal Japan and China

just for purely academic reasons i kinda want a source on that. I would like to just be wrong and my behavior be normal, see how they live and got over it. it'd be comforting.


>Is religious celibacy evil too? By your standards?

yes, i actually detest religious celibacy as a betrayal of the family. It's a rather gross practice in my eyes and people are usually shocked when I say that.


>unless you want to be friends with many extremely anti-homosexual people who would reject even virtuous homosexuals
I tend to befriend these people, and outside of their dogmatism, they're great people. I understand where they're coming from where they fear normalization too. I just do not approve of their sincere bigotry and hatred.


>it's the same type of fear that a kid's life will turn out bad that motivates anti-natalists
i understand the comparison through the whole paragraph, I would just hope they don't have to rely on something fragile, technology-bound, and unnatural like most surrogacy methods are just to continue life.

It's a niche that's necessary in some cases, but i dont think it should be seen as normal or okay to rely on it. It's just a much more corrupt, complex, and comodified version of the womb nature already provides. The womb is the superior choice and I would not want my child to misunderstand that fact.

Even if technology can assist the whole behavior of homosexuality, it would necessarily tether child-rearing to that technology, technology that can be captured, controlled, and regulated by people who wish to do harm. I have a lot of personal problems with interfacing with, and by proxy, promoting and financially supporting something like surrogacy.

still, this is just "what ifs" on "what ifs", I think the real question for me personally is "can i be a parent at all", let along a gay or straight one. I dont even have an answer for that now, im too ill and confused.

OP is the most homo of flaming fruitcake faggots, i hope he finds the love of his life

you two better post pics of when you suck each others cocks here

why do gay 4chan racists always make the sweetest couples?