>no physiological alteration
>no morphologic alteration
>can't be detected in MRI, EEG, or any neurological exam
>diagnostic based on asking mom if the kid has the "symptoms" and a checklist
how is ADHD real?

I was diagnosed based on a long ass computer exam where I had to sit in a dark room and stare at a white square for a long ass time and if it changed in a specific way I had to click a button.

Also it can be detected with neurological exam.

Also also people with ADHD have a paradoxical reaction to certain stimulants. Or did you not notice the treatment for hyperactivity is literally fucking speed? Take that shit without ADHD and see if it calms your ass down.

>>16702768
>Also it can be detected with neurological exam.
which?

>>16702774
fMRI

>>16702762 (OP)

Bullshit metric. Seems to hit and miss on a blasted dopaminergic system. Rest is probably just average cases of idiocy (pretty common in the domesticated).

>>16702768

>paradoxical reaction

Normal reaction. In a different subspecies ofc who knows what that shit might cause!

>>16702783
>In a different subspecies
>>>/x/

>>16702781
it can't detect adhd by itself, it only detects patterns that are "associated to adhd", and it isn't even conclusive
I too can create a fake disorder and claim that some patterns are associated to it sometimes but sometimes you can't see them

>>16702785

They are for all practical purposes. Some branch with a questionable viability to say at least. Kin selection is a strictly scientific topic.

>>16702788
>it can't detect adhd by itself, it only detects patterns that are "associated to adhd"
Literally what the fuck would ADHD look like other than patterns associated with ADHD? That shit's a distinction without a difference. That's like saying scans don't show cancer, just tumors consistent with cancer.
>and it isn't even conclusive
It's a diagnostic step. You can finalize a diagnosis by testing response to treatment. Plenty of diseases and disorders work by testing response to treatment. Do you have any fucking idea how much shit can be perfectly mimicked by other conditions like lupus or conversion disorder? Do you have any idea how often diagnosing shit just breaks down to trying to treat the most common untreated thing it could be and if the treatment fails moving on to the next thing?

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_diagnosis
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis_of_exclusion

>>16702792
>>>/x/

>>16702762 (OP)
This is literally every "mental illness." Although brain scans can theoretically detect brain trauma, the diagnosis criteria for every mental illness is based on subjective interaction with the "mental health professional." That means if you say something controversial that rubs the "professional" the wrong way, they can saddle you up with a mental health diagnosis and take your rights away.

>>16702825
>That means if you say something controversial that rubs the "professional" the wrong way, they can saddle you up with a mental health diagnosis and take your rights away.
Mental health professionals can't take your rights away. That's left to judges.

You sound like someone that should see a mental health professional though.

>>16702817
>look these [conditions] are associated with [illness]
>no, you cant diagnose [illness] based on the presence of them
>no, absence of it does not imply absence of [illness]
>yes, this questionnaire is conclusive diagnosis
>yes, if your mom says you have it and I agree then you do
>yes, these medicines will have the same effects on healthy people and people with [illness]
>no, the medicine will not cure them. if you stop taking them you will still have it

>>16702868
>no, you cant diagnose [illness] based on the presence of them
You can, actually. Diagnoses are allowed to be potentially wrong. Hell, there are some diseases that will just straight up never be diagnosed because a more common disease is more likely and the less common disease doesn't have a treatment. So they'll just diagnose and treat you for the more common disease and let the less common one run its course without revisiting the diagnosis if it turns out the diagnosis is wrong.

>yes, if your mom says you have it and I agree then you do
>yes, these medicines will have the same effects on healthy people and people with [illness]
You're an idiot

>no, the medicine will not cure them. if you stop taking them you will still have it
Yes, treatable, incurable diseases and disorders exist. Are you one of those AIDS isn't caused by HIV nutters?

>>16702839
>That's left to judges.
Judges just rubber stamp whatever the mental health "professionals" say.

>You sound like someone that should see a mental health professional though.
You have nothing to base this on other than my opposition to the mental health system.

This is true for all mental disorders that aren't caused by genetic diseases or literal brain damage though, there aren't any biomarkers for schizophrenia or autism either

>>16702762 (OP)
Are you logically consistent enough to claim that every single condition which has a clinical diagnosis isn't real?

>>16702907
>You have nothing to base this on other than my opposition to the mental health system.
That's more than enough.

If I met someone that said dentists are evil, I'd say they need their teeth checked out.

>Judges just rubber stamp whatever the mental health "professionals" say.
Then professionals must be incredibly discrerning about who they lock up cause the share of the people getting mental health care that get involuntary committed is incredibly small.

>>16703832
every single condition which diagnosis relies on questionnaires and asking mom for the symptoms isn't real

>>16703871
>every single condition which diagnosis relies on questionnaires
>depression isn't real

>>16703876
it isn't, just man up

>>16703871
Congratulations! Here's a list of diagnoses in which you don't believe:

Migraine (without aura)
Tension-type headache
Cluster headache
Fibromyalgia
Complex Regional Pain Syndrome
Trigeminal neuralgia
Functional Neurological Disorder
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
Restless Legs Syndrome
Idiopathic intracranial hypertension
Benign paroxysmal positional vertigo
Major Depressive Disorder
Generalized Anxiety Disorder
Bipolar Disorder (Type I/II)
Borderline Personality Disorder
Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder
Autism Spectrum Disorder
Somatization Disorder
Illness Anxiety Disorder
Rheumatoid Arthritis
Systemic Lupus Erythematosus
Sjögren’s Syndrome
Polymyalgia Rheumatica
Ankylosing Spondylitis
Psoriatic Arthritis
Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome
Irritable Bowel Syndrome
Functional Dyspepsia
Non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity
Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome
Rumination Syndrome
Rosacea
Seborrheic Dermatitis
Lichen Planus
Chronic Urticaria
Vasovagal Syncope
Inappropriate Sinus Tachycardia
Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome
Microvascular Angina
Polycystic Ovary Syndrome
Adrenal Fatigue
Idiopathic Hypoglycemia
Interstitial Cystitis / Bladder Pain Syndrome
Chronic Prostatitis / Chronic Pelvic Pain Syndrome
Vulvodynia / Vestibulodynia
Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder
Ménière’s Disease
Temporomandibular Joint Disorder
Burning Mouth Syndrome
Idiopathic Tinnitus
Chronic Lyme Disease (post-treatment)
Gulf War Syndrome
Multiple Chemical Sensitivity
Electromagnetic Hypersensitivity
Chronic Idiopathic Constipation

Growing Pains
Benign Rolandic Epilepsy

Now go forth and revolutionize medicine by telling doctors they're doing it all wrong, champ.

>>16703881
You forgot hysterical blindness

>>16703881
thanks chatgpt for the list
"mental illnesses" like bpd, ocd and depression are made up, yes
the rest mostly have physiological, morphological, genetic alterations and it can be detected but it's cheaper to diagnose from the symptoms

>>16703847
>If I met someone that said dentists are evil, I'd say they need their teeth checked out.
By this line of reasoning, you almost certainly believe that people who criticize the police are guilty of crimes. Literally a brainless NPC opinion.

>Then professionals must be incredibly discrerning about who they lock up cause the share of the people getting mental health care that get involuntary committed is incredibly small.
You don't understand the mental health system at all. You don't understand the criteria to be involuntarily committed. In my state, you can be involuntarily committed without being a danger to either yourself or others and without committing a crime. All that has to happen is someone calls the authorities and tells them that you're "being weird" and that is enough for you to be involuntarily committed.

>>16703900
>By this line of reasoning, you almost certainly believe that people who criticize the police are guilty of crimes
The arrest and imprisonment rate in this country is an order of magnitude greater than the involuntary medical detention rate.

Acting like those things are comparable is laughable. If it matched the medical detention rate, I would look at anyone that avoids the criminal justice system as crazy.

Hell, would you rather a cop or a civil service worker perform a wellness check?

>All that has to happen is someone calls the authorities and tells them that you're "being weird" and that is enough for you to be involuntarily committed.
As I said, you should get your head examined.

>>16703909
What the hell are you talking about? I am highly doubtful that I am talking to an actual person. You completely missed the point I was making. I'm not talking about the rates of detention at all. I am saying that, by your stupid line of reasoning, anyone who criticizes an institution is guilty of whatever the institution would scrutinize.

>As I said, you should get your head examined
I have done nothing wrong.

>>16703913
>I'm not talking about the rates of detention at all. I am saying that, by your stupid line of reasoning, anyone who criticizes an institution is guilty of whatever the institution would scrutinize.
You act like I think you're ill simply because you're avoiding something and not what it is you're avoiding.

>I have done nothing wrong.
Mental illness isn't a moral failing, nutbag. I'm not criticizing you. I'm telling you to get help.

>>16703965
You're acting like I haven't been to a mental health professional. I don't have to tell you this, but I do not have a mental illness, and it's none of your business. You can't just assume that people who criticize the mental health industry do so as a result of mental illness just as you cannot assume that people who criticize police all have a criminal history. It's irrational and absurd.

>>16703968
>You're acting like I haven't been to a mental health professional
To the contrary, I'd fully believe you've been before and need to go again.

>You can't just assume that people who criticize the mental health industry do so as a result of mental illness just as you cannot assume that people who criticize police all have a criminal history
As previously stated, that's a shitty equivocation. I don't treat all criticism the same and have said nothing to imply otherwise. That's also a bad equivocation. The stronger parallel would be if I'm acting if you have a history of diagnosed mental illness, but then that would fly in the face of me "acting like you've never been to a mental health professional". If you're going to make dishonest arguments, at least make coherent dishonest arguments.

>I do not have a mental illness
Unless you're actively seeing or have very recently seen a mental health professional, you're the last person in a position to say that. A doctor that treats themself has a fool for a patient.

Maybe do a check in. It couldn't hurt.

>>16702768
>paradoxical
If only you understood how that's evidence against ADHDs existence.

>>16703876
I can tell if someone is depressed without seeing the results of a questionnaire they take. Meanwhile I've met maybe 1-2 people in my entire life whom I'd identify as potentially having ADHD.

>>16703968
>Sees a psychologist
>Has no mental illness
So why see one?

>>16703995
>To the contrary, I'd fully believe you've been before and need to go again.
Why? There are people who criticize aspects of the mental health system that are mentally healthy.

>The stronger parallel would be if I'm acting if you have a history of diagnosed mental illness
You're clearly non-human, you're incapable of understanding what I was trying to say with the analogy. You have been saying that because I am critical of a particular institution, then I should be treated by that particular institution. You then used dentistry to further the analogy. Why stop there? Why not say if you're critical of the school system, then you need to go back to school. Wouldn't hurt.

>>16703999
You don't understand the difference between past tense and present continuous tense?

>>16703881
>by telling doctors they're doing it all wrong
This is an antipsychiatry thread. If the doctor says I have Peyronie's disease I can't straighten it out by force of will like they do in The Matrix. But psychological things do.

>>16704007
>>Hate bankers
>Get a loan
>>Hate politics
>Vote
>>Hate religion
>Pray
He's laughing with those who hate the hater haters.

>>16702762 (OP)
>how is ADHD real?
Because big pharma has pills to sell you.

>>16704018
>hate society
>live in it

>>16704033
If big agriculture stopped selling food, you'd never be hungry?

>>16702762 (OP)

it's not just adhd. it's all "mental illnesses". "B-b-b-b-but there was this one study that showed 5% of schizophrenics have certain biomarkers". oh wow 5%? what about the other 95%?

>>16703825
>biomarkers for schizophrenia
Schizophrenia is heritable and shows up in MRI

>>16702762 (OP)
>how is ADHD real?
yes but it's a label for a symptom or group of overlapping conditions that we have yet to understand. It is a mistake to think that every claim of having ADHD has a definite physical or biological counterpart that can be examined and verified. Humanity is not at that level of understanding the body and brain yet

do we fully understand the mechanisms of how those things work? no. we don't know shit
it's a working label and it's more of a symptom (imo) than it is a disorder, regardless of what is written in the DSM V (which has to consider socioeconomic implications of what they label as a disorder or not)

t. ""diagnosed"" in my 30s (from behavioural observation, i.e. talking and examining my medical history and life). IQ test results went up ~1.5 stdevs after treatment; I hadn't realized how much it was intellectually impairing me. Focus and attention while driving is day and night of a difference

you do NOT want someone whose mind needs to zone out and "take a breath" every 3-5 seconds to be operating a motor vehicle

btw every average human being experiences most of the same symptoms attributed to ADHD throughout their life, maybe even daily. It's more about the frequency, intensity, and if those symptoms are disrupting that person's ability to live their life

>>16704084
You in charge of logic.

How many prescriptions are you on, idiot?

>>16702762 (OP)
every theory has some flaws

>>16704344
Thanks anon, i resonate with your post.
The concluding thing to me was meeting two twins in my master programs, they both had the same upbringing, food, education, started the same course together but one was already in the masters program while the other was struggling to graduate, he started taking ritalin(doesnt likes venvanse, we dont have adderal) and now he is being able to graduate and be even better than his twin that never had adhd symptoms or problems.
Stimulants do calm him down.
Venvanse with me makes me actually feel alive and live up to my potential. Its night and day difference, in only 2 months i went from being almost a dropout to working in a NASA funded project in a laboratory in here,
I dont think its wild to claim that for somw reason some brains has low baseline dopamine or impaired dopamine reuptake
which is different than people that fries their dopamince receptors all day with porn, coca cola and gaming and get low dopamine symptoms

>>16704377
Is the same and you know it you could read to much jane austen and fry your dopamine receptors

>>16704218
>shows up in MRI
No, patterns that are "associated to schizophrenia" show up in MRI

>>16704007
>Why? There are people who criticize aspects of the mental health system that are mentally healthy.
Because I have no reason to believe the contrary. Why the fuck would you question why I won't make assumptions about you when you were just bitching about me making assumptions about you?

>You have been saying that because I am critical of a particular institution, then I should be treated by that particular institution.
You keep saying particular institution instead of saying what you're being critical of.

>You then used dentistry to further the analogy. Why stop there? Why not say if you're critical of the school system, then you need to go back to school. Wouldn't hurt.
Because school systems don't help maintain your health, nutbag. If you were critical of going outside, I'd tell you to touch grass. If you were critical of amusement parks, I would not tell you to buy a ticket to Disney World.

That said, if you're critical of school systems and 12, yeah, get your ass back in school.

>>16704407
I think you're just a dumb troll who gets a sense of power over others by telling people to "seek help"

>>16704427
You're questioning the existence of ADHD and are worried about being locked up if you see a shrink. You have zero self-awareness.

And telling you to seek help doesn't give me power over you. You don't have to listen. It doesn't make me better than you either. Lord knows I've sought help before. And I'll seek help again if my anxiety or depression ever comes back. I'd basically be forced to. I've got a stress aggravated disorder that basically makes it impossible to function if I'm experiencing psychiatric issues on top of it. Not fun.

>>16704400
no, patterns that are caused by schizophrenia show up in MRI
learn the difference

>>16704453
>the patterns are caused by schizophrenia so they must be caused by schizophrenia
That's a circular argument.

>>16704473
schizophrenia is defined as the presence of those patterns in MRI

>>16704474
No?
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519704/table/ch3.t22/

>>16704474
No it isn't, it's a subjective diagnosis just like adhd or depression

>>16702768
>people with ADHD have a paradoxical reaction to certain stimulants
Everybody gets their focus and studying ability enhanced while on amphetamine.

>>16704767
Not everybody experiences reduced energy levels on amphetamines. I don't know if you've ever been around someone hyper off their meds but they won't fucking hold still to save their fucking lives.

>>16704831
the 'reduced energy' thing people talk about with stim usage is from being burnt out. the hyperactivity you are talking about after they come off is just body readjusting. it completely stops after a couple of weeks.

>t "adhd" haver

>>16704918
>the 'reduced energy' thing people talk about with stim usage is from being burnt out
>the hyperactivity you are talking about after they come off is just body readjusting. it completely stops after a couple of weeks.
>t "adhd" haver
No.

>t "adhd" haver