"Stop asking questions, peasant!"

>>16722706 (OP)
MD reddit boards are one of the worst places on the internet. It's full of condescending cunts who think they are literally geniuses. They hate their patients and hate their jobs.

>>16722706 (OP)
It's more like doctors and nurses have become cogs in bureaucratic machines like everyone else. They're occupied with schedules, meetings, procedures, checking boxes and filling forms to maximize efficiency and effectiveness. In such an environment there's no time or space for anyone or anything outside the predetermined pathways.

However I can't help but notice that doctors and nurses are NPC personality types. They seem to be averse to abstract and hypothetical thinking. They take pride in being down-to-earth and scoff at anything remotely resembling woo woo.

To give them the benefit of the doubt: after a lot of consideration and experience they may have come to the conclusion that a lot of alternative medicine practices are not effective while reducing the effectiveness of treatments that otherwise do work. They need to choose how they spend their time and they're done having the same arguments over and over again.

>Saar I've heard turmeric very good for inflammation saar can I just eat lentil soup instead of taking these anti-inflammatory medicines saar?

>>16722728
Good post anon

>>16722728
Anon, they're trained to think like that and they have to think like that. 90% of doctors will treat run of the mill illnesses and diseases. Thinking outside of the box and trying anything else beyond the tried and true treatments can literally get patients killed. A minority of doctors will ever get to treat the "cool", rare diseases that require out of the box thinking.

>>16722749
>tried and true treatments
A self-fulfilling prophecy. Ironically a textbook about evidence-based medicine starts with the rejection of medicine based on tradition.

>patients killed
That's only a problem because rules and regulations put all the responsibility on hospitals and doctors so they limit the patients' freedom of choice. Soon we will be in a world where people are forbidden to make decisions that are deemed bad by the government and its institutions. If everyone and everything has to be optimized for some ideal outcome then what difference is left between humanity and AI? Your ethics are not self-evidently morally superior.

>>16722749
Hospitals already kill a huge number of patients because of mistakes or negligence.

>>16722775
There would be more mistakes if they're trained to reject the norm

>>16722706 (OP)
if diet and lifestyle is often the root cause, then there's not much a doctor can do for the typical american, since telling people to stop eating like shit and exercise more rarely results in meaningful lifestyle changes.

>>16722779
they could tell them what aspects of their diet or lifestyle to change.
eg, you should stop eating paint chips and your mom's birth control pills

>>16722779
Yes, but then it might just be as simple as being allergic to the bleaching agents in US flour.
Something a simple allergy test would reveal, if done properly.

>>16722728
A lot of the bureaucracy of the modern medical system is based around a WW1/ WW2 mindset of medicine (Because those were the time periods where all the rules got hammered out.)
Theoretically, the benefits of this would be you can have a better response in a war or crisis.
But looking at covid I’m not sure it’s actually that effective as a system.
When covid hit it basically overwhelmed and forced the system to decentralize, to the point where”work from home” became a phenomenon.
Such a pathetic performance does make one wonder, is this system really all worth it?

>>16722706 (OP)
Why are these retards going to doctors to waste their time with their woowoo schizobabble
if you don't want modern medicine stay home and order your chinese horse piss or whatever online

>>16722713
>image
because unless the patient has bio-adjacent higher education he won't understand a thing you say anyway, and if they do insist on having everything explained to them and you decide that you have the spare time to talk to the pleb, you see their eyes glaze over in confusion about 5 words(words that they've never heard of in their life) in when you start explaining the """root causes""" of their disease

>>16722706 (OP)
additionally, seems like this post is talking about 'dermatology clinics' specifically, and that garbage is barely medicine anyway and is rather part of the 'beauty industry' peddling expensive procedures that do nothing to people who have self-image psych issues

>>16722936
I don't see how you can argue that in the modern, densely populated world the current system of efficiently treating maximum patients/time(which does have its downsides) is worse than the 'traditional' pre-modern doctor with an experimental and personalized approach to every patient - how many cases do you think such a doctor could do per month and how many such doctors do you think you'd need per population

There's a reason why in pre-industrial times only the aristocracy and the wealthy had access to actual doctors, whereas the commoners just walked it off or went to the local village hag/midwife for some herbal potion coupled with a magic ritual

>>16722959
it'd be funny if one of these doctors came up against me, but thanks to my knowledge i literally never see them

>>16722706 (OP)
Thankfully AI is better at diagnosing root causes than those con artists churned out by the AMA.

>>16722959
If you can't explain something in simple terms you don't understand it yourself. Sorry to break the news to you.

>>16722706 (OP)

Based. Homeopathic cures, faith healing, harmonic frequency tuning, etc. all work much better than Jewish pharmakeia medicine.

root causes shit never worked because noone changes their fucking lifestyle

see: every fat person
see: every retard with a bad back
etc

Literally 1/3rd of people actually get better to random nonsense due to placebo effect

>>16722790
simple
just run 1000 exhaustive tests that will result in inconclusive results
then run them again huh

All to please some retard who won't stop drinking beer and eating shit food

>>16722959
>'smart' fag has an ego
Figures

>>16722706 (OP)
>be me
>go to emergency room
>use words
>"no, that isn't a thing"
>person checking me in comes back
>uses the same words I did
>...
...

>>16723065
Missing disciplines:
>dietary therapy
>corporal punishment

>>16723207
>>16723056
>>16723051
>triggered some 'truthseekers'

>>16723257
You sound like an Orwellian stooge, hope you know that.

>>16723262
>oh my god it's just like my heckin 1984
imagine if you actually read that book instead of picking up that adjective from watching joe rogan

>>16722706 (OP)
Because these gay ass "root cause" questions always are asked in bad faith. It comes with this built in assumption that doctors would somehow not default to treated this "root cause" if such a thing existed in any coherent way.

Since we're talking about dermatology here:
>hey doctor, what's causing my pimples?
>dead skin and body oils clogging your pores. Here's some cream that cleans out dead skin and body oils from your pores.
Non retards would thank said doctor and walk away with their cream. But now we have retards asking stupid shit like
>oh, but what's the "root cause" of the dead skin and oils clogging my pores?
So the doctor has to have the stupid discussion along the lines of:
>It's a combination of a lot of things ranging from genetics to poor hygiene to diet to, much less often, some underlying condition. If you want the problem solved first step is to use the cream I handed you because it works for 90% of people. If the problem persists we can give you another evaluation to see if you're in that 10% group that needs some other intervention.
At this point, though, the patient has already stopped listening anyway and they'll end up consulting Google as if it will tell you something your doctor's trying to hide from you.

It's fucking retarded.

>>16723056
This is one of those phrases retards parrot around to avoid admitting they're too retarded to understand something.

Sure, anyone could teach a 5 year old pythag theorem in terms he would understand. But they'd either have to dumb things down to such an extent that the kid wouldn't be able to do anything meaningful with it or you'd need a half hour lecture to get the kid to the point where he at least understands what a square root is so he could perform the calculation.

If you're not at the level of understanding where it takes a minute tops to summarize something in terms you comprehend, you're not ready to have a conversation about it.

>>16723271
Basically this, usmle step 1 is about nothing BUT learning the risk factors and pathophysiology of most common diseases that we know the info for in current literature
Problem is that laymen don't know this so they think we don't care about actually treating the root cause - despite the fact that most medications impact some pathway or mechanism involved in causing the disease and the root cause is a mixture of modifiable (which they refuse to change) and nonmodifiable (why they can't change) risk factors

>>16723265
You can't imagine much with that lack of internal monologue

>>16723265
it's thanks to geniuses such as yourself that we've all learned that men can get pregnant

>>16722728
Did you know nutrition is studied for less than 2 days in medicine school?
This is information straight from doctors themselves.

>>16723308
>more grifter buzzwords
>>16723315
>unrelated trannyposting

weak energy today /pol/tards

>>16723350
Unironically "grifter buzzwords" is a buzzword, but I wouldn't expect you to pick up on how susceptible you are to propaganda. You are a literal NPC brain and you aren't as smart as you think you are. Miserable twit.

>muh orwell
>muh lack of internal monologue
>muh propaganda
>muh NPC
what's next on your algorithm, gonna call me a midwit?

>>16723350
>unrelated
>trannyposting
The form of your response indicates accuracy. Were it misplaced, one would expect something akin to "Wait, what?"

>>16722775
and you wanna add to that?

>>16723330
Why do doctors need more days and memorize thousands of pages about metabolism on the molecular level just to understand that one should eat fresh plants and fresh animal products and drink water which should not be poisoned by greedy business men?

DRUGS ARE LE BAD
SURGERIES AND THERAPIES ARE LE BAD
RED MEAT IS LE GOOD

>>16725311
DRUGS ARE LE GOOD
SURGERIES AND THERAPIES ARE LE GOOD
EAT THE ONIONS

Almost all med students and almost all practicing doctors are straight up the biggest fucking cunts to ever exist. I hate them so much its unreal. I've violently assaulted seven of them in the last year alone and I wish more people would do the same. Doctors and medical students would be infinitely less cunty if they were violently beaten like we used to do with the fags.

>>16723299
A lot of medication is just fighting symptoms and not the cause. I agree that most ignore doctors about not smoking or excercising but if a patient takes intrest it is your job to at least try to entertain them.

>>16722706 (OP)
>because...because it just is ok?? now buy these pills

>>16725862
>A lot of medication is just fighting symptoms and not the cause
I have to ask: what does this mean to you?
I would like an example of how this is a remotely valid criticism of the medical industry.

>if a patient takes intrest it is your job to at least try to entertain them.
See this post: >>16723271
If someone is asking "root cause" type questions, the probability the patient isn't going to trust/listen to what doctors say anyway is a rounding error away from 1.

The doctor's job isn't to satisfy your curiosity. It's to make whatever problem you came in for go away.

It's true though. I started having bad back pain a few years ago and it's all
>dude surgeries and procedures
>those don't work? dude, more procedures
>dude medication

when it what's actually helped me feel better is Vit D3, stretches and staying more active. The so called 'professionals' didn't do a damn thing.

>>16725845
signs plastered all over any medical office be like:
>uhh its a felony to talk back to medical staff

then not being good medical staff should be a felony as well

>>16722713
Look at our /med/ general and tell me with a straight face it's any different

>>16726108
>The doctor's job isn't to satisfy your curiosity.
>No, I do not understand informed consent and I do not care
Suicide

>>16726204
>I do not understand informed consent and I do not care
Speak for yourself, retard.
Informed consent means the patient is made aware of potential side effects of the procedure or medication prescribed as well as any viable alternatives if available. It doesn't mean it's the doctor's job to summarize the entire present body of knowledge about your particular condition to you.

>dermatology clinic
OP you're a retard for not picking up on this key qualifier stated in the post.

>>16722959
>because unless the patient has bio-adjacent higher education he won't understand a thing you say anyway
any bored neet with internet access can understand your jargon you egotistic fart sniffer
your attitude to patients puts you somewhere between an apple store employee and a tech support call center goblin, same energy

>>16722706 (OP)
I've already seen how 90% of these "root cause" questions go
>What's the cause of X
>It's because you're obese
>Yeah, but what's the root cause of X
>That you're 500lbs
>But what's the actual root of the issue
>That you eat an entire cheesecake for breakfast
Then sometime later
>Doctors only consider my obesity, they're not looking at me holistically
It's a neverending battle because, like it or not, most people are lazy retards. You ask most people: do you want a cream/ointment/pill/whatever, or do you want to enact long lasting lifestyle and diet changes? Almost to a man, they'll pick the medical intervention instead of doing actual change. That's what's frustrating. Also
>Social media personalities
Nigga, who the FUCK is getting medical advice from the internet, let alone "social media personalities", holy fuck. Can you imagine getting your medical opinion from some insta thot that thinks cancer can be cured by realigning your chakras (naturally they can do it for you, just $900, bargain!) Although, if I'm honest I actually support that kind of choice, the fewer dysgenic retards in the world the better.

>>16726243
>Nigga, who the FUCK is getting medical advice from the internet, let alone "social media personalities"
The roughly 50% of /pol/ and /x/ that aren't trolling.
The entirety of the bro-science/stoner-science/hippy-science sphere is retards that watched some YouTube "documentary" that purports to expose all the secrets that big pharma doesn't want you to know.

>>16722728
Complete nonsense. They do no research whatosever, this isn't even in earshot of their core curriculum. They are brainwashed and know that their livelihood and sanity require submission.

>>16726622
>They are brainwashed
No they know.

and know that their livelihood and sanity require submission.
That's more like it.

>They do no research whatosever, this isn't even in earshot of their core curriculum.
Hyperbolic. They're required to read journals, attend lectures, take an exam once in a while and such. Even if not required: naturally any professional in any field will learn and do extracurricular stuff. There's no chef that only ever cooks regurgitated recipes during work hours.

>Doctor why do I have shitty skin
>I don't know but here's an ointment that'll deal with i-
>WTF why didn't you look into my life and find the exact reason why my skin is fucked
>Well what is going on in your life that could cause it?
>Nevermind I'm going to find online some natural remedies that will cure this I just found one that's a tincture which uses bats

>>16722775
>Hospitals already kill a huge number of patients because of mistakes or negligence.
So let's make it even worse?

>>16726243
>Nigga, who the FUCK is getting medical advice from the internet, let alone "social media personalities"

Have you ever met anyone who regularly uses a chiropractor and falls for MLM's?

>>16722728
You're saying doctors have succumbed to being cogs in the machine, yet you blame the cog and not the person who runs the machine.
Most doctors are overworked and burned out, because hiring more doctors would eat into the profits of hospitals. Most doctors contend with chronic diseases whose root cause is "it was profitable for someone else". Obesity and chronic inflammation? Sugar is profitable. Chronic exposure to air pollution? Oil is profitable. Chronic stress and anxiety? Working to the brink of exhaustion is profitable.
Doctors do more good than harm in general, but there are underlying issues that medicine simply cannot solve, and blaming doctors for that is really just unproductive.

>>16727236
What's wrong with chiropractors? My spine was clearly misaligned.

>>16726215
>jargon
lol

>>16722966
You’re missing my point.
The existing system broke down in 2020, into that experimental and personalized approach.
People had to self isolate and some even self diagnosed turning to ivermectin or whatever.

The issue is, except for the crippling isolation, it was honestly fine.
Very few people died from “unprofessional advice” and most just winged it using common sense. Those that took ivermectin were fine because it’s a safe drug, a placebo at worst.
The ability for the system to prevent or contain the crisis failed and that alone puts its legitimacy into question.

>>16727434
>The existing system broke down in 2020
you only say that and the rest of your irrelevant points because you're a zoomer for whom muh covid was a defining milestone of their life and now everything revolves around it

>>16722786
>YOU VILL EAT ZE PAINT CHIPS AND BIRTH CONTROL PILLS

>>16722961
they chopped some sussy moles off me once, I appreciate that

>>16727275
Hold your socialist horses for a moment and see that the profit motive was once upon a time aligned with permanent solutions but is now aligned with temporary solutions. Neither the cogs nor those who run the machine are solely victims or perpetrators.

>there are underlying issues that medicine simply cannot solve, and blaming doctors for that is really just unproductive.
Still, after all the posts in this thread, distracting from the point that resources are purposely misdirected on a scale never seen before in history so any conclusion about what we can and can not do with the resources we have is premature.

>>16722706 (OP)
the question that you should be asking is when will the pharma lobby stop stalking and trying to force doctors prescriptions through "gifts" and favors
if we don't care, no one else will

>>16722706 (OP)
He's right. It's not the doctor's job to research the myriad possible root causes of your disease. In fact they will tell you that most diseases are caused by people being fat and inactive. I agree doctors should be responsible for their patients' broader health, in an ideal world, but in REALITY they are not, and most patients are unwilling and unable to really fix their health anyway.

>>16727464
In most cases it's just different pharma companies trying to make doctors prescribe their brand name medication rather than a competitor's with the same active ingredients; rather than a different medication altogether
Although it depends on the spec, some specs do have a much higher prevalence of prescribing bullshit that does nothing but is expensive(specs that deal with milder issues, obviously something like anesthesia or emergency medicine doesn't really have that because the stakes are much higher - a drug either does its job or it doesn't, there's no room for 'ummm actually studies show that if you buy this pill for 10 years your heart attack risk decreases by 0.2%')

>>16722706 (OP)
Medical science is the biggest scam ever they should be asking questions.

If they cant determine cause and effect instantly and produce results that work not guesswork then the price you pay for treatment is worth it. Most of the time doctors have no idea what’s going on

Health industry sells you poison in order to make more money, this is basic 101 fact.

>>16727446
Are you retarded? In the machine analogy, the ones running the machine are the ones who make the profit. Basically companies got too good at making things and rich people found out that in most fields that fucks with your profits, so they shifted the world to being based on short term gain.

>>16727613
No, it's retarded bullshit hippies and /pol/ schizos assert blindly based on zero evidence. Probably based on propaganda from the natural food/supplements industry.

>>16722706 (OP)
>my source is reddit

>>16726209
>Insults, condescending tone, "not my job"
Ah yes you are in the profession for sure
When is your suicide and will you please live stream it? I'm a busy man, and I'd like to add it to my calendar

>>16726243
>Everyone but me is fat and that is the cause of all ailments
But I'm not fat
>ITS NOT MY JOB TO TELL YOU WHAT CAUSED YOUR DISEASE OK? TAKE THE FUCKING PILLS
Lmfao
Suicide

>>16726243
>this smug zoomer doesn't know who Dr. Oz was on Oprah

>>16726243
>Nigga, who the FUCK is getting medical advice from the internet
Doctors mainly

My only reason for this shit is that I've had chronic fatigue for over 15 years. If any doctor could help me, I wouldn't question them.

>I've had chronic fatigue for over 15 years
>'i'm a lazy piece of shit and i found an excuse that removes responsibility from me'

>>16728538
I fainted twice, but all my labs were always good. When this started I was going to the gym 4 times per week.

>>16727434
This is a good normalfag way of putting it.

>>16723271
So basically you just don't know the root cause and refuse to admit to your own ignorance.

>>16729972
Basically the root cause doesn't actually matter if it doesn't affect how you treat it.

>>16730439
This is the most clear, precise, cogent, and coherent condemnation of medical science that could possibly be stated.

>>16730439
>>16730607
include me in the screencap

>>16730439
How come MDs don't just admit this alongside their own ignorance, and instead start acting all uppity because the lesser caste patient dared to question their authority and expertise? They went to medical school, you know!

>>16730607
>>16730746
>doctor, I have a bullet in my chest cavity. Please help.
>now now, let me ascertain what the root cause of the bullet in your chest is first.

Medicine is about treating illness. If you want to get autistically into the weeds of how, exactly, a microbe is doing its thing in your body then you talk to a microbiologist or a biochemist or some shit. The doctor's job is to do the thing that makes the bad thing go away.
You're asking your local plumber for a crash course in hydrodynamics. Of course he's going to get irritated with you.

reminder: 9 out of 10 medical interventions are not supported by hard evidence
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35447356/


>>16730781
>doubles down
>"you see, Im a doctor, Im expected to DO SOMETHING ( even if Im not exactly sure what I am doing)"

>>16730789
>reminder: 9 out of 10 medical interventions are not supported by hard evidence
Here's the full article text:
https://boris.unibe.ch/169432/1/1-s2.0-S0895435622001007-main.pdf

Note that the study relied on the accuracy of Cochrane Reviews. Meaning the studies in the meta-analysis found these interventions ineffective.
How is it any surprise to you that 9/10 clinical trials don't yield positive results? Only the 1/10 that do work end up being used outside of the clinical trials that were cited in this study.

>>16730799
>How is it any surprise to you that 9/10 clinical trials don't yield positive results?
zero reading comprehension confirmed
how did you get your medicine title?

>>16730803
Are you stupid?
>We selected a random sample of 2428 (35%) of all Cochrane Reviews published between 1 January 2008 and 5 March 2021. We extracted data about interventions within these reviews that were compared with placebo, or no treatment, and whose outcome quality was rated using Grading of Recommendations Assessment, Development and Evaluation (GRADE). We calculated the proportion of interventions whose effectiveness was based on high-quality evidence according to GRADE, had statistically significant positive effects, and were judged as beneficial by the review authors. We also calculated the proportion of interventions that suggested harm.

>>16730803
Retard alert retard alert
How are you supposed to know whether or not something is effective if you don't test it and find it's ineffective or causes harm compared to current gold standard per the goals you set

Cochrane reviews are about looking at the evidence around a proposed intervention to see if it should be included in practice for that indication

>>16730781
So they shouldn't understand how their medicine works or what it is treating, they are essentially just there to dispense medicines like pharmacists because pharmacists can't be trusted?

>>16730828
A doctor is the guy doing the diagnostics to figure out what your problem is then evaluating which treatment option is best for you.
For some conditions the cause is going to be specific, like influenza, but others are more like what I laid out here:
>>16723271

The doctor only needs to know what's causing your condition insofar as how it affects your treatment. Some conditions have similar symptoms to others that you absolutely wouldn't treat the same way and that's why you need a professional who's trained to differentiate the two.

>>16722706 (OP)
>"Stop asking questions, peasant!"

Expect the AMA to DEMAND that AIs not be allowed to give medical advise.
How DARE people get the best medical advise for FREE!
Expect laws to be passed banning AI from giving ANY medical advise.

>>16730828
That's what they are, yes. 99% of doctor work is just doing what pharmaceutical and other medical corporations pay them to prescribe.
0 critical thinking, 0 questioning of authority. Most MDs are just trashy retarded authoritarian personalities obsessed with status.

>>16730851
>what pharmaceutical and other medical corporations pay them to prescribe
This is literally illegal retard

>>16730781
That's a completely incorrect argument.
The symptoms being treated are the bleeding and the hole in the chest cavity. The root cause is the bullet fired into the patient's chest.
Of course the MD has to recognize the root cause of gunshot wound to the chest to adequately treat the injuries at hand.

>Medicine is about treating illness. If you want to get autistically into the weeds of how, exactly, a microbe is doing its thing in your body then you talk to a microbiologist or a biochemist or some shit. The doctor's job is to do the thing that makes the bad thing go away.
>You're asking your local plumber for a crash course in hydrodynamics. Of course he's going to get irritated with you.
And as said before, doctors do not actually know what the fuck they are doing, but are unwilling to admit to this because of their massive fucking egos. This causes an untold amount of deaths due to medical malpractice each year.

>>16730854
Oh shit, crime doesn't happen because it's illegal. There's no more lobbying or bribery or paid studies that at best get left unpublished if they suggest realities going against whatever narrative the people financing it want, but at worst get manipulated directly to propose whatever benefits the financiers. Oh, there's also no more pharmaceutical representatives going to doctors and pushing them into prescribing their product.
Fuck me, there's no opiate crisis either! That never happened, cause that would have been illegal.

Eat shit and choke to death on it, you fucking subhuman nigger.

>>16730858
>the MD has to recognize the root cause of gunshot wound to the chest
It actually doesn't change management in most scenarios if there is a bullet still in there though for example, you don't go fishing for it

>>16730858
>The root cause is the bullet fired into the patient's chest.
In the same sense that "the root cause" of acne is dead skin and oils clogging your pores. That doesn't stop retards form pestering doctors about the next layer down which is my entire fucking point.

>And as said before, doctors do not actually know what the fuck they are doing
But they, by and large, do.

>untold amount of deaths due to medical malpractice each year.
The stats on that are openly available. It's hardly "untold."
Bear in mind "malpractice" includes everything from negligence to misdiagnosis to nurses misreading the doctor's handwriting.

>crime doesn't happen
Nobody's suggesting that. But when you make the generalization like:
>99% of doctor work is just doing what pharmaceutical and other medical corporations pay them to prescribe.
You're outing yourself as a moron.
The number of doctors that would risk their entire (quite lucrative, I might add) career and potential prison time for a few extra bucks is a small minority.

>>16730867
Getting as much of the bullet out is the first thing you should do to avoid infection, metal poisoning, and cancerous growths.

>>16730868
>In the same sense that "the root cause" of acne is dead skin and oils clogging your pores. That doesn't stop retards form pestering doctors about the next layer down which is my entire fucking point.
And the underlying fact is that the doctor DOES NOT KNOW the next layer down, but refuses to admit to it, because he is supremely egotistic.
>But they, by and large, do.
Then it's even worse, as the malpractice and poor attitudes are fully intentional, and as such the hatred of MDs is far too low. It would be somewhat understandable if they were just honest mistakes and humane failures, but if they by and large know what they're doing, then they are certainly outright antisocial actors.
>The stats on that are openly available. It's hardly "untold."
What are you, autistic?
>Bear in mind "malpractice" includes everything from negligence to misdiagnosis to nurses misreading the doctor's handwriting.
It also includes doctors not knowing what the fuck they're doing, but pretending like they do to maintain their ego and status.
>Nobody's suggesting that. But when you make the generalization like:
Read the rest of the text, you nigger.
>Oh shit, crime doesn't happen because it's illegal. There's no more lobbying or bribery or paid studies that at best get left unpublished if they suggest realities going against whatever narrative the people financing it want, but at worst get manipulated directly to propose whatever benefits the financiers. Oh, there's also no more pharmaceutical representatives going to doctors and pushing them into prescribing their product.
>Fuck me, there's no opiate crisis either!
Most of the corruption happens above the heads of individual doctors, where these corporations pay people way above the MDs' paygrades and intelligence to push their products regardless if they are harmful or not. Hence, the opioid crisis. The dynamic remains. Corporations pay for doctors to push their product.

>>16730874
>And the underlying fact is that the doctor DOES NOT KNOW the next layer down
And it is not relevant in the same sense that where the bullet came from is not relevant when it's currently lodged in someone's chest. How stupid are you?

>as the malpractice and poor attitudes are fully intentional
How common do you think malpractice is?

>It also includes doctors not knowing what the fuck they're doing, but pretending like they do to maintain their ego and status.
Yeah, and you're acting as if that's the primary cause.
Hint: it's most often just straight up negligence. This is a real problem that does happen.
When a doctor is overworked and some hypochondriac comes into the ER for the 5th fucking time in the last 5 years claiming to have heart attack symptoms, a lot of doctors aren't exactly keen on giving him the extra special treatment he might need and they're more likely to miss the signs that it's real this time.
There's no excuse for that behavior, but surely you're not too stupid to understand why this happens.

>Most of the corruption happens above the heads of individual doctors
And so is unrelated to the topic of this thread.

>>16730781
What's happening is that people are essentially asking doocters "... but how do I know you're treating the cause and not just masking the symptoms/doing damage control on behalf of the system making me ill?" and the doocters get mad because it's exactly what they're doing. Simple as.

>>16730871
Why do I bother talking to you rubes online

>>16730883
>And it is not relevant
It is entirely relevant to the argument that doctors do not know what they are doing; they do not understand the root cause and are simply repeating what another authority told them to do, regardless of if it is helpful or likely to cause iatrogenic harm. Again, the opioid crisis is the perfect example of this.
You can protect your ego all you want, but this remains true.
>How common do you think malpractice is?
Far too common.
>There's no excuse for that behavior, but surely you're not too stupid to understand why this happens.
Because MDs are egotistic cunts obsessed with status over what their job is actually supposed to be about. That much is blatantly clear.
>And so is unrelated to the topic of this thread.
Not at all. It's the habit of the authoritarian personalities working as MDs to simply push for whatever treatment their superiors order them to without question or deeper understanding, because MDs are primarily egotistic authoritarian personalities who do not know what they are doing, yet are overly obsessed with status. That's why they became MDs in the first place.
They lack the intellectualism or critical thinking abilities to question either themselves, their work or their orders and so go on to cause significant harm to patients they are supposed to help.
This is also why it's very much important for patients to question their doctors to see what kind of personalities they are, and whether they hold any interest in the patient's wellbeing, as well as if they have any understanding of the underlying root causes or mechanics in whatever they are supposedly trying to treat.
Most doctors absolutely fail at this, and so can not be relied on for your personal health. Only highly paid specialists in private practices might somewhat be relied on, while GPs aren't worth their weight in shit and will get replaced by AI soon enough.

Also this for arms and legs

>>16730886
>talking about chest cavity
>post about the abdomen

>completely miss the point that the "gunshot wound to the abdomen" is the root cause that has to be understood for any of this to be applied
God, I pity whatever poor fucker ends up in your clinic.

>>16730889
>extremities
Why are you not posting the chest cavity quote?

>>16730883
>How common do you think malpractice is?
Common enough to be a leading cause of death.

>>16730886
>not necessarily
Yea because the bullet is not necessarily in tact and like they mentioned it may have exited, but you still have to repair the abdomen even if the bullet is fragmentary or exited, so the exploratory measures aren't necessarily just to remove the bullet, so even if there is no bullet to remove that would still be done to look for tissue that needs repaired too.

>>16730884
>how do I know you're treating the cause and not just masking the symptoms/doing damage control on behalf of the system making me ill?
Wonderful question: if the problem recurs after treatment, that could be an indication that there's an underlying condition that may need addressing. May warrant further evaluation depending on what those symposium are and the severity of what could be causing it.
If it does not, however, then whatever the problem was was transient and didn't need any further treatment.

>>16730888
>It is entirely relevant to the argument that doctors do not know what they are doing
Look again at the acne example I gave.
Tons of things can cause it. We could run a battery of tests on your insurance provider's dime to rule out tons of conditions that affect maybe 1 in 1000 people.
Alternatively, we can just prescribe ou some cream that works for 90% of people. If that doesn't help, maybe a second evaluation is in order.

>Far too common.
Even once is "too common." But you're acting like malpractice is just part of a doctor's daily routine.

>Because MDs are egotistic cunts obsessed with status over what their job is actually supposed to be about.
Because doctors are human. Humans have biases. Humans make mistakes. Doctors, luckily, are trained to avoid these things. And most of the time they do a good job of it.

And I'm not reading the rest of that shit.
Yeah, most doctors will default to default treatments for routine conditions. Whether you want to make a grand conspiracy about it is your prerogative.
Ofc it does fall on the doctor if they don't check for contraindications (ie, don't give blood thinners to someone with a bleeding disorder) so your point about them not using critical thinking is nonsense.

>>16730900
>Look again at the acne example I gave.
All you need to do is to admit you don't know. That's all you have to do.
Just admit to being a human just like the patient you are treating, stop focusing on your own ego and status and try to meet the patient as a fellow human being.
That's all it takes.
That's it.
Nothing more.
It's so simple.
Just say the words
>I don't know
and try to keep your ego intact as the narcissistic wound you've taken from this action tears at your soul and breaks your heart and all your self-worth.
> But you're acting like malpractice is just part of a doctor's daily routine.
Yes it is, that's why the opioid crisis is a thing. Iatrogenic harm is a doctor's daily routine.
>Doctors, luckily, are trained to avoid these things
lol
lmao
OPIOID CRISIS. How many times do I have to repeat it?
>Ofc it does fall on the doctor if they don't check for contraindications (ie, don't give blood thinners to someone with a bleeding disorder) so your point about them not using critical thinking is nonsense.
There is no critical thinking involved in doing things by the book. That is the exact opposite of critical thinking. Way to prove my point.

>>16730891
Here's a short article on that myth.
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/critical-thinking-health/medical-error-not-third-leading-cause-death

Realistically, though, there's less than 20,000 claims of malpractice in the US per year. That includes all injuries and not just the ones that won their cases.

>>16730900
>if the problem recurs after treatment, that could be an indication that there's an underlying condition that may need addressing
You mean like all the "chronic" conditions the illness-industrial complex makes a living off of "treating"?

>>16730903
>umm sweaty this is deboonked by a government-funded institution

>>16730902
>All you need to do is to admit you don't know.
I'm pretty sure that's kinda implicit. Of course I don't know why you, as an individual, have acne. And I won't know unless I run a battery of pointless tests that mean nothing in the face of how you treat it.

>opioid crisis
That's not malpractice.

>There is no critical thinking involved in doing things by the book.
Part of "the book" says "use your fucking brain and know the contraindications for the standard meds so you don't prescribe them to the wrong person."
Not to mention diagnostics itself requires critical thinking. There's no "diagnosis machine" that spits out a verdict you're expected to take at face value.

>>16730904
See THIS is an interesting thread to tug on.
Yes! There are absolutely chronic conditions we don't know how to cure or what is even really causing them. And if you ask a doctor about these afflictions that is exactly what they'll tell you. It's an area of ongoing research but until we actually have answers the best we can do is manage the symptoms. You sure as fuck aren't going to find a cure on some hippy's blog

hey uhh guys if le doctors are so bad and dumb how about you just don't go to them?

>>16730902
>OPIOID CRISIS
>it's the doctors' fault that dumbass americans get addicted to fent
lol

>>16730912
>There are absolutely chronic conditions we don't know how to cure or what is even really causing them.
Depending on who you mean by "we", "we" may have some pretty good guesses that doocters really don't like thinking about.

>And if you ask a doctor about these afflictions that is exactly what they'll tell you.
On average, the doocter will tell you to shut the fuck up and take your meds. If it's a very friendly and educated doocter, he will tell you a just-so story about how your body is just malfunctioning and there's nothing to do about it except to take your meds.

>>16730919
>we" may have some pretty good guesses that doocters really don't like thinking about.
I assure you the geneticists, microbiologists, biochemists, etc. that have dedicated their lives to studying these conditions have much better guesses than you or some YouTuber will ever come up with on the matter.

>>16730923
I interpret this regression into the most generic possible LLM-tier talking point as a concession of both of my points.

>>16730924
Nah. It's just a simple fact that these people are more educated on the matter and, more importantly, have spent more time actively thinking about it.

What other point did you even make?

>>16730928
It blows my mind how normie redditors still come here trying to sell babby's first thought-terminating cliche thinking it still flies after the COVID fiasco.

>>16722778
>There would be more mistakes if they're trained to reject the norm
The whole MEDIC (medicine industrial complex) is made to hold the patient in a state that did not kill him but keeps him dependent. It deliberately makes healthy humans ill (starting with baby vaxx) and continues until end. Modern medicine has huge benefits, but a lot of satanics too.

>>16723277
What's an example of this with root causes of disease though

>>16730886
>kaplan
lmao.

>>16725862
>symptoms
That's usually the healing process they depress. But there are NPC's on both sides and the one that want a cure is not willing to take responsibility for is own health and happy to delegate that to an "expert2.

>>16726199
That's how all doctors are. They act high and mighty even though their only skill is rote memorization. For all the memes about AI replacing peoples' jobs, doctor is the one job a computer can actually do easily and better than a human (not even AI, just an ordinary computer matching symptoms, risk factors, and genetic data to a database of probable causes). Excluding surgeons since they have mechanical skill.

>>16730806
sweaty we're discussing causality here, from the study you link:
>They found that 22.5% of healthcare
interventions report evidence of a positive effect.
which is different from "the proportion of interventions whose effectiveness was based on high-quality evidence according to GRADE, had statistically significant positive effects, and were judged as beneficial by the authors".
so it's 77.5% interventions without a positive effect
One in 10 refers to "interventions had a first listed primary outcome with evidence
rated as high quality"
6.8% "also had a positive, statistically significant result"
and 5.6% "were also rated by review authors as being at least very likely to be effective"

>the studies in the meta-analysis found these interventions ineffective.
the studies in the meta-analysis couldnt prove these interventions were effective.

again, we're discussing CAUSALITY here

>>16730806
sweaty, we're discussing causality here, from the study you link:
>They found that 22.5% of healthcare interventions report evidence of a positive effect.
which is different from "the proportion of interventions whose effectiveness was based on high-quality evidence according to GRADE, had statistically significant positive effects, and were judged as beneficial by the authors".

So it's 77.5% interventions without a positive effect
One in 10 refers to "interventions had a first listed primary outcome with evidence rated as high quality"
6.8% "also had a positive, statistically significant result"
And 5.6% "were also rated by review authors as being at least very likely to be effective"

>the studies in the meta-analysis found these interventions ineffective.
the studies in the meta-analysis couldnt prove these interventions were effective.

again, we're discussing CAUSALITY here

>>16731284
>>They found that 22.5% of healthcare interventions report evidence of a positive effect.
That was in reference to an entirely different study. And it was a study conducted in 2001 whereas this study we're discussing didn't include any reviews prior to 2008.
Completely different study with a completely different dataset.

It's worth noting that studies which did not use GRADE as a metric were outright excluded from this analysis. They weren't part of the 9/10. They just weren't part of the sample.

>>16727691
What was the 3rd leading cause of death in the USA again? Is curing a patient a profitable business model? Do patients get informed consent?

>>16728546
I would start at Bifidobacteria and allergies.

>>16732222
Retard: >>16730903

>>16732234
Imagine posting a pop science article from a government funded "debunking" website. Get your booster, it's safe and effective.

>>16732243
How about I just paste the relevant bits for you?
>The report took two studies, one done in Colorado and Utah and the other in New York, and extrapolated their results to all hospital admissions in the United States, concluding that between 44,000 and 98,000 Americans must be dying each year as a result of medical errors.
In a separate paper:
>The authors looked at the few studies that had been published on the problem since the Institute of Medicine report. They took the mean death rate from medical error from those studies and extrapolated them to the total number of U.S. hospital admissions in 2013. After adding that this extrapolation was surely an underestimation of the actual problem, they concluded that this would mean medical error would rank third in the Centers for Disease Control’s list of causes of death in the U.S.
So the #3 cause of death claim was literally pulled out of someone's ass under the logic that "the studys that have been done must be an underestimate.

This second paper itself was unironically just a cry for more funding. The same sort of shit that you would recognize if it took the form of "global warming is worse than any of the published data claims and the only way we can truly quantify it is more of your tax money!"

But you don't care. This time it confirms your biases so you'll let it slide I'm sure. Malpractice is fucking everywhere and the only reason we don't see aany evidence of this is because you're not paying enough taxes.

>>16722706 (OP)
>0% of patients asked these questions
utter lie. by pareto principle, the baseline would be either 20% or 80%
rather, her words would imply doctors just outright refused to listen (to the 20%) until now

>>16732234
Only counting malpractice suits doesn't take into account most of the deaths that arise from the fact that doctors massively over-prescribe deadly medicine which is the main driver of the epidemic of medical error deaths.

>what is the root cause of my disease
90% of the time it's "You're fucking fat" and if you tell them that they get mad

>>16732474
>Only counting malpractice suits
This is absolutely a valid criticism.
>most of the deaths that arise from the fact that doctors massively over-prescribe deadly medicine
This is not.

Death of a loved one is still considered damages that you can sue for. If someone dies from an overdose of a prescribed medication while following doctor's orders, then you can bet your ass their immediate family will sue for damages.
However: judging the amount of malpractice deaths based purely on lawsuits is a very shit heuristic.
I have no idea how many of these cases succeeded or failed. I have no idea how many of these cases resulted in someone's death. I have no idea if this figure is even accurate since I just lazily pulled it from here:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/248175
They say 15,000-19,000 so I generalized it to "less than 20,000." But the source they cite gives a 404 so... yeah.
I justify all of this as a "Feynman estimate" in that the over and under estimates more than likely cancel out to give an accurate answer within at least a factor of 10. You'd have to be a pretty disingenuous fuck to err high or low on this metric so shoot for the middle.

The "3rd leading cause of death" estimate places their value at a factor of over 20 above this estimate.
In other words: it's complete bullshit.

>>16732481
>Death of a loved one is still considered damages that you can sue for.
Not really its pretty much impossible to win and it almost 100% comes down to the fact that the patient chose to take it and did it to themselves and it doesn't even account for all the people that died of prescription drugs that don't really have a large social circle with enough vested interest to try to bring lawsuits against their doctors, look at oxycontin, even knowing fraud was involved in the fda process, it took decades for just some of the families to get any kind of settlement and that was after a huge industry of class action lawsuits arose to nickel and dime them and they still got a fraction of what they were seeking especially after considering time and legal costs.

>>16732485
>Not really its pretty much impossible to win
It's not about who wins. That's a variable I don't know. I just cited lawsuits in general.

>comes down to the fact that the patient chose to take it and did it to themselves
If they were warned of the risks and given typical doses, it is not malpractice.
>doesn't even account for all the people that died of prescription drugs that don't really have a large social circle
This is exactly what I was talking about when I said "only counting malpractice lawsuits is absolutely a valid criticism."
>oxycontin
The low payouts were because most of those patients who became dependent refused services like NA that were offered to them. The medical industry gave them the opportunity to find a way out of their addiction and they chose to be addicts anyway.
I'm not denigrating these people. I understand addiction is a bitch and programs are gay. But their overdoses were almost never a result of doctor prescription and largely because they were getting shit off the street.

>>16732490
>I just cited lawsuits in general.
So you are counting every dismissed lawsuit with no merit as positive malpractice examples?

>If they were warned of the risks and given typical doses, it is not malpractice.
Not even if the risks and doses they were warned and prescribed were based on fraud such as with oxycontin?

>I'm not denigrating these people.
No, you are just agreeing with me that they aren't and can't be accounted for in your metrics.

>But their overdoses were almost never a result of doctor prescription
Except it almost always was because the doctors were lying about the drugs because the producers were lying to the doctors.

>largely because they were getting shit off the street.
Because there were several states that were allowing doctors to way way way overprescribe to the point that a national black market trade was quite profitable.

>>16732496
>So you are counting every dismissed lawsuit with no merit as positive malpractice examples?
Correct. See: Feynman estimate"
>Not even if the risks and doses they were warned and prescribed were based on fraud such as with oxycontin?
Can you find examples of people taking the prescribed dose and overdosing?
>>16732496
>Except it almost always was because the doctors were lying about the drugs because the producers were lying to the doctors.
The oxycontin case was about the industry lying with regard to dependency. I'm not personally aware of lies in regard to toxicity but I could be wrong. See my second point in this post about that.
>>16732496
>Because there were several states that were allowing doctors to way way way overprescribe to the point that a national black market trade was quite profitable.
This is a fun point to argue. After "the opioid crisis" became the meme it now is, many patients with chronic pain have to fight for adequate dosage.
Pain management is an issue I'm willing to disregard outright for this debate. Pain is a subjective phenomenon and sometimes doctors are duped.
If a patient lied about how much pain they were in, it is the doctors' job nowadays (though I think it shouldn't be) to test if they're lying out their ass.
Modern regulations have made it harder for people with genuine need to get the pain meds they need while the underlying problem of people selling surplus meds is not addressed.
It's a real problem and I honestly cannot give you a solution.

>>16722728
/thread

>>16732511
>Can you find examples of people taking the prescribed dose and overdosing?
If I could, could you prove definitely that the person who needed the medicine didn't have some cofactor or underlying condition they didn't reveal, perhaps because they didn't know, that interfered with the dosage and exonerates the doctor?

>dependency
and tolerance, they also lied about that because they didn't really have to prove anything since they handwaved away the addiction factor.

>Pain is a subjective phenomenon and sometimes doctors are duped.
Most of the time the doctors are just helping to dupe because its significantly easier and more profitable to just sell the drugs to the drug seekers, plenty of doctors lost their licenses as a result, but mostly because a few doctors are much easier to scapegoat than a big pharma company since corporate persons can't be held accountable like biological persons can be.

>>16730909
If an opioid addiction crisis that's caused exclusively due to overprescription isnt malpractice, I dont want to learn what is

>>16730890
Nta
If you watch or watched that "show" I pity you, let alone anyone you interact with.
I barely had the stomach to give you this (you), I can see your phenotype clearly in my mind's eye

DOCTORS SEETHING!

Nisha Patel MD is furious that patients want more than modern pharmaceutical 'disease management' and that a few of her colleagues are actually putting in the effort to provide it!

>>16722728

don't blame them too much ,people are getting back into weird shit to heal themselves especially women.
like >>16723058