Thread 16821465

National Review is on the warpath against IVF and want to see it banned because they equate it with abortion; specifically they say it results in the destruction of life. they are saying embryos in a petri dish are people.

i think this is a fundamentally mistaken pov. the reason abortion is evil is because an embryo in a womb will usually grow into a person without much effort from anyone else. abortion is ending a life that has a real shot at continuing.

IVF embryos have zero chance at life unless they are implanted in a womb. they will do nothing and die unless they are frozen or used. it really is an insignificant clump of cells, it has no personhood because agentic action is required to make them viable. no one with a rudimentary understanding of biology believes an embryo has awareness or anything, its about as far away from a person as you can get while still being human DNA.

am i crazy or does this distinction make sense? i am trying to steelman their argument but i just dont see how genetic material per se is a human being. thats why i wont mention the pros of IVF or their dumb arguments for more autism babies.

>>16821465 (OP)
Correct.

>>16821465 (OP)
The debate is solely between the completely ignorant and those who are competent. Do not bother even involving yourself, you will only become frustrated.

>>16821465 (OP)
Newborns without souls result in stillbirths.
When the Well of Souls runs dry stillbirths will skyrocket like you wouldn't believe.
When the soul leaves the body the person doesn't wake up or becomes a vegetable.
The body is merely a vessel for the soul and designer babies + ivf don't change that.

>>16821465 (OP)
The only non retarded way to be against abortion is by picking whatever structure in the brain you think is most important for consciousness and then setting your moral cutoff to whenever that thing appears/becomes active. If brain death is the end of whatever we value about human life, then brain genesis should be the start.
Embryos have no semblance of complex brain activity, so who gives a shit what people do with them.

>>16821465 (OP)
"Personhood" is completely imaginary and conventional. The people who experiment on embryos will eventually strip you of your "personhood" and say it's ok to do whatever to you because you're not a real person.

>>16821553
Being unable to perceive the many layers of degeneracy involved in petri dish fetus experiments means you're subhuman.

>>16821597
it's preferable to more actual subhumans like the many genetic abominations we have today

>>16821598
>the subhumans we have today are preferable to the subhumans we have today

>>16821600
more like the eugenicists of today are preferable to the downies/autism/kleinfelters/harlequin baby etc. of tomorrow
no reason we shouldn't start on the path of genetic perfection now that we have the tools, the human race is destined for greater things.

>>16821633
The strongest aspect of your argument is that you are a downie and reading your posts does make me wish for eugenics. Your mistake, however, is it assuming this requires insane "scientific" degeneracy when sterilizing your mother would have sufficed.

>>16821465 (OP)
IVF should be banned for being dysgenic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHZGsiZtjDY

>>16821637
I like the way you sort always regurgitates a diagnosis that amounts to showing an infinite cycle of failure embedded in the very structure of """civilization""", then tries to blame the products of """civilization""" for the failure of """civilization""".

>>16821637
>pic
this i just as more complicated version of hard times breed hard men etc.
peak pseud.

It's an instance of a trolley problem.
A man is tied to the tracks and has zero chance at life unless you pull the lever.

It's okay, there are no "people" anyway

>>16821692
It's not remotely comparable, but nice try.

>>16821465 (OP)
Who would make money from IVF being banned?

>>16821465 (OP)
>i just dont see how genetic material per se is a human being
Depends on what ethnic group the genes come from.

>>16821465 (OP)
>it results in the destruction of life
so does washing your hands
didn't you know you are killing billions of innocent bacteria?

>>16821692
>implying that's a bad thing