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7/23/2025, 10:06:39 PM
>>149522379
>When the answer lies it in the middle where a lot of stuff happened.
This is accurate. People seem to hate nuanced takes on things, especially on 4chan. And no, of course middle doesn't mean "exactly in the middle," in case someone wants to call it golden mean fallacy.
>>149522449
Exactly.
>When the answer lies it in the middle where a lot of stuff happened.
This is accurate. People seem to hate nuanced takes on things, especially on 4chan. And no, of course middle doesn't mean "exactly in the middle," in case someone wants to call it golden mean fallacy.
>>149522449
Exactly.
7/18/2025, 2:53:35 AM
>>149434819
I wouldn't call him a crook, but sometimes a glory hog. The reality is complex. He always praised Ditko and Kirby, and when speaking more in-depth about the comics he was clear they were collaborative efforts and acknowledged that Ditko and Kirby contributed a huge amount to them. But he was happy to let people call him "creator of" for all of these rather than making them say "co-creator" and sometimes exaggerated his specific contributions. He also believed having the initial spark for an idea and making the initial push for it made him "creator" even when others fleshed it out a ton. As Ditko called it, he sometimes engaged in "creative crediting" (Ditko: Illustrator), giving the impression that he contributed more than he did. But nothing outright fraudulent or criminal.
He could've done more for Ditko and Kirby in terms of crediting and money, but he wasn't nearly as bad as people treat him. You've got to understand the Marvel Method too, and why it naturally leads to contribution disputes. Basically, Stan would give a plot (or a brief description, or nothing at all), then the artist would plot things out more and draw the whole comic, putting notes in the margins (or script panels in Ditko's case). The notes sometimes even included dialogue, varying from simple ("Thor says stop") but sometimes more complete. Stan Lee would then go through, writing the final dialogue and captions. He was also the editor and officially the art director, so he would sometimes make them redraw pages and stuff. Basically like board driven animation, but for comics.
Although even with the dialogue, Stan sometimes got help from ghost writers and his assistants. More so later on I believe. Which makes sense when considering how many books he was working on simultaneously. Kirby and Ditko contributed more on the creative side, but Lee undeniably contributed a ton to the voice of the comics. The Thing wouldn't be the same without "It's clobberin' time!"
I wouldn't call him a crook, but sometimes a glory hog. The reality is complex. He always praised Ditko and Kirby, and when speaking more in-depth about the comics he was clear they were collaborative efforts and acknowledged that Ditko and Kirby contributed a huge amount to them. But he was happy to let people call him "creator of" for all of these rather than making them say "co-creator" and sometimes exaggerated his specific contributions. He also believed having the initial spark for an idea and making the initial push for it made him "creator" even when others fleshed it out a ton. As Ditko called it, he sometimes engaged in "creative crediting" (Ditko: Illustrator), giving the impression that he contributed more than he did. But nothing outright fraudulent or criminal.
He could've done more for Ditko and Kirby in terms of crediting and money, but he wasn't nearly as bad as people treat him. You've got to understand the Marvel Method too, and why it naturally leads to contribution disputes. Basically, Stan would give a plot (or a brief description, or nothing at all), then the artist would plot things out more and draw the whole comic, putting notes in the margins (or script panels in Ditko's case). The notes sometimes even included dialogue, varying from simple ("Thor says stop") but sometimes more complete. Stan Lee would then go through, writing the final dialogue and captions. He was also the editor and officially the art director, so he would sometimes make them redraw pages and stuff. Basically like board driven animation, but for comics.
Although even with the dialogue, Stan sometimes got help from ghost writers and his assistants. More so later on I believe. Which makes sense when considering how many books he was working on simultaneously. Kirby and Ditko contributed more on the creative side, but Lee undeniably contributed a ton to the voice of the comics. The Thing wouldn't be the same without "It's clobberin' time!"
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