>>281954872
>>281954966
>Stocking is a gothic lolita, not part of the goth subculture
That, and whether or not Joy Division is goth depends on who you ask (New Order isn't goth as far as I know). Some people say they're goth rock, others say they're not (even if they're arguably proto-goth). Joy Division themselves disliked being labeled as "gothic," but so did a lot of unambiguously goth rock bands like The Cure and Bauhaus. That being said, from what I know Joy Division/New Order are generally liked by "actual" goths, but that's a whole topic better suited for /mu/