Thread 95627312

Chaos is evil and Law is good.
And you know it.

>>95627312 (OP)
No, I think not.

>>95627312 (OP)
I dunno, man, would, say, Cromwell be good? Is Robin Hood evil?

>>95627312 (OP)
Chaos is cunts. Law is cunts. You're a cunt. So'm I.
Get it?

>>95627340
robin hood is lawful good

>>95627312 (OP)
Chaos is good, because humanity is good. In most stories humans are always rebelling against things like tyrants, gods, and machines, all ordered entities.

>>95627437
Of course those tyrants, gods, and machines often have human followers or are humans themselves.

>>95627312 (OP)
Chaos, law, good, and evil are all irrelevant when you take control of the scale itself

>>95627377
>lawful

>>95627312 (OP)
>convince me you're lawful evil in three seconds or less

>>95627340
>I dunno, man, would, say, Cromwell be good?
Thomas or Oliver?

>>95627312 (OP)
Law is tyranny
Chaos is freedom

>>95627312 (OP)
Counterpoint: Chaos is good and Law is evil.
This is a fact.

Chaos is evil.
Law is also evil.

Only good is good.

>>95627312 (OP)
How do you sleep at night when you glow like that?

Paizo already did the "All Lawful is Evil" thing, do you really think doing the inverse is going to somehow work better

>>95627312 (OP)
Depends on the setting.

>>95627312 (OP)
>Posting classic 3 point alignment discussion on an illiterate board

These people still think DnD is Tolkien Fantasy.

>>95627312 (OP)
>Trying to codify intangible forces with petty mortal notions of good and evil
>Laughs in cosmic indifference

>>95627312 (OP)
What if it's against the rules to not harm someone else at least once a day?

>>95627312 (OP)
You stupid niggers always dumb down Moorcock's work. Law is order and Chaos is freedom and the whole purpose of his work was strive for a balance between the two.

Not in my setting. We are playing into the future of the dark reign of Aku, the Shapeshifting Master of Darkness, where EVIL IS LAW!

>>95627312 (OP)
You are correct.

>>95627312 (OP)
chaos can be good and laws can be evil, so no

>>95627547
Anyone can claim to be lawful. One of the most common ways the forces of chaos get one over on the unsuspecting is to masquerade as upholders and arbiters of the law.

When it's all Chaos, it becomes Law.

>>95627460
he actually is lawful.
Holds his band to a high standard, organizes them, and only robs from the corrupt.

>>95627449
There are gods of chaos, and despots often throw the lawful system into disarray, so it's a moot point.

>>95627312 (OP)
nigga u hilarious

>>95627325
Generic fantasy topics count as /tg/.
/tg/ is not just for traditional games.

>>95630293
>board is traditional games
>na its fine
Its not. Get back to /b. Its random or esoteric, or fantasy. Go discuss it in a proper board. But you wont because b is shitpile and other ones are semi-hybernating. Still not proper in here and it were you would have at least try to make it fitting by saying something "in my setting...". But you did not, so the door is over there.

Chaos and Order as alignments come from Michael Moorecock's eternal champion anthology and neither pure order nor pure chaos are safe for mortals to live under, the entire purpose of the Champion is to show up and maintain balance between the two forces when one side is about to become too dominant.

>>95627487
>>95627518
>>95627523
Law is a concept made by humans so that they wouldn't be victims of chaos.
Therefore, although law can be used for evil, its original purpose was ultimately good.

>>95627340
Cromwell opposed the natural god given order of royalty, of course he is evil.

>>95627312 (OP)
>t.

>>95630341
>just be neutral

>>95627325
1. Warhammer RPG uses Lawful–Good–Neutral–Evil–Chaotic alignment axis.
2. Drink bleach insincere retard.

>>95630293
>>95630531
This is a philosophy topic. OP mentions no games in his post. Therefore question is valid.

>>95627312 (OP)
based

>>95627312 (OP)
Aztecs were lawful.
Think about it.

>>95630584
>This is a philosophy topic.
No philosophy says that law is bad and chaos is good. That's a D&D invention.

>>95630605
all civilizations are lawful.

>>95630607
Wrong.

>>95630628
>Wrong.
I'm right.

>>95630633
No. Read.

>>95630667
No, I'm right

>>95629208
Best post ITT.

>>95630710
This place has rotted your brain. Please read a book.

Chaos is the only reason games are fun, lawful world does not produce monster infested ruins and dungeons.

>>95630607
>No philosophy says that law is bad and chaos is good.
Anarchism, you uneducated illiterate swine.

>>95630835
nta, but even anarchism isn't really about being against laws. They just favor decentralized communal living instead of highly-centralized bureaucratic states. Lawfulness can just be directly traced to the people rather than to some far-off politician.

Basically, anarchists are LARPers.

>>95630383
Nah, law is control.

>>95627312 (OP)
Besides Moorcock, Saga of Recluce, and Warhammer, what are some settings with a major focus on Law vs Chaos, especially if they make it clear that Chaos isn't necessarily "evil" and Law isn't necessarily "good"? Because a lot of settings, especially Warhammer, tend to make Chaos the "evil" party, though especially in 40k the Law side of things in Warhammer is often pretty nasty as well.

>>95631226
Star Wars

>>95630887
Yes, and not being able to control anything is bad, since it makes you vulnerable.

>>95627312 (OP)
How might I view bad laws as chaotic?

>>95631226
Fallen London

>>95632534
how is the Discordance not evil lol

>>95627460
Law and The Law are often not the same thing. Service to one may require a breach of the other.

>>95632563
The Discordance is just freedom in all its glory and all its horror. Yes, it can end in No Thing Shall Be if you are an absolute cunt. But where the Red Science is reforging the chain and Rubbery Science is bending and stretching the chain, the Discordance is the world without chains.

>>95627453
>become a sword
>get isekaied
>refuse to elaborate
What did he mean by this?

>>95627312 (OP)
chaos is chaos and law is law
evil is evil and good is good
you fucking retard

>>95627487
Chaos is anarchy.
Law is stability.

>>95627312 (OP)
Problem is in most games lawful vs chaotic is pointless (as in it is literally never referenced) and good vs evil trivializes morality.

>>95632861
And stability is death. (Verification not required.)

>>95627312 (OP)
All evil is chaotic by definition yes, It is important to remember that not all good circumscribes to particular laws.

>>95632755
>spoiler
Reminder that in the Tower destiny, the universe is already stated to be gone before you use that sentence. Everything is already done for- you are just closing the curtains.

>>95631312
>Star Wars
Really?

>>95632534
Not really familiar with that.

>>95632755
>>95633662
Okay, I really want to know more about the setting now.

>>95635946
The city of London was sold to alien space bats by Queen Victoria in exchange for the ressurrection of her historical-cholera-victim husband, and dragged underground to the Neath- a recess of the Earth where the light of the cosmic tyrants- the stars themselves- cannot reach. The Discordance is the secret power that opposes these stars' light- and is wielded by a movement known as Liberation of Night, which plans to strike down the stars (also known as Judgements) and abolish the laws of physics themselves as unfair and unjust and decreed to hold up these same stars.

>>95632167
Nah, if everything is controlled, you can't do anything.

>>95627462
No.

Alignment is for fucking retards with too much free time.

>>95627312 (OP)
Hey, what are some cool angles for Law magic and Chaos magic? For the latter it seems like it always mutates the user, or at least the people it’s being used ON, often has a possibility of failing and producing a random result, and in Warhammer 40k it’s basically psychic powers from a realm of evil gods, but surely there are other approaches. I’ve been skimming the Wikipedia page for the Saga of Recluce books that were mentioned upthread, which has Order mages who can create things like special iron imbued with the power of Order as one example, but what’s your take? I think that Law magic might have a discipline focused on machinery, for instance. After all, a machine can only do what it’s told to do.

>>95627377
>an outlaw
>lawful
Does it hurt being as stupid as you are?

>>95643131
It's the usual
>"umm, this lawless barbarian brigand actually follows strict code of ethics! Totally lawful!"
>"What that code is? Eeh, what I can take is mine!"

>>95627377
This.

>>95627312 (OP)
Law and Chaos is more nebulous and vague than Good and Evil; but according to D&D and most settings, Law and Chaos represents cosmic forces beyond humanity.

The alignment system makes perfect sense when you remove Chaotic Good. Chaotic Good works better as CN, NG, or funny enough just NE. If CG is going with the steal from the rich business, then it should be balanced out with an ascetic lifestyle. "The Rebels™" is such a cancerous mindset. It is how we got the Force Awakens where the good guys are always the underdogs.

Absolute order and absolute chaos are indistinguishable from one another.

The only certainties of order and disorder is that each is defined by the existance of the other. They are both a whole and alone they are simple annihilating noise.

>>95627325
I swear, you people are in a fucking suicide cult or something.
What kind of thread SHOULDN'T be deleted?
Goddamn.

>>95627377
>>95645039
>robin hood is lawful good
While arguably true in some earlier tellings, calling any of the common depictions of Robin Hood "lawful good" is patently retarded, and betrays a profound incomprehension regarding alignment.

Fucking retards.

>>95645869
Kill yourself.

>>95627312 (OP)
With no chaos the universe would be stuck in crystalline stasis and no life could exist

>>95645094
That's a neat trick. If he could control it he could cheat at gambling, lol.

>>95630341
This. For you new weeb kids who don't read the classics, think Shin Megami Tensei. Both Law and Chaos are terrible for your average human. Human concepts of rules and freedom are nothing like the hellscapes of law and chaos.

>>95645890
>While arguably true in some earlier tellings, calling any of the common depictions of Robin Hood "lawful good" is patently retarded, and betrays a profound incomprehension regarding alignment.
I'm so fucking sick and tired of this example. The guy was fight for the rightful monarch and against taxes. Calling him CG just because society is ruled by evil people is a stupid way to define Law and Chaos. CG is inherently a contradiction. No principles and being good. CG is supposed to be an unorthodox kind of good but people who think about themselves this way are very common.

>>95631226
Zelazny's Amber. Fun fact, Moorcock and Zelazny are a big part of why the original D&D alignment system was only composed of Law and Chaos.

>>95647060
OH FUCK HE'S ABOUT TO CREATE WHITE PEOPLE

>>95647401
>Both Law and Chaos are terrible for your average human. Human concepts of rules and freedom are nothing like the hellscapes of law and chaos.
Okay, I’d like to hear more about this please.

>>95647869
>the original D&D alignment system was only composed of Law and Chaos.
It was? Can you say more about Amber please?

>>95642386
>I think that Law magic might have a discipline focused on machinery
Law has often been associated with technology in fantasy by Moorcock's standard, and also stasis and permanence.
I would suggest something related to "controlling" the "laws" of the world, like Warding magic, to preserve.
A use of permanence can result in more robustness, due to the power of the Law making it resistant to change (damage).
I also like to associate psychic/psionic capabilities to the Law. If I'm not wrong, in older D&D editions psychic characters risked calling involuntarily various entities: a trained psychic can "control" those powers, no longer being a victim to its use and potentiality.

>>95647869
>Zelazny's Amber. Fun fact, Moorcock and Zelazny are a big part of why the original D&D alignment system was only composed of Law and Chaos.
>>95649651
>It was? Can you say more about Amber please?
Chainmail used just used Law & Chaos to just mean Romans & Barbarians because it is a war game. It carried over to D&D then E2 had the Good and Evil axis which became more important because it became about small group of people.

>>95627339
Certified peckish behavior.

>>95627377
this

>>95630835
You're a midwit. At no point does anarchism say that chaos is good. It only says that government is bad and we don't need it to have a society with laws.

>>95630756
the classic "argument" when a piece of shit lefty loses and doesn't know what to say.

>>95645062
>Absolute order and absolute chaos are indistinguishable from one another.
Maybe if you're medically retarded.

>>95649651
Amber is... hard to explain. As fantasy goes it falls into the category of very strange. The story starts out on Earth and reads like a noir.

>>95627312 (OP)
Nah, they both have their place though I wouldn't make them as simple as good and evil. Hell in my system I have it 5 by 5 rather then 3 by 3. Adding moral and vile and social and rebel into the mix. As many often people who pick chaotic and aren't fucking playing a knock off Joker/Jinx/Punisher character would still count as chaotic over normal or lawful. Same with Evil and good. They might not be a pure of heart but at the same time they're better then most same with the guy willing to screw over most people but still has a bit of good in him outside.

>>95649651
>Okay, I’d like to hear more about this please.
Total Chaos is exactly what it sounds like, it is an utter lack of certainty, consequence, and meaning. Entire universes arise from a roiling mass and are then snuffed out at random, time flowing both backwards and forwards in a never-ending moment.
Law is stagnation in every sense. There is no imagination, no choice, no life or growth. Perfect Law crystalizes the entire universe in place forever, a cold tomb from which nothing can ever be born again.
These primal forces are so far out of scale with human attitudes that it's not really remotely the same thing

>>95630762
>Evil is the only reason games are fun, good world does not produce monster infested ruins and dungeons.
I really don't get what point you are trying to make.

>>95627312 (OP)
We’re probably all familiar with the Chaos gods of Warhammer Fantasy and 40k fame, but I always felt that the things they were gods ‘of’ were less inherently chaotic and more chaotic representations of those concepts. So I was wondering, what deific domains would you assign to each side of the Law/Chaos split? I was thinking that War would be divided between the two sides, a Law-aligned War god being like Athena, while a Chaos War god would be like Ares or Khorne, for example. I was also thinking that Earth and Ice might be Law and Fire Chaos. Do you agree or would you do it differently?

>>95630383
Authoritarianism is the ultimate evil, and must me fought at every turn so that evil might not triumph and freedom might reign.

>>95632861
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Sic Semper Tyrannis faggots.

>ITT people trying to tie the physical properties of the Universe to human value systems
That is the same as saying that ice magic is Law aligned & fire magic is Chaos aligned.

>>95627339
Based and Tackety-pilled.

>>95627312 (OP)
Allignment fags are probably some of the most clearcut example of midwits. You are just bright enough for the concept and can make some original thoughts, but the broader point that the entire allignment system is just bollacks game mechanic to abstract reality is out of reach to you. Morality is complex and full of distinct shades and sometimes contradictory relations. Allignments are a set of 9 generalizing concepts that allow you to easily cook up a character for the campaign. The truest retard is someone who takes this abstraction and tries to hammer real reality down to fit this idiotic abstraction.

>>95627312 (OP)
>chaos is evil
yes
>law is good
no

>>95627312 (OP)
>freedom is evil
Kill yourself, statist.

>>95627312 (OP)
I disagree

>>95662594
>I WANT FREEDOM
>FREEDOM TO DO EVIL

>>95662594
How much do you weigh, boogaloo boy?

>>95630341
Law and Chaos in D&D were originally based on "Three Hearts & Three Lions", where Law was the rightful moral order under which human civilization could flourish, while Chaos was the rejection of all moral rules. Or basically good vs evil. For example in OD&D chaos aligned clerics were called "evil high priests" and all of the evil races were on the side of chaos, there was no hint that you could be good and chaotic. It only turned into Moorecock when they added the Good/Evil axis which implicitly made Law not good and Chaos not evil.

>>95627312 (OP)
Neither Chaos or Law are implicitly good or evil. Too much of either destroys the balance necessary between the pair to facilitate Existence as a whole in any setting.

This is why in Moorcock's Multiverse (the source of your pic) you find the forces of Chaos AND Law on both ends of "good and evil" depending upon the context of the situation and the events of whatever timeline you happen to be in at the moment.

>>95658567
>Fire Chaos
Bitch, I name you, and bitch once more. Fire is how man TAMED chaos. It was fire that gave us light in the darkness, warmth in the caves, and the ability to shape metal to our will. With fire's light did we frighten off those beasts that would prey on us, and with its heat did we cook those that we mastered.

It was fire that brought us order, for it was in fire that we forged it. It is the hearth that nurtures us and the forge that strengthens us. What's more, fire allowed itself to be tamed. It allowed us to box it up so tidily in our ovens, our engines, our power plants, so that it might continue to help us build our order without having to ever confront it ourselves. And now you are so coddled by the world it has built that you take even a single glimpse of the flame as a sign of chaos?

Bitch.

>>95627460
>>95643131
>>95643157
He was a resistant fighter who remained loyal to the rightful king of England and opposed the tyrannical John.
He was lawful, the sheriff of Nottingham was chaotic/neutral.

>>95658567
War is by nature chaotic, it destroys families, cities, nations, uproots old orders and creates new ones, fells the mighty and gives way for generals or ambitious upstarts to take their places, Mars planted his seeds in spring, went to war in summer, returned to reap what he had sown in autumn and rested on his harvest in winter only to repeat the cycle when night gives way for the sun.
There is nothing lawful about war, it is the mortal incarnation of change.

>>95663190
Correct, otherwise it's not freedom. If you don't have the freedom to do evil, then you don't have freedom.

>>95664383
190, hbu? And more importantly, how much do you bench?

>>95665433
>He was a resistant fighter who remained loyal to the rightful king of England and opposed the tyrannical John.
Only in the sixteenth century on, the earliest was a Yeoman who was sticking it to the Rich and Powerful. Chaotic as it gets.

>>95627312 (OP)
aligments are stupid.

>>95663190
And freedom to do good, without being forced to. Because if you're forced to do good, you aren't doing good, you're an evil person pretending to be good.

>>95664920
Well, I was thinking of how flame releases energy and transforms what it burns into something else when I associated it with Chaos, sorry. What domains would you suggest for each side then?

>>95665518
Okay, what other domains would you suggest for either Law or Chaos then?

>>95664920
>you take even a single glimpse of the flame as a sign of chaos?
Not a sign. It's Chaos itself. Mindless consumption. Entropy, leaving ashes in it's wake and little but.
We've maneuvered ourselves into benefiting from its existence, standing far enough away that its heat fails to burn us, not looking long enough so the light doesn't blind us, feeding it with enough care to keep it from feeding on us. We impose Order on it. But that doesn't make it Orderly, left unchecked it's proper nature of consumption and devastation makes itself known. Sometimes, other time maybe it happens to rain and that puts it out. Or the fire breaks out where there's already little to burn. Such is the unreliable nature of Chaos.

>>95666383
Nature?
Lawful side is upholding the ecosystem while the chaotic side is evolution.

>>95666942
Yeah, that's basically the logic I was thinking of. If you have any more suggestions for domains for either side of things I'd be happy to hear them!

>>95669177
I hadn't considered that angle, thanks. If you think of any other ideas for domains, split or otherwise, please say so.

>>95664920
this reminds me of the Thief series where the conflict of Law and Chaos is between the Builder and the Trickster, with the Builder casting the Trickster out and teaching humanity how to make and build. While the Keepers (a sect of stealthy monks and librarians) try to keep the balance, I would say it's kind of clear the Builder is better than the Trickster. We never see a direct manifestation of the Builder. It's only in Thief 2: The Metal Age where Father Karras claims to be acting on the Builder's behalf but is clearly not.
Meanwhile the Trickster directly fucks over Garett and tries to initiate his dark project so all humanity will essentially have to grovel before him to survive the chaotic wilderness he will turn the world into.
It seems a bit unbalanced but I don't really mind because I find the conflict interesting and Thief has really good atmosphere.

>>95664920
Fire was never tamed by man. Man chains it and feeds it just enough so it'll not go out of control, but one wrong move and it takes your house, hell, fires have taken out whole cities. A cigarette butt thrown the wrong way can destroy a whole forest, a leaking gas pipe plus a match means an exploded house whose owners are scattered in chunks. Fire is not a symbol of order- it's a symbol of how tenuous order is, of how little it take before chaos rises once more.

>>95671648
Very well said, I would love to hear your domain suggestions for both Law and Chaos please.

>>95669706
Never heard of the Thief series, I'll have to check that out. Do you have any more ideas on Law domains vs Chaos domains, BTW?

>>95652676
>Good and Evil axis predates Law and Chaos axis in AD&D
Tell me you're a fucking casual without telling me that you're fucking casual.

>>95673985
Reading comprehension.

>>95649651
>Can you say more about Amber please?
Nta, but in the Amber book series there's two ends to the spectrum that is reality. Primeval Chaos, and the Pattern that was born from it. Surrounding the expanse of Chaos is the void. Amber was a big influence on D&D, but I doubt on it's alignment system. Just about every character pings somewhere on the lower right hand corner of the alignment chart, be they champions of Chaos or the Pattern.

>>95627312 (OP)
We’re all familiar with the Chaos symbol of eight arrows pointing out in different directions, and there’s also the Law symbol of a single arrow, but besides minor variations on those two, what other symbols might work for either side? I was thinking a spiral for Chaos and a plain circle for Law.

>>95677320
I'd say a triangle pointing upwards for Order, it's a shape commonly symbolizing stability and hierarchy

>>95677536
Neat, what about Chaos then?

>>95627312 (OP)
Law and Chaos are spooks.

>>95679538
idk something with spikes
but it feels odd to expect chaos to come up with a unified symbol for itself. Better to have it be a symbol used by other forces to describe chaos. In that way it'd be something like a warning sign meant to look hazardous

>>95666942
I'm too tired to get into things but fire follows very particular rules, and it's understanding these rules that allowed us to harness it. If you want something that embodies chaos, I'd suggest weather - shit's so fucky that the father of meteorology was laughed out of the building when he first proposed that weather could be predicted a day in advance. It was considered witchcraft to claim to be capable of it.

>>95666942
Nothing about physics is chaotic, retard.

>>95627312 (OP)
Good Good, Neutral Good, Evil Good
Good Neutral, Neutral, Evil Neutral
Good Evil, Neutral Evil, Evil Evil

Evil has stopped looking like a real word to me.

>>95677320
>>95677536
>>95679538
>>95680626
I just want to drive-by schizopost on this.
The 8 vs. 1 arrow symbolism has a really nice memetic resonance with the Heisenberg uncertainty of all things, as well as showing the opposing forces as somehow similar (arrows) without one just being a "ruined" version of the other.
I don't think any alternatives will have enough "schizophrenic weight", for lack of a better term, to improve on what's already there.

>>95627312 (OP)
This is abrahamic redditisms, and a reduction of what is actually three, rather than two.
Chaos is creation and entropy. Law is order. They exist in a perpetual natural cycle that struggle against each other, but none would be desirable to have permanent total dominion over the other. Cyclical death and renewal is part of natural law.
Moralfags and torahniggers begone.

>>95681706
Chaos = bad
Law = good
It really is that simple.

>>95681712
>pretending unjust laws don't exist

>>95681715
IF it is a law, THEN it is just. Simple as.

>>95681715
Unjust laws are chaos.

>>95681722
>slave caste opinions
discarded
>>95681725
Absurd.

>>95627312 (OP)
Earnestly, IRL if dualism was real I would consider Chaos as Evil and Law as variable (Neutral?)
In reality people suffer during "Chaotic" times, when weather is unpredictable, societal systems are upturned, markets crashing, ecosystems collapsing, etc.
People suffer during Lawful times too, like when an oppressive or stifling government keeps people locked into a harmful way of life. But people basically only prosper during other Lawful times, when people have clear, fair rules under which they can work towards things and work with each other.
The only time Chaos is good is when it's a brief period ending an unjust Lawful system, that is necessary for a new Lawful yet just system to take its place.

>>95666241
>if you're forced to do good, you aren't doing good, you're an evil person pretending to be good.
Not really.
If you're forced to do something good (for who?) against your will, you're still doing good, you're just not a good person for doing so because you had to be forced.

>>95681727
Cope, evil shitter.

>>95681722
>>95681725
why even use the words law and chaos anymore if you're just gonna mentally substitute them for other words

>>95682032
Synonyms exist.

Chaos provides for creation, growth, adaptation, and the general concept of "Gaia" and/or the divine feminine THOUGH.
>>95681753
makes a lucid argument otherwise, but I would rejoinder that "successful" systems in real life (That is to say, economic/legal systems that reduce human suffering and advance their own society) generally allow a significant amount of wiggle room. Fully planned economies have consistently failed, creating starvation and scarcity, while unfettered "ancap" economies have created much human suffering and pollution. (See 1880s robber barons pre antitrust act). Legal entities who succeed generally have recognized their own fallibility, and their own tendency to stifle the emergence of good ideas, and have therefore abdicated large chunks of control while still maintaining an appropriate amount of order.
There's also the fact that fundamentally, perfect Chaos and perfect Law are identical. I.e. the literal physical distribution of energy tends towards "entropy", a state where that energy is distributed perfectly evenly and therefore nothing moves. This is the Heat Death Of The Universe, where energy, which can neither be created not destroyed, has been inevitably smeared into a perfectly level serving across all reality, and absolutely nothing ever happens ever again. That is, the end state of Anarchy is the end state of Stultification and vice versa. This applies physically, metaphysically, and practically.

>>95682669
>Chaos provides for creation, growth, adaptation, and the general concept of "Gaia" and/or the divine feminine THOUGH.
No it doesn't. Those are just excuses evil people use.
>See, I'm necessary because I keep making you ADAPT to my stealing and murdering! You just can't do anything without me shitting up the place.

>>95682669
based schizo

>>95681912
>>95682699
>cringe
This is the human brain on hebraic moralfagging.
>>95682669
>based
This is the human brain without it.

>>95682669
>muh made up heat death of the universe sci-fi fairy tale
Shut up.

>>95647683
Agreed, additionally the fact that the taxes are arbitrary and irregular on top of being put in effect by a usurper means that within this alignment system they should be considered chaotic. Giving people back property that has been illegally seized is lawful even if it is nominally government agents doing the unlawful seizure.

>>95627312 (OP)
spoken like a true chinaman

>>95677320
A subtle but important variation on the 8-pointed star you see sometimes but not enough is to have the points be of varying sizes, representing the mutable and shifting nature of chaos where having all 8 be equal length can imply a more uniform entropic force.

>>95686751
>A subtle but important variation on the 8-pointed star you see sometimes but not enough is to have the points be of varying sizes, representing the mutable and shifting nature of chaos where having all 8 be equal length can imply a more uniform entropic force.
That's a neat idea, thanks! Any other ways to make the symbol, or Law's, more distinct, besides curving the points?

>>95681554
>The 8 vs. 1 arrow symbolism has a really nice memetic resonance with the Heisenberg uncertainty of all things,
I hadn't even considered that, can you please elaborate a bit more.

>>95680626
>In that way it'd be something like a warning sign meant to look hazardous
Interesting idea. So you have any thoughts on Law vs Chaos aesthetics in general, especially moving away from giving Chaos stuff that delves too much into 'body horror'? Like, I was thinking that Law might by angular and Chaos have more curves, but but besides crystalline or mechanical aesthetics what might work for Law, and I already mentioned what I want to avoid for Chaos.

>>95686828
>momentum is a directed quantity
>after a certain threshold, the more exact something's position is, the less exact its momentum is and vice versa
>this is not just a constraint of measurement
The 8 arrows emerge from a single point (the dot or circle), corresponding to a precisely defined position, but indefinite momentum. The 1 arrow (no circle/dot) is the opposite extreme - a precise momentum with indefinite position.

>>95627377
He's LITERALLY the textbook example of CG. People take this "just follow your own rules, that's Lawful" bullshit way too far. That means the only way to be Chaotic is lulsorandumb.

>>95689003
>That means the only way to be Chaotic is lulsorandumb.
that's exactly how it works

>>95689174
ancient argument but if lulsorandumb is "the only way" wouldn't adding some structure be a little...Chaotic?

>>95689174
if the only tenet you follow is being randumb doesn't that make you a lawful follower of randomness?

>>95627312 (OP)
Stupid statement. It's all semantics as it depends on how you define law and chaos.

If we push the definitions of law and chaos to extremes, then both are wholly evil because both are equally incompatible with life, freedom and happiness.

If we accept more reasonable definitions of law and chaos, then both have some good in them, making them both required together. Law can be seen as necessary to protect the weak, chaos can be seen as necessary for life to express itself or even exist. It naturally follows that where chaos is in excess, law is good, and where law is in excess, chaos is good.

Lastly, if we want to remove all such relative circumstances from the definitions of law and chaos and reduce them to straight up abstract philosophical concept, we end up with the most interesting definitions (though also the hardest ones to clearly express), where both could be compatible with either good or evil, without necessarily including either of them, but while certainly excluding each other. That's the classical alignment system's take.

Then of course, if you want to be hypocritical, you can simply use "chaos" as a name for evil and "law" as a name for good. That's the dumbest possible stance, but it's not unheard of.

>>95627312 (OP)
No, dont be silly. Chaos is freedom, Law is order. Freedom to do good or bad, order for the good or bad of the people.

>>95677320
>>95677536
the cube of metatron I think serve in stark contrast to the star of choas.
where the choas points outward seeking to spread.
the cube of metatron looks like a a star pointing inwards seeking to contain

>>95692883
Never heard of this before, thanks for the idea!

BTW, do you have any more thoughts on Law vs Chaos aesthetics in general beyond just symbols, especially moving away from giving Chaos stuff that delves too much into 'body horror'? Like, one concept I was considering would be that Law might be angular and Chaos have more curves (with your suggestion actually working into that given how all the circles are split up), but besides crystalline or mechanical aesthetics what might work for Law, and I already mentioned what I want to avoid for Chaos?

>>95690668
nope

again, chaos uses bad laws to weaken law

>>95631226
In R.E.H.'s Conan, the civilized worlds of law and cities of man are stagnant, weak and corrupt. Barbarians, outsiders like Conan are self reliant, pure of corruption and free. They live their own way, earn their way through their strength, wits and their skill with a sword not owing anyone anything.

>>95693348
Choas theory has stuff to do with complexity.
Choas is just an ordered system with a very very deep list of stipulations. Or it is several ordered systems interacting with each other.
Choas appears incomprehensable
order does not
the whole body horror is just lovecraftian.
choas isn't the beast or whatever. choas is your visceral reaction to the beast. anxiety, adrenalin rush, over stimulation, manic.
cosmic backround radiation. tv static.
order is simple and with purpose. utilitarian.

>>95693348
Something cool to thing about for Chaos might be fractals and non-repeating patterns. Where you start with a seed and it spreads into infinity, sometimes seeming like it might repeat but actually never quite coming to rest in the same spot as before, and never quite ending either.

>>95677320
>>95692883
>>95693348
The Chaos Star represents the many possibilities versus the single path of the Law.

Then it occurs to me that the Koru of Maori tradition can be alternated with the Chaos Star, as the Koru represents new beginnings and personal growth through a spiral that symbolizes an eternal cycle of constant change and spiritual expansion.

>>95693566
In Howard's Conan he says "Barbarism is the natural state of mankind," the borderer said, still staring somberly at the Cimmerian. "Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph." R.E. Howard's Conan cultures and civilizations arose, became decadent and corrupt, and then fell as they were conquered by another people, typically "the barbarians" from the fringes, who would themselves eventually grow complacent and corrupt. Law in R.E. Howard's conan wasn't good and chaos evil.

>>95694011
And making a similarity with the arrow of the law, the Toltecayotl of the Anahuac traditions of Mesoamerica comes to mind, which represents the balance of the four elemental directions, physical and metaphysical, and in its center an ascending spiral that symbolizes a "fifth direction" interpretable as the "flowering" to a higher state of consciousness (imagine that it is a concept similar to the awakening of enlightenment in Buddhism)

>>95694011
>>95694072

>>95627312 (OP)
What motifs and other design elements would you use for beings from each side? Law creatures could have a crystalline or mechanical design, sure, but what else would work? Not to mention what might work for Chaos besides tentacles and lots of random mutations? Also, WHY do we associate tentacles so closely with eldritch horrors? Things like colors, shapes, smells and tastes for each side are fine too if you can think of any good ideas. Much obliged!

>>95627312 (OP)
No I don't.

>>95701598
Where’s this from exactly, some D&D book?

>>95705391
tumblr

>>95701598
How does this do lawful evil though? Do you care about the rules or about your own individual well-being?

>>95627312 (OP)
You are correct. Law came before Morality.
Usus came first, then the Law, then Morality.
Usus ("usages, traditions") just means that by default, even without the framework of traditions, human beings do what they've seen their parents do in contexts which are mostly similar.
Law emerges from the framework of linguistic traditions based on the uses in place, usually in the form of "these are the commands of our ancestors/gods". Law is effectively entwined with Religion.
Morality declines from the cultural and sociological background an individual human is born with. "Evil" as a concept changed fundamentally (and in completely contradictory ways) at least 3 times. 200 years ago a big enough storm was evil. 1000 years ago the victim of anything bad enough was equally as likely to be found the evil "thing" in the equation, because divine retribution was just, and gods (even capital G) usually don't care too much about guilt by association, and are perfectly fine with throwing a volcano eruption or three the way of a kingdom who'se biggest sin is having a dick for a monarch.

>>95643131
>>95643157
Lawful doesn't refer to written law retards

>>95716469
Most of the time, it does. That is why lawful evil exists, tard.

>>95716483
Devils don't care about human laws.

>>95683090
redditor

>muh freedom
Thanks for confirming that chaos fags are Americans.

Lawful: Order, consistency, predictability
Chaotic: Randomness, inconsistency, unpredictability

Neither are inherently good or evil, nor do those refer to human made laws.

>>95627312 (OP)
Law/Chaos axis only make consistent sense for alignment when it is simply defined as if a character functions within or outside of the bounds of society. A dictator or conman merchant is lawful evil as their influence and operandi is directly tied to society. A raving mad serial killer or petty burglar is chaotic evil because he functions outside of the bounds of society. A mercenary or more organized mafia integrated with the community they function in are all nuetral evil because they both function within and outside of the usual expected roles of society.

>>95716572
>Neither are inherently good or evil
wrong

>>95711098
In general a "lawful evil" will be a hypocrite; he will apply rules to other but not to himself (when it benefits him).

>>95717114
Tips for convincing myself this is true?

>>95627365
Another masterpiece of writing, GRRM

Chaos doesn't exist, it's a made up category to describe things that are too much hassle to measure.

>>95627312 (OP)
Chaos is freedom, personal agency and self-determination.
Law is authoritarian, totalitarian oppression.

Your argument is childish, but more importantly invalid.

>>95720863
I wish AI wasn't so common, it robs me of any of the joy of seeing a strange thing and wondering what the author meant.
Now it's just "The author didn't mean anything, he was a machine, and the commissioner who made it also didn't mean anything by this, but thought it looked nice.
It also does this to any borderline pieces, and the effect kind of creeps into things that weren't even AI generated.

>>95720863
Neither of those are mutually exclusive.

>>95627312 (OP)
If that's so you have been breaking the law quite often since your birth, explain yourself evildoer.

>>95721553
>Neither of those are mutually exclusive.
NTA, but how does that work exactly exactly?

>>95725757
You can have a Totalitarian society which is entirely chaotic. Oppressive States do not equate to stable States. States which are chaotic do not necessarily provide much space for self-determination either or personal agency. In almost every case, moderns misuse or abuse the meaning of freedom and equate it with "power", "virtue", etc. Freedom, unqualified, is bound and limited by Laws, yes, but "personal agency" isn't necessarily the same way, you can do a lot in a society where you have the expectation of not getting shanked the second you step out of your house, but technically yes, having a law that states "you can't go around shanking people" does ultimately limit your freedom.
His argument is entirely adolescent. Freedom is very little without Power. Both are easier to obtain within a society which follows the rule of Law.

>>95733320
Thanks for clarifying. So based on that, how would you define Law versus Chaos in simple terms the way >95720863 tried but failed to do?

>>95725757
>>95733320
>Anarcho-Tyranny
>a system of government that fails to enforce or adjudicate protection to its citizens while simultaneously persecuting innocent conduct.

>>95737461
>get robbed, wife raped and murdered while you're at work
>call the police
>they laugh at you and hang up
>next day receive a ticket for unlicensed possession of a body and wasting government time
>the goons will be here to break your knees if you don't pay within 7 days
How long until London gets there do you think?

>>95627437
If humanity was only about Chaos, we would still be monke. And even they have a hierarchy

>>95738211
>Tyrants are always fond of bad men, because they love to be flattered, but no man who has the spirit of a freeman in him will demean himself by flattery; good men love others, but they do not flatter anybody. Moreover the bad are useful for bad purposes; ‘nail knocks out nail,’ as the proverb says.

>It is characteristic of a tyrant to dislike every one who has dignity or independence; he wants to be alone in his glory, but any dependent one who claims a like dignity or asserts his independence encroaches upon his prerogative, and is hated by him as an enemy to his power. Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the others enter into no rivalry with him.

>Such are the notes of the tyrant and the arts by which he preserves his power; there is no wickedness too great for him. All that we have said may be summed up under three heads, which answer to the three aims of the tyrant. These are, (1) the humiliation of his subjects; he knows that a mean-spirited man will not conspire against anybody: (2) the creation of mistrust among them; for a tyrant is not overthrown until men begin to have confidence in one another; and this is the reason why tyrants are at war with the good; they are under the idea that their power is endangered by them, not only because they will not be ruled despotically, but also because they are loyal to one another, and to other men, and do not inform against one another or against other men: (3) the tyrant desires that his subjects shall be incapable of action, for no one attempts what is impossible, and they will not attempt to overthrow a tyranny, if they are powerless.

>Under these three heads the whole policy of a tyrant may be summed up, and to one or other of them all his ideas may be referred: (1) he sows distrust among his subjects; (2) he takes away their power; (3) he humbles them.
The Marks of a Tyrant -Aristotle

>>95736884
good versus evil

>>95711098
LE? You use laws, rules and authority to your advantage and to the detriment of others. A Gangster Boss, a sadistic cop, prison guard or teacher, a cruel lawyer or judge, a greedy heartless trader or venture capitalist, etc. No mercy, no compassion, just cruelty, because the 'rules' say you can.

>>95666241
>>95681785
If Johnny the table cleaner, is actually a bastard who dreams about killing the innkeeper he works for and having his ways with the innkeepers daughter. However he will never act on it because he is to weak and cowardly more than anything else. Is Johnny good or evil?

This is why alignment works best as a supernatural force that each individual has an inherent leaning towards, because it just lets you say that Johnny is Evil where otherwise you would have to get into a whole Nature vs Nurture debate.
It also lets you explain why a society would have people from chaotic and evil alignments be tolerated if they can detect them. A guy might be a shithead inside, but if he does his job and doesn't cause any problems, he can live out his life just not acting upon his natural tendencies.

>>95689003
>That means the only way to be Chaotic is lulsorandumb.
No it's not.
>I follow the status quo of the land
Lawful
>I lead a revolution to change the power structure to one I favor
Also lawful
>I don't do politics anymore. I already installed a new king and he turned out as rotten as the old one. I'm just here to save the orphans.
Chaotic good

>>95627312 (OP)
What's the balance then?

>>95649651
I think that Moorcock's best expression of this is in the short story To Rescue Tanelorn, from 1962. https://www.readanybook.com/ebook/to-rescue-tanelorn-707381 is a collection that has it.

The story involves a journey through 5 gates to reach the Grey Lords, who have no allegiance to Law or Chaos.
The second Gate is Moorcock's concept of Chaos: A roiling, ever-changing plane shaped by the whims of its powerful Lords; "but what exists in Chaos save the disorders of the minds of gods gone mad?". Pure chaos is hostile to life because the endless permutations of its universe do not care about the direction of humanity, or anything else. Hence, the arms of Chaos is an 8-pointed wheel, endless possibilities that cancel each other out.

The fourth Gate is to the realm of law: an endless, grey expanse that is only occupied by a single being, stripping away reality to pure nonexistence; "the final effort of will which will bring me to the ultimate truth—the truth of non-being". Pure Law because life is change, which Law abhors. Hence, the arms of Law is a single arrow pointing upwards, progressing to a single point of entropy.

When the multiversal conflict weighs too much towards one or the other, the Balance calls upon the Eternal Champion to even the odds.

>>95743854
*Pure law is hostile to life because life is change, pardon me.

>>95743854
Thanks. Are there any other Moorcock books that get particularly deep into this? Especially ones that have the protagonists fighting for Chaos and still being sympathetic.

>>95681706
I don't take advice from a cuck simp like him.

>>95647683
it's not really unorthodox, just independent minded. the classic chaotic good is the action hero police detective who plays by his own rules. extremely standard trope. he's blatantly chaotic because, y'know, he plays by his own rules. that's why the chief suspends him and tells him he's off the case. but he keeps pursuing the bad guy anyway, because he's chaotic but also good.

>>95744997
>it's not really unorthodox, just independent minded. the classic chaotic good is the action hero police detective who plays by his own rules. extremely standard trope. he's blatantly chaotic because, y'know, he plays by his own rules. that's why the chief suspends him and tells him he's off the case. but he keeps pursuing the bad guy anyway, because he's chaotic but also good.
That is my point. A lot of fucking people think this way because law and chaos is whatever you feel like is in charge. The idea that chaos is a impediment to tyranny is childish.

>>95689174
That makes more sense than the current interpretation.

>>95744829
Stormbringer is the novel that expresses the metaphysic most clearly. There's an audiobook of it on yt.

>>95744997
>>95745133
Law vs Chaos is moreso "I think that there should be structure to society and rules" vs "I think there should be no structure to society".

>>95736884
>how would you define Law versus Chaos in simple terms
Unless we are speaking in metaphysical terms, I wouldn't define them as opposite. Law limits Chaos because it is determination, but it doesn't necessarily (or even often) tries to be totalitarian. Older systems for example only cover a small number of very specific cases, letting the rest up to traditions and social trends.
Law vs Chaos works at an aesthetic level, but not any further. The moment you start thinking about it it crashes down. Especially since its always framed as religious on top of things. How is the commands of the Gods of Chaos to be taken if not as Law?

>>95745300
>How is the commands of the Gods of Chaos to be taken if not as Law?
Then you make them capricious and fickle. Passing fancies are not Law.

>>95745436
Yeah, IIRC, doesn't a certain schemer Chaos god sabotage his own schemes because if he ever totally won he'd poof out of existence?

Arioch, Xiombarg, Mabelode the Faceless, Chardros, Pyaray, Slortar the Old, Balaan and Maluk, Nnuuurrr'c'c of the Burning Flame.

>>95745436
>Then you make them capricious and fickle. Passing fancies are not Law.
Why would Law imply permanency? It never has. Laws implies their own defined jurisdiction and time frame.
The "form" of Law is that of an order or instruction coming from an ancestor/God. A Law can change on a dime for its opposite, 15 times a day, as long as the Legislator has legal authority.

>>95748644
>Why would Law imply permanency? It never has.
Nigger what? It's hard to even react to such a ludicrous statement.
>A Law can change on a dime for its opposite, 15 times a day, as long as the Legislator has legal authority.
Bro, the Law as seen in alignment systems obviously entails a from of jusnaturalism. What you're talking about is government fiat.

>>95748737
>Nigger what? It's hard to even react to such a ludicrous statement.
> legal prescription is illegal
You can quite literally make a law that says that that law will no longer be legal after x amount of time, and *nothing else*. If Law can do this, then it is not permanent, by principle.
>>95748737
>Bro, the Law as seen in alignment systems obviously entails a from of jusnaturalism
In which case God or the Gods have full legislative authority, the same way Natural Law scholastics often used scriptures to justify taking a more specific stance than what aristotelico-thomist ontology truly warranted.
Which is a lot more of a concern in the context of a fantasy world were Gods could be in constant and direct communication with their servants, and do not necessarily align with the predominant natural order.

>>95748840
>You can quite literally make a law that says that that law will no longer be legal after x amount of time, and *nothing else*.
Man, get the fuck out with your juridical positivism. It has no place in settings where Order is a an actual, physical force.
>In which case God or the Gods have full legislative authority,
Not in the usual fantasy pantheons, no. The principle of order is above the Gods since they themselves rank on that law-chaos axis.

>>95748644
>>95748840
>If Lathander blows a fuse and start killing innocent people, that makes murder Good because Lathander gets to decide what's Good
No.

>>95748737
>>Why would Law imply permanency? It never has.
>Nigger what? It's hard to even react to such a ludicrous statement.
> "Maximus Cuntus has been declared public enemy of Rome by the Patricians. It is your duty as a citizen of Rome to do wrong at every turn to Maximum Cuntus, and never do him right."
> 300 years later, kids named Maximus Cuntus still get shanked because HURR DURR LAW IMPLIES FOREVER
You fucking retard.

>>95748879
>Man, get the fuck out with your juridical positivism. It has no place in settings where Order is a an actual, physical force.
Sure, it does. In this case the Legislator is the setting's author.

>>95749021
A ridiculous argument.
Consistency and continuity are pillars of the Law. It doesn't mean a single law can never change.
The lawful lawyer can change a law, not in the name of it's consequences or of the common good, but because he has shown it to be inconsistent with the Law. Such a law targeting a single individual would promptly be shown to be inconsistent.
"Hurr durr lawful means whatever the local lord decides" is such a pedantic argument it doesn't deserve consideration, and barely more than a play on words.
By saying there is nothing more than government fiat, you just show you don't believe in Order at all, which would be fine argument for a chaotic character, but doesn't invalidate the concept.

>>95749131
>Consistency and continuity are pillars of the Law.
Pillars of modern, Rule of Law societies. Mongol raiders had a legal system, as Montesquieu showed. It didn't care much about consistency.
>>95749131
>By saying there is nothing more than government fiat
There is nothing more than government fiat in a society where law is nothing more than government fiat.

Anyone under a non-codified legal system arguing that Law is order and structure should fucking hang himself from the shame of such a profoundly abhorrent statement.

>>95749507
>It didn't care much about consistency.
You can't show that. Maybe don't pick a legal system we know fuck all about.
>a society where law is nothing more than government fiat.
Doesn't exist in a world where a spell can fuck you up depending on how lawful you are.

>>95749735
>You can't show that. Maybe don't pick a legal system we know fuck all about.
Unless we are getting into Whitehead-level argument, yes I can. The yasa was essentially just the application of military orders to civilian life.
> The Yassa aimed at three things: obedience to Genghis Khan, a binding together of the nomad clans, and the merciless punishment of wrong-doing. It concerned itself with people, not property. Unless a man actually confessed, he was not judged guilty unless he was caught in the act of crime.
> The Laws of Genghis Khan
> 1. It is ordered to believe that there is only one God, creator of heaven and earth, who alone gives life and death, riches and poverty as pleases Him – and who has over everything an absolute power.
> 8. Forbidden, under the death penalty, to pillage the enemy before the general commanding gives permission; but after this permission is given the soldier must have the same opportunity as the officer, and must be allowed to keep what he has carried off, provided he has paid his share to the receiver for the emperor.
> 10. Forbidden, to cut the throats of animals slain for food; they must be bound, the chest opened and the heart pulled out by the hand of the hunter.
> 11. It is permitted to eat the blood and entrails of animals – though this was forbidden before now.
> 12. (A list of privileges and immunities assured to the chieftains and officers of the new empire.)
> 20. It is forbidden to bathe or wash garments in running water during thunder.
The consistency is quite striking.

>>95631226
Louise Cooper's Time's Master Triology (don't bother with the sequels, really). Subversive in that it was one of the earliest "Chaos isn't necessarily BAD" without going overboard and making Chaos ~nice~.

>>95750169
>(don't bother with the sequels, really)
Why not? And how did it make it so that Chaos isn't necessarily evil without going too far?

>>95745174
Thanks!

>>95765814
>>95765997
>>95766158
>>95766255
>>95766285
kill yourself bumpfag

>>95627312 (OP)
Why does Chaos have to look so cool even when it's evil?

>>95772219
recruitment tactic
they wouldn't get anyone to join them if it was the faction of "be evil and get killed by heroes while also looking stupid"

>>95775534
How to make the forces of Law look cooler then...

>>95630341
This is a myth. The chaos-order axis was orginially good and evil before the direct good/evil axis was added on.
Morecock was also full of shit. Order is not stagnation. Chaos causes stagnation, because it ultimately destroys that things that cause progress.
Before "muh Oppressive Regime", those governments are not orderly. They're in fact more chaotic and closer to warlords due to the economic and physical strife they cause. Anyone whose actually looked into a horrible beauracracy knows it's a chaotic mess LARPing in suits.

>>95627312 (OP)
I practice Taoism, get fucked.

>>95780208
>I practice Taoism, get fucked.
What does Taoism have to do with anything?

>>95778838
>Yeah, because a pervasive regulatory structure and state policies designed to maintain the status quo is what is truly conductive to innovation and a robust bureaucracy and legal structure micromanaging as many aspects of society as possible is just like a warlord rule!
>A bureaucracy being over-complicated and confusing to me mean it chaos because cause stagnation while an dynamic equilibrium of different people and entities competing with each other pushing new models and ideas is actual order because promotes innovation!

I'm going to KILL Chaos

>>95788291
>Yeah, because a pervasive regulatory structure and state policies designed to maintain the status quo is what is truly conductive to innovation
Yes. Stability creates progress.
>and a robust bureaucracy and legal structure micromanaging as many aspects of society as possible is just like a warlord rule!
Also, yes. When has bureaucracy ever slowed down people with power?
>A bureaucracy being over-complicated and confusing to me mean it chaos because cause stagnation
It designed to actively help low impulse dependent class oppress the middle class.
>while an dynamic equilibrium of different people and entities competing with each other pushing new models and ideas is actual order because promotes innovation!
Sure whatever.

Law and Chaos as values are spooks.

>>95801961
>I'm going to KILL Chaos
How?

>>95627312 (OP)
Law is 80% good and Chaos is 95% evil. But broadly I agree with you.
>>95627460
Lawful has never meant following the law.
>>95778838
>The chaos-order axis was orginially good and evil
Correct. Unfortunately Gygax fucked it up when he published Adnd dooming us to a Myers-Briggs tier of understanding alignment to this day.
>>95807126
Rip and tear till it's done.

>>95786188
Refuse Law or Chaos. Choose balance in all, also known as cocaine.

>>95627312 (OP)
While demons from the worlds of chaos have tried time and time again to corrupt this world, they're usually kept at bay by the intervention of mortals and their gods.
Yet elemental forces of order have ravaged this middle dimension on multiple occasions, even risking to unravel the fabric of creation itsels and among others it were the beings of the near chaos dimensions that helped mortals in their fight for survival until the other elemental lords of order even took note and dealt with their "rogue element".

>>95627312 (OP)
/tg/ should be only for generals and this thread is proof.

>>95807126
Runestaff
Or maybe even eviller Chaos

Alignment Systems are gay and retarded.
But the og law/chaos axis is less gay and retarded than the 3x3.

The more autistic the differences get, the less nuance or interest there is.

Law/Chaos could be representative of good and evil, but they could just as easily represent Tyranny or Freedom, depending on the themes of the story you are trying to tell.

However, it is important to note that "Chaos" is intrinsically destructive, whereas "Law" is Constructive; it's just the eternal battle between entropy and complexity, which also feed one another.

A complex system breaks down into less individually complex but more dynamic parts, which re-aggregate into other systems elsewhere, in other configurations.

That's the cycle of order and chaos as I understand it

>>95627462
Convince me you should work on your art.

>>95627312 (OP)
Other way around, play Megami Tensei

>>95627312 (OP)
Both sides bad.

>>95808299
>However, it is important to note that "Chaos" is intrinsically destructive, whereas "Law" is Constructive; it's just the eternal battle between entropy and complexity, which also feed one another.
They're both nonconductive to life.
Like extreme hot or extreme cold, life can only exist on the gradient between them.

>>95627312 (OP)
Taxation is theft made by law, something chaos can only dream of doing. Evil chaos is a bad day. Evil law is a bad enforced tradition.

>>95810223
>Taxation is theft
club dues are not theft if you use resources or goods in a members only area. The owners or people who manage it have a right to charge for it's general use.

>>95627312 (OP)
Chaos and Law are just a monster and spell flagging system to ensure that cleric spells hurt undead and vice versa.

It was meant to be purely mechanical and for gameplay purposes, it was never meant to be a worldbuilding guideline.

>>95811558
Membership into a club is voluntary, the state in the other hand just demand a cut of everything you make without any agreement or consent and can unilaterally change what it consider "your right" on a whim as it isn't behold to a contract
It's indistinguishable to a gang laying claim to an area of a city and start charging protection money or limiting services to only those linked to them

>>95813820
You have freedom of movement and can leave the country any time you'd like.

>>95814162
Unless he's american lmao
then he still has to pay american taxes no matter where he goes because they own his ass

>>95815570
>Unless he's american lmao
>then he still has to pay american taxes no matter where he goes because they own his ass
Wait, it seriously works like that?

>>95627312 (OP)
>>95627487
>>95632861
Ahem

May I present: The one true answer to this thread

>>95821437
>Myers-Briggs tier understanding of alignment
Exactly as I foretold.
>>95815570
Even then nothing stops him from renouncing citizenship. He's mad that every action he's ever taken affirms his voluntary participation in in his national community but doesn't have the second order thinking to make sense of it.

>>95821088
Yes
Only country in the world to do that btw

Evil will always win, because good is dumb.

>>95627312 (OP)
Chaos isn't real, and its opposite is Order, not Law

>>95665518
Everything in the real universe or any fictional universe you can conceive is predetermined by the laws of causality of the known universe, so nothing can truly be chaotic. You yourself are unable to come up with anything that isn't caused by something else or doesn't follow a pattern, in your example war is part of the order of the universe, since it's destined to happen in a given season, whether people know about it or not. True randomness is impossible and inconceivable by any mind.

>>95627312 (OP)
How do superhero settings, like Marvel typically handle Law or Chaos? And what kinds of superpowers do you think work well for each side besides magic?

>>95821437
>May I present: The one true answer to this thread
How would you define "Order" in this context?

>>95627312 (OP)
Come on guys, we've had this figured out for ages now.

>>95814162
>You have freedom of movement and can leave the country any time you'd like.
that changes nothing nor give any legitimacy to a bunch of thieves and psychopaths to demand you pay them or else

>>95821718
>voluntary participation in in his national community
There's no such thing, the state(bureaucrats and politicians) forcing itself on peoples lives and blocking, voluntary alternatives to their services and claiming ownership over your property, forcing you to pay them to keep the things you have and don't be kidnapped and imprisoned don't create any community or creates any kind of duty towards it
and no, interacting with other peoples subjected to them doesn't do either

>renouncing citizenship
another cope, another goal post move to defend your beloved pedo psycopaths "right" to claim the fruits of your work

>>95834911
>that changes nothing nor give any legitimacy to a bunch of thieves and psychopaths
No but you waking up everyday and choosing to involve yourself in that society(club) does.
>blocking, voluntary alternatives to their services and claiming ownership over your property, forcing you to pay them to keep the things you have and don't be kidnapped and imprisoned
Sounds like the kind of place I'd want to move away from. Unless you are exaggerating... and I can't imagine anyone exaggerating their story on an anonymous basket weaving forum.
>another goal post move
I didn't moved anything. If you don't recognise the authority of your government then why do you want them to count you as one of their own?

Grow a spine and take action. Plenty of people have done it. Sea steders, Sealand, Hutt River. Why are you pissing and shitting yourself instead of doing something about it.
>inb4 moral high ground
Shut it. You are as bad as the commies with their 'stolen surplus value' cope.

>>95834720
>fire melting metal = destruction
>wood absorbing water = creation

>>95627312 (OP)
>your quadrant system isn't at least this complex

>>95841127
>fire melting metal = destruction
>wood absorbing water = creation
I don't get it.

>>95834720
>W*stoids are still making Yin and Yang about good and evil
Even trying to think outside of black and white, you fags still only about black and white.

>>95843295
Let's remind them, shall we?

>>95629461
Personal standards are not the same as written law. That he follows his way exclusively with no formal claim to the authority over those who established the colonies he robs freely makes him chaotic.

>>95843146
The metal isn't being destroyed, only reshaped, whereas wood absorbing water leads to rot and hastened entropy.

>>95627312 (OP)
No. Good is good, and evil is evil. Law and chaos different spectrums.

Chaos is growth but it is also entropy.

Law is consistency, but it is also stagnation.

Unironically, the best alignment philosophy will have to come from palladium, which includes good, evil, lawful, chaotic, selfish, and selfless in a much more realistic and understandable philosophy system.

>>95851940
>Unironically, the best alignment philosophy will have to come from palladium,
Picture related I presume? It looks like basically the same D&D system with some minor tweaks.

>>95627312 (OP)
>The law says be evil
What now?

>>95861175
this was already addressed in the thread

It's been about a decade since I've been on 4chan and this is the first post I see coming back. It's refreshing in a way to know that the more things change, the more they really do stay the same.

>>95867897
>bumpfag
Are you proud of yourself?

>>95627460
>>95643131
>>95689003
Robin Hood was fighting against a tyrannical king who stole the thrown, keeping with his former oaths of service and abiding by the original laws set down by the true king. Robin Hood was actually lawful good if you're familiar with the story. If you're only aware of it from cultural osmosis, then he seems like a Chaotic Good character, but he actually isn't. Little John is more of the Chaotic Good type.

>>95627312 (OP)
>Chaos is evil
>Law is good

Then why are devils Lawful Evil?

>>95867897
Is there anything more embarrassing than AoS "art"?

>>95868078
Peasant coded hands typed that post

>>95868077
Because Gygax was an imperfect man who made some imperfect game design decision (Adnd is still better than 99% of in print rpg systems though).
>>95868374
>Pot screams at kettle
Man hands typed that reply.

>>95868072
You were refuted earlier, the earliest known attestions of Robin Hood had him sticking it to the rich and powerful. The lawful version is a monarchist revision.

>>95868558
Cope harder roundhead. England belongs to the rightful king.

>too much chaos makes you a monstrous rapist with mismatched limbs and absolutely no humanity
>too much law makes you boring and mindless
>"HUUUURRRR CAN'T YOU SEE THAT BOTH ARE BAD AND WE NEED TO HAVE BALANCE??"
that's why I can't take Moorcock and his sycophants seriously. Actually, even in his original stories he couldn't quite point how the reign of Law was a bad thing, he just said "Dude trust me it's bad"

>>95868787
>Actually, even in his original stories he couldn't quite point how the reign of Law was a bad thing, he just said "Dude trust me it's bad"
Really? And also, doesn't too much Law lead to dictatorships?

>>95741736
Johnny is morally evil, but not actively committing any acts of evil or planning to do so, so he can't be charged.

Johnny is also originally from a talk about DnD paladin's "detect evil", so the original question was "is this morally bad person evil enough to be detected by a power that's mostly mean for zoning in on the literal demons?".

>>95627312 (OP)
If you had to choose (and Undivided was off the table), which Chaos God would you serve and why? I like planning and sorcery, so you can guess my choice.

BTW, besides Malal, are there any archetypes or godly domains that would fit as new Chaos Gods?

>>95877243
>I like planning and sorcery, so you can guess my choice.
I like sorcery too, but if you really like planning you should probably make a better plan than to serve the one who WILL screw you over for funsies. It's a shit plan because it will go wrong in 100% of outcomes.

More than a month of constant fucking necrobumping.

>>95877343
What's wrong? Afraid the board won't have space for new threads?

>>95633662
Okay, is there ANYWHERE that actually spells out this storyline? Because FBG's stupid "teehee, we won't tell you~" policy banning any clear information from their wiki so you have to pay them hundreds across multiple bad-end accounts in order to read their book is infuriating.