‘Elves’, ‘djinn’, ‘faries’ are essentially the same thing. Even games that try to have elves that are more accurate to the real beliefs like Call of Cthulhu, not just myths but living belief, of elves don’t capture their true power as forces of nature within of themselves. The sickness that people succumb to*, the chaotic winds, the rocks of the land which they were described to live in - they were/are these things as much as they are/were of these things. Even Tolkien you have to remember was inspired by this as the seemingly biological elves of his world actually seem to parallel the believes of European people concerning nature spirits but through symbolic (symbolism is beyond the simplicity of allegory) myth. Undying immortal beings, ethereal, coming from a different land (symbolic for the spirit realm/otherworld/astral?),naturally possessing powers impossible to mortals, beyond mortal comprehension - yet mirroring them and having a shared fate in the divine plan. And Tolkien mentioned that elves became invisible did he not? Now in medieval Christian times there were a variety of beliefs concerning how spirits could be converted to Christianity, and early Christianity had a particular story concerning Satyrs. Elves came to be believed to be neutral angels, who did not pick a side during lucifer’s rebellion and had fallen to the earthly realm or really a liminal space in between, and there were various debates whether they could or could not be redeemed (Wolfram Von Eschenbach denied the possibility to such beings). Now does that not mirror the beliefs of djinn, beings of smokeless fire, being able to become Islamic? Or many categories of spirits being able to take up Buddhism? There is a pattern of beliefs being referenced by Tolkien here. And really, what would be the point of man if elves already existed as being perfect and better, unless you look more deeply into things?


*schubert’s Elf King

>>95850494 (OP)
Now elves were prayed to even in Christian times as like saints, elves were being worked with or against in such cases as ‘elf-shot’ in magical practices’, fairy magic was a very real practice that came up in medieval court cases, so are countless Islamic grimoires concerning djinn. And yet I have never seen a case of an elf being depicted as a force that can be manipulated or worked with by human magicians in any modern fantasy work, and really do I see humans being manipulated by elves as they are so often depicted as doing. Even drow or wood-elves do I rarely see the pure naturalistic chaos that elves could embody, as purely chaotic forces of nature that could heal you or destroy you in any second. Now the transcendent nature of elves in fantasy works is also a joke, and elves get mocked for being pretentious but that’s because the mortal mundane nature of elves in fantasy works don’t really capture the purely incomprehensible transcendence of elves that Tolkien captured in symbolically. They appear as a joke, and are treated as fantasy Frenchmen, because unlike Tolkien or elven spirits they have no real transcendence to back up their pomp. Sure they are skilled, wise, artistic, they are biologically stronger and magically speaking too but they are really just biologically more advanced humans at the end of the day. Elves sometimes appeared as something that so resembled humanity, yet so incomprehensible and pure in their beauty because they were/are beyond anything in this world- literally. Nor is the sexuality of elves really addressed in fantasy at all, because it is uncomfortable, but it captures their inhuman nature that’s beyond any human comprehension of morality. Now in popular fantasy sexuality is a way to demean or mock elves, but really it was their most dangerous weapon. Tales of female elves seducing men via vile games only to kill them and eat them, even if they saw through it all and refused.

>>95850494 (OP)
TTRPG elves are just long lived retards who are inferior to humans in every possible way other than longevity, yet still act as if they were superior.
>look, I'm a lazy stupid fuck who needs 200 years to learn what the humans can figure out in 2 weeks! Bow to my superiority!

>>95850615
Female elves engaging with sex with men in order to pull sick pranks on them. And stories of male elves, well, frankly being rapists with stories such as the birth of Gunther the half-elf. Now as silly as that may sound for spiritual creatures, stories concerning such things also exist for gods, and the existence of half-elves mirrors stories of Demi-gods or people born from men having relations with such things as nymphs. The weird woman who claimed to have sex with elves did so with the backing of folklore. There is of course the whole thing concerning light elves and dark elves, the Seelie and Unseelie courts, black lodge vs white lodge type stuff, the underworld (irrational and subconscious) and the overworld (highly ideal, superconscious) - as above so below. Though it’s not like light elves are described as being free from dark mischievousness either, or killing you because you did not appreciate their beauty enough. Even Tolkien’s orcs being corrupted elves, calls to existence itself and nature being corrupted by evil, and makes the industrial and anti-nature essence of orcs more impactful. They are the blight and sickness of the earth

My point is that there is no fantasy work that really captures the spiritual, uncontrollable, chaotic and purely natural nature of elves. The human relationship to them is always to an ally or rivalry towards a snobbish elder, and yet they are extremely detached which is far from the relationship that people lived, not what is essentially a relationship of humans with nature, something they can work with, bargain with, even fight and protect against but never tame. A deep respect that comes not from pretentious pomp, but with an understanding of something that is integral to their being and them being something that is really beyond any normal comprehension.


*also forgot to mention in my first post that many Icelanders considers some rocks to be Christian churches for elves to congregate

>>95850756
>Gunther
Sorry, I meant Grim Hagen

>>95850494 (OP)
To be fair, have you seen what they've done to gnomes? Elves got off real fucking easy.

>>95850763
Also, it’s interesting that elves became small in public perception which mirrors Irish of forgotten gods becoming smaller. As the image of elves became a whimsical joke, perhaps in a subconscious attempt to tame them in a rational age, they became smaller sand smaller. Tolkien made elves big again, somewhat respectful in a way but not striking the fear or respect in the heart of man as they did before

>>95850494 (OP)
The reason why elves were dumbed down into basically Romulans is because to have them accurate to their source or even Tolkien's perception of them would ruin the balance of the game - even fairies who are often made frail to compensate will break many modules through the ability to fly out of the box.
Thus, elves evolved into their D&D mold where they're like extremely-long lived humans.

>>95850615
>And yet I have never seen a case of an elf being depicted as a force that can be manipulated or worked with by human magicians in any modern fantasy work, and really do I see humans being manipulated by elves as they are so often depicted as doing.
Shin Megami Tensei treats them this way.

stfu

>>95850775
I so want to have a campaign where gnomes are 7 times stronger than humans, and turn into trees when they die of old age.

>>95850494 (OP)
OP in this thread cannot be called heterosexual.

>>95850494 (OP)
Settings with elves with this vibe?

>>95850494 (OP)
>Elves in most fantasy works cannot be called elves
Yes they can. Elves are elves because the author said so you pedantic faggot. You're just as bad as people who demand historical accuracy in fantasy.

>>95850494 (OP)
Traditional games?

tl;dr

>>95850494 (OP)
a thread died for this

Tolkien ruined elves though
Elves are not supposed to be concrete, they are supposed to be mystical and otherworldy, inhuman and amoral, which Tolkien's elves are not.
>Figures were now moving fast and furious along the Trod; he could see them approaching from the distance. It was an inspiring, an intoxicating vision, and yet quite credible, with no foolish phantasmagoria of any childish sort. He saw everything as plainly as though he watched a parade in Whitehall, or a procession at some southern Battle of Flowers. Yet lovely, happy, radiant—and irresistibly enticing. As the figures came nearer, the light increased, so that it was obvious they emanated light of their own against the dark moorland. Nor were the individual figures particularly striking, least of all sensational. They seemed “natural,” yet natural only because they were true and justified.
>In the lead, as they drew nearer, Norman saw a tall dark man riding a white horse, close behind him a fair shining woman in a green dress, her long, golden hair falling to her waist. On her head he saw a circlet of gold in which was set a red stone that shone and glowed like burning flame. Beside her was another woman, dark and beautiful, with white stones sparkling in her hair as diamonds or crystals sparkle. It was a gorgeous and a radiant sight. Their faces shone with the ecstasy of youth. In some indescribable way they all spread happiness and joy about them, their eyes blazing with a peace and beneficence he had never seen in any human eyes.
>These passed, and more and more poured by, some riding, some walking, young and old and children, men with hunting spears and unstrung bows, the youthful figures with harps and lyres, and one and all making friendly gestures of invitation to come and join them, as they flowed past silently.

>>95855304
Go and write your own book, Fat Fat Martin

Some of the early Exalted lore books have some great stuff on the Fair Folk, OP. You may like them. Beings that are more living forces or story books are a weird concept it goes in to.

>>95855304
I think people's issue is how little the books actually focus on Elves. We only really get to see one, very young, elf. The rest are very much background characters in a setting where they already had their heyday. The age where some madman made jewels so powerful they captured the first light to ever shine is long gone, and those kinds of feats may also be physically impossible now. The elves 'diminishing' should be taken literally.

>>95850494 (OP)
Bunp

>>95850494 (OP)
>cannot

They're Elves. Woah, looks like you're wrong. I think what you meant was "Should not," but you are esl and also brown, so I don't expect better.

>>95850494 (OP)
>>95850615
>>95850756
Excellent posts.
>>95855304
Also true, but incidentally Tolkien's elves are still the best modern fantasy has to offer.

>>95855334
Cope, tolkienfag
the story i am quoting was written long before LOTR
>>95855416
>>95862715
Tolkien's elves are better than basically all fantasy elves but they're still not really elven

>>95850494 (OP)
>>95850615
>>95850756

Great stuff- probably better posted to /lit/ though

We can still pivot the discussion to how to actually stat and balance a truly otherworldly elf, because let's face it, players want to play elves, dwarves, sometimes fairies even. More than they want fancy/deep world building.

The One Ring 2e is probably a good place to start

>>95864094
Not OP but /lit/ is more suitable for literary fiction, not genre fiction. Fantasy fiction can serve as the backbone of a campaign setting for a game so it's still roughly in line with what /tg/ is about.

>>95855304
Tolkien Elves are older than you think. In Dutch folklore there is the character of Elegast, who is king of the Elves and a friend of Charlemagne. With whom he goes on adventures.

>>95864388
The way folktales, epics, myths etc. treat entities is different than the actual living belief in regards to these entities, of course myths are symbolic and all that - like of course the Greeks knew there was nothing on top of Olympus since there was literally a shrine there. Compare elves in this tale to how Nymphs are treated in classical texts, and yet they really were (or if you are modern person who holds on to these beliefs) are spirits who embody lakes etc. So imo Tolkien elves are in that lineage of using symbolically more anthropomorphic representation of spiritual creatures, specifically elves, with subtle symbolic hints to their spiritual immaterial nature (I mean I know if you take Tolkien only literally middle-earth will become Europe, but middle-earth/midgard - the material plane*). And I would say a good start would be a more intellectually oriented setting with an emphasis on symbolic and philosophical story telling, the elves you play may take a more material seeming and anthropomorphic form but they still embody something greater than themselves, a setting that embraces more dreamlike logic than something 100% rational. Part of the magic that something like Dark Souls, Elder Ring etc. gives off rather than the mysteriousness of not knowing is that the lore feels symbolic, it feels like there is a deeper philosophical weight to what’s going and we subconsciously pick up on that, that’s because Miyazaki was inspired but that sort of storytelling. And if you feel like this would be too much for an average player, we have Planescape. A more philosophical, symbolic and intellectual setting may sound intense but it can really be something as simple as thinking about what your character means to you. It’s like writing a fairytale.

*further on this, middle earth IS also proto-europe (as Tolkien explicitly intended) as well as the material plane. The beauty of using symbology in story telling is that one thing can be a plethora of things

>>95865206
So let’s try to ignore strict rationality here, normal logic is loose in our setting, things are permitted to be if they hold symbolic weight:

Your elf desires to embody itself in the material realm for a meaningful reason, maybe out of love or because of a yearning desire to make what you are existing and be more, maybe some mortals sacrificed to you and you were drawn by an insatiable desire for more things that this world can offer, you want to feel and be part of the game of life so you spun yourself in the limitation of this existence (pic-related). Unlike some other elves who have briefly embodied themselves for the pleasures of the flesh, this is a more permanent limitation that you have taken upon yourself, you subjected yourself to death. Whatever limitations your character takes is theirs to choose, and everything about your character and their story must symbolise something deeper - but it can be simple. Furthermore, any elf characters you play have a set of three or so words that must be connected or so to explain the sphere they abide by, these words must be accepted by the DM. They have a special connection to these themes, they are empowered and limited by them, and it shapes their personality.

In the story, this is symbolised by you passing through some liminal space. They are on a quest, and cannot pass through again until this quest is completed.

>>95865357
I should have replied to >>95864094

>>95865357
Or you could go through the SMT route and say they need magnetite, or spiritual energy, to be here

>>95850775
How the heck did we end up with gnomes like this?

>>95870138
all fantasy races become shit the moment they have to become playable characters balanced against other player races, and have to occupy some sort of niche to make them different from other races.
Elves at least just became braindead coombait and fags, but yeah, gnomes got the worst part of the deal.
Halflings are also pretty trash, although Dragonlance proved they can be even worse.