I saw a level 1 party in Draw Steel!, in a single turn (not round), put down 20 higher-level minions using only ranged, non-AoE attacks. It is similar to 13th Age: minions have HP, are in mobs, and suffer spillover damage. In Draw Steel!, though, spillover from AoE damage is limited.

• Tactician’s First Turn: Gain 2 focus, now at 7 focus due to prior Victories. Spend hero token for 2 surges. Disengage 2 squares away from starting position due to Rapid-Fire kit, Mark one memorial ivy green, Hammer and Anvil for 5 focus on ivy green (natural 19, critical hit, gain 1 focus, 16 damage originally, 24 damage with 2 surges spent and 1 focus spent on mark, kill all ivies green), mark transfers to one memorial ivy blue.
• As part of H&A, shadow Two Shots marked ivy blue and ivy red (natural 8, tier 2 result with edge, 6 damage originally, 12 damage on ivies blue with memonek Useful Emotion surge spent and 1 focus spent on mark, kill three ivies blue, 6 damage on ivies red, kill one ivy red), mark transfers to another ivy blue. Ivies blue down to four units and 16/28 squad Stamina, ivies red down to six units and 22/28 squad Stamina.
• As part of H&A, conduit Holy Lashes marked memorial ivy blue (natural 15, tier 3 result, 10 damage originally, pull 5 with hakaan Forceful, gain 2 piety, ivy blue collides with another ivy blue, 3 damage on each, 16 damage total, kill all ivies blue), mark transfers to one ivy red.
• Thanks to critical hit, tactician has another main action. Tactician is currently at 1 focus. Strike Now! shadow.
• As part of SN!, shadow Two Shots two memorial ivies red (natural 17, tier 3 result, 8 damage on each, 16 damage total, increase to 24 damage with Advanced Tactics and 1 focus spent on mark, kill all ivies red), mark transfers to skeleton blue.

I found this very cool. In just one turn, the party stood back-to-back and John Wicked 20 higher-level minions. (Also, this was an extreme-difficulty fight versus a leader-type enemy. The PCs won.)

Nice shilling but no one gives a fuck about Fatt Coville's low-effort 4e ripoff.

>>95865821

I have found Draw Steel! reasonably entertaining. I think it engenders a different playstyle than D&D 4e, and I am happy to play both games. I have been playing Draw Steel! with people who are already experienced with 4e, so grid-based tactical combat comes to us naturally.

So one guy got to wipe out the whole encounter while the rest sat on their asses and clapped?

I didn't get much else, because you throw around names of Draw Steel's mechanics without explaining them. How am I supposed to appreciate getting focus, edges or marks, if it's all just cryptic babble to me?

>>95865900

That was turn #1, belonging to the tactician. It was, admittedly, a lucky turn with a critical hit. Only the minions were cleared out. There were still other enemies left on the field, including the main, centerpiece enemy, and the non-minion artilleries in the corners.

The other two party members, the conduit (cleric) and shadow (rogue), were just as useful across the combat overall.

>>95865998
I'm glad that the case.
However I won't be able to address anything else as I haven't read the rules and I'm afraid by the time I do that, this thread will have been archived.

>>95865636 (OP)
I'm sorry 5e convinced you that 35hp is usual for a lvl 1 enemy. Play a real game that doesn't recommend liberal use of dm fiat and maybe we will be able to have a conversation.
>>95865821
In what way is it actually related to 4e? Attack rolls are different, armour is different, stat lines are different. Maybe it has some thematic similarities but I don't see any concrete connection.

>>95867958

>I'm sorry 5e convinced you that 35hp is usual for a lvl 1 enemy. Play a real game that doesn't recommend liberal use of dm fiat and maybe we will be able to have a conversation.

I am coming into Draw Steel! from other grid-based tactical RPGs, such as D&D 4e, Path/Starfinder 2e, and ICON. I like Draw Steel!'s own take on grid-based tactics, though as always, there are rough spots and less than perfect balancing here and there.

As far as level 1 HP/Stamina for enemies in Draw Steel! is concerned, it depends on the overall strength of the enemy. For example, a level 1 minion has anywhere from Stamina 3 (on the fragile side) to Stamina 5 (on the sturdy side) and gets lumped in with other minions in a squad, while a level 1 solo enemy has Stamina 200.

That seems like a lot, but consider that four level 1 minions are worth 3 encounter points, while a level 1 solo is worth 36 encounter points. It takes a total of 48 level 1 minions to equal the overall threat of a level 1 solo.

The "memorial ivies" in the opening scenario were level 2 minions, for reference.

>>95868045
>200hp for a lvl 1 enemy
Number bloat is nothing to brag about.
>Actually didn't come from 5e
Pardon my presumption.
>>95865636 (OP)
>The PCs won
The rule book tells directors to make sure the players never die or have to face anything beyond superficial adversity. Winning' a fight is presumed before a single die is rolled. I'm glad you had fun but that isn't playing a tactical grid based game, it's role playing as someone playing a tactical grid based game.

>>95868389
>The rule book tells directors to make sure the players never die or have to face anything beyond superficial adversity,
No, it doesn't. At all. Stop lying about something you don't know anything about.

>>95868405
>Stop lying about something you don't know anything about.
I'm happy to be wrong but I've watched enough of Colville's Running the Game series to know how he feels about player death. He's literally said things to the effect of 'keep balancing your encounters during combat' as in reduce it's hp and fudge die rolls if the players are losing (or increase hp and fudge die rolls if they are winning to hard). I'd be truly shocked if that advice isn't in his personal rpg book.

>>95868426
Prepare to be not surprised (Page 15 backer packet 2).
There's also a bit, a bit earlier (page 6) where the book tells you "oh, did all your minions die before they could do anything? (As happened in OP's example) Just have more show up until you are happy with what they ended up doing!"

>>95868514
This is exactly what I talking about.
You can't win a game that is just whatever the director feels like at the time. Every win was guaranteed from the start, every loss was preordained by the Holy Writ that is The Plot(and The Drama!) and it will happen regardless of any choices you make. Maybe you can make friends with a friendly npc that the director wasn't expecting you to and that will in elevate him to the status of Named NPC granting him a character career and levels but only so the director can kill them right before you fight the final boss and give you character motivation.
Is that how your director will play it? I couldn't say, but whatever it is it will happen regardless of your actions.

I will add that the art work seems to be very good despite my disagreements with it's author. Not how I would do it but it's a nice take on a beholder fight.

>>95868389

>Number bloat is nothing to brag about.
I do not think Stamina 200 for a level 1 solo is in any way egregious when that one monster is supposed to represent a standard-difficulty combat for four or five PCs. Damage in this game can really add up, especially when the characters are dogpiling a single enemy and making use of damage boosters (e.g. a tactician's mark, a conduit's Corruption's Curse).

For example, in the combat I mentioned in the opening post, the centerpiece opponent was a leader-type enemy with Stamina 120. That sounds like a lot, but the PCs eliminated all enemies by the end of the second round thanks to piling on the damage.

>Pardon my presumption.
It is fine. Thank you for understanding.

>>95868514

That is one of the suggestions for how a GM might run the game. Me, I do not use that suggestion. I keep all Stamina values public and transparent; for example, if I say that enemy X has Stamina 120, then that enemy has Stamina 120, and only actual damage or healing dealt in-game will cause that to fluctuate.

That is how I run D&D 4e. That is how I run Path/Starfinder 2e. That is how I run ICON. It is also how I run Draw Steel!

>>95865821
>not knowing a 2hu autism thread when you see one
Lurk moar

>>95865865
No you haven't.

>>95868568
This is the case for all RPGs, Draw Steel differs solely in that it's written out in the text. And you're not required to alter them for fuck's sake, if an Autist like touhoufag gets that I can't conceive of how you can't.

>>95871440
The rules literally say you're supposed to.

>this game is storyfag bullshit
>this game is just 4e but in 2025
I feel like these two criticisms literally cannot both be true

>>95873030
Both can be true.

>>95869094
>Stamina 200 for a level 1 solo is in any way egregious when that one monster is supposed to represent a standard-difficulty combat for four or five PCs
I'm not saying it isn't balanced I'm saying it's number bloat. Number bloat implemented only so that everyone at the table feels they have contributed which is nice and all but is also a colossal waste of time. When I (briefly) ran 5e I halved the hp of every enemy and found it only improved the experience.
This leads into the 'game balance' argument which is a premise I reject but that's a whole separate discussion.

>>95871440
GM advice is as important as the ruleset itself in the current climate. RPGs as a spectator sport had left us with a huge shortage of people who actually run games. Colville's Running the Game series and the advice in his rulebook doesn't teach people to run games it tells you to create a narrative railroad which is A: a worse experience and not a game and B: more work to do. Till good game advice becomes more common (and I believe it is getting better) I'll be more harsh on game advice than on how any system actually plays.
I have no particualar issue with the 2d6 Everything Always Hits approach but if it means backed with "don't ever actually kill your players unless everyone has signed the consent sheet (and it adds to the DRAMA!)" then I have no use for it.

>>95873030
>>95873234
Both could be true but I don't think it is in this case. The 4e accusation seems to be shit slinging and until someone gives a shred of evidence otherwise I'll consider it as such. Still no reply to when I mentioned it up here>>95867958.

>picrel
mcdm's lead game dev and inhouse sensitivity reader discussion the stunning and brave topic of censoring medusa because it's anti woman representation.
>source?
In the file name 5head.

>>95873684

>When I (briefly) ran 5e I halved the hp of every enemy and found it only improved the experience.

I have run the level 1 and 2 Delian Tomb adventure, and I have run the level 1 Road to Broadhurst adventure twice. Combats consistently ended during round #1 or #2, with a single instance of combat going into round #3.

If I were to halve all Stamina counts, combat would be too fast: practically rocket tag. This would make for a poor grid-based tactical combat experience.

>>95868426
Tweaking monsters to make combat flow fun isn't the same as "PCs aren't allowed to die". The game has rules for PC death. That means PC death is on the table.
>>95868514
That's about pacing, not PC death.

>>95874724
>combat would be too fast: practically rocket tag
You mean like a real fight when in the blink of an eye people die?
>poor grid-based tactical combat experience
It's not a tactical experience it's BALANCED and FAIR tm. Playing well vs playing poorly doesn't cost you anything other than your daily regenerating skill pool and the occasional consumable item.

>>95874741
>Tweaking monsters to make combat flow fun
I thought the combat was fun already? Why publish a tactical combat game with combat that isn't fun?
>I know you gave us 2 gorrilian dollars for a game book now if you could fix it for us so it's actually enjoyable to play I'd really appreciate it - MCDM according to you
Somehow, I am being more charitable to the authors than you are.

What exactly is the Drama™ or whatever it's called (tension release, incremental intensity etc) that Matt Colville seems to really be beholden to as the core philosophy in his games? I'm curious because from my understanding drama is something that a GM can do with almost all systems, and I don't know how a system can specifically be built around causing or inflicting it.

>>95874724
He's arguing just to argue

>>95875215
DS! is a storygame.

>>95876500
dndrone spotted have fun missing 35% of the time, I’ll be sticking to Draw Steel! because nobody wants to wait 20 mins just to roll a 3

I ran Draw Steel!'s Road to Broadhurst adventure twice (plus a single bonus fight). It was a one-on-one game each time, with one player controlling three PCs. One of the players had prior experience with Draw Steel!, while the other was completely new to the system; both players had prior experience playing and GMing other grid-based tactical games, such as D&D 4e, Path/Starfinder 2e, and ICON.

It was reasonably entertaining as an introductory adventure. I think it is a decent way to on-board players onto Draw Steel! as a system. That said, the first encounter is missing some key mechanics, which made it rather difficult for me to run.

I have a writeup of my experience here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tuhoB77e9EZ6OALSq5AXJxMHTfPvUoJ6bz1WgtiXNwI/edit

I have submitted the playtest survey.

>>95875215
Play more games, specifically stuff like Heart, DitV, and Monsterhearts. The game systems are like monopoly, they breed conflict like rabbits.

I just had an interesting moment with the summoner's Explosive Parade.

One of the trickier scenarios to deal with in Draw Steel! is a distant enemy moving behind a corner. Then, the enemy can pop out from the corner, make a long-ranged attack, and then using their broken-up movement to get back behind the corner. Targeting such an enemy can be tough, especially since there are no readied actions in this game.

Earlier, I was controlling two PCs, a censor and a summoner, and their retainers. The one remaining artillery enemy, a human trickshot at full Stamina, was doing exactly as described above. I had the summoner move forward and spend 5 essence on Explosive Parade.

>EXPLOSIVE PARADE (5 ESSENCE)
>Your minions swell with energy until they can no longer maintain their shape.
>Magic, Ranged
>Main Action
>Distance: Summoner’s Range
>Target: Special
>Effect: You summon 5 signature minions within distance regardless of your minion maximum and without organizing them into squads. Each newly summoned minion immediately moves up to their speed towards a creature or object. If they move adjacent to their target, become targeted by an opportunity attack, or stop moving, they explode.

>Roll power. Each minion deals 3 damage and the rolled effects to one adjacent creature or object. If a target is affected by two or more minions’ explosions, the effects stack. These minions activate no effects upon death, and you gain no essence from their deaths.

>Power Roll + Reason:
>• 11 or lower: Push 1
>• 12–16: Push 2
>• 17+: Push 3

>Special: In addition to the minions summoned as a part of this ability, you can choose to command any number of your minions within distance, provided they haven’t used a main action or maneuver during the turn.

>>95884227

The minions appeared at the edge of Summoner's Range, moved forward and around the corner, and detonated. They dealt 15 damage and pushed the enemy into the wall for collision damage, taking out the human trickshot. I found it interesting.

That said, I find Explosive Parade very confusing. If they can detonate separately, how is the stacking of their explosions' pushes supposed to be resolved? What is the order of operations? How does it interact with forced movement increasers, such as hakaan Forceful?

Sell me on this game. From the outside it just seems like jerking off about how cool and strong your character is, like it's for those people who read Korean comics. I can't say I've ever thought "man, this game would be great if you couldn't fail attack rolls". What does it have over something like Runequest, where you likewise play characters out of a heroic saga?

>>95884282

It is a grid-based tactical combat game along the lines of D&D 4e, Path/Starfinder 2e, or ICON. If you like grid-based tactical combat, there is a good chance that you will like Draw Steel! Otherwise, you will probably categorically dislike Draw Steel!

That is about it.

>>95884588
OP, have you ever played Princess Wing? I personally hate grid-based tactical games in general, but even I was chuffed at how cool it played. Might be worth a look.

>>95889183

I have looked at Princess Wing but have not played it; the mechanics seem okay, but I do not find them especially appealing at first glance.

I have looked at and played Kamigakari. Its gameplay did not strike me as especially tactical.

>>95865636 (OP)
The minion rules state that minions just die in one hit right? All this tells me is that the PC's used their class abilities together and hit 20 opponents in one round, which is hardly remarkable except that 20 is a big number. Bumping for genuine talk about a game though.
>>95878989
Do you have a link to the Road to Braodhurst? I am curious about what they consider a reasonable demo adventure for the game.

>>95896088

>The minion rules state that minions just die in one hit right?

No, they have Stamina pool as squads. Non-Area attacks can spill over into other minions.

>>95873684
DS! is 4e because it has a grid.

>>95865636 (OP)
Is this yet another Strike! reskin?

>>95902799
Yes.

>>95908060
If pressed on it, Fat Bowl-fill would deny ever reading Strike!

>>95908060
>>95909807
Who even plays sking-agnostic 4e? Is it specially welcomed by any fandoms?

I have been playtesting Draw Steel's new summoner class at levels 1, 3, and 6 so far. It has been very rough.

There one mechanic, in particular, that I find very unintuitive and unfun, and it is significantly diminishing my ability to enjoy the class. That would be the damage spillover:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WX4N_L1K9KD1b3j_UNygrunO-GFSMkAC8MflEFB6WGs/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.b62p47fiusfh

>>95915126

To be clear, the damage spillover mechanic means that melee and ranged strikes that target a minion spill over their damage into the rest of the squad, and if there is still any spillover remaining, any excess goes into the summoner. This makes a summoner is exceptionally vulnerable to multitarget attacks.

I demonstrate this in the examples linked above.

>>95915126

To be clear, the damage spillover mechanic means that melee and ranged strikes that target a minion spill over their damage into the rest of the squad, and if there is still any spillover remaining, any excess goes into the summoner. This makes a summoner exceptionally vulnerable to multitarget attacks.

I demonstrate this in the examples linked above.

I am currently doing a Draw Steel combat against shadow elves, and I am at somewhat of a loss on how to handle their Of the Umbra.

>The [shadow elf] ignores concealment granted by darkness. While the [shadow elf] is in direct sunlight, they have damage weakness 3. While the [shadow elf] is concealed, they have damage immunity 3.

As far as I can see, there are no rules for light sources, so what should I do to adjudicate Of the Umbra? It does not seem intended that simply saying, "I happen to have a lantern on hand," is enough to completely obviate Of the Umbra, so what is the overall intent of how a shadow elf fight is "supposed" to work?

The rule for darkness and concealment, for reference:
>Darkness, fog, invisibility magic, and any other effect that fully obscures a creature or object but doesn’t protect their physical form grants that creature or object concealment.