What's the best way to handle zelda like dungeons in a ttrpg? i.e
> Navigation puzzles
> Item-based puzzles
> A major artifact in each major dungeon that helps with navigation / completion

I think it'd be cool to have the party amass these magical artifacts that they can then use both outside of dungeons and in battle to make them more and more powerful. What do you think?

it sounds cool on paper, but 90% of zelda dungeons can be brute-forced with a few hammers, pintons and a few lengths of rope. take the classics
>the door is locked
smash it with the hammers/picks
>generic pressure plates
bring in a random rock from outside or smash the door
>pitfall
ladder/rope/random log from outside

just look at how different BOTW had to be to accommodate link being able to jump and climb freely. TOTK was even worse, it had like one legit dungeon total because everything else was trivialized by flying machines

>>95903517 (OP)
Puzzles are basically a thing that TTRPGs don't do well. I am yet to see a game that has really solid mechanics for puzzles, or even just solid writing advice for puzzles. Some players, when presented with puzzles, especially ones that exist in their imagination based on descriptions you make, just have their brains turn off.

Trust me, I love and wish I could do a Zelda RPG that really fit the item-based progression where they're valuable tools for solving problems, but it's a huge ask.

>>95903563
the point of a puzzle is the same as a monster encounter. its not to stop the players, or even to force them to find a solution, its to let them develop a solution independently. a locked door you can kick open is better than one you cant. not that there isnt a time and place for binary checks like secret treasure rooms and such, but you should make your mandatory puzzles open-ended

It's tempting, but Zelda dungeons are designed to be solved in a particular way. Designing dungeons with an intended solution is the antithesis of TTRPGs, since it makes you less open to the solutions your players will come up with.

Having said that, there are two ideas that potentially translate well to TTRPGs:

The first is a "Puzzle Motif". I ran a dungeon filled with elementals that could combine their powers in unique ways, with order mattering. For example, if there was an earth elemental and an air elemental, the air elemental could summon a bolt of lightning that stretched from it to the earth elemental, and the earth elemental could kick up a cloud of dust or sand. The goal was to find four elemental altars and use them to enchant special keys such that they had a Lightning Key, an Ice Key, and a Mud Key. The combat encounters were fun, but the players just brute-forced every combination of elements until they had the required keys.

The second idea is a section of the dungeon with monsters that are a pain to fight until you find the special dungeon item. There are modules that do something similar, but depending on how it's handled, it can feel a bit too "video gamey". If you're doing a more old-school dungeon crawl, your players won't even trust that the item is safe to use.

>>95903536
>smash it with the hammers/picks
can't do it, the walls of the cave are made of an impenetrable rock
> bring in a random rock from outside or smash the door
neither of those will work. requires special glowing rocks from inside the dungeon to activate.
> ladder/rope/random log from outside
Using ladders and ropes are good, that's depleting resources. Unless you're gonna go outside, cut a tree, haul it back through the dungeon through perilous traps all over again to cross one gap. in which case yeah go ahead idc

>>95903517 (OP)
Zelda like dungeons only work if you can't break it with spells and personal tools. Now to be fair, you could maybe do one at low levels. However past level 3-5. You can start bullshitting it like in BOTW/TOTK. Though a great way of doing a Zelda like dungeon would be a time limited dungeon like in Phantom Hourglass. Maybe make using magic like shooting a flare gun and all the guardians and monsters in the dungeon know of your presence and head towards you. Or trying to prevent cave-in and destroying said ruin for reason.

>>95903690
What about in a game like GURPS

>>95903563
I have had this problem with my players and found a solution. I've bought a dozen or so physical puzzles from AliExpress and cycle through them depending on the rewards solving the specific puzzle should give. Some other things I have tried, with varying degrees of success, are word searches, sudokus, crosswords, and nonograms. A physical puzzle is nice to provide because players can actually try to work together and solve things, but they can always wander around doing other things while leaving the puzzle for someone else to work on.

>>95903517 (OP)
>What's the best way to handle zelda like dungeons in a ttrpg?
To not do it at all. Zelda thrives on the balancing of strict limitations. This is what you can do and nothing else, now figure it out. Great for a boardgame, shit for a RPG, since you can either break puzzles/all challenge by bringing outside influence like unaccounted for items/tools/allies, invent new ways to use the dungeon that again breaks puzzles but wouldn't be programmed in the original vidya, or get frustrated when GM says you can't do shit outside the bounds of the vidya conventions.

>>95903663
>can't do it, the walls of the cave are made of an impenetrable rock
Well then i invoke the tomb of horrors and steal the floor tiles to make impenetrable magic armour. Do i even need the hookshot anymore? I can just go jump gannondorf outside the castle-town popeyes
>neither of those will work. requires special glowing rocks from inside the dungeon to activate.
Okay. I open the first door, jam it with pintons/a log, then bring the spare rock with me for later. Or sell the rock i guess, whatever works
>> ladder/rope/random log from outside
>Using ladders and ropes are good, that's depleting resources. Unless you're gonna go outside, cut a tree, haul it back through the dungeon through perilous traps all over again to cross one gap. in which case yeah go ahead idc
I mean, yeah i am. Each log disarms another trap, so i can just crawl through and get a free pass after two or three days. Also i can always use the ladder to run a slackline, then just reposition it and tightrope my way over each time.

>>95903517 (OP)
>Navigation puzzles
They're good, include them. Jaquays style design causes these, if I understand you correctly, by default.
>Item based puzzles
They're good, include them
>What if PCs short circuit them
Good, also valid.
>Return doors and loops after challenges
I know you didn't ask about this one, but they're good, include them.
>What if PCs short circuit them
Good, also valid.
>Artifacts that help with dungeon performance
You mean "magic items?" They're good, include them.

Happy to help.

>>95903517 (OP)
>how do I make a pen and paper rpg more like a primitive video game aping pen and paper rpgs?
Why the fuck would you want to? Those video games are designed that way because of the limitations of the medium. The whole point of having a GM to referee RPGs is to let players do what they want rather than being limited by the system.

By all means take inspiration from video games or any other media you like. But don't try to make tabletop games play like video games any more than you'd make them play like tennis.

>>95903517 (OP)
play B/X, retard

>>95904010
>Well then i invoke the tomb of horrors and steal the floor tiles to make impenetrable magic armour.
Can't steal them, they're stuck on too tightly. Can't break them either.
> Okay. I open the first door, jam it with pintons/a log, then bring the spare rock with me for later. Or sell the rock i guess, whatever works
The pintons and logs are snapped in twain, the rock is crushed to dust
> I mean, yeah i am. Each log disarms another trap, so i can just crawl through and get a free pass after two or three days. Also i can always use the ladder to run a slackline, then just reposition it and tightrope my way over each time.
You take three weeks to get through the dungeon. By the time you return to the village everyone has already died from the plague you were supposed to save them from.

>>95906964
What if I want to play Labyrinth Lord

>>95908086
>Railroad
Yeah great advice

>>95903663
You'll lose your players video game-ifying a tabletop roleplaying game. Rightfully so.

>>95908521
What do you think a zelda dungeon is

>>95908093
Good game.
>>95908521
Zelda dungeons are generally railroads, anon. A lot of bad TTRPG puzzles too.
That's why all of this is probably a bad idea and one would be better off making some other sort of challenge and tweaking smaller things to get a 'Zelda vibe' than actually reproducing a dungeon that follows those rules.
UNLESS everyone is super on board with doing precisely zelda style gameplay. Then go nuts.

>>95903517 (OP)
Give players a diagram and let them talk and try it out. Make sure wrong attempts are somehow punished, or put some sort of timer on it before XYZ thing happens. "You realize it'll take you so long to push the statues that you've only got enough time for 10 moves before the door opens and the whoseewhatsits are on you!"

I used one such last weekend with mirrors to move beams of light to order according to the astrology of an old religion I'd dropped some hints about. Failure equals explosions. Was fun and they figured it out in not TOO long. They did take plenty of damage, and then figure out that "wait maybe opening a portal to this demon dimension is like... a bad idea?" They closed it pretty quick.

it's satisfying when players 'break' puzzles in unintended ways, you're a dickhead if you do >>95903663

reminds me of the d20 shovelware era of 'this door CAN'T be picked' and 'the prison cell has an anti-magic field'.

OP just run an OSR game, players have to solve your puzzles using THEIR wits and cleverness, not a character sheet. you can also use handouts, puzzle pieces, minis, whatever. but if they just burn down the door, fine. that's funny as hell.

>>95909888
>it's satisfying when players 'break' puzzles in unintended ways
Agreed. I often just use straight up obstacles I have given no thought to their overcoming. Then wait until they do something I like and pretend that was the solution all along. Yep: there's a 200' gorge in the middle of the path. Go 4 days around or figure out some way to cross. Players will always figure out SOMETHING. Just let 'em cook.

>>95909904
this works too! once ran a game where the dungeon map just had two pit traps in a row. nothing else to it, i'm sure it's been done a thousand times.

they found the first one: thief jumped over it, landed right in the second one. survived the spikes. they realised they'd be using this corridor a lot, so their solution was to fill these up, as the designated Corpse Pits.
a wandering monster WHILE filling the pit? great! the more the merrier! the giant spiders from earlier are already cushioning the blow and preventing impalement, keep the monsters comin'.

this became a significant part of their dungeon adventure. it was two squares on a map.

>>95908521
yes it is. take it or find a better GM asshole

>>95903690
Sounds like all those problems stem from whatever system you have in mind and not the concept OP proposed.

>>95903536
Those things are addressed in literally every ttrpg that has dungeon procedures. Play a game, faggot.

>>95903517 (OP)
Likely quite similar to how dungeon crawlers already operate. Just focus on item based progress compared to leveling up your stats and having more distinct effect than just numerical bonuses. You probably can mix the two to some degree.
Also take into account, that you're dealing with a whole party and not a lone adventurer and that Zelda dungeons vary quite a lot with each game in the series.

>>95903536
>>95903663
Both of you need to play a game, instead of theory wanking.

>>95903517 (OP)
A lot of puzzles and shit could never really be done in table top because you're realying upon the player's theather of the mind and your own ability to describe it

>>95903690
I would run the game in BRP not dnd

>>95903536
>door is magic locked AND trapped
gj retard

What if I gave my party a hookshot

>>95914640
Well then someone gets to be the parties designated hooker, obviously.

>>95914640
What if your courage orbits my wisdom?

>>95903517 (OP)
Games like Zelda have an assumption that you will play by their rules. They're a video game not a collaborative storytelling experience. I would set up the Zelda dungeon in much the same way that the game does, but expect the players to come up with unique solutions I hadn't thought of. And be delighted when they did.

>>95911988
You can use handouts retard san

>>95911988
Skill issue.

>>95917466
Did I get it?