Before I start, I just wanted to say: I absolutely loved the concept of Vermis, it's a cool read (even if the second book isn't as good).
That got me thinking: What about an RPG where the objective is for the PCs to die heroically?
Off the top of my head, the concept is like - the entire world is rotting, and everyone who dies goes to Hell to suffer forever. The only way out is to die heroically so you go to Heaven, to escape Hell's grasp.
The PCs are a desperate band of heroes who have set out to cheat Hell, by trying to put themselves into situations where they can die in genuinely heroic ways, saving their souls (I'm somewhat thinking of Fate of the Norns: Ragnarok.)

Of course, just getting stabbed by goblins or dying in a fight isn't enough, you need to do something REALLY heroic and sacrifical or you're damned forever. So you can't just pick a fight, you need to find somewhere you can make an 'unforced' sacrifice.
I think OSR can work for this - I feel other RPGs don't really suit the morbid black comedy of this idea.

>>95940857 (OP)
>game where the goal is suicide
OP, why would anyone actually want to play this?

>>95940880
To clarify, the PCs can't actually commit suicide. That's a ticket to Hell, they want to avoid dying until they can find an opportunity to martyr themselves.
Sure, they want to die, but they can't just die anywhere. I just feel it's sort of a bleakly funny premise, where they need to die but are deathly afraid of it.

>>95940890
Okay, but why would anyone want to play this

>>95940905
Well, I mean it could be a fun one-shot like Black Sun Crawl or something.

>>95940857 (OP)
>even if the second book isn't as good
I mean I quite liked it. The concept of the monks who sequester themselves in darkness so long they metamorphose into some sort of chrysalis and become an outlet for something was pretty awesome.
As for your topic there definitely are games that follow on your line of thought. I can't recall it for the life of me but one was some sort of vaguely medieval/crusade themed where the players were blessed with a power that raised them from the dead but wold inevitably corrupt them so their goal was to finish their last goals. Epic level bucket lists, from completing a grand pilgrimage to saving their dying hometown from the grip of a bandit king to returning the remains of their fallen liege back to his ancestral crypt so the both of you can finally rest in peace.
Really wish I could remember the title,

>>95940968
The imagery was better, but I feel the story was slightly less satisfying.

>>95940857 (OP)
No offense but I think I would have more fun slitting my fucking wrists

>>95940986
Yeah I agree. I think it was a little too straightforward compared to the first. Not that it was bad, just noticeably different.

>>95940857 (OP)
So just Mork Borg then

>>95941023
>>95940986
I was expecting it to follow on from the first's narrative, even with the different start, and eventually use the illusion and mirror worlds thing to ultimately pull back to the mirror pool that book one ended with. Seemed like the natural pay off, so was kind of disappointed when that never happened.

It just seems too contrived to work.

I mean in the spirit of human cooperation you'd think most human civilization would be based around play-acting as evil villains that elderly and sick people would rise up and heroically die to, so the most amount of people could die nobly and go to heaven. These villains would then turn a new leaf in their old age and also become heroes. If you played it right, anything but accidental deaths would just wind up with everyone in heaven.

If you think this is unrealistic, remember that the fear of hell converted entire warrior civilizations into peaceful ones. You literally cannot make a more convincing argument than "you go to hell for that and I can even prove it".

>>95941265
yeah fear of hell must've been what did that...

>>95941265
But it wouldn't be genuine. And if you faked it, you'd go to hell.

>>95941367
Didn't hurt.
>>95941385
What if you faked it really well? Keep in mind, they have entire generations and lifetimes to orient their entire society to not go to hell. What if they did it so long they believed it?
Keep in mind that literally every other option is that 99% of humanity and everyone you know and love goes to hell.

>>95941265
you're going to have such a bad time if you ever interact with a human in real life

>>95941400
It doesn't matter how hard you fake it, no? Presumably the Gods define heroism. It's like trannies: Putting on a dress and chopping off your penis does not make you a woman. You're still male to the core.

>>95941400
>Keep in mind that literally every other option is that 99% of humanity and everyone you know and love goes to hell.
OP here, that's the point. Nearly everyone is indeed going to hell unless they can somehow find a heroic death.

I don't think this would necessarily be enjoyable played straight as you describe, but I could see it working in a kind of Paranoia-esque way where it is more funny than serious. Like, the contrivances and overlapping plots of the PCs each buying to have a more heroic death than the others?

>>95941416
I live in a big country made by the cooperation and order that humans foster.
>>95941536
"Noble" or questioning whether something is genuine or not is a wobblier thing to define than "has a penis".
>>95941538
Yeah, so the whole world would become theatrically structured so that some people would be evil despots and everyone else would attempt to nobly overthrow them. Some people would be legally required to grow big evil curly mustaches and go around oppressing people, so that others could run up to them and try to stop them and die.

Worst part is, you've even incentivized them to fail. It's a better reward to fail to do the right thing, so everyone would value rank incompetence more. People would cheer "look, he failed so valiantly!"

>>95941574
Honestly the world probably wouldn't last more than a generation or two

>>95940857 (OP)
>>95940968
>>95940986
>>95941023
>>95941157
Look at Godhusk, his 3rd book, if you haven't. It's way more of a game-guide than Vermis, which I see as more of an art/story book. It's a weird and terrifying mash up of Contra, Metroid, and Cronenburg body-horror.

>>95940857 (OP)
That sounds like a really fun idea, I've wanted to run a sort of 'End Times' game for a while. I think it would be a cool way to end a long-running campaign. Give a party of high-level PCs a proper send-off.

>>95940857 (OP)
I get the concept, and for a one-shot that's great.
But for something with more legs you might need to expand on the heroic aspect.
I had conceived a Swords & Sorcery game a few years back with a different premise.
PCs make a Conan-like character which follows a particular god. They play a bunch of scenarios as normal, but are guided to play to their gods tenants/rules. The goal is to reach Level 10 (or whatever) and retire with all your riches/whores/castles. But, a suitably heroic death on the way (provided you followed your gods tenants) gave your next PC a significant boost in some capacity.
I was trying to model some kind of generational play ala Pendragon, but with the Conan-like sense of adventure and peril.

>>95941635
>End Times
Did exactly this once. Played out the end of the Warhammer Fantasy universe. Ended up in Altdorf fighting harder and harder demons like some kind of boss-rush until we got wiped. Good way to send off some really high level characters and round out a multi-year adventure.

our hearts do not give out, fellow heroes -

>>95940857 (OP)
Picking up on some ideas from other anons: what you described could be a fun one-shot/very short campaign, to make it a bit juicier I'd add a (possibly custom-made for every character) list of deeds needed to be accomplished before a heroic death can actually send you to heaven. Possible elements of randomness could be introduced.

>[ ] Slay a great Beast
>"We heard about that basilisk ravaging the countryside, does that count as a great beast?"
>"The Gods shall decide once it is slain; 80% chance."

>>95940880
The goal of Planescape: Torment is to die and that game is fucking legendary.

>vermis
derivative fotm memeshit

>>95940857 (OP)
I've done this. The big problem is that unless you're careful, the PCs don't all die at the same time, so you end up either with players sitting around, or with an endless chain of new PCs - which is okay in theory, but in practice a "find an honorable death" campaign really wants to end when your original party have all died off instead of having a lm endless stream of cannon-fodder. The latter can be fun, but it really takes away from the impact of the deaths, and makes them either annoyance or comedy.

>>95940857 (OP)
>What about an RPG where the objective is for the PCs to die heroically?
WFRP to some extent since Slayers are a PC option and their end goal is to die heroically, Doomed in WFRP can also have this effect to an extent, but most players just forget about their PCs dooming.

>>95942293
One of the funnier things in WFRP is a player trying to argue why their PC's death totally matches their Doom.

>>95942231

>>95941632
Can you post the PDF somewhere, please? Like catbox.moe?
I like the aesthetic of Vermis but yeah it definitely needs better and more structured rules.

>>95940905
For absurd heavy metal bathos. "A bleakly funny premise" >>95940890 adequately sums it up, there's nothing else that needs "getting" unless you're mentally challenged.
>>95941265
Given the bleak premise that's a decidedly optimistic take on humanity. In order to avoid >>95941385 and would be self-sacrificial villains would need to be secret about their intent for heroic actions against them to be "valid". If individual doom seems even slightly forestallable then there'll always be a temptation to embrace villainy for real so as to stave off inevitable damnation for even a second. Pascal's wager, however genuine the saved heroes' intent was it's hard to manage a suitably epic deathbed redemption, ESPECIALLY after the evils committed to enable many others to ascend.

Incidentally >>95940857 (OP) is privately the case for one of my settings' Thor / Zeus pastiche. Dude is hewing at the world-tree so as to craft a funeral barge and pyre worthy of his passing as well as a suitably mighty foe to put an end to things. Unfortunately he's too good at destruction and murder to make much headway, the day a proper doom comes calling is the day the rest of existence goes down the drain.

>>95940857 (OP)
Shit premise, OP. All you need is a puppy, baby, or whatever else innocent creature worth saving.
Gather together with everyone else who still needs to get to heaven.
One person is the dedicated bad guy. He places the innocent being on a comfortable surface, and gets ready to throw some lethal weapon at it.
Now, one of the people who needs saving has a chance to sacrifice themselves to save the innocent being. Through this sacrifice, they go to heaven.
Continue until everyone has been saved and there's only the innocent being and the designated bad guy left.
The designated bad guy then kills the innocent being in the fastest, most painless way possible, ideally in a mutually destructive way, like blowing up some kind of bomb or spell. Alternatively, it's the fucking end of the world: just wait a bit and something evil will show up, so you can die defending the innocent being. By virtue of being an innocent being, it goes to heaven anyways. If that's not enough. then strap some knife to it and chuck it at a demon.
Now's the neat part: the designated bad guy has committed the greatest sacrifice by taking upon all that guilt, killing a bunch of innocent-being-saving heroes and finally also the innocent being itself, dooming itself to hell just so that everyone else can go to heaven. This is the greatest sacrifice, so the designated bad guy also goes to heaven.

>>95945208
If the intent behind heroism matters then anyone knowingly taking advantage of utility-maximizing villainy is ineligible for heaven. (incidentally this is yet another reason Pascal's wager is utterly retarded). Further more any dickass gods (or whatever other force sees most sent to hell) who let the world get into such a state likely aren't the sort to appreciate self-sacrificial villains who shit all over the spirit of what heaven's warrior-ethos requirements seems to be encouraging.

Your easy answer relies on bending the premise into a triviality so keep hitting straw if you'd like but I'd rather wrestle with steel. On the bright side such a band of naive utilitarians carrying out the charade only to show up as screaming hell wraths (innocent and all) later would be a fun set piece.

>>95944029
>Can you post the PDF somewhere, please?
Honestly I respect the work too much to do that. I'm sure you can find it if you look hard enough, but it is only like $30 to buy.

People keep saying this is an art book for a fake videogame but I could've sworn I had a copy of this when I was a kid. Is it based on something? Maybe that's what it was.

>>95946973
It's not based on any one thing. The designer enjoyed making art of non-existent games - things like UIs and equipment stats and character profiles. It eventually spawned into its own little universe/story, and rather than just write a story or make an RPG, the designer decided to make this art book posing as a game guide.
You can see the inspiration from older Final Fantasy content, Dark Souls/Kings Field, B/X and OD&D, and others.
>I could've sworn I had a copy of this when I was a kid
That's the feeling the book is trying to elicit - a sense of nostalgia or memory of something that never was.

>>95947055
Yeah, probably one of those old Final Fantasy games where the tried to make the box art for the English version super edgy or something. I don't even remember if I got around to playing it. Whenever I got home from school, my brother would be using the TV to watch some dumb kids show on the public television channel. Those fucking pirates...

>>95946973
The closet I can think of is those Nintendo Power walkthroughs where they hired an artist that's super different from the official art.

>>95945488
>If the intent behind heroism matters then anyone knowingly taking advantage of utility-maximizing villainy is ineligible for heaven.

If the intent behind heroism matters than anyone looking for a heroic death in that world just to get into Heaven is going to Hell instead.

>>95944029
I found it literally effortlessly
It's not very hard, just use Google

>>95947127
That's why finding a genuinely heroic death is hard. And why the PCs are actively going out to look for one.

>>95947195
>That's why finding a genuinely heroic death is hard.
It's not hard, it's impossible. The entire premise of the game doesn't work: in actively looking for a heroic end for their own benefit, any heroic end they find will send them straight to hell because their intent was selfish.

>>95947238
Yes, that's the joke.

>>95947127
Not necessarily or else all the vikings irl would have been barred entry to Valhalla which is incoherent theology. So long as the struggle and suffering is authentic the premise works fine (though the "unselfishly" heroic would likely be simultaneously envied and emulated).

>>95948393
Good inspiration for feuding factions. Kayfabers, absurdist and immortality-at-all-costers would be decent NPCs.

>>95940857 (OP)
>What about an RPG where the objective is for the PCs to die heroically?
There's a slew of solo RPGs with this concept, the most well known being 'The Sealed Library'
>You are the sole surviving librarian of the greatest library in history. It sits in the centre of culture for an ancient land, now fallen to invaders. They pillage and raze.
>The library has been barricaded and you are under siege. What important texts can you move down into the vaults and seal away forever before the barricade breaks?
>What will future generations discover inside the Sealed Library?
>You are hungry, you are scared, you are desperate. The fate of the combined knowledge of generations is in your hands. You know the chances you will see the outside world again are slim, but this is bigger than you.
>The Sealed Library is a game about the preservation of knowledge and the lengths we will go to in order to preserve things that are bigger than us.
>You play the only person capable of saving the collective knowledge and culture of your civilisation. You believe you can save it, some of it. The questions are what will you save and how much of it will you save? You even think you might be able to escape afterwards, but that remains to be seen.

>>95940857 (OP)
I'm a big fan of including themes of damnation in my settings, whether abstract or visceral. This is an interesting take on that kind of existential dread but as is, could lead to some faux-utilitarian silliness. Personally, I would have it be known that the overwhelming majority of people are damned to Hell and that heroic death is the only confirmed escape route/form of salvation/what have you. That way, there's some room for heroism amid the despair, rather than just desperate grief for innocents that a hero is ontologically incapable of saving. Although that is an interesting vibe for a setting. Perhaps the only true heroic sacrifice in the end is one done without thought for the future afterlife, only those the hero is saving.

>>95948690
>Not necessarily or else all the vikings irl would have been barred entry to Valhalla
And if we were talking about Valhalla, that would be relevant to the discussion.

>>95940857 (OP)
Simple mechanic to encourage heroic sacrifice without everyone rushing dumbly to their deaths.

When you make a decision to sacrifice yourself you get a +1 to your final roll (or -1 if it's a roll under system). Succeed or fail, you give +1 to your teammates to spend when they eventually sacrifice themselves. You are guaranteed to die, the GM contrives a reason why even your success wouldn't save you.

>>95940905
Go Viking mode, living to old age is a sign of cowardice so you find bigger and meaner opponents until eventually you find a battle to die in with honour. Or Spartans if you want more structured military and gay sex.

Tell me more

>>95940857 (OP)
>the entire world is rotting, and everyone who dies goes to Hell to suffer forever. The only way out is to die heroically so you go to Heaven, to escape Hell's grasp.
I just realized that's practically the philosophy of Vampire the Masquerade, especially in one of the end times scenarios.