Why does alignment in D&D cause such a conniption these days? it's still an important aspect of running the system.

>>95954312 (OP)
because it's a retarded sacred cow

>>95954312 (OP)
Because this topic is a dead horse. Everyone has said anything there is to say about it. Can you just move on and stop making these same boring threads over and over again?

>>95954312 (OP)
I dunno. I've always found it appealing.

Retarded or bait? Call it

>>95954312 (OP)
>it's still an important aspect of running the system.
No, it really isn't. It isn't even referenced in the rules any more.

>>95954329
>sacred cow
fake and gay

>>95954347
the last one I participated in was great, we told you faggots who dislike the alignment system why it works and where to shove it

>>95954494
it's in 5e, and if it's not in 2024 it's because you should already know how to use it it's so intuitive.

>>95954312 (OP)
Are you posting from 1999?
>>95954630
It's in 5e as a thing you put on your character sheet. It doesn't matter, no rules reference it, it means less than nothing.

>>95954702
it means a lot for Paladin, and it can mean anything the DM says too. there's entire dimensions where it matters. it informs what characters are capable of choosing. it penalizes players who roleplay poorly. take your pick

>>95954702
alignment is referenced and has its own section in chapter 3 of the 2024 dmg.

>>95954630
If it's entirely possible to run the system rules as written without it ever coming up, it is in fact not "an important aspect of running the system".

>>95954731
>it means a lot for Paladin
It matters not at all for Paladin. The class requires that you hold to the tenets of your oath, but has no alignment-based restrictions.
>it informs what characters are capable of choosing.
Alignment has always been descriptive, not prescriptive. It has never determined what choices characters are capable of making.
>it penalizes players who roleplay poorly.
There are no rules by which alignment penalizes anything in 5e.

>>95954312 (OP)
Nerds of today are genuinely unpleasant people who have been brainrotted by kultmarx conditioning or are actual pieces of shit depressed edgelords that want to spoil nice things. D&D alignment belongs to a simpler, nobler nerd scene that doesn't exist anymore.

There's no point debating the merits or nuances of the alignment chart, nor trying to implement it in contemporary games. The majority of players don't want it, and those who do usually lack the intelligence and talent to properly RP alignments anyways. Just let it die, you're swimming against an insurmountable tide of mediocrity and stagnation and subversion for subversions sake.

>>95954312 (OP)
As a person who always had bad opinions about the system because I found the Humanity system superior in VtM, after playing AD&D as a Paladin I never had issues playing with it and around it.
If you know how to roleplay and get in character the system adds a lot more than what it actually takes.

>>95954627
I dont dislike alignment. I think its great. It's just fucking boring seeing the same arguments for and against over and over again. Everything that is to be said has been said a thousand times already. Fucking move on already.

>>95954781
>It has never determined what choices characters are capable of making.
enjoy the penalties

>>95954863
>>>95954312 (OP) (OP)
>Nerds of today are genuinely unpleasant people who have been brainrotted by kultmarx conditioning or are actual pieces of shit depressed edgelords that want to spoil nice things. D&D alignment belongs to a simpler, nobler nerd scene that doesn't exist anymore.
>There's no point debating the merits or nuances of the alignment chart, nor trying to implement it in contemporary games. The majority of players don't want it, and those who do usually lack the intelligence and talent to properly RP alignments anyways. Just let it die, you're swimming against an insurmountable tide of mediocrity and stagnation and subversion for subversions sake.
I think true neutral and chaotic neutral are flip flopped

>>95954312 (OP)
Simply put. People don't get the point of Chaotic and Order/Lawful as they don't read Moorcock. So they take chaotic nature as "quirky" and just being "different." Hints why in my games I made it Alignment system 5 by 5 With Moral and Vile and Social and Rebel.

>>95955086
Want to explain your system more?

>>95955086
>they don't read Moorcock
Good for them.

>>95954863
Alignment arguments have existed since the 9-grid was originally written. This endless jacking off of the past is fucking delusional.

>>95954329
FPBP. Alignment has never been a useful mechanic nor has it ever been good for roleplaying. It's reductive and boils the vast spectrum of morality down into nine exaggerated, cartoonish sterotypes. Only political extremist faggots who deserve the rope and railroading faggot GMs use alignment.

>>95954312 (OP)
>Why does alignment in D&D cause such a conniption these days?
I dunno, must be some deficiency of your brain specifically.

>>95954757
But nobody reads the DMG, especially not the trolls.

>>95955223
It's useful for high fantasy high level planar adventures, and it only influences roleplaying of retards who don't get how it works. Majority of d&d players are retards who don't get how it works so it was phased out of the mechanics in 5e.

The only good thing that came out of alignment was the Great Wheel cosmology.

>>95955372
It works by restricting what your characters are capable of doing to cartoonish stereotypes
>B-BUT ITS DESCRIPTIVE NOT PRESCRIPTIVE
Then it doesn't need to exist because it serves no purpose. I don't need a limited box of 9 options to tell me how to play my character as a player, and I don't need only 9 restrictive options to decide how the world reacts to player choice as a GM. The Alignment Chart is peak railroading.

Alsignment is gay, trauma tracks are superior at fleshing out what your character would do and no, I won't elaborate.

>>95955437
Its faction play on a cosmological level numbnuts.
Your characters alignment is meant to be an allegiance to the ideas and factions of universal forces than a personality quiz.
You suck the order lord's crystal dicks and follow their ideals to make the world more orderly and be rewarded by them, or you eat the chaos lords hairy assholes and follow their ideals to make the world more chaotic and be rewarded by them.

I like alignment because:
1) I still play 3.5e. Alignment can be inserted as triggering mechanism for various spells, altars, traps, monsters, etc..
2) It's a good filter for bad players. If you cannot understand objective good and evil in a world where literal angels and demons exist, I don't want you anywhere near me.

>>95955372
>It's useful for high fantasy high level planar adventures
As far as I can tell that's something almost no one ever does.
So it's useless at best, and confusing for retards (ie most players).

>>95954312 (OP)
DnD fans are retarded, next question.

>>95954897
Got to fill the board with something, otherwise casuals will move onto another and never see the adverts.

>>95955517
Hang on a sec, by gay do you mean bad, or good, or happy? Try to expand your vocabulary and put more thought into your answers anon, just using meme answers make you sound like a retard.

>>95954312 (OP)
The hobby experienced strong immigration of people who dislike idea of objective morality because they either reject existence of omniscient arbiter who makes the call and/or are afraid that any such classification would call them out as evil.

>>95954312 (OP)
Cause the amount of people who try to game the system by acting like horrible antisocial monsters but claiming they're "chaotic neutral cause [x]" is an active detriment to enjoying the game

>>95956597
I definitely reject the any idea of any nerd writing RPGs as the omniscient arbiter of morality. I think you have it backwards, though. Someone who believes in objective morality that applies both to real life and to game settings doesn't need alignment, he can just, you know, make moral judgements Someone who views objective morality is a weird and exotic fantasy concept he can't quite wrap his head around might actually benefit from having the game explain to him what counts as good and what as evil.

>>95955984
Posts like this make you sound like an autist, which is also a severe mental disability.

I guess it takes one to know one eh Mr. Sperg?

>>95956873
>Posts like this make you sound like an autist
>it takes one to know one eh Mr. Sperg?
I'm not quite sure if that's a severe self burn or a proud declaration by an unashamed autist.

>>95955178
>argumentative midwits have existed since the dawn of time

WhooaaaAAH?

>>95954312 (OP)
>these days?
It never didn't cause conniptions, chiefly as a result of people learning that they aren't Good according to D&D and throwing a hissyfit over that fact.

>>95954702
>no rules reference it
Right off the top of my head there's the Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness artifacts, as well as the Talismans of Ultimate Good and Evil.

>>95956850
>having the game explain to him what counts as good and what as evil
Admittedly I've only glanced at the relevant parts of old D&D, but as far as I can tell they never did all that much explaining what counts as what. Just a couple of examples.

Paladins not needing to be LG anymore really shows the disconnect between oldfags and newfags within the D&D sphere.

>>95957365
They did, twice, in 3rd edition. The Book of Exalted Deeds explains Good in the context of D&D, and the Book of Vile Darkness explains Evil.

>>95954457
Yet I bet this thread will hit 300 replies.

>>95954312 (OP)
Because it's not an important aspect of running the system nowadays, alignment can be removed entirely with no issue

>>95957157
>Replies to a post talking about 5e, which itself is a reply to a post talking about 5e
>Brings up books from 3e.

You're not very bright.

>>95954312 (OP)
No one is saying that it isn't important. They're saying that it isn't good.

>>95954312 (OP)
>it's still an important aspect of running the system
it was never good for anything other than pointless discussions and memes
>hurr I need alignment to know that angels will oppose demons
just state which factions exist in your game and which one your characters/NPCs are loyal to.
saying "all green eyed talking turds are chaotic neutral!!1" is just begging for some special dm/player to create a lawful good green eyed talking turd.

>>95957157
So, in the 11 years 5e has existed, there are 4 rare magic items that interact with alignment.

>>95957365
In old D&D alignment is not really moral. It's the side taken in an implied background conflict that was mostly stolen from Anderson and Moorcock.

>>95954312 (OP)
Because people are retards who go all the wrong way. They dont go

>my character is overall caring and noble, but also arrogant and hyporitical with a dismissive streak against those he holds cultural and personal prejeduces and resentments against

They go
>alright, im Lawful Good, so my Alignment Robot of a character must act X and Y and Z way

Or you get the classic autistic
> "Oh, you´re ALIGNMENT X"? Well, you acted in way Y, so you´re actually totally wrong, you shouldnt do that!

>>95954312 (OP)
Because so many people just use the alignment system as an excuse to act like an asshole and an idiot at the table.
>I'm Lawful good, but to the evil emperor so its ok for me to do evil
>I'm Lawful neutral, so I do whatever people tell me to no matter what
>I'm Lawful evil, so my first law is that I don't have to follow laws
>I don't actually have any negative experiences with neutral good players
>I'm True Neutral, so I don't care about anything
>I'm Neutral evil, so I am going to actually act chaotic evil
>I'm Chaotic good, so I am going to murder somebody who is being slightly rude
>I'm Chaotic neutral, I'm going to burn down the orphanage but offset it by taking care of my pet cat so I'm not really evil, just crazy
>I'm Chaotic evil but I'm actually going to be playing as neutral evil because I don't want people to think I'm being too evil

>>95954618
D&D is a brand, and the brand needs alignments.

>>95954863
Pretty much this. Modern "nerds" either take it to its logical extremes or as I mentioned just use it as an excuse to act like assholes while still being "good" or "its what my character would do.


>>95955517
I like the idea but that is a lot of tracks to keep note of. I would rather just deal with VtM personalities.

>>95957861
Fundamentally it's a cosmic war, but the main way your alignment is determined is by behaviour, particularly in moral terms.

>>95958246
>cosmic war
but this is irrelevant to nearly all campaigns, so it's retarded to keep it as an important aspect of every single player character and NPC.
Playing a grimdark mudcore edgy campaign? If everyone's morally gray or evil then having some kingdom's ruler be "lawful evil" and the neighboring kingdom's ruler also be "lawful evil" tells you almost nothing useful about whether they're going to fight each other, cooperate, or do the whole "cooperating and then betray" shit.
Playing a fagcore coffeshop tiefling campaign? Everyone's some brand of chaotic good or chaotic "neutral", but it doesn't matter because problems are solved through sucking dick and hormone replacement therapy.

>>95958306
Your right it doesn't matter in mudcore or coffee shop games, but in a classic fantasy campaign that the system was designed for?
The asshole Wizard makes deals with chaotic evil demons to gain knowledge and even binds one to his service via binding magic.
The moral Cleric can use their knowledge of religious doctrine to find the location of a magic sword forged by the forces of lawful good in ages past that can calm chaos and send demons back the abyss.
Likewise there is a magic belt that can negate the powers of other mystical entities for a time but it is held by a otherworldly keeper that will only give it to one that upholds a balance between these desperate forces.
In that you have the bones of a classic adventure.

Also i like how you imply that those two types of campaigns are the only ones that people play, you should try and get a better circle of people to play with.

>>95954312 (OP)
Because nu-fags watched Game of Thrones one day and thought to be some literate geniouses if they remove the idea of making hordes of raping murderers into victims and armies trying to contain tgis into some faux allegory for their political fetishes

Medias breeded these so they can sell grey, tasteless products to brains who can only think through TV Tropes

>>95954329
Example #1

i cant think of a single time alignments improved a gaming experience for me

>>95958927
Now just change your first two examples to
>The asshole Wizard makes deals with demons to gain knowledge and even binds one to his service via binding magic.
>The moral Cleric can use their knowledge of religious doctrine to find the location of a magic sword forged in ages past that can calm chaos and send demons back the abyss.
And the stories still work perfectly well.
>Likewise there is a magic belt that can negate the powers of other mystical entities for a time but it is held by a otherworldly keeper that will only give it to one that upholds a balance between these desperate forces.
And that's a fucking dumb artificial premise: be good but not too good? kind of follow laws but not too much? Just giving the belt to someone who proves themselves worthy makes a lot more sense narratively.

>Also i like how you imply that those two types of campaigns are the only ones that people play
no, I didn't do that, you autistic retard
then again it makes sense that a fag who likes alignments needs everything (even campaigns) to fit into tiny mindless restrictive little categories.

>>95959042
Obviously, you'd first need to have some gaming experience.

>>95958927
Absolutely none of that requires alignment.

>>95959092
Technically no, but for the purposes of a game (or a series of pulp short stories) anything similar is either going to be the same as alignment in purpose and presentation, or its going to be something that presents a different type of fantasy stylistically.

>>95959047
The last one works when the universal forces will eventually turn the universe into stagnant eternal crystal or a formless churning mass if they gain to much authority.
And by starting off with
>but this is irrelevant to nearly all campaigns
And then using midcore and Coffee shop as your only two examples your presenting a generalized view of the hobby in which those are the primary ways to play.
So ill say my bad for using
>are the only ones that people play
In response that was me being hyperbolic and detracting from the main point of you needing to broaden your social horizons if from your perspective those two kinds games make up the vast majority of games people play.

>>95954312 (OP)
Even in it's limited capacity as something that would matter for divine magic and planar bullshit there is little to zero actual use for it

>>95954312 (OP)
You don't create your character on the character sheet, you create the concept of them and give them gear and spells and whatever. You have to play the character for them to say and do things that have any lasting impact and anyone who can't grasp this has preconceptions about D&D that come from Critical Role or something equally/more cringe. Alignment is a great filter for these players because they will immediately latch on to the idea that alignment DECIDES WHO THEY ARE as if their fanfiction backstory fucking matters or fleshes out their dynamic with the world and the other player character. You instantly know what you're dealing with. Alignment should be a thing you become, not a thing you choose, unless the DM wants to run a campaign that emphasises it in some way.

>>95959796
>The last one works
Yeah it does but it's stupid as a reason to justify keeping the alignment system in. Might as well include Anal Circumference in case it's relevant when one of your characters gets in prison and wants to smuggle items in their ass.

>if from your perspective those two kinds games make up the vast majority of games people play.
You're still being an autistic retard.
The two examples were just intended as radical different groups and settings where the alignment system is equally shit for different reasons.
Plus the chain of comments was about how the alignments were relevant for cosmic war frameworks. Dealing with cosmic level shit is way less relevant that just establishing which factions are allied and which ones are enemies, and which faction is a character loyal to.

>>95960213
>Alignment should be a thing you become, not a thing you choose
But for what? What is even the point of having the DM fill out personality tests for the characters?
Just having the characters' in game actions have consequences (positive ones too, not only "punishing murderhobos") it'll be clear if they're good or bad people and how their values fit in the world.

>>95960323
That's fair, I honestly just didn't interpret it that way and Instead read like you were dismissing Cosmological based campaigns and ideals by saying those two ways of paying were the main ways people play.

>>95954312 (OP)
Those it bothers can't RP, they have to plot stories and/or self-insert. They are the same types that can't grasp that some races/monsters are meant to be one alignment inherently. These players always have sociopathic traits. Like the grifting phonies at Critical Role, their sheet might say Good, but they always RP CN at best.

>>95954312 (OP)
Alignment doesn't understand nuance by design.
People don't understand that.

>>95954312 (OP)
>>95961350
>Alignment doesn't understand nuance by design.
>nuance
More often than not nuance is bullshit.

Just have the 4e system but add Chaotic and Lawful alignments.
>Lawful Good, Good, Lawful, Unaligned, Chaotic, Evil, Chaotic Evil

>>95957387
Same with shit like Barbarians can read and Druids being able to wear metal armor. All the old flavor is dead and buried. Classes may as well not exist. No one wants to roleplay anymore, they want to rollplay, and all character creation is just vidya tier where all you care about are optimizing mechanics for your build. No one picks Warlock because they like the idea of being a Faustian deal making evil power seeker who took the easy route, they take it because Eldritch Blast is force damage that bypasses most resistances and can be optimized to do 2d10 damage+push back at low levels.

As I already malded about earlier, the alignment system was a product of a different class of nerds, the hybrid theater kid/military history/adventure geek that liked fantasy before anime and vidya existed and wanted to collaborate and share a worldbuilding adventure with other like-minded friends. It's no wonder it's reviled by the nitwit emotionally stunted narcissistic (sorry "main character syndrome") amoral post 2005 nerds who came into the hobby through Warcraft and ReZero. The alignment system is a solid hard "No!" to their bullshit, and this is a generation that can't handle being told they can't have everything they want.

I think cut out the shades and keep the interesting alignments.
>Chaotic neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Good

>>95954312 (OP)
Only law vs chaos matters. Lawful evil and good have more in common than chaotic evil and good. Does a crooked lawyer have anything in common with a gangbanger? Hell no.
Any character showing signs of mental illness is automatically evil. Anyone with less than 10 CHA is also evil by default. Society deems anyone out of the machine as wicked.

>>95961665
>the alignment system was a product of a different class of nerds, the hybrid theater kid/military history/adventure geek that liked fantasy before anime and vidya existed

I'd like to point out that fantasy anime and vidya was created by those very geeks. It was those that followed who wanted to deconstruct things like alignment.

>>95961804
>Does a crooked lawyer have anything in common with a gangbanger?

The crooked lawyer is the lawful evil guy who hires neutral evil gangbangers to intimidate witnesses so that the case against his chaotic evil sociopath client falls apart.

>>95954312 (OP)
>dragged forward, but all the logic and reasoning behind it was left with previous editions
>mechanics tied to alignment were dropped too
>lack of understanding, context, or intent leads to people creating retarded bastardized memes about how you're supposed to interpret it
>modern fiction and media has become incredibly hostile and cynical about the idea that any sort of objective morality or justice can exist so normalfags are prone to jumping to the least charitable interpretation of the chart and its use.

>>95961665
>Same with shit like Barbarians can read and Druids being able to wear metal armor. All the old flavor is dead and buried. Classes may as well not exist. No one wants to roleplay anymore, they want to rollplay,
People no longer give a shit about the lore when the games don't really give them a reason to do so and the touchstones that explained that shit are no longer relevant after 40 years.
Why would someone bother with enforcing the class limitations when they feel so meaningless?

>>95954457
No reason it can't be both.

>>95962166
Because they reinforce a level of distinct character to the classes on a mechanical level in of themselves. Which matters if one is willing to buy into the fantasy being presented instead of imposing their own.
The barbarian issue matters if any reading is involved in a campaign, and Druids being limited in the armor they wear is locking them out of an entire category of equipment and any solutions that could require such equipment.

Like I get it if you started playing in a post-3e environment with a thousand alternative ways to work around limitations to the point they become meaningless if they still exist at your table at all. But despite D&D (which based upon the talk of alignment is clearly what the thread is about)being the default from the start of TTRPGs to now the mechanical impositions based around things like class and alignment help to reestablish a unique mechanical personality that the game has lacked for years.
On other words D&D is better with more mechanical impositions and detail both limiting and shaping the game, for its own sake as a unique game instead of the amorphous thing it has become.

>ITT people do not understand that alignment exists to inform the GM about what your pc is about at a glance, first and foremost, and anything that concerns itself with rp is a distant, usually meaningless, second
The 'alignment argument' is floated on the smooth sailing brains of nogames idiots that spend their time reading the books and fantasizing about the game they will never play.

>>95962088
well, I mean I guess I am judgmental and aggravated OK

>>95961665
>Same with shit like Barbarians can read
They should be able too. Why shouldn't they? Barbarians are based off of Conan, an extremely clever man, who was well read and mentally sharp. Just because a Barbarian harnesses their rage to strengthen themselves, doesn't mean that they're incapable of reading.

>>95962541
>ITT people do not understand that alignment exists to inform the GM about what your pc is about at a glance
yeah but it's worthless as fuck for that

>>95962697
D&D Barbarians aren't based off Conan how your thinking.
They are based around Gary thinking Conan was to good at everything and making what in his mind was a "fixed" Barbarian.
They also got extra EXP by breaking magic items.

>>95962701
>it's worthless as fuck for that
Only if the player decides to break the social contract and disregard what they wrote down.
So now you are openly lying to the GM to achieve... what? To be a contrary ass at the table due to your social maladaption?

>>95962697
>>95962702
Both wrong, if anything, barbarians were based on the Picts of Hyboria; Conan the character was actually stated out as a demigod in the Deities and Demigods book as a Fighter/Thief.

>>95962702
frankly, Conan was a bit of a Mary Sue, it tries to look grounded, but Howard's power fantasy just seeps through

>>95962819
>frankly, Conan was a bit of a Mary Sue
He's no more of a Mary Sue then Achilles or Hercules were to be fair.

>>95962806
>Only if the player decides to break the social contract and disregard what they wrote down.
no, even if the player follows the alignment fully it's still worthless as fuck

>>95962827
That is an opinion, one I generally disagree with.
As a GM, it allows me to filter retards and edgelords from my games when I don't want them, and offers an invitation to them when I run a game for them.
Use the tools in your belt.

>>95962835
>As a GM, it allows me to filter retards and edgelords from my games
how does alignment help you achieve this?
without alignment, you can just have them describe their character a bit.
With alignment, they might send you "good" alignments and then still act like edgy psychopaths,

>>95962825
Achilles was powerful and favored by (some) gods but also deeply flawed, which eventually caused his undoing.
Hercules/Heracles is undeniably a Mary Sue.

>>95954312 (OP)
Not really. Protection from Good and Evil just specifies particular creatures, all alignment really applies to are specific magic items now.

>>95962848
>how does alignment help you achieve this?
I say 'I am running a good guy game, so Good aligned pcs generally, Neutral characters case by case, no Evil pcs'.
That will immediately cause most edgelords and shitheads to pass on your game, because they are not looking for that.
>you can just have them describe their character a bit
Run some games yourself, anon; the filtering process has many layers, but that doesn't mean everyone gets equal attention. The real goal is to have the trash take itself out, not take it to the dumpster with my own hands.
>then still act like edgy psychopaths
>lying to the GM
I'm happy you agree that shithead players need to be filtered, because lying to your GM is similar to lying about your dice rolls, and I have found those, too.

>>95962853
>Mary Sue
No, he's a male character so he's a based power fantasy.
Only female characters are cringe Mary Sues.

>>95962853
>Hercules/Heracles is undeniably a Mary Sue.
>outrageous temper repeatedly caused him problems, offended the gods multiple times, made him murder his own family like Chris Benoit, and end up dying in a fight he was never supposed to be in
Mary Sue indeed.

>>95962853
Nah, Heracles might be omnitalented but he was also an angry, impulsive retard that frequently killed innocent people from the start of his life where he beat his music teacher to death with a lyre to one of his final acts as a mortal being drowning his servant for giving him a robe from his wife that a satyr had laced with hydra poison, something he had no part in.

>>95962875
In context of culture he comes from these are positive manly qualities.

>>95962867
>I say 'I am running a good guy game, so Good aligned pcs generally, Neutral characters case by case, no Evil pcs'.
You can just say 'I am running a good guy game, so evil and morally questionable characters will not be accepted' and that does the same level of "have the trash take itself out".
Plus even in your example you only engaged with good vs evil axis as opposed to the actual major retardation of the alignment system which is including also the lawful vs chaotic axis.

>>95962875
>offended the gods multiple times
Come on, it's greek gods. They get offended more easily than modern day leftists.

>>95962901
>Come on, it's greek gods. They get offended more easily than modern day leftists.
This. What happened to Medusa was really fucking disturbing. She was a pious priestess of Athena renowned for her beauty and kindness. She got so much attention from men that even Athena got jealous. So, when Poseidon raped Medusa in Athena's temple because of her beauty, Athena punished MEDUSA not Poseidon, because Medusa had "sex" in her temple. So, Athena cursed Medusa to be a hideous monster that would turn anyone who looked at her to stone.

>>95962897
You asked why I find it useful as a GM, and I told you.
Everything you said here is about some nonsense from a worthless player's pov.
Idgaf how YOU use alignments, as long as you don't lie to me about your intentions and you act roughly in the manner that you asserted on your character sheet.
Stop being a nogames, anon, because you are taking this way too seriously, and from the wrong angle, to boot.

>>95962541
When I run games, I prefer just asking my players what kinds of characters they made. A descriptive one-sentence summary pretty much always tells more about a character than his alignment would.

>>95962867
"I'm running a good guy campaign so make good guys" carries the same meaning whether or not the game uses alignment.

>>95962936
>I bet you don't DM!
>I bet you don't even play games!
lmao pathetic
>Idgaf how YOU use alignments
I don't, because they're useless, plus the system I run the most lately is Savage Worlds which doesn't use alignments (and I've never thought anything along the lines of "including alignments would make this game better").
When running or playing games with alignment (really just d&d and clones) the experience has only even made shittier and immersion breaking whenever attempting to engage with alignment.

>>95962936
Do you realize that you got cornered and can't defend alignment as a useful system (since it's not), so instead you had to resort to attacking the other anon.

>>95962990
>the nogames is triggered when you point them out
If you actually ran your own game, then you would understand that trying to fingerwag at someone because they don't do it the same as you is a fool's errand.
Instead of asking the question and accepting my answer, you try to argue with me as though you are someone I need to heed.
You have a good night, anon, have 'fun' with your 'game'.

>>95963009
lol

>>95954312 (OP)
For the people who so vehemently defend alignment it would be nice if they give some examples of how they use it during their games and how it helps or improves gameplay.
Because so far all I got is "it's for like, these 3 items!" which in all fairness doesn't seem like much of a reason since you can still do that without using alignment as a mechanic.

>>95962848
>without alignment, you can just have them describe their character a bit.
Tried that, didn't work. Specifically I asked players to write down some beliefs and convictions of the character. They did and somehow managed to break most of them very first session, then got mad I didn't award any bonus XP for good roleplay.

>>95963501
I'm so sorry you have to play with clinically retarded people, but by this point you should have a stable group with non retarded players.

>>95963485
>For the people who so vehemently defend alignment it would be nice if they give some examples of how they use it during their games and how it helps or improves gameplay.

Well, the single best RP moment I ever had as a DM with a player involved an alignment shift, that just would not have impacted as well if not for the ability to take his sheet and change his alignment; a nice physical, real action to compliment the RP event.

This was back with a 3.PF game I was running. The character was a drunk Samurai ronin who was intended by the player to mostly be concerned about where to get his next drink and not really tied up in the concerns of others except when paid. But in fact over the course of a year-long campaign he'd continuously been self-sacrificing, pushing to do the right thing for the right reasons, charitable, kind, merciful, etc. The final "push" came at the end of the campaign when my Goddess of Conquest, Scrylia - who was backing the big bad of the campaign - offered all the Player Characters literally anything they wanted if they'd just go away and leave the bad guy to do his thing. No strings attached beyond that, sworn on her own divinity, etc. The samurai turned her down and specifically turned her down because it would be wrong to abandon all the people of the land he was trying to protect, and because the bad guy was a very bad guy who needed to be stopped from hurting others.

Thus, the shift to Lawful Good.

It was great because the player spent like fifteen out-of-character minutes wrestling with whether to take Scrylia up on her offer or not. The struggle was real. And it genuinely felt great to take his sheet and erase “Neutral” and replace it with “Good”, both because of how great it felt to have been keeping track of and noticing his character’s actions over the past year…

…and because the final boss was a Blackguard and thus had Smite Good.

>>95963501
sounds like those retards would be just as worthless as players if they had written alignments instead.

>>95963759
>over the course of a year-long campaign he'd continuously been self-sacrificing, pushing to do the right thing for the right reasons, charitable, kind, merciful, etc
so, it was retarded and pointless to write his alignment as neutral to begin with

>>95963799
Or, how he intended to play his character ended up being different from how he actually ran the character. Like a character in a movie or TV show who tries to come across as aloof or ambiguous but ultimately keeps doing the right thing when push comes to shove.

>>95963901
>how he intended to play his character ended up being different from how he actually ran the character.
true
>it was retarded and pointless to write his alignment as neutral to begin with
also true
It's just the positive twist on fags that write their characters as "good" or "neutral" aligned and then play psychopaths.
In all cases, writing an alignment to begin with was pointless.

>>95963799
>what is character growth
>what is becoming more than what you began as
This is your brain when you are a nogames.

>>95963901
>Like a character in a movie or TV show who tries to come across as aloof or ambiguous but ultimately keeps doing the right thing when push comes to shove.
Or like a character in a role-playing game who tries to come across as aloof or ambiguous but ultimately keeps doing the right thing when push comes to shove? I mean, I have seen characters change and grow just fine in games that don't use alignment.

>>95954312 (OP)
because people think you can be Lawful Good and homophobic

>>95963955
>what is character growth
>what is becoming more than what you began as
except the character never actually evolved, he was described as always being a good guy despite the "neutral" alignment
the whole thing would have worked just as smoothly without having the pointless alignments written out, plus it's yet another example of defending the alignment system yet only using the good vs evil axis as opposed to the entire retarded 9 little boxes

>>95963759
>Play a good aligned character the entire campaign
>Call it neutral
I dunno man, seems kinda' dumb

>>95954312 (OP)
GenZ can’t stand the idea of moral constraints, or anything outside of themselves.

>>95964134
Consider, however, people who are fine with Pendragon Virtues and Honor, or WoD's Humanity, or other similar systems, but don't find DnD-type alignment useful.

>>95964053
> the whole thing would have worked just as smoothly without having the pointless alignments written out

No, it wouldn’t. As I said, the ability to make an actual, mechanical change to the character sheet added to the RP moment by giving physical action and weight to it.

>>95964162
>Pendragon
No one plays it.
>WoD
No actual depth, just levels of less/more selfish asshole.
>don't find DnD-type alignment useful
Due to memes and ironically being too complicated for idiots.

>>95964162
> or WoD's Humanity
Humanity is hilarious because its intended purpose is provide a mechanical tracker of a Vampire’s slow descent from man to beast…but instead, in practice, what it does is give you a legitimate mechanical point at which you can look at your Storyteller and say “it’s what my character would do” when you resort to murderhoboism.

>>95962914
Athena also turned Arachne into a spider for being better at weaving than her. Honestly, Athena is kind of an evil bitch

>>95963785
Nah, they function well enough with D&D Alignments and even WoD Nature/Demeanor, but fall apart when given freedom.

>>95964169
except it was nonsense since the character was always good anyway,
Might as well just give the character a boon/edge/feat/magic item.

>>95964217
It wasn’t just Arachne being a better weaver. The tapestry she wove mocked not just Athena, but all the gods. She was a sore winner.

>>95964217
The Arachne story is roman rather than greek, being a way more recent addition to the lore.
But even then Athena as a goddess of wisdom was silly. Remember she also stirred massive shit together with Hera and Aphrodite over "who's the prettiest".

>>95964196
>>Pendragon
>No one plays it.
Sure they do. I've run it. The morality and personality mechanics in that game actually serve a purpose.

>Due to memes and ironically being too complicated for idiots.
No, because it's not useful. Like, pretty much every time people try to explain the use they've gotten out of alignment, they just describe things that'd work just as well without it. I'm not saying there aren't some edge cases when dealing with cosmic forces of Good, Evil, Law and Chaos where alignment can serve a purpose, but in most games it just doesn't add anything to just, you know, roleplaying your character and making moral judgements for yourself.

>>95964249
>I've run it
Doubt it.
Post book and gm notes with timestamp.
>it's not useful
Filtered idiot.
What, is this your 80th post in this thread?

>>95964227
>Anon’s theme song, played on loop in her head 24/7

https://youtube.com/watch?v=6p-lDYPR2P8&pp=ygUNTWF0ZXJpYWwgZ2lybA%3D%3D

Not all rewards should be material.

>>95964217
>>95964234
both the Arachne and the Medusa stories were written by Ovid, who was Roman and used the gods as a way to do social and political commentary rather than just transcribing folk mythology.
Arachne seemed to be fully his invention, while the Medusa story was mostly reframed to make Medusa more likable while shitting on Athena.

>>95964217
It was a matter of hubris, you wouldn't get it.

>>95964261
literally only one of the options was material lmao
you're beyond hopeless

>>95964257
>>I've run it
>Doubt it.
This is pretty standard for alignment debates, sadly: people who're for alignment just decide beforehand what people who dislike alignments are like and why they feel the way they do, and then proceed to completely ignore or refuse everything that doesn't fit that predetermined picture.

>Post book and gm notes with timestamp.
I don't think posting the pdf would prove much.

>Filtered idiot.
>What, is this your 80th post in this thread?
You sure are doing a good job explaining why you find alignments useful!

>>95964269
Medusa and the Gorgons as an archetype are way older than most of the Greek gods anyway-

>>95964270
Arachne's story was about challenging authority and said authority chimping out.
Sure, Arachne's actions were driven by hubris, but the images in her tapestry that infuriated Athena were deeds that the gods had actually done, not Arachne's inventions.

>>95964281
yes, but the specific tale of poor Medusa being a beautiful, gentle and smart priestess who was raped and unfairly cursed by Athena is more modern.

>>95964162
>Pendragon Virtues and Honor
this system was cool and thematic

>>95964134
you don't need to be GenZ to realize alignments are stupid, and it was Millennials and older generations who would see any "they're always good" or "they're always evil" creatures and choose to be extremely creative by making a good character from the evil culture or an evil character from the good culture. Or an evil version of the typically good culture, which is what Melniboneans were.

>>95964269
>Ovid, who was Roman and used the gods as a way to do social and political commentary rather than just transcribing folk mythology
Another proud human tradition every generation likes to pretend to be either a bold new move or one more fresh affront born of degenerate times.

>>95964277
They all provide material, tangible, immediate benefit to the player character. Boons include stuff like a bonus to Constitution or the ability to cast a spell at will; feats always carry hard mechanical benefits; I don’t know what you think Edge is but assuming you meant something like “advantage”, that’s still something with immediate mechanical benefit.

>>95964369
because you literally said you wanted a mechanical change.
>fag can only think in terms of extremely constrained little boxes
you can always give shit that comes with drawbacks if you want something thematic.
Treating the change from "lawful neutral" to "lawful good" as some great epic reward and character development moment is gay when the player could have as well just picked the "lawful good" alignment since the beginning and it'd even have been consistent with how he played the character.
The guy just went from supposed drunkard to hero and that's already character growth without the "alignment" ever mattering at all.

>>95964422
No, I said the ability to erase “neutral” and write in “good” on the character sheet added a lot of weight to the moment that wouldn’t have been there if all I’d done is just say “hey, Player…your character is pretty cool guy despite what you set out to play”

It’s shameful, the lack of reading comprehension in the world today.

>>95964453
>added a lot of weight
might as well just reprint the character sheet on fancy paper
>alignment is great and amazing because it IS!!1

>>95964471
I mean it’s better than that Humanity nonsense over in Vampire which, like I pointed out, accomplishes. I thing except to give a mechanical point at which your Storyteller can’t complain about you being a murderhobo.

>>95964488
idk I've never played Vampire

>>95964488
Humanity does have a mechanical impact; you look and act more inhuman the lower it gets. It also controls how early you wake up and how hard is to force yourself to be awake during the day. And if it gets low enough you lose your character.

>>95955843
>be rewarded by them
Name 5 games where this ever happens

>>95963759
It sounds like what you're saying is the *only* mechanical outcome of this was that the player was punished by the alignment system.

>>95964561
adversarial faggot dm didn't give a shit about the guy's alignment until he realized he could use it to make said PC weak against the final boss.

>>95964561
In the moment, sure, but if not for the fact that it happened right before the final boss of the campaign it would’ve also done stuff like opened up prestige class options, feat options, magic item options, etc.. However, that was not what made the moment great.

>>95964502
Yes, but “low enough” is 0. Default Human is 7. At merely Humanity 6, you are accepting of the fact that your plans might cause deaths even though you don’t intentionally plan for them. At Humanity 5, you are willing to have murder be a part of your plans. At Humanity 3-4, you’re willing to have murder BE your plan. And then at that point you’re unlikely to descend any further in practice assuming your Storyteller is actually reading the rules, because Humanity 1-2 require doing utterly heinous and inhuman acts. Humanity 1 is lower than people like Ed Gein or Jeffry Dahmer since it’s described as “only nominally sentient”; by this point you just cannot pass as human anymore. Actually reaching Humanity 0 with the rules as written should be nigh impossible for most players.

>>95964725
>However, that was not what made the moment great.
What made the moment great was the character moment, something that had absolutely nothing at all to do with a world on a character sheet.

>>95964731
he just wants to defend alignment no matter what
sure, it was more memorable to erase "neutral" and write "good" than the player standing his ground to A FUCKING GODDESS.

>>95964725
> Actually reaching Humanity 0 with the rules as written should be nigh impossible for most players.
Not really, I recommend reading the Storyteller's guide for that, but as you reach lower and lower you find those heinous acts less problematic. The Beast actually compels you to try and do it. Also read the Sabbat guides for that since achieving a path demands you to go Humanity zero beforehand and have the most comprehensible rules.

>>95964774
I'm sure he's sincere and it was memorable, but it still seem like a very niche case.

Liberal individualists hate the idea of inborn predispositions because it means they aren't totally in control of themselves. It's all about control. Between performative anti-essentialism and rape, torture and murder there exists only a difference of degrees.

>>95964860
No, the reasons people have for disliking alignment, or rather for feeling it unnecessary, actually are just the reasons people have given in this thread and in every thread we've ever had on this subject. It's weird as fuck how people feel the need to make up pretentiously pseudointellectual pop psychology explanations instead of just listening when people explain why they don't like alignment. Also your theory fails to explain people who are fine with Pendragon but dislike DnD's alignments.

>>95964786
I’ve read them (in multiple editions) and I stand by what I say: it’s relatively easy to go down as far as Humanity 3 but difficult to reach Humanity 2-1, and next to impossible to actually reach 0, with the rules as written.

Which is a secondary point anyway; the main one is that Humanity backfired as a mechanic. Its intent was to showcase the slow degradation of the soul. In practice I’ve only ever seen it used as a mechanical tracker of whether or not murder is on the table for a given scheme.

>>95964987
Not my experience at all, but I know there's people out there that just play VtM as GTA Vampire edition so...

>>95954312 (OP)
Because "Good" and "Evil" trigger the reactionaries of all stripes.

>>95964774
I'm reminded of a dude on here who was arguing that Joseph Campbell's Hero of a Thousand Faces was literally the single most important book a GM could read to learn how to game prep. He broke down his prep, which has absolutely nothing to do with Campbell, but was absolutely adamant that reading a 60 year old huckster book was somehow vitally important to his process. People get weirdly attached to shit that is totally orthogonal to things they love.

Alignment only works in the confines of the original design, that typically being a very simplistic dungeon crawl. It fails with modern games because everyone wants these bigger, more complex interactions and stories which don't fit with it, because fundamentally the original use was more for gameplay mechanics and not real arguments on morality.

>>95965351
The original alignment was just Legal (most people) Neutral (outsiders) and Chaos (creatures that don't follow norms)

I like the way Pathfinder tackles alignments. Good and Evil are on a cosmic scale that measures how Altruistic and how Selfish you are. If you're an altruistic individual, then you're good. If you're a selfish individual, then you're bad. And if you are a mix of selfishness and altruism then you're neutral.
Evil individuals are so selfish that they're willing to fuck over, harm, and murder other people for their ambitions, while good individuals are righteous and will sacrifice their own personal happiness to do what's right.
A neutral individual would be a "normal" person. They're not some hero who will sacrifice themselves for a cause, but they're also not a villain who would kill someone for a tangible benefit. When given the choice to do either good or bad, the neutral character would prefer to be "good". But again, they're not going to do good if doing so is detrimental to themselves.
For the Law vs Chaos divide, Lawful individuals believe that orders, rules, religion, and societal customs and expectations are all required for a functioning society. Whereas a chaotic individual is more focused on doing what pleases their nature. Chaotic doesn't necessary mean someone who wantonly avoids all manner of law and order, it simply means someone who doesn't dogmatically / faithfully follow a set of ideals. Good, Neutral, and Evil temper how these individuals will go about enforcing their ideals on the world.

Literally makes so much sense from the historic autistic sense
GNE is just that
LNC is societal divides and had languages associated
L is empire/ 1st world
N reasonable free kingdom
C is barbarians/ 3rd world

>>95965645
You do know that "Barbarians" were all often just as advanced as the Romans, right? The Barbarians of Late Antiquity for example BTFO Rome using advanced military tactic. They also wore top of the line armor and implemented their own Roman-esque governance after taking power. So this meme that Barbarians were low iq retards needs to end. To Romans, basically everyone who wasn't natively roman, was a Barbarian.

>>95965544
even Pathfinder got rid of alignments anyway

>>95965351
>Alignment only works in the confines of the original design, that typically being a very simplistic dungeon crawl.
but even then you're better served by using only one axis instead of two.

>>95954312 (OP)
>These days
lmao you have to be over 18 to post on 4chins boy.
>>95954863
Always knew I would end up lawful evil eventually.

>>95965673
plus romans did a lot of retarded and "barbaric" shit all the time anyway

>>95954863
lawful evil is good if you have cats that try playing with the roll

>>95954863
Offering tissues instead of toilet paper isn't Chaotic Evil.
Offering fresh mint scented tissues would be.

What good does a mechanic make if you forget it's there 90% of the time.

>>95965828
>What good does a mechanic make if you forget it's there 90% of the time.
No?
Paladins need to be lawful good or they lose their powers.
Clerics need to be one of their god's approved alignments or they lose their powers.
There are numerous spells that only work on certain alignments. Detect Evil, Blasphemy, Smite Evil, Arbitrament etc.

>>95965871
and all those mechanics sound like ass, where the paladin and the cleric's should be more specific to what their god/beliefs are actually about, and those spells are just gay shit that might only really makes sense in videogames due to their limitations.

>>95965828
I think that 10% of the time is the point
This thread can be summarized as one big Minimalist vs Maximalist argument in regards to RPG mechanics.
One side is saying "this is niche and its uses can be done via GM fiat so it has no reason to exist"
Versus the other side saying "There is mechanical and narrative value in this system during X situations that make them better so it deserves to exist".

Personally I find it better to keep it around in the rules since its harder for a newcomer to create ideas on their own than it is to learn to ignore them if its not needed. Which in this context means that its better to keep alignment around for the times that it being a codified thing is useful than to force the GM to make due without.
Because if there is one lesson to take from 5e its that not offering your GM/DMs a robust series of rules they can use if they choose just makes things harder on them for no reason.

>>95965912
It should just be optional rules as opposed to "core"/part of the games by default.
just like some people add mechanics for homebrewed classes, or for madness (as in other rpgs), or only allow certain races and not others.

How hard is it to make a character with a personality and roleplay that personality instead of following one of nine boxes of stereotypes?

>>95965966
Very, apparently.

>>95965966
you mean 6, because most games won't allow evil player characters anyway.

>>95965948
That I can agree with, the biggest thing lacking in so many modern RPGs is meaningful variant rules but their the perfect way to add back in optional depth while also appealing those who want a lighter experience with the core rules..
Really it comes down to giving the person running the game all the tools they could possibly need for when they need them.

>>95965966
Its a snag caused by the "Big Tent" nature of D&D thanks to it being the first.
Some people like to RP every encounter, others like to dungeon crawl, and then more people like run the game as a series of set pieces, while some enjoy trying to treat it as a merchant simulator and some people like one aspect stated mixed with the others among many other variables.
So alignment can be used to give character to player's PC's who want some but don't want to bother with creating a internally consistent figure on the spot.

>>95954312 (OP)
>it's still an important aspect of running the system.
How.
How does it actually effect the game mechanics.

>>95965871
Two of those are dumb, like, who would play a cleric and choose a god whose alignment doesn't already agree with? Unless you have some sort of plan, this sound very unlikely to ever pop up in any real game.
The spell thing has always created issues. I presume we're talking 3.5 here where I remember always having problems.

>>95966234
>who would play a cleric and choose a god whose alignment doesn't already agree with?
I guess the scenario is something such as picking a good god and then changing to evil alignment.
But even that feels dumb considering how most of the gods seem to work (where "their domain" is way more central to them than morals), and how old school games could even have cursed items or traps that change a character's alignment anyway.
Or even just changing alignment through actions: obviously sacrificing innocent children to power up a genocidal dictator is evil, but how evil do you actually need to be to go from good to neutral or from neutral to evil? shit is too dm fiat
even >>95963759 had a character be good through the entirety of a year long campaign but only had an alignment change before the last battle (where having good alignment fucked him up LMAO).

>>95965966
all characters fit into one of those boxes whether you believe it or not. choosing things outside your wheelhouse just shifts where you are located.

>>95966351
just having a character who's extremely kind and selfless towards everyone EXCEPT towards a specific individual or group they hate irrationally makes alignment awkward.

>>95965759
Single axis is retarded. It just ends up with everyone playing Lawful or Neutral while the most enemies are Chaotics that can be slaughtered with no repercussion.
And the Lawful PCs are usually the greatest murderhobos.

>>95954312 (OP)
pronouns work better for this
and they allow weird as fuck super special characters having unique pronoun rules

>>95966453
>It just ends up with everyone playing Lawful or Neutral while the most enemies are Chaotics that can be slaughtered with no repercussion.
And that is bad because...?

>>95966453
Single axis works the best for the choosing a cosmic side argument.
In that kind of system actions or personality matter less than what side in the great game you are pushing.

>>95966939
*individual actions

>>95966699
The baby orc massacre issue. Do a character lose his good alignment if it does it? Or does it loses if he doesn't want to do it? If a Paladin feels bad about killing a bunch of baby goblins does he fall? Or does he fall if he kills the babies? What does that mean for the character? Their society? For the game? Is it fun?

>>95966975
>Do a character lose his good alignment if it does
Depends on the system. Usually no, because Orcs are conceptually evil beings. If, however, there is nuance and a concept of redemption or a good orc, then it's an evil action.
IMO, it's always an evil action. But I've seen games where it would be a "good" option to slay them. Pathfinder Kingmaker comes to mind where the good option is to genocide the trolls, mites, and kobolds until they straight up don't exist in your kingdom anymore

>>95966389
how so? it's realistic.

>>95966975
>The baby orc massacre issue. Do a character lose his good alignment if it does it?
No, orcs are inherently chaotic. Also as a gm just don't put that scenario in game, it's by no means an inevitable problem to stumble upon. This is basically a non-issue
>Is it fun?
yeah, it is. Killing monsters is fun. If the monsters are all evil then there is no moral failing to be had for killing the, even as babies, especially if they were created by an evil god to be evil and enact his evil will. Morality is not relative in this setup

>>95967152
as in, what would be the alignment of such a character? It'd make no sense for them to remain as lawful or neutral good while being straight up chaotic evil but only towards the individual or group that triggers him.

>>95966975
You idiots always bring that shit up as if it's something you actually ever had to deal with in a game. If your DM creates the baby orc problem he is a retard because he thinks that's moral complexity

>>95967216
It makes perfect sense actually, because alignments are not restrictive and people have character flaws. You're just retarded

>>95967237
lmao way to make your trolling obvious

>>95967251
>can't fathom the idea that someone of a certain alignment can have personalitity traits that deviate from alignment and yet calls me a troll

Tell me you're a nogames without telling me you're a nogames. This shit has been adressed in stuff like 3e players handbook and likely before then too. You're genuinely just retarded

>>95967216
is a lawful good individual not someone who treats criminals like criminals? is a chaotic neutral individual not someone who takes actions that benefit themselves but slowly regresses a community?

I, and enlightened philosopher, sometimes enjoy systems with alignment and sometimes enjoy systems without it.

Jokes aside, the thing that always bothered me the most about alignment was Paladins being locked to Lawful Good and most DMs and players proceeding to play them in the most retarded ways possible that are not conductive to fun. Oaths and Vows are a much better system for Paladins.

>bait thread
>almost all replies whining about alignment being less popular are culture war slop posts about how the lasted generation of nerds has been indoctrinated by Marxism

>>95965892
>where the paladin [...] should be more specific to what their god/beliefs are actually about

Paladins only care about gods in 4th edition; no other edition has Paladins care.
As for beliefs, the Paladin *used to* have a set code that required them to be Lawful Good, among other things. Now anyone can be a paladin because people bitched enough about a bunch of cool powers being locked behind being a decent person.

Pazuzu fucking won, basically.

>>95967051
>Usually no
Uh...usually "yes", actually, if we're talking D&D alignments. I can't think of a single edition of D&D where killing baby orcs is compatible with being Good, and D&D has permitted orcs to be Good since at least 1988's The Orcs of Thar.

You're about to break out that nonsense Gygax forum post, let me stop you there. It was posted in 2005, twenty years after he quit TSR and ceased to have an opinion more important than any other DM's. He was Just Some Guy.

>>95968236
The problem at the root was making paladin a core class instead of just a fighter upgrade. When it was just a specific thing the fighter could do it makes sense to be as limited by oaths and alignment because the player is actively choosing their character do to that. But if you make an entire class that you just make everyone who wants to play that class play the same character.

>>95954329
FPBP

>>95962490
Absolutely correct. Doesn't matter though, this way of approaching RPGs is dying. Players will not stomach being told No anymore.

>>95968428
See if you can find any of the rare high-IQ blacks and Hispanics to join. Their parents still beat the shit out of them so they aren't spoiled they way most younger players are. Their families know that if they aren't vigorous in disciplining their children, white authorities will be.

>>95966975
Depends on the nature of the babies? Are they born as helpless little innocents (humans basically) that are then either corrupted by their orc parents, or can be converted to the path of good if raised properly, or do they pop out the womb as vicious little fuckers (Aliens), ready to fight, murder and kill from the start? You have to sort out what the nature of the babies are in your games before screaming "Muh killing babies is bad".

>>95969374
If we go by D&D setting terms while they are technically innocent they have an innately aggressive nature spurred on by their creator god.
However if raised into the faith of a god that can counter such innate aggression they can be normal. See the Ondontis and their worship of Eldath an Elvish god of Peace.
So if you just going to leave them alive then their going to grow up to become another generation of asshole raiders, if you take them and leave them in lawful and/or good civilization they will become an aggressive underclass, and if you are able to get them mass adopted by a church that is able to counter their gods influence then they can turn out fine.

So killing the Orc babies is more a matter of the resources available to the players than anything else.

>>95968428
The problem is not the "no" it's just that the reason for said no will feel rather hollow in D&D. If you want a more limited party composition play a game where that feels coherent.

>>95969427
That and you can just have the cleric to use divine intervention to send those souls to their patron or something equally nonsensical.

>>95965871
>Keeps pointing at mechanics that haven't been in the game in 20 years.

>>95969579
Because their vestiges are still there for marketing reasons.

>>95954312 (OP)
Abandon the alignment system

>>95968236
>god/beliefs
>god OR beliefs
plus the sentence was about both clerics and paladins since for both the deep and meaningful mechanics described were "change your alignment, lose your powers",

>>95967903
>not someone who treats criminals like criminals
the whole premise was that they're not criminals
>EXCEPT towards a specific individual or group they hate irrationally
>irrationally

>>95968271
Yes, one of THE creators of the game and idea of alignments and all explaining why it was done the way he did it and his view on it would be the same as any other DM. Doesn't matter if he still in the company or not, that's like saying if Stan and Steve saying Spider-man was always Peter Parker and he shouldn't be made gay, black, a chick, or whatever and Spider-Man isn't a "mantle" someone can just put on. I mean you're really pushing cause Stan and Steve don't work at Marvel anymore, it doesn't matter and making a gay trans in a wheelchair the new original Spider-man cause they made Peter Parker no longer canon cause of "reasons"

>>95966699
>And that is bad because...?
It's fucking boring and it's how every single OSR group ends up being constituted.

>>95954312 (OP)
>it's still an important aspect of running the system.
Lol no

>>95954329
Fpbp

>>95954312 (OP)
I will not pretend that alignment has much mechanical relevance these days, but I'm still partial to the concept. I think it's fun to think about and it can be a useful tool to DMs to help define the world, the factions in it, how they act, and how the players relate to them. Players jotting down a label on their character sheet is pretty much vestigial, but as a DM you can certainly keep in mind characters' motivations and actions, and where they subsequently stand in relation to the world. Alignment can be as big as you want it to be and your players don't even really need to be aware of it. Pre-empts all those arguments about
>IT'S WHAT MY ALIGNMENT WOULD DO
or
>THEY CAN'T DO THAT, THEY NEED TO FALL

>>95970358
>the whole premise was that they're not criminals
???
a cursory read makes it seem like you think good people can't be mean to bad people because subjective morality

>>95954863
>D&D alignment belongs to a simpler, nobler nerd scene that doesn't exist anymore.
You mean the ones that would send in stories to dragon magazine about their characters raping a women's PC because she tried to join their group?

>>95971271
I can't imagine any stories like that would have actually been published in Dragon, even back in the TSR days.

>>95970486
>Yes, one of THE creators of the game and idea of alignments and all explaining why it was done the way he did it and his view on it would be the same as any other DM

Twenty years after he walked away from the company AND the game had since switched companies? Yes. Gygax was Just Some Guy.

>that's like saying if Stan and Steve saying Spider-man was always Peter Parker and he shouldn't be made gay, black, a chick, or whatever and Spider-Man isn't a "mantle" someone can just put on
Setting aside the comedy of the fact that Stan actually directly supported the idea that Spider-Man was a mantle that could be picked up by someone else if needed, Stan Lee was also still actively involved with Marvel projects throughout his life even after leaving the company. He didn't walk away in a hissy fit after making bad business decisions, he remained an active part of Marvel's promotions and efforts and promoting his creations even once they were under new stewards, through good times and bad.

Stan was The Man for a reason. Gygax, by his own choices, turned himself into Just Some Guy who mostly spent the years of 1985 through 2008 bitching about D&D because he was no longer in control of it.

>>95971249
Where was it ever said that the character was prejudiced towards bad people?
>just having a character who's extremely kind and selfless towards everyone EXCEPT towards a specific individual or group they hate irrationally makes alignment awkward.
Dude might be a saint towards everyone but becomes a sadistic bastard towards people who are too tall or who practice a sport he hates.

>>95971392
So a psychopath?
Sounds like a pc that wouldn't be allowed at a table unless it was a beer and pretzels group.

>>95971392
>>95971441
I think what Anon is trying to say without saying it is that racists and bigots would have to be classified as evil even if they are generally nice in other areas of life

>>95971441
>Sounds like a pc
nobody said it had to be a pc, NPCs also get alignments

>>95971509
but just how racist or bigoted would you have to be so that it makes you evil, when the character is otherwise saintly and selfless towards everyone else?

>>95971509
I mean...yeah. How is that surprising? If you're willing to make someone suffer for something they didn't do or had no control over, then you're Evil.

>>95971392
is chaotic neutral really that awkward?

>>95967051
>>95967167
You still haven't rule on the opposite case, which is the Paladin feeling bad about doing such thing and sparing the orc children, does he lose his alignment then?
>>95967220
Is an exaggeration of something that does happen very often in play which is "I spare the orc/goblin/bandit and/or try to convince them to change their ways".

>>95971994
yes

>>95971605
so, even if the guy outright spends 12 hours a day saving people and sacrificing himself for others, but then sees 1 person he dislikes and pranks him rudely for no reason but without lasting consequences then he's evil?
or how saintly would he have to be to still have a good or neutral alignment while remaining an ass to this person/group?
and how much of a jerk does he need to be towards the person/group he hates for it to count as evil? because obviously murder for no reason is evil, but shit like using slurs towards them or spreading lies are still malicious, but are they enough on their own to instantly change an otherwise saintly guy's alignment to evil?

>>95974335
A harmless prank isn't really an evil act, so no, obviously not. You can be a good person and still have flaws or do bad things sometimes, though a paladin would obviously be expected to abide by their oath over any personal prejudices. Someone who isn't really good or evil would just be neutral.
It's easy to just decide alignments based on what feels right, trying to create retarded hypotheticals about increasingly absurd people in order to determine the exact cutoff is pointless.