What's preferable? Abilities unlocked through character progression or Abilities all available at character creation but you get them overtime during progression?

Characters that can actually fucking do shit once they're created.

There should be something to look forward to while your character becomes stronger.
All abilities being available at the start might work if the games are supposed to be short-lived, and the character is supposed to be already "finish" once you start playing.

>>95955874
>There should be something to look forward to
That is literally a distraction from the game. Play the character you have instead of thinking about who they might become. They can make progress by having goals they want to achieve.

>>95955872
This. This is the number one reason I quit playing D&D. It is so unbelievably retarded that I can make a character who's been a battlefield medic is whole life and only be 10% more likely to pass a Medicine check than someone who's never treated so much as a paper cut. (And fuck you if you're not play a Wisdom-based class, allow whom can bypass the Medicine check entirely with magic. Holy fuck, what dogshit game design.)

>>95955862 (OP)
You have it the wrong way around. Make it real life - they start at their peak potential at the age of 18-20, then slowly lose looks, sex appeal, strength, endurance and cognitive ability as they age. This way, they have to get everything they want to do done before they hit their 40s. If they survive to their 60s most will be ugly gibbering physical wrecks, just like in real life.

>>95955862 (OP)
>>95955872
Characters that need to learn how to shit after they're born.

>>95955893
Narrative progress and mechanical progress are not mutually exclusive.
Seeing how your character gets stronger and having it be reflected through mechanics, and yes, even just bigger numbers, is fun.

>>95955862 (OP)
I'm a roleplay fag. Regardless of the system, I tend to start and end games around mid-level without ever having any level ups. You can respec your character over time, you can even pick up some new abilities along the way, but fundamentally you're not going to become twice as strong or durable or magical or whatever over the course of a single adventure, especially if youre already competent and experienced. That whole D&D thing of suddenly learning new magic or sword techniques or whatever because you beat up some goblins is so immersion-shattering and unfathomable retarded beyond belief.

It also doesn't help that low-levels suck fucking ass in most systems. My group persuaded me to try Lancer awhile back, mech game with 20 something different mechs to pilot, but until you hit level 2 everyone is stuck in the same basic-ass starter mech basically playing the same build. What the fuck compels game designers to do boring shit like this? Your games should be fun from the start without requiring a dozen sessions of boring MMO shit first.

>>95955900
Wait...you made a lvl1 character with the background idea of him being an experienced battlefield medic?

>>95955968
Not that Anon, but in D&D 5e, even level 1 characters ate supposed to be paragon who are stronger and more competent than most people. It's not an unreasonable character idea given how the game itself presents its lore and describes player characters. The issue is that the game's actual mechanics don't match the fluff at all, so alot of newer players get confused and frustrated when they make characters who are supposed to be good at something and find out that all their ideas and build choices equate to... a small +2 Proficiency bonus on a d20 roll.

>>95955936
No one suggested they were mutually exclusive. Stop arguing against nonsense that no one suggested like a disingenuous faggot.
>[mechanical character progress] is fun
Sure, there's a basic satisfaction in that. But that doesn't mean it's necessary or has no negative effects. Nor do you really need a system for it because you can just give them skills and abilities as and when it would be appropriate for them to learn them. As opposed to a rigid system where every basket weaver learns the same basket styles in the same order at the same points in their career, which levelling systems tend towards.

>>95955968
Anon, this is LITERALLY one of the suggestions listed in the Soldier background in the PHB.

>>95955992
>>95956001
>5e
You fucking idiots. You disgust me and you deserve to be unhappy.

>>95955968
>DnD 5e to Martial Players: "Noooooo! You can't be good at medicine, smiting, or any other mundane trade! You're literally a nobody who just popped into existence 5 minutes ago!"

DnD 5e to Warlock: "Hey, I know you're level 1, but it's fine if you already have a pre-existing relationship with a demon lord, archfey, or fucking Cthulu."

Absolute dogshit game design.

>>95956010
5.5e or whatever they're calling it is no better.

>>95955992
>even level 1 characters ate supposed to be paragon
Where does it say that?
>who are stronger and more competent than most people.
Stronger than a commoner, which is why you don't have all 10s in abilities.
>a small +2 Proficiency bonus on a d20 roll.
With abilities, it's more likely +4 or +5 for the things you're good at.

>>95956021
D&D has been a caster circle-jerk. If you're playing a martial in 5e, you're either new, retarded, or a masochist. Sucking shit is the point of playing a martial.

>>95955995
This is a thread about mechanical progression, so I have no idea why you singled out my post to come with some weird narrative take instead of arguing with the OP in the first place (as you seem to have a problem with the idea of "rigid" mechanical progression in the first placer).
>Nor do you really need a system for it
So, it's free-form? Or "mother may I" bullshit?
>when it would be appropriate for them to learn them
This is easily justified via some minor roleplaying. Most players are aware that their character also exist in the actual game world, and the abilities, skills, knowledge, spells etc. need to come from somewhere. They will by themselves a book or state that they take some off-time to train something. It's not a problem.
The reason why most systems have some form of "rigid" progression baked into the character progression is so that players can grow organically alongside each other, and so that the GM can track their progress easier.

But sure, share with the class how your game deals with giving new abilities and skills based entirely on narrative progression. What are your experiences with that?

>>95956079
>This is a thread about mechanical progression
And I already told OP that it's a bad idea.
>So, it's free-form?
It depends on what you actually need. Which is usually nothing at all. But if you're desperate then you presumably already have a system for building characters, so just go back to that with looser restrictions.
>This is easily justified
Completely misses the point: justifying mechanics with narrative is backwards. If my class learns to use a new weapon at the next level, but the character has no interest in learning a new weapon, and is prevented from improving in anything else until he decides to take time out to learn it anyway, then your system is getting in the way. Or you can ask the GM to make an exception, but then we're back at "mother may I".
>The reason why most systems have some form of "rigid" progression
Lets not kid ourselves: the reason most games have these things is because D&D has them and people expect them.
>share with the class how your game deals with giving new abilities and skills
Again, I usually don't because I don't think it's desirable.

>>95956180
>Again, I usually don't because I don't think it's desirable
Alright, thanks for your valuable contribution to the thread, you sure enlightened all of us.

>>95955862 (OP)
Point-buy systems where you get points to spend as you level up will always be better than DnD trend-chasing slop where your progression is pre-determined. The latter does appeal to normie retards who can't learn a system or put effort into builds though, so it's hugely successful.

>>95955893
>That is literally a distraction from the game
Progression is an integral part of some games, tard

>>95956223
This. Just make sure there's enough things that a character would want to put points into than they can afford with starting exp so even a player focusing a narrow specialisation will still have room to grow.

>>95956223
You can have it both ways. Point buy with mini progression trees.

I'm sure most games have this implicitly, I mean it would be hard to use the advanced telekinetic flight ability if you don't already have the basic telekinesis one.

>>95956331
>Plays DnD
>Learns Major Illusion without ever learning Minor Illusion
>Learns Fly without ever learning Levitate
>Learns Fireball without ever learning Firebolt

Skill issue.

>>95955862 (OP)
This >>95955872. Everything that is possible for a human being to accomplish should be available right from the get go. It might have a low chance of success, or take more time, energy, or resources, depending on skill level, but it should be doable. No fucking needing a level in a specific class just to get permission to wipe your own fucking ass.
Unlocking new abilities is cool in video games. Locking them away doesn't work in TTRPGs because it stifles creativity and improvisation, so everyone is just staring as their character sheet to see what they can do and never open the rulebook or ask questions about their environment.
Of course, when it comes to extraordinary abilities like magic, super powers, cybernetics, etc., it's fine to totally lock some of those away for later progression. But the system should still have room for improvisation with the powers you do have. Like burning more spell energy to cast your firebolt spell faster or at a higher level, taking a spellcasting roll to reshape it into a line or cone rather than a spherical explosion, or tuning it down to light a candle or cigar. You shouldn't need a separate spell or metamagic for absolutely everything, or at least, to have permission to even try something different at a chance of failure or some extra cost.

>>95955900
Bounded accuracy doesn't even make it into my top 10 pet peeves with D&D 5E. I'm still absolutely fucking baffled that Medicine is a Wisdom skill, that Medicine doesn't actually allow you to heal HP, and that the Healer feat (one of the few rare instances of mundane nonmagical healing) has absolutely zero use for the Medicine skill.

>>95956545
>firebolt
mean to say
>fireball
but you get the point

>>95955911
For your sake, I hope you never turn 22.

>>95955954
Lancer has like 3 starter mechs now. The starting mech is also a top tier mech as eell

>>95955862 (OP)
I prefer having a small set of innate abilities based on race and class choices, with the option to learn more skills from those abilities or unlock other abilities as the character grows, with each path having its own incentive to choose, instead of just having the "one correct choice".

>>95956561
>I'm still absolutely fucking baffled that Medicine is a Wisdom skill
That's because Intelligence is only for pointless trivia and brainless memorization (which is how Wizard spellcasting works), knowledge that's actually useful is Wisdom.
All wizards MUST be utter retards. Goes double if they're elves.

Abilities being kept behind specific levels is worse than shit. 1-20, or whatever numbers, should be scrapped in their entirety, I would make tiers or ranks to simply the idea of how powerful you are in relation to the challenges you face. Tier 1 scenarios for a group of tier 1 characters, with certain level of skills or access to versions of those skills appropriate for the challenge while maintaining a complete package.

>>95959354
Ah yes, imagine being a new player and paying actual money on top of the handbook you just bought, just so levels 0-2 give you three whole options to work with instead of 1. God you people lack so much self-awareness that it's genuinely embarassing.

>>95956561
>I'm still absolutely fucking baffled that Medicine is a Wisdom skill
Skills with different abilities is a core rule in both the 2014 and 2024 rules. So literally a skill issue on your side.

>>95956545
>Everything that is possible for a human being to accomplish should be available right from the get go. It might have a low chance of success, or take more time, energy, or resources, depending on skill level, but it should be doable.
ANALYSIS PARALYSIS LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOOOOOOO!

>>95962648
I know of the rule. I've literally never once seen a DM use it, even when reminded of it.

>>95962622
It's all free in compcon

>>95955862 (OP)
You have a core set of abilities at start (depending on your race and class + random spell if a magic user + d6 point buy for thief skills capped at 5-in-6 + random combat feat if a fighter at lvl 1,5,10) but everything else beyond that is earned through interacting with the world.
want to learn a new spell? study a stroll or tome. want to raise your your weapon proficiency? time and money and training with someone. stats? find better or magical equipment. etc

>>95955862 (OP)
Point buy is better. And that pic is so pretty, I wish I could smell her.

>>95956561
>Medicine is a Wisdom skill,
Intelligence tells you what red blotches on the skin is a symptom of, wisdom tells you if it's plague.

>>95955968
A level 1 fighter in 1e was literally called a "veteran"

Gating abilities by level is bad unless it some powerful thing like magic

>>95955968
Even in the most old-school, mudcore editions of D&D, a PC is leagues above a normal character. In basic, a normal human had 1d4 hit points. A magic user had the same amount of health, but could also cast spells.

>>95955968
The folk hero background has it so that you were already instrumental in overthrowing some tyrannical noble.

>>95955862 (OP)
>what's better
>abilities unlocked through character progression
>or abilities unlocked through character progression
Did you mean to be retarded, or what? Because you described getting abilities as you progress in two different ways.

>>95968237
>A lord rescinded an unpopular decree after I led a symbolic act of protest against it.
The things that pass for a revolution in DR 1495...

>>95955872
FPBP.

>>95968610
I mean there are no abilities that locked at character creation but you can't get them all vs abilities only coming online at a later point only.

>>95955911
>cognitive ability as they age
I've learned a few useful things while getting old.

>>95955862 (OP)
No progression whatsoever apart from gear
But people go insane because they aren't getting their dings that way

>>95968196
More like could cast one spell and die horribly if it failed

>>95956223
Don't act like you are inherently better for liking point-buy systems. Point-buy systems are just as bad with balance as classed systems and are far more vulnerable to min/maxing and optimization.

>>95968610
I thought he meant having levels as pre-requisite for abilities or not, but he may just be retarded.

>>95975645
>no abilities that locked at character creation
You mean that you can get the best optimal abilities from the start? Because if there is a single ability you can't get from the start, it means that they ARE locked at character creation (by being impossible to meet pre-requisites, like being level 20, or having 20 other abilities when you can only get 3 at start), which means that they are abilities that are only coming online at a later point only.

>>95956068
really? I've had nothing but fun playing a battle master