Are short rests a mistake?

>>95992695 (OP)
Not a big of one as your mother's decision not to get an abortion

They may as well just make them "per encounter" the idea of sitting for 2 hours several time per adventuring day is pretty silly.

>>95992695 (OP)
Eh. Sure. They're one of the many decisions that make 5e such a slog. I'd say they're a far less impactful mistake than bonus actions.

>>95992763
>guy who's never played an RPG, let alone the popular game he's decided to dedicate his life to trolling about, opens his mouth yet again
You're just so tiresome.

Whether or not short rests are a mistake depends on how a given game handles their benefits, drawbacks, and functions.
Since you didn't specify a game, there isn't a more specific answer.
But make sure to cry about the fact that i asked "whar game" because you still don't understand that different games handle certain aspects differently, and likely never will understand that.

>>95992780
No idea what you think you're talking about, anon. But the last session I ran was on Sunday.

5E is made of mistakes. the rest mechanics are just one of them.
That is to say: yes

you can massage short rests into being acceptable by proper GMing:
>enforcing adventuring turns and random encounters
>building timers into your sessions which pressure the party into taking action
but the real problem is that players get tons of free shit from resting, so they never have a natural incentive not to rest

>>95992695 (OP)
Playing D&D 5e in 2020+5 is a mistake.

>>95992695 (OP)

I'm anti resting in general.

A dungeon crawl should be about managing your resources over multiple encounters and fighting intelligently. Sure it's always an option to go rest and recoup outside the dungeon but that should risk the denizens teaming up, resetting traps, fortifying etc or NPC adventurers beating you to the treasure.

>>95992867
>doesn't know jack shit about games

That "free shit" is intentional you weird tiny-dicked prick. They're molded out of 4e per-encounter concept, and the incentive isn't to encourage resting, the incentive is on the side of encouraging actually using abilities or otherwise having wasted the opportunity when you do take a short rest.

Calling resting a problem is so fucking dumb that it can only come out of the kind of pasty nerd that's completely forgotten what physical or challenging activities are like. Worse, you're arguing from the perspective of the kind of loser grognards that can't see the middle ground between tedious turn-tracking book-keeping and free-form play, so you need to shut the fuck up before I reach through the screen and punch you in the mouth.

>>95992980
>A dungeon crawl should be about managing your resources over multiple encounters and fighting intelligently.
When taken to the extreme, that's how you end up with slow, tedious, boring games that feel less like adventuring and more like accounting. Being anti-resting is firmly in the direction of the extreme.

>>95992980
Here's the secret. Nobody playing modern D&D gives even the slightest shit about "resource management". Most D&D players don't even know the basic rules. They're there to do retarded improv theater like in Shitical Role or whatever youtube slop is the face of the hobby now. None of them want to play an actual game, they want to narrate a story about how awsome their cringy deviantart OCs are.

On the bright side, thank god D&D exists to keep this cancer contained and out of all the rest of the hobby. D&D players are utterly incapable of ever playing anything else and filter themselves out of recruitment for real games pretty quickly.

>>95993005
Shut the fuck up. There's a middle ground you pretend you don't believe in because you're a sack of shit troll faggot.

Eat a dick and choke on it.

>>95993005
Wow, you really never get tired of being the worst poster on this board.

>>95993005
You would not believe the amount of caster players I have seen in D&D 5e who flatout openly admit that they don't track their spell slots, and they say it as if it's no big deal. The modern D&D audience fundamentally does not want to play the version of D&D presented in the actual rules, and WotC is fine with this.

>>95993005
>>95993030
>samefagging trolling nonsense

>>95992804
How many games do you know of that have a specific short rest mechanic?

>>95993041
Good games just use "per encounter" or "per scene" counts on abilities that are meant to limited.

That being said, there are ALOT of 5e clones out there, so I could name several games if I really had to.

>>95992980
>>95993005
>>95993030
This isn't even remotely true.

I'm actually concerned that you feel like you can just openly lie like this and not feel any shame about doing so. It's not even anywhere close to the truth, so much so that I think you're genuinely aiming for people to believe that the truth must exist somewhere between your hyperbolic lies and what anyone more reasonable would tell them.

You do this board a disservice with your propaganda.

>>95993035
>>95993028
>>95993013
would you mind using a trip code if you're going to spam threads like this?

>>95993050
I suppose the question then is if any of the clones handle short rests in a meaningfully different or better way

>>95992695 (OP)
Short rests are fine so long as you make long rests a very rare occurrence.

>>95993060
>"Your personal experiences aren't true. The way MY (imaginary) group is the way everyone plays!"

OK, retard.

>>95993060
It absolutely is, and you need to touch grass if you think otherwise. I tried having my friend and his wife in my group for over a year and literally every week I would have to explain to her how to roll and attack, she is somehow capable of becoming a nurse, but cannot figure out what her character sheet means, or remember how to do any of the most basic actions.

>>95993064
You mind just not posting at all? Total faggot.

>>95992780
>guy who has an iq of 105 thinks he has the power of deduction neccesary to infer anything at all about a poster.
You're just so tiresome.

>>95993074
>playing literally any game with the "partner dragged into it who clearly doesn't care"
And you're blaming the system. For fuck's sake.

>>95993060
It is entirely true.
Source: I am one of those players who constantly fudges my spell slots because being told I arbitrarily can't play my class or do any of the fun stuff my character is supposed to be able to do is not very fun at all.
It's not just me, almost everyone I have played with in multiple groups now fudges their resources, either because the book-keeping is tedious or because your character just arbitrarily not being allowed to have fun any more fucking sucks.

>>95993072
>my personal bias makes me retarded, and my contradictions of all the facts make me a liar
Yes.

>>95993074
That's just how women, particularly normalfag women, are. Bitches can't even play a boardgame without needing the rules re-explained every few minutes.

>>95993099
This isn't even a woman thing. I know several male players who literally cannot make a level 1 character unless I walk them through it step by step. (Despite the fact that player's handbook does literally just that.)

>>95993092
You are a weird minority, and likely your presences saps the energy out of anyone you play with.

Even just reading your post made me feel like you're more drain than person.

>>95993092
>Cheat in a game
>"It's okay because everyone does it!"
Classic

>>95993110
>Weird minority
You don't actually play 5e with other people very much, do you?

>>95993117
What's worse, the players who cheat because it makes the game more fun, or the players who never bother to actually learn the rules in the first place because it makes the game more fun.

In either case, it seems like the game design could use some improvement, to say the least.

>>95993126
How would you know, you've never actually played the game as intended.

>>95992980
How do you actually implement this in a way that players like? If I try to impose time pressure or restrict rests, my players just complain and ask for more adventures where they can "really cut loose" and "fight at full power". When they're not allowed to tackle encounters with full resources, they seem to lose alot of enthusiasm for what's happening, and make passive aggressive comments about just doing "basic bitch normal attacks". So either I deal with them not really enjoying the session, or I cave and let them rest frequently and chainsaw their way through encounters with a level of resources that the system was not designed to handle.

How do I get my players to accept more gritty resource-management gameplay?

>>95993092
Honestly I don't give a shit when players do this. The problem w/ 5e's combat is the resource micromanagement turns every round of combat into a slog as everyone tries to figure out how best to use which powers they have remaining to maximize their number of attacks and ensure they also capture their bonus action that fuckin' a. I don't even care. Just tell me what your character is doing and I could give two shits how many spell slots you've got left.

>>95993142
The funny part is, I guarantee I've played more than you, because I know how D&D 5e players actually behave at the table.

>>95992987
>That "free shit" is intentional you weird tiny-dicked prick
stopped reading here. calm down and then respond again if you need to be taken seriously

>>95993167
Part of why I'm able to get away with it is because most DMs seem to take the same view as you do. It's just more fun for everyone involved if you just... don't play D&D 5e while you're playing D&D 5e.

>>95992980
I don't even resource manage ammo

>>95993178
My players do it regularly. If it's so eggregious that it's tilting the balance of gameplay I'll call it out. If it means we have to roleplay one fewer short rest? The fuck do I care, seriously.

>>95993180
90% of players don't manage anything other than their HP to be honest... and sometimes not even that if the DM isn't paying attention.

>>95993005
>keep this cancer contained (to dnd)
>one of those 3 characters is one of my pf2e characters
Lol. Lmao.

>>95993180
I have never once bothered with this, except when it comes to magic ammo (which is one of my favorite magic items to give out).

>>95993198
Pathfinder is a D&D clone. One of the more respectable D&D clones, but that's not saying much when D&D 5e and D&D 2024 lowered the bar so much it's on the floor already.

>>95993198
I honestly thought it was the same character with different clothes/hairstyles for each class shown.

>>95993198
Cuckfinder is D&D

>>95993091
I'm glad you are so prescient of my situation that you know the context without having been told, and yet despite your psychic abilities you are still fucking wrong, because both of them begged me to run the game for them, some people are genuinely just too fucking stupid to comprehend simple concepts, someone like yourself, and the gentleman who posted >>95993079

>>95993091
I literally said that I blamed the players you fucking mongoloid, at no point did I criticize the game system, but you are correct, 5e is an absolutely dog shit abominable garbage fire

>>95993205
I've also played them in gurps and hero system and a homebrew system mishmash of hero system, pf2e, and original stuff. Beacon will probably be the next one.

>>95993216
It started on a west march style one-shot server where they were originally simulacrums of the original. Now they're mainly background heroes along with heroes my players have used in various previous campaigns in my new setting and I'm slowly getting art of them actually having different designs/ages/etc instead of just being clones.

>>95993092
Castards are a blight on the game. This type of shit is why I always track playoid spell slots behind the screen.
>NOOOOO I WANNA BE THE STRONGEST IN THE PARTY ALWAYS! I WANNA! I WANNA! WAAHH
Man, kill yourself.

>>95993264
Casters aren't the problem. D&D's shit game design that lets casters do almost anything if they have spell slots and almost nothing if they don't, that is the problem.

There is a reason basically no modern TTRPGS (that aren't shitty D&D clones) use spell slots or make magic an omnitool loaded up with cheat codes for every situation imaginable.

>>95993264
>"Casters are a blight on the game!"
>Meanwhile at least 3/4ths of the classes in the game are casters of some kind.

Seems like pretty flawed game-design to me. Have you tried playing better-designed games?

>>95993300
In 5e, even the classes that aren't casters have subclasses that turn them into casters. Unsurprisingly these tend to be amongst the most useful/strong subclasses for a given class, as well as the most played.

Imagine creating a game where almost everything of importance is caused by, solved by, or otherwise has to do with magic and expecting people to play characters who can't interact with that part of the game at all.

>>95992710
This is literally how it should be. 1/battle is better than 1/short rest

>hurr i run away and come back two tur-
You are shunned from the party and branded a coward and deserter, nobody will ever recruit you again. Roll a new character.

>>95992780
>>95993083
You both sound like you could use a Short Rest :)

>>95993258
I'll give you props for talking about your character so openly when the art was included in a post talking about how cringy modern D&D has become.

>>95993236
>because both of them begged me to run the game for them,
Wow, you're really good at reading people. And so smart.
Someone displays complete enthusiasm in what her husband wants to do, except in actually doing it? I wonder what's the reasons behind that.

>>95993418
Not that anon, but I've noticed alot of people are really enthusiastic about the IDEA of D&D... but then when they actually have to play it, all that enthusiasm dries up in the face of a mediocre unfun rules system that sucks all the fun out of the initial idea of a fantasy adventure.

It's the whole Expectations vs Reality, thing.

>>95993438
This is especially true of normies, especially if their only conception of D&D is like... Stranger Things and Critical Role.

>>95993160
Clamp down on passive aggressive bitchy shit immediately. Even setting aside disagreements over a game, they're (presumably) your friends and you shouldn't let anyone talk to you like that.

I'm not saying flip the table over, but just look them firmly in the eye and tell them to knock that shit off if they want to keep playing at your table. Nine times out of 10, they'll realize they were being an asshole and stop.

>>95993438
>>95993465
This comes from DMs not actually level setting expectations compared to television shows.
Big Bang Theory did the same thing.

Its fascinating how the original short rest from 4e is five minutes. Its literally just a short breather, catching your breath and getting back into into it. You get all of your encounter powers back, spend healing surges to heal up, and all it costs is five minutes of time.

PF2e also has an implicit short rest, never actually called out in the rules, for casters and certain skills. The 10 minute Refocus action and the base 10 minute [Treat Wounds] Medicine skill action both lead to a common short rest time, where after combat a party will rest and regain their focus spells and slightly patch up everyone.

Both of these have fairly balanced short rests, with combat flow and exploration not suffering from extended down times but characters arent overpowered from taking multiple rests.

Whats interesting is that its not the short rest that's the problem in 5e, although a fucking hour as standard is way too long. Its the spells themselves that's the problem. Casters, any casters, are simply too good in 5e.

>>95993547
>"Casters are too good!"
3/4ths of the player options in the game are casters, and even "non-caster" classes usually have access to subclasses that make them casters, or abilities that let them cast spells some other way.

D&D 5/DnD 2024 literally cannot make interesting player options without making them spells or access to spells. It's really sad.

>>95993438
You need to stop acting like these people would instead end up having the time of their lives if they were playing some other system instead.

If they're struggling to remember how to do attack rolls, there's next to no system that they're not going to struggle with.

>>95993566
>D&D 5/DnD 2024 literally cannot make interesting player options without making them spells or access to spells. It's really sad.
Yep. Mearls, Perkins, and Crawford are shit ass hacks when it comes to game design. Mearls is even famous for hating on 4es Warlord because nonmagical healing was too much for his tiny brain. Im glad they've fucked off to Daggerheart to eventually run that into the ground, and D&D is likely going to be sent to the Hasbro vaults in a few years.

>>95993571
>If they're struggling to remember how to do attack rolls, there's next to no system that they're not going to struggle with.
Eh I'm not sold on that. My group has run plenty of games and if we go for something more RP-driven with simpler, more striaght-forward combat (even like a retclone of D&D instead of 5e), they get a lot more out of it, I feel like. The problem is that they want to move to 5e because newer players see that as thing they're "supposed" to play or whatever. Even VtM, my players who struggle w/ playing 5e at a reasonable speed do much better. Because it's a lot less fiddly mechanics to track and I can generally tell them what they should do. VtM I tell them "Roll this attribute and this skill" and that's all that they've gotta figure out. Otherwise they've got some resources to spend and the rest of it is being surprised when I suggest "well you could use that discipline to do XYZ related thing." Even old editions of D&D, they say what they wanna do and I say "gimme X attribute check." Rather than them trying to read through their list of powers to try to get inspired or whatever, to determine how they should move foreward.

>>95993591
Except 5e has nonmagical healing and a good amount of it.

The warlord sucks for a wide number of reasons, with the chief among them that the "Leader" role was a terrible idea from 4e, and the warlord was nothing more than "Martial+Leader".

>>95992695 (OP)
Resting is terrible in nu-DND because it's a semi-simulationist resource management mechanic that clashes with the rest of the game's arcadey feel. They also hamper the narrative flow of the stories that are told with DND nowadays.

>>95993607
Nothing wrong with the 'leader' title, as they were designed to let you know at a glance what the class tended to do.

>>95993607
>The warlord sucks for a wide number of reasons
You are literally the first person I have encountered since the warlord released that has said the warlord sucks. It is near universally praised as an absolutely fun class to play from pretty much everyone who played 4e or has looked at the potential of the class.

And Leaders were always fun in some way.

>Except 5e has nonmagical healing and a good amount of it.
Like what? Seriously, I cant think of any healing that doesn't involve magic of some sort, from potions to ki points, Cure Wounds to Healing Word. The Medicine skill is the only nonmagical healing I can think of and that's nothing compared to how much magic can restore in 5e.

>>95992695 (OP)
>DnDrones having DnD problems
Many such cases

>>95993594
5e is incredibly straightforward. Almost everything is a d20 roll, adv/dvd is incredibly basic, and once you have those two under your belt you should be able to learn the rest as you go along. This is especially obvious if you actually start at 1st level, when characters only have their most basic abilities.

But we're talking about >his wife in my group for over a year and literally every week I would have to explain to her how to roll and attack
I've likewise encountered these sort of players, in many different systems. They care about the rules about as much as these contestants care about remembering these people's names. https://youtu.be/sZ7OJdDSXVo?si=4sEcxwIa74qdTkTT

It's not that it's difficult to remember. It's that they just don't actually care while only putting in the effort to appear like they do.

>>95993060
Anon, this board is a rotting husk of a zombie that got killed over a decade ago. I sincerely don't believe on-topic lying is capable of making things any worse than they are.

>>95992980
>A dungeon crawl should be about managing your resources
Time is a resource as well, moron.

>>95993644
>>95993665
Oh yeah everyone is still playing and praising 4e all right.

>Like what?
Second Wind, Spending Hit Dice during short rests, the Healer's kit, all pretty common and used frequently. Then there's stuff like Inspiring Leader which provides Temp HP which act very much like healing.

>>95993180
I manage it per encounter but after the encounter I assume everyone tops up on ammo.

>>95993160

I know it's cliche at this point, but just don't play DnD.

>>95993677
>5e is incredibly straightforward
Not really. You've got XYZ powers you can use XYZ times between Short/Long rests, and they interact to provide additional actions and fill bonus action slots. And every round of combat, every player is trying to coordinate those to maximize abilities. It takes a decent amount of information juggling that many people simply aren't used to doing in order to play games when they're used to games being "do X, Y happens."

A Warlock gets Pact of the Tome and has a Patron of the Fiend. So you can at-will cast 3 cantrips and if you reduce an enemy to 0hp, you gain temporary HP equal to your charisma modifier + your level. So if I cast Magic Stone as a bonus action and can hit the enemy at 2hp w/ a ranged attack then I gain X HP. Blah blah blah. Calculations like this require an extended logic chain that is NOT as straightforward nor as simple as the vast majority of ttrpgs. It's just false that 5e is straightforward. It's a convoluted slog, and it's intentionally DESIGNED to be one.

>>95993340
>>95992710
4e does exactly that and 5e players act like it's the worst edition to ever happen

4e is what most dnd players actually want to play

>>95992695 (OP)
Short rests enable one of the only funny or entertaining things about optimising faggotry in DnD, the concept of a sorcerer/warlock multiclass using insomnia to game the system, cheating the mystical/divine/demonic/eldritch etc. forces that gave him both his inborn and borrowed powers from at the same time. It's exactly the kind of stupidity that exposes such faggotry for what it is while also being unironically funny instead of annoying. Or do coffeelocks not exist anymore?

>>95993827
D&D players in general are kind of mostly retarded, because anyone with a working game moved on to better games.

>>95993827
>4e does exactly that and 3.5e players act like it's the worst edition to ever happen
Fixed that for you.

>>95993005
The irony of a post like this of course being that only someone whose opinions about TTRPGs are all regurgitated from youtubers would actually think that Critical Role tourists are all there is to DnD anymore.

>>95993069
I like a short rest as a consolation prize for when I interrupt the party’s long rest with a threat that their watch rotation can’t handle on its own. If my players decide to take a siesta after every encounter, I punish them for it.

>>95993854
Anyone playing modern D&D in it's current state is not someone I would want to game with. Whatever is left might as well all be tourists. Anyone worth playing with got the fuck out of this sinking ship ages ago.

>>95992867
Just run them out of hit dice. Not the players' fault the DM can't prep/bullshit well enough.

No hit dice to spend? No short rests. Also, no rations or water? No short rests. That's a "wait", not recuperating or "resting".

tl;dr: it's the DM's fault and OP's for sucking.

>>95993857
>players can only take a long rest after 18 hours after the previous long rest
4e actually had a cogent ruleset, compared to 5e that cribbed things without the internal logic to support it.

>>95993438
>enthusiastic about the idea of DnD
I'd say they're more enthusiastic about the idea of a TTRPG in general and DnD pushes hard for the idea of being the coca-cola of TTRPGs. Gurps may be an attempt to create a system that can be whatever you make of it in earnest, but DnD definitely wants its whole lore, aesthetic and naturally mechanics to be so accommodating that new players basically don't have any notion in their mind about what would make DnD different to any other game. This setup naturally leads to DnD being a more boring experience because for it to work the party and the DM have to be especially good at coming up with their own ideas using component pieces given to them by the game, instead of the meat and bones of the experience being ordained by things the game fundamentally is as opposed to things it fundamentally isn't. You wouldn't play Vampire the masquerade expecting your character to not be a vampire, you wouldn't play Call of Cthulu expecting the plot to not involve Lovecraftian horror. You wouldn't play the Teenage Mutant Ninja turtles rpg without the expectation that your character is a talking mutant animal that does martial arts. But these people expect DnD to be everything and it ends up as nothing.

>>95993713
>Second Wind, Spending Hit Dice during short rests, the Healer's kit
Healers Kit is medicine skill. Standard healing system across editions.
I'll give you Second Wind, a silly patch for Fighters to keep fighting because of the yo-yo effect of being a front liner in 5e.
Spending hit dice is just basic healing from resting. Every edition has had that.
Temp HP doesn't count as healing. And if you want to include that, 4e fighter had the battlerager and Invigorating powers to accomplish that.

Im talking things that arent standard, like warlords or bards healing people by inspiring them. Adroit Explorer gets a free heal once per encounter (plus a reroll on the save). In fact, looking right now at the list of powers that heal, there is a ton of martial healing, not just warlord, but also fighter, bard, and others. Not just a silly little Second Wind, but healing the party with a martial power. Healing yourself after killing something, healing a dying ally from a distance, healing yourself and enrolling a save. All kinds of varieties besides the simplistic bullshit of 5e.

>>95993874
>4e actually had a cogent ruleset
A plain open faced, cogent and well thought out ruleset, that was reviled by far too many idiots resulting in a return to obfuscated natural language and half assed rules.

>>95993781
>A Warlock gets Pact of the Tome and has a Patron of the Fiend. So you can at-will cast 3 cantrips and if you reduce an enemy to 0hp, you gain temporary HP equal to your charisma modifier + your level. So if I cast Magic Stone as a bonus action and can hit the enemy at 2hp w/ a ranged attack then I gain X HP. Blah blah blah. Calculations like this require an extended logic chain that is NOT as straightforward nor as simple as the vast majority of ttrpgs.
A regular game has far too many unknowns to make such calculations reliably and you don't need to in the first place to play the game. If choosing from 3 cantrips takes you more than a few seconds, you should get checked where you fall on the autism spectrum.

>>95993832
>Or do coffeelocks not exist anymore?
They never were a thing outside of the white room. Coffeelocks require the DM to run a static world and ignore every piece of advice from the DMG to work.

>>95993547
>Casters, any casters, are simply too good in 5e.
makes sense that you play pozfinder 2e which nerfs them into the ground

>>95994090
Its actually not the casters that got nerfed, its the spells. They were brought into alignment with martial actions and made to not be encounter enders vs bosses. Now your caster is properly balanced and its amazing how many people fucking hate not being the overpowered god wizard who is obviously the Main Character of the group.

I played casters exclusively in 3.5 and PF1e, played a mix of caster and martial in 4e, and now play a mix of casters and martial in PF2e. Its amazing what having a system that balances casters and martials can accomplish, allowing all classes to thrive instead of just your CoDzillas and Godmages.

Also, nice self protrait.

>>95993205
>when D&D 5e and D&D 2024 lowered the bar so much
They're only a step or two further down into the pit that 3.5 gleefully sprang down into.

>>95993316
Not a problem in 2024, hilariously enough.

>>95993644
>Nothing wrong with the 'leader' title, as they were designed to let you know at a glance what the class tended to do.

No, it's fundamentally wrong and bad.

It's born out the idiocy of MMORPG-style roles, The Tank, The DPS, The AoE, and the Healer, with the same struggle that every other game with those awful roles has: The Healer is incredibly unpopular. To put it bluntly, it's the bitch class. Many games try to address this by making Healers stronger so that it's a more attractive option, and 3rd edition actually tried this and ended up making the Druid/Cleric incredibly overpowered as a result.

4e went the route of saying "No, you're not Healers... You're Leaders!"
And, while that definitely makes the role sound more attractive, it introduces more problems than it fixes, with one of the foremost ones being so obvious even 4e itself had to address that no, being a Leader didn't actually make you the party's leader, and no, you weren't supposed to order the other players around.

The Warlord exists in this weird space where the designers are aware that it needs to be made without the actual authority or explicitly-stated social contract to actually be a leader. It grants other PCs extra options and bonuses without directly controlling them (because, let's be frank, that would lead to riots), but ultimately acts less like a "leader" and more like a "support", and it's actually amusing because it often feels more akin to RPG classes like Scholars/Bards or FE Dancers. To compensate, they really just allowed it to rape the action economy and become one of the strongest if not the strongest Leader Roles, all without really doing anything to move the support feeling. Even some of its strongest attacks (such as Lead the Attack), dependent on being melee to try and force the Warlord to be in a more frontline postion, still end up making the warlord feel like a backline character because it's the support bonus that's considerably more important.

>>95993566
People can shit on 2024 all they want, but casters are not a problem in that system now that martials got a massive power buff. Of course people would know this if they actually played.

>>95994013
>A regular game has far too many unknowns to make such calculations reliably and you don't need to in the first place to play the game.
These are the logic chains that players attempt to follow to create their "builds." Which is why 5e is such a fucking slog. Your "but what if everyone just thought about it in a different way?" is irrelevant. This is exactly how it plays out.

>>95992695 (OP)
You shut your whore mouth short rests keep me alive.
Oh you are talking about games.

>>95993781
At 1st level they get Pact of the Tome?
At 1st level, even the spellcasters are incredibly simple. Warlocks have 2 cantrips and 2 spells.
By second level, the players should understand the basics of the game, and be able to handle something like a new ability.

By third level, which is 2-3+ sessions later, they should be ready for something like 3 whole cantrips. If they're not, it might be a good idea for them to play one of the simpler classes, of which there are many, until they feel comfortable playing something more complicated considering that they're actually kind of stupid if even a 3rd level warlock is giving them so much trouble.

But, we're not even talking about that. We're talking about the type of player who doesn't care enough to remember how a basic attack works.

>>95993939
>Temp HP doesn't count as healing
I have nothing to do with this discussion but felt the need to call you put on being an angle shooting faggot. Temp HP is literally MORE powerful than normal healing by nature of the fact it doesn't eat into your actions per turn, and function the same in almost all situations outside of a 1 hit knockout (which temp HP often can prevent as well).

>>95994317
You're arguing how things theoretically could be. Which is exactly the same problem that 5e's development had, ironically.

All theory crafting about how you think it should work. No actual experience playing it.

>>95992695 (OP)
Short Rests are rooted in two things, the preexisting resting rules for dungeon crawls in D&D and its alikes, and per-encounter abilities.
In classic D&D you had to rest one game turn out of every six or become fatigued. This was the short rest. 10 minutes taking stock of your resources, having a small bit of your daily ration, etc. That was fine and dandy, and added to the tension of dungeon crawling.
The problem comes in when you add per encounter abilities, which started in late 3E but really became a thing in 4E. They weren't so bad there since 4E isn't D&D, it's Dragon Strike, a D&D side project for fantasy super-heroics. The moment 5E wanted to go back to the aesthetic power level of 3E without giving the mechanical power level of 4E, per encounter (or per short rest) abilities became a millstone that ruins the tension of dungeon crawling, and forced any setting that uses the system to be a very high magic world where every 3rd NPC casts spells of some sort.

tl;dr: No, but they are a response to something that is completely retarded.

>>95994217
>>95994262
>"If I keep pushing this lie often enough, people will believe it!"

No, retard.

>>95994330
What the fuck are you on about.
I'm not telling you theoreticals. At 1st level, D&D is incredibly basic, and designed to be so that even largely retarded players can still learn how to play the game if they actually want to.

But, we're not talking about someone who actually wants to learn. We're talking about the classic wife/girlfriend dragged to a game because she knows how much her husband/boyfriend cares about it and she feels obligated to spend time with him. She wants to pretend she shares interests with him, wants pretend to be open to new things, etc.

It's no different than the girlfriends who go to sports games, except those girls are happy that they are not going to be quizzed about anything more difficult than maybe who won the game. With D&D, even something like "Roll the d20 to attack" is a lot more information than they're willing to commit to, because even remembering which die is the d20 is brain space they're not interested in wasting.

This isn't a male/female thing though. Guys get dragged to things by their girlfriends/wives too, and they need to pretend they care and pray there's not going to be tested on it later. No matter how much you love someone, going to their 3rd cousin's wedding and then being asked to remember what both the bride and groom's names were two weeks later is going to be a struggle. Having to remember which is the d12 and which is the d20 two weeks later is roughly the same challenge for people who just don't give a fuck.

>>95994448
You're probably talking to a zoomer who finds it difficult to read, let alone memorize rules.
To them, being able to understand 5e was a legitimate fucking undertaking. They probably had to study, they probably had to focus, it probably took them YEARS.
So, when you think it's obvious how easy this system is, it's a direct insult to someone who has ADHD, dyslexia, and stupid in addition to that.
You're talking to someone who is likely an under-aged social media addict with profound learning disabilities. 5e is *actually* hard for people like that.

>>95994346
>That was fine and dandy, and added to the tension of dungeon crawling.
You mean it added to the tedious book-keeping. Being forced to rest at certain intervals to avoid penalties is less about increasing tension and more of just a sacred cow carried over by people who ironically think that a game being less fun makes it somehow better.
Modern short rests have nothing to do with those forced fatigue shit that came out of slapping bad outdoor survival rules onto the game and thinking you did a great job.

>ruins the tension of dungeon crawling,
What the fuck is wrong with you. Giving the players options and encouraging them to use them isn't about "fantasy super-heroics", it's about actually making combat fun. Meaningful options are fun, something that tends to be absent from the earliest editions of D&D where the major decisions you can make boil down to "fight or run."

>>95994228
MMO roles were built out of how people played D&D. THE CIRCLE OF LIFE!

>>95994525
You don't have the right mindset for tabletop games.

>>95994672
The MMORPG version just takes the most superficial aspects though.

>>95994160
>muh balance
mmm yum -1 to this one thing against one enemy that has been mathematically optimized to only challenge our party at this specific point in time

kill yourself, nigger

>>95994685
>you wanting to have fun is the wrong mindset for games

I don't need to turn my fun into pointless work in order to trick myself that it has value.

>>95994440
I actually play the game, so I'm more inclined to believe myself than the people who clearly have no idea what they're talking about.

>>95994448
>What the fuck are you on about.
How ill-informed you are about the things that make 5th Edition such a slog.

>>95994708
The fact that you think resource management isn't fun tells me all I need to know about you /v/ermin.

>>95994160
>Its amazing what having a system that balances casters and martials can accomplish
A shrinking playerbase outside of fart huffing redditors like (you)?

>>95992706
>ESL fail on the desperate attempt to get a FPBP.

Suck a fat dick, brown boy.

>>95993083
>neccesary

A lot of ESLs in this thread, huh?

>>95995446
Resource management can be fun.
But, it can also be complete shit.
If you want to tell me that you think every kind of resource management is great, even the most tedious, time-wasting sort, then I'm more than happy to call you out as the dumbest fucking retard.

But, you don't believe that extreme. So, why are you trying to say I believe the exact hyperbolic opposite, except in order to create a strawman?

>>95993827
No it doesn't, they still take short rests the difference is that a 4e short rest is five minutes of inhaling jerky, bandaging wounds, and preparing equipment/spell books instead of a whole fucking hour of sitting around jerking off

>>95995446
AEDU is just gamifying resource management and tying it to combat.
4e is closer to AD&D in terms of design goal than 3.5 or 5e ever was.
I feel like this shouldn't need to be said, but a lot of people somehow seem to miss this point.

Encounter powers, Daily powers, healing surges, etc. are all RESOURCES that players MANAGE through combat.

>>95993358
the idea someone would save my art just so they can repost it with dnd hate is very amusing to me.

>>95993160
It's your table and if the players do not trust you enought know what you're doing balance wise it's best to stop dm'ing for them. An AI would do a better job sucking them off for rolling dice.

>>95992695 (OP)
Short rests? No. 1 hour short rests? Yes.

>>95993607
The Warlord is literally the best class ever made for D&D and Leader was the best role.

>>95992695 (OP)
There's nothing inherently wrong with the concept of "short rests" provided that it makes sense within context and is not at odds with verisimilitude. This is uncommon, to say the least.

5e is fucking garbage.

>>95993827
People want 4e with mechanics wrapped in simulationist descriptions and interactions.

>>95993050
>Good games just use "per encounter" or "per scene" counts on abilities that are meant to limited.
Define encounter.
Define scene.
Define these things within the context of the universe in order to rationalize the logic as to why something "refreshes" at that point and not otherwise.

You're a fucking retard and your take is bad and you should feel bad.

>>95993092
Makes sense, sort of
But D&D at any higher than starting levels, let's say 6+, breaks if you do that

>>95993547
Vanilla GURPS uses Fatigue Points to cast spells and everyone uses the same resource (especially if you allow Extra Effort for martials too) so all rests from a theoretical 0 FP take about an hour or two
It's pretty elegant IMO but every GURPS player who is me seems to hate it for whatever reason.

>>95992695 (OP)
Yes. They need to grow some balls (and brains) and just stop trying to coddle players. If someone decides to play something like a caster and they decide to go nova and blow their slots then tough titty. It's a roleplaying game, not a video game. Players should be put on the backfoot sometimes.

We played when infinite cantrips weren't even a thing and we adapted or we died.

>>95994697

What deeper aspects were there? High damage output isn't a calling in life to the mysteries of beyond, anon. It's just DPS.

If you want the deeper stuff that happens out of combat, that was in the rituals section. There's never a reason to take up combat resources for Raise Dead, you're not going to be casting it in combat and it really doesn't matter who does it.

>>95992695 (OP)
*All* resting is a mistake.

>>95997612
More like Vancian casting is a mistake

>>95994228
This is genuinely just nogames autism.

>>95992695 (OP)
Just homebrew short rests being 5 min breathers like in 4e. The problem everyone has with Short Rests is just that it takes so long that 99% of the time you can take it you might as well Long Rest. No, the GM putting a time limit or urgency doesn't fucking help, dicking around for an hour as opposed to eight still annihilates all tension.

>>95992695 (OP)
theres nothing conceptually wrong with a short rest
a one hour breather to catch your breathe which doesnt heal as much as a good nights sleep

>>95997843
>The problem everyone has with Short Rests is just that it takes so long that 99% of the time you can take it you might as well Long Rest.
a short rest is just 1 hour
a long rest is 8 hours

>dicking around for an hour as opposed to eight still annihilates all tension.
you dont seem to really grasp the difference between 1 and 8 hours
you take a short rest, its probably still bright outside
you take a long rest, and suddenly its dark

>>95997847
There isn't all that much difference if all you do in real life is shitpost at your computer.

>>95994228
God I miss my Warlord

>>95997847
Short Rest is 2 hours, but even if it was 1 hour
>Oh man this 36 second fight against 5 goblins really took it out of me, can we do nothing for 2 hours?

Why are so many people in this thread whining about short rests giving casters spell slots back when literally only the warlock gets spells back on a short rest?

>>95998410
Technically, wizards, sorcerers and land druids have features that let them regain spell slots on a short rest, once a day. Clerics and paladins have an optional feature from Tasha that lets them expend divinity for a similar effect.

>>95998380
>Short Rest is 2 hours, but even if it was 1 hour
it's definitely 1 hour. did they have different numbers for different printings or something?

>The D&D troll autist is sperging the fuck out because people don't think D&D is perfect
>again

>>95997347
When I used to play D&D I hated how spellcasters would constantly hog the entire game to themselves and when you think that you'll be able to have a moment you either have the spellcasters convincing everyone to take a short rest or the spellcaster getting a lucky roll on a skill check that they shouldn't even be taking anyway because they have 9 strength.

>>95997847
The problem is that in the situations you need one in, 1 hour is as untenable as 8 hours unless the DM is breaking the game just to try and make it work.

>>95995573
I just know that you're wrong in thinking dungeon turns, light sources, food management, and spell duration is in any way tedious or time-wasting, let alone "even the most". There is no way to steelman your point, if the point your making is that those braindead simple mechanics are a waste of time.
>>95997051
AEDU is gamification of resource management, and if you follow the string of posts I never said that they weren't. I never touched upon them because they exist to add tension to combat encounter, not the dungeon crawl.
>4e is closer to AD&D in terms of design goal than 3.5 or 5e ever was.
Only by baby steps in so far that it admitted it was focused on the dungeon adventure, but it lacked everything that made AD&D function as a dungeon crawler. The 4E DMG tells you that the DM's job is to guide the heroes from one combat or puzzle encounter to the next, ignoring the connective tissue. Nearly half of AD&D's DMG was about that connective tissue.

>>96003007
you can take a quick one hour break and still have enough time within the day to do something
you take a long break and that is the only thing you do for the rest of the day

>>95992980
>A dungeon crawl should be about managing your resources over multiple encounters and fighting intelligently. Sure it's always an option to go rest and recoup outside the dungeon but that should risk the denizens teaming up, resetting traps, fortifying etc or NPC adventurers beating you to the treasure.
The simplest way is to replicate Dark Souls. You rest, all the enemies you killed respawn but without any treasure you've already looted. This is the general idea you fucking retard, not literal. You killed a bunch of orcs? Have a patrol return and reoccupy some different areas. You killed the mini-boss demon? Another demon arrives to investigate why his nigga isn't answering his texts. It's not a one-for-one respawn. Also randomize, and let the players explicitly know you're randomizing. "When you rest I'm going to roll on a table for what happens. I'll even show you the table after the adventure to prove I'm not fudging, the cardinal sin of DM'ing. Most of the things are bad, which is what you'd expect as time passes in a hostile environment you're looting. But there's a chance nothing will happen, and an even smaller chance something good might happen. So resting is a risk."

>>96003067
Food management is a pure waste of time and it's not just dungeon crawling either
That's why spells have handled it since forever cos nobody can be bothered to count lembas rations

>>96003129
>Food management is a pure waste of time and it's not just dungeon crawling either
>That's why spells have handled it since forever cos nobody can be bothered to count lembas rations
Food management is simply a timer with a thin coat of simulation paint. Instead of food you could call it Timer X. You have 20 Units to accomplish your goal, after which you die/fail. Or maybe once you reach 0 Units, you incur penalties until another 5 Timer Units tick by, then you die. Occasionally you will find additional Units on your travels, but don't count on it. Tracking torches or light is a different kind of timer since it has a different kind of immediate effect if you run out -- you can't see in the dark.

>>95992695 (OP)
I always assumed short rest being a long breather/preparation pit stop rather than just an hour power nap lel.

>>95997243
> within the context of the universe
D&D hasn't been simulationist since 3e. If you're playing 3e you don't have to deal with short rests so what are you even doing in this thread?

>>95994702
>>95995447
What's funny is that you don't even disagree that casters are unbalanced, you just think that this is the way it SHOULD be.

>>96003476
Nope. Swing and a miss redditor-kun.

>If you make fun of Dogshit 2e then you MUST love DnD!
Sane, mature, reasonable reaction from a grown, mature adult who is not at all a deranged Paizo fangirl.

>>96003094
This is an excellent way to do things. And encourages players to use alternative ways to solve encounters instead of fighting their way through. I might steal that table idea though.

>>96003484
Oh so you do agree that having balanced caster and martials is a good thing, you just got your feefees hurt by pf2e praise?

>>96003476
>This guy has peaks and valleys to his power and can't always bring his most powerful abilities to every encounter
>This guy can fight at 100% more or less every encounter but has a fairly even power throughout the day
How is this not already balanced? When you actually enforce time limits casters aren't always the end all be all to every encounter.

>>96003129
>Food management is a pure waste of time
It's baffling that are people like this.
Ah yes, one of the most important drives in all living creatures is just a waste of time.

>>96003491
It is a good thing. But I'm not sure why you're bringing up 2e as an example of that?

Don't you have a containment thread to circlejerk in? Nobody outside of there pretends 2e is actually a good system.

Also don't project. You literally made up a strawman just because you were upset 2e got made fun of. That's what a fragile fanboy baby does.

>>95992695 (OP)
Negative, it’s good to need a rest during the day. Even old classics have that

>>96003496
>How is this not already balanced
Try playing 5e

>>96003501
bro you're having a melty over someone praising pf2e.
This isn't your private forum, your bitching ain't gonna stop people from posting about games they like.

>>96003506
I have. I stretched party resources over 6 to 8 encounters and it felt fine. I designed encounters with the assumption they would eat at least one Fireball.

Would you believe that the FIGHTER was the one that did the most work that campaign?

>>96003515
???

I responded to your post
>>96003476
where you put words in my mouth.

Now you're upset I critcized your shitty board game. And trying to pretend it's everyone else who's mad.

>your bitching ain't gonna stop people from posting about games they like
And your temper tantrum won't stop the vast majority of this board from calling Pathfinder 2e shit. If you don't want to see that, then stick to your containtment general. If not, then don't cry when inevitably you see people rightfully calling it a bad system.

>>95993180
I have the players lose ammo when they miss in regards to arrows, bolts, and such. The assumption being they would just loot ammo from the body. Missed shots are lost/broken.

Bullets and the like are just straight up gone when shot as they are unrecoverable.

>>95992695 (OP)
The entirety of JotC's version of D&D were mistakes.

>>96003498
>worrying about something mundane
I bet you track taking shits too.

>>96003476
>What's funny is that you don't even disagree that casters are unbalanced, you just think that this is the way it SHOULD be.
people play classes for different reasons, so the satisfaction of fulfilling the class fantasy trumps the need for mathematical parity.

also, casters are approximately balanced in 5e, just asymmetrically.

You know I have to say I've been meaning to check out Pathfinder 2e but literally every single fan on this board I've seen acts like a humongous insecure faggot and that makes me not want to. It's like an entire fanbase made up of the DnD troll guy.

I hope I've just been getting unlucky because my players really seem keen on it. I took a peak at the general and the entire thread is warped by one extremely insecure 2e fan who I suspect is the same one having a melty in this thread.

Maybe it's just one omega autist board wide ruining things for everyone else haha. One can only hope.

>>96003732
Paizoids are notoriously insecure. It's not just a 2e thing, they've always been like that. The meltdown in this thread was tame compared to some I've seen.

It's what happens when your game attracts midwits in large enough numbers. An attack on the system is an attack on their perceived above average intelligence which is all they have.

>>96003732
To be fair it goes both ways if you bring up PF 2e in a remotely positive light at all it brings the gremlins crawling out of the woodwork to tell you:
"Actually it's shit and you're dumb for liking it"

Like the games not perfect and it's got some flaws, but damn let people recommend a game they like in peace.

Now that I say this I'm gonna be accused of being that guy even though I don't even go in the general and don't play the game.
I looked at it and thought it was alright, tried to solve the problems of PF1e while keeping the philosophy, succeeded on most things but caused other problems.
But I'm just rambling at this point.

>>95993160
Run triple-deadly encounters and triple all short-rest resources, so you can have one big all-or-nothing life-or-death mega-boss-battle per adventuring day, rather than a series of smaller paced encounters with limited rests in-between.
Or just don't play D&D.

>>96003732
I mean if you want a more nuanced opinion on PF2e I could give you some of my thoughts. It's got some good stuff and some absolutely fucking retarded stuff. Character generation is really cool and I love how it actually manages to make point buy balanced AND weaves your backstory into the stats you get. Then you have stuff like shields taking an action to raise to get your AC bonus, leading into them nerfing the Shield spell so that once you use it you can't use it for 10 minutes after you use it as a shield block reaction. Like even if it doesn't block any damage, you just can't use it. It's such an arbitrary rule. I do like the way saves work, partial passes and successes are a better way to balance save or suck spells and making it based off of the relation your roll is to the DC is also pretty smart. But then Casters kind of get the short end of the stick and blasts are even weaker than usual while Fighters can get frankly absurd amounts of damage via striking runes. The spell breakdown is really weird with Arcane and Divine making sense and Primal and Occult spells being also there. They kind of stuck anything that was vaguely occult or elemental in those categories.

That's about all I can remember about it right now. This post is really rambly, for everything I Like about PF2e it seems to do something I kind of dislike or hate. I do want to like it but the games I got to play in it didn't last very long. Take that as you will.

>>95993005
This is actually what I feared about the game getting as popular as it did, because the ACTUAL game becomes drowned out eventually from the normos who want ease-of-comfort.

>>95993160
>DM wants gritty resource-management gameplay
>players complain about "basic bitch normal attacks"
The game you want to play and the game your players want to play are impossible to reconcile, at least not without playing a different game or homebrewing D&D to the point that it might as well be a different game. Other game systems can usually handle "gritty resource management" and still let players do cool stuff even when stuck with "basic bitch normal attacks".
Otherwise, I strongly urge you to talk to your players, and let them know how you feel, like >>95993490 said.

>>95993005
This is true. Like another anon said, none of my players keeps track of ammo, I don't even know why I bother. I should just tell them to remove it from their character sheets. It would save me time from having them visit stores.

Some will keep track of spell slots, but not abilities use/day or vice versa. On examination I think some use/day restrictions on abilites are dumb. If a player wants to transform their hands into claws, I don't see why it's such a big deal. Any real weapon does more dmg. Let a nigga act like Wolverine if they want to.

>>96003898
>This is true. Like another anon said, none of my players keeps track of ammo, I don't even know why I bother. I should just tell them to remove it from their character sheets. It would save me time from having them visit stores.

Attrition should be a major part of the game. The video game analogy is "do you want every fight to be a boss fight (coming in with full resources)" or do you want all the small battles to be meaningful? Without attrition, the appearance of a non-TPK challenge is meaningless, why even play through it. Your options as DM are far far smaller.

As for arrows, yes, deduct them yourself. But don't force them to shop for them either. Just have a rule they automatically restock in full even time they visit town.

>>95994702

>>95993074
News flash. She is jot actually capable of being a nurse. She has an adult daycare for vagina havers 'job' where everyone with a dwinging dick has to pick up the slack for her incompetence. Women cannot do actual jobs.

>>95993170
NTA but you sound like an UM ACSHULLY gay faggot theatre kid who shpuld be fucking beaten out of the hobby with a 2x4.

>>95993316
Battlemaster shits all over arcane knight

>>95993709
Shhh... dont tell anon that. He'll chuck his tendies at mommy and shit his diaper then demand mommy change him.

>>95993074
>It absolutely is, and you need to touch grass if you think otherwise. I tried having my friend and his wife in my group for over a year and literally every week I would have to explain to her how to roll and attack, she is somehow capable of becoming a nurse, but cannot figure out what her character sheet means, or remember how to do any of the most basic actions.
That's because spending even 5 minutes learning your elfgame results are irrelevant to her. They don't offer her immediate attention, money, social status, or relationship gossip, therefore they don't exist. Meanwhile she probably can quote from every episode of The Bachelor by memory (this falls under relationship gossip and is therefore fascinating to women)

>>96003496
5e players and dm's are all poisoned by the faggotry of critical roll and the invading flood of theatre kid faggots.

So actually managing time is beyond them.

Time has always been the balance for the magic-user. Only having X many spells a day meant they're not casters.

Their job was to decide WHEN to use spells. Not just throw spells.

Goblin slayer of all things explains it best.

>>96003763
>giving my battlemaster 40 superiority dice at d20. 6 action surges.
I see you have elected the way of silly.

>>96004121
>I have never even smelled a woman: the post.

>>96004159
Cry more faggot. Be a bigger white knighting blue pilled simp.

>>96003521
>xhe is still going
lmao
show us on the doll where pf2e touched you

>>96003516
>I have. I stretched party resources over 6 to 8 encounters
>lil bro is talking about combat
you have no idea what the problem is huh

>>96003732
Your mistake is thinking that it's a 4chan's anon job to sell you a game
hint: outside of literal shills, no one gives a single shit that you aren't going to try game A or game B. 99% of anons just pirate all their shit anyway.
Try it for yourself, or don't.
Going "I was totally gonna try game a but the fans!" just makes you look like you want attention. This isn't /v/, there's no steam player numbers to watch and champion.

>>96005143
Wrong. I want everyone to use modiphius's excellent star trek adventures 1st ed system to have cool REAL star trek adventures.

Because it makes the troons and faggots at modiphius seethe in hate.

YARR HARR HARR the rulebooks so those cunts do not get a single red cent.

>>96005649
>troons and faggots
I will never, ever, in my life, understand how rightoids looked at Star Trek and said "this is it! This is where we make our stand!"

Star Trek could not have been more unwelcoming of your line of thought. No "if it tried" addendum here, because it DID try. At literally every single step in its fifty-plus years of history it has outright rejected everything you stand for, overtly, without subtlety or room for confusion. It has always been progressive and leftist. In the '60s with TOS that meant having the country's first interracial kiss on television; in the '80s with TNG that meant having a woman as chief of security and men in skirts and Irish terrorism; in the '90s with DS9 and VOY that means lesbian kisses and ableism talk and Native American stuff; in the early '00s with ENT that meant bluntly confronting things like euthanasia and abortion and intersex people existing and deserving rights and rejecting Bush Jr. and the Patriot Act. Now we're in the modern era and it means stuff like gender identity and refugees and immigration and so on. This shouldn't be surprising, there's a frickin', right-moving line that goes through the whole thing and connects it all.

Like...go make your own future space fantasy to fawn over. Star Trek is not for you, has never been for you, has never in any way suggested it is for you, has actively told you "you are wrong" for your entire life. The fact that you feel like it EVER wanted you to be part of it just makes you stupid.

>>95992710
It amazes me that people keep finding their way back to reinventing 4th edition D&D.

Almost every time I see someone bring up an issue with 5e D&D, the solution is there already.

>>96005730
>there's a frickin', right-moving line
*left-moving. Mea culpa.

>>96005740
Hahaha, yes.

How many different iterations of skill challenges were there again? Did they ever actually sort out the math?

>>95994228
>It's born out the idiocy of MMORPG-style roles
I'm going to say something that's going to break your brain.
MMOs were created initially by the kind of nerds who like tabletop games. The "holy trinity" of MMOs of Tanks/Healers/Damage Dealers? That shit is born of tabletop games - hell arguably it's born of D&D specifically.

The rest of your post isn't worth replying to because you're approaching it from a fundamentally flawed perspective.

>>96005754
You seem to be replying like I think 4e is perfect. It's not. It's got its flaws like any other game (still the best version of D&D but that's not a high bar to clear.)

But I've watched for years as players run into a frustration with 5e and the solution to their problem already existed in the previous edition.

>>95992695 (OP)
They're a mistake in that several classes are designed around them, but players don't want to take short rests.

>>96003780
>Character generation is really cool and I love how it actually manages to make point buy balanced AND weaves your backstory into the stats you get.
this is one of the worst parts about the system to me. it's so fiddly, especially combined with the various 'feats' they make you choose during character progression.

>>96005768
>MMOs were created initially by the kind of nerds who like tabletop games
Yes, but they're also video games, and as a result had different demands and goals.

D&D traditionally has four or five roles, depending on who you ask: Warrior, Rogue, Priest, Mage, and then Face as the optional fifth. The thing is that unlike MMOs, only one of those describes your role in combat, Warrior. The Warrior does combat and little else.

The Rogue-types are skill monkeys that are primarily useful OUT of combat. They sneak around, disable traps, open locks, climb walls, bribe officials, etc.

The Priests heal and buff in combat, but they also talk to the gods and the trees, get you animal friends or call up an angel to do you a solid. They magic up food to eat and make water safe to drink.

The Mages toss around fireballs and lightning bolts, but they also have spells to mind control, to reshape terrain, to make people tell the truth, to move you from place to place whether that place is 30 feet away or on another plane of existence.

And then there's the Face, the guy who talks to people, negotiates with the townsfolk or the nobles, convince the dragon that you are in NO way strong enough to take not to eat you, charm the princess into letting you go, and so on.

The RPG roles described what your class did throughout an entire adventure, not just in combat.

4e's problem was that the Striker, Leader, Controller, and Tank roles describe what the classes do in combat and ONLY in combat. But even though combat has more than half of the rules, it is not more than half of the game. It's not uncommon for entire D&D sessions to feature little to no combat, instead focusing on traps and talking and exploration and planning and so on. And whereas in previous editions the classes would still have robust mechanical features to support that, in 4e, they were lacking.

>>96005730
This is why you are a sub 80 iq retarded fuck.

Kirk blew up a computer and made two bunches of faggots have a real war, in order to make the fuckwits go to the peace table.
Kirk kissed uhura because she's smoking hot and a hyper competent officer, a vivacious babe.
Kirk faced down literal gods and told them to get fucked. Because FREEEDOM.

STAR TREK WAS ALWAYS CLASSICALLY LIBERAL, which is a moderate, conservative platform of political and ethical thought.

You fucking commie shitlord.

>>96005921
>Kirk kissed uhura because she's smoking hot and a hyper competent officer, a vivacious babe.
Congrats on demonstrating that you haven't watched the show you profess to be a bastion of conservatism, because no, that was not why Kirk kissed Uhura, you mongoloid. Also don't think it escaped my notice that you managed to completely whiff on every other point I raised for every other Trek series post-TOS.

And see, that's the other thing. I'll never understand why conservacucks have made Trek their hill to die on, but what REALLY bothers me is that not only have they done that, but they haven't even watched Trek in the first place! You don't even watch the thing you claim to idolize!

>>96005870
4E's noncombat half is much much stronger for everyone who isn't a spellcaster. Who do you think you're kidding with this horseshit?

>>96009810
>4E's noncombat half is much much stronger for everyone who isn't a spellcaster

I wish to craft a longsword. Just an ordinary longsword, not a magic one. Maybe a jewel in the pommel but just a normal jewel, not magic. Tell me how to do this in 4e.

>>96010398
Martial Power 2, pg. 150. The Master Artisan martial practice.

>>96010420
Odd, the two previous editions of D&D, as well as the subsequent one, put that right in the PHB.

You mean to tell me I had to wait three years, and buy an entire additional rulebook, just to get something that came as a basic part of every other edition of the game?

>>96010480
That wasn't the question, you fucking faggot. You said "I want to do this." I told you how to do it. Older editions didn't have crafting, period. Some existing RPGs don't have crafting either.

>>96003460
>m-m-muh D&D tho?!?!
Literally nobody was talking about D&Dogshit.
>what are you even doing in this thread?
Discussing the concept of short rests, you insufferable fucking mongoloid.

>>96010480
How can the noncombat be "much stronger" if we need to wait 3 years and get a DLC to do something that's a basic, PHB-part of most other D&D editions?

>>96010573
Whoops, meant for >>96010515

>>96010398
>I craft a sword
>Okay, you have a sword.
Done.

>>95992980
Resting inside a dungeon is always an option for fatigue reasons, as well as you understand that you're pretty likely going to get a surprise encounter rolled at random if you aren't able to secure your surrounding

>>96010573
You make that sword in an hour, maybe more if your DM is being a stickler. You can do that in 3.x, but it requires having a very high level bonus to Craft (after you pumped a bunch of skill points into it) instead of being level one and using 50 gp of materials (Master Artisan does not even require a check, and can be used to make anything mundane).

And 5e? With those craft rules? Good luck making anything in less than a work week.

short rests never a mistake fren they are very comfy

this is my character inside Leomund's Tiny Hut, he tells the monsters get a good night's sleep and see you tomorrow morning

>>96003078
>you can take a quick one hour break and still have enough time within the day to do something
My man, time of day is pretty much irrelevant while in a dungeon or a good chunk of situations the PCs generally find themselves in.

>>96010573
Most D&D editions didn't have crafting rules in the first place, the GM just homebrewed that shit or made the equivalent of shopping without needing to find a shop.

>>96010573
I'm not actually the guy you were arguing with. I do think most D&D doesn't have good non-combat rules. I wouldn't turn to any version of D&D for non-combat stuff.

>>96011158
>he doesn't have monsters leave the dungeon for night raids and have them return in the morning

>>96010529
a) The reply chain was about D&D, this is a thread about D&D
b) What games beside D&D have short rests

>>96011175
> Most D&D editions didn't have crafting rules in the first place

There’s been five. Second, third, and fifth most definitely have crafting rules, right in their PHBs. So that would mean that you are wrong, most editions *do* have crafting rules.

Actually I’ll grant that 2nd edition has rules for the check itself (Blacksmithing nonweapon proficiency in this case) but doesn’t really provide information on the material cost in the PHB. So we’ll call it two-and-a-half editions have the rules right in the PHB. 1st edition didn’t, but it has the excuse of being 1e. What’s 4e’s excuse?

>>96011063
The speed of the crafting isn’t the issue, it’s the fact that it’s something that had previously been a basic part of the game. Now it’s paid DLC that didn’t come out until three years after the fact.

Though on that note, 50 gp to make a longsword? In 3e it would’ve been 10 gp, and that’s with me including the 5 gp cost for artisan’s tools.

What if I want to forge the king’s signature? I know that’s part of the Bluff skill, but what’s the DC? I believe the total text for forgery in 4e is “you can”, but how easy or hard is it?

What if I want to calm down my frightened horse or be friendly with a magpie who has a stolen key that I need? There’s no Animal Handling skill anymore nor any equivalent in 4e.

>>96012169
Bruh.

>how to Handle Animal
pg. 186, core.
>how to forgery
It's not directly stated, I will grant you that, but if you use the Bluff skill, then whatever you roll would be an opposed roll to the person's Insight check.

>>96012169

Making a long sword in an hour out of what you stated to be more decorative and elaborate materials than usual. A blade like that usually took weeks to make, given historical examples. It certainly takes much longer in3.x and 5e, at best being cut down to a days work for a much more difficult check.

The 4e smith? Done in an hour, no check required, though it's nominally associated with Athletics. Presumably, you could wing it from the core with a check based on whatever skill you thought was the best fit, but that would take a while and the only thing I can give you is that 4e goes for a much more cinematic style that doesn't necessarily want to concentrate on adventurers doing much support work.

(There's another Martial Practice that lets you make shit so good that it counts as magical, incidentally. And it was 3.x that made magical shit mandatory, so maybe reflect on how the edition immediately prior to 4e warped the meta so badly that regular crafting rules were deemed less than necessary.)

>>96003732
pf2e is definitely better than 5e in most situations ime, and I've had a mildly better experience with the randoms I've met that play than with dnd, but there's obviously not nearly as many pf2e fans.

It has its problem, what with it feeling like seemingly every little quirk or ability must be a feat, or that (especially for skill feats) some are just horrible compared to others with no reason to ever take them, esp given pf2e players generally like "build tism" more so picking non-optimal options is very rare from what I've seen.

But overall the balance is much better and it doesn't entirely collapse in on itself just because you've gone beyond like 5e does.

pic is some art I just got for things in my pf2e homebrew game.

>>96012169
>OD&D
>B/X
>BECMI
>1E-5E
That's 8. 11, if we count 3.5, Essentials, and 5.5 as different editions.

>>96010398
Why do you think this is what determines strength of noncombat? 4E has more and better guidelines for noncombat than 5E does, doesn't have bounded accuracy mucking things up, every class has easy access to noncombat utility powers and rituals if they want them, and its skill system doesn't become fucking useless in the face of magic like it does in both 3E and 5E.

>>96014550
>Why do you think this is what determines strength of noncombat?

I don’t, it’s just the first example of something that was easily accessed and done in previous and subsequent editions but which 4e required paid DLC and a three-year wait to implement. Let’s not forget that this is the same edition that released without ten foot poles, chalk dust, and other classic adventuring staples; let’s also not forget that it’s the edition that played up its Skill Challenges as a great noncombat addition to the game and then proceeded to fuck up the math for them across at least four separate iterations.

Also let’s not forget that a strict RAW reading of the DMG means that a task’s DC, if not set by some other source, is instead set by PC level rather than the task itself. The same moderately difficult riddle has a different DC depending on whether it’s asked of a 5th level character (15), a 15th level character (22), or a 25th level character (29).

Compare/contrast 2e, where it’s a roll-under INT check; or 3e or 5e, where the riddle’s DC is set by DM fiat but based on how difficult he thinks the riddle is, independent of character ability.

>>96014550
>4E... doesn't have bounded accuracy mucking things up
lol
lmao

>>96015727
You don't need ten foot poles and chalk dust to have good noncombat, anon. Also, it's kind of hilarious citing 2e as an example of simple design, because it has unique subsystems for everything.

>>96015737
Correct. If I want to I can have +16 to a skill check at level 1.

>>96015877
>Also, it's kind of hilarious citing 2e as an example of simple design
No one said anything about simple design.

>>96015905
You...have no idea what "bounded accuracy" actually is, do you? It doesn't mean "small numbers", it means "predictable numbers". It means that if I'm a DM and a player has a 10th level character, I have a pretty good idea of what his modifiers are (best skill probably has a +9, or +13 if they have expertise) and so can design encounters around that. The "bound" isn't in the size of the numbers at a given level, but their range.

Compare/contrast 3e, where a 10th level character's best skill is difficult to predict thanks to the ubiquity of modifiers. At the most basic a skill modifier at that point could be +13 from skill points alone, but ability scores, racial modifiers, equipment modifiers, magic modifiers, circumstance modifiers, etc., could easily get a score up to +30 or more.

In a 5e game, I know that if I set a DC 20 skill check, a 10th level character without expertise will probably have a 50% chance of passing it. In 3e, I have absolutely no idea how hard a DC 20 skill check will be for any given 10th level character to pass.

>>95993874
>desperate retarded 4rry still trying after all these years
lol did they run out of ropes at the really strong ropes for hanging fat idiots store?

>>96016233
You were making 4e out to be a complicated mess. If you're referring back to prior editions, you're not going to get far.

>>96016233
Bounded accuracy means small numbers that increment slowly and don't leave the die roll. Your definition is wrong.

>>95992695 (OP)
No, but making them an hour long was.

>>96019536
This.

>>96016294
>You were making 4e out to be a complicated mess.
No, I was making 4e out to be bad at handling things out of combat when compared to its immediate predecessor or successor, particularly when comparing PHBs. Complexity wasn't a part of it.

>>96016446
That is not what bounded accuracy means *at all*.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140715051206/http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120604

"Bounded accuracy means small numbers" is a meme perpetuated by 4rries and Pathfinder nerds. The small numbers is technically irrelevent to bounded accuracy; if 5e tripled all modifiers it wold still be a bounded accuracy system because the numbers are still increasing in a predictable way.

>>96019595
The article agrees with my definition, not yours.

"we rest in the dungeon."
"well, this is an old-school D&D game. the rules have wandering monster checks, every other TURN. and just think about it: you're sleeping, in the dungeon? maybe you could walk me through it?"
"we just want to rest so we gain our health back, that's how it works in..."

fuck it. i'm a no-fun bore. i want to track rations, and torches, and things. i'm tedious and boring.

>>96019595
>I was making 4e out to be bad at handling things out of combat when compared to its immediate predecessor or successor, particularly when comparing PHBs
Your argument depends the opinion that hard rules for the majority of player interactions is preferable than less hard rules.
4e had as many rules for out of combat situations (save exploration which didn't come about until the Dark Sun book) as 2e did in it's first print run, but you are a 3.5 babby who only knows D&D based on the exception to the game line, not the rule.

>>96019671
No, it doesn't. It doesn't bring up the idea of keeping numbers small or within the dice roll; it's just how they chose to then implement the idea. But nothing in the article changes if you triple the numbers of 5e, like I said.

>>96020003
>but you are a 3.5 babby
Wrong again. I started playing when AD&D 2e was the name of the game. Keep swinging, though, you're bound to hit something eventually.

>>96020085
Yes it does, you're not paying attention.
>Nonspecialized characters can more easily participate in many scenes. While it's true that increases in accuracy are real and tangible, it also means that characters can achieve a basic level of competence just through how players assign their ability bonuses. Although a character who gains a +6 bonus to checks made to hide might do so with incredible ease, the character with only a naked ability bonus still has a chance to participate. We want to use the system to make it so that specialized characters find tasks increasingly trivial, while other characters can still make attempts without feeling they are wasting their time.
You cannot have this with tripled numbers.

>>96019595
>The basic premise behind the bounded accuracy system is simple: we make no assumptions on the DM's side of the game that the player's attack and spell accuracy, or their defenses, increase as a result of gaining levels.
4E does this.
>This does not mean that the players do not gain bonuses to accuracy and defenses. It does mean, however, that we do not need to make sure that characters advance on a set schedule, and we can let each class advance at its own appropriate pace. Thus, wizards don't have to gain a +10 bonus to weapon attack rolls just for reaching a higher level in order to keep participating; if wizards never gain an accuracy bonus, they can still contribute just fine to the ongoing play experience.
4E also does this by making everything progress at 1/2 level.

You're defining bounded accuracy as something it was defined specifically in opposition to. Don't be retarded.

>>95992695 (OP)
Narratively they make a ton of sense. Almost every story has a point right before the climax where the heroes catch their breath & shake off their stress/dress their wounds/get their shit together for the last push.

Mechanically? Shits fucked

>>96016233
>>96019595
"Bounded accuracy" was a buzz term used to imply that they were going back to the "good old days" of pre-3e where ACs and Accuracy bonuses for the most part fit into a 21 point "bounded" range of AC 10~-10 and THAC0 maxed out at the equivalent of +20 compared to the ACs of 0~50+ and +0 to +40 and higher Attack Bonuses due 3e and 4e being "unbounded."

>>95992695 (OP)
In 5th edition, where they take a whole damn hour? Yes.

In the superior 4th edition D&D, where they only take 5 minutes? No.

>>95997243
Why would you need to justify mechanics by tying them to a rule of nature? It's a game, not a simulator

>>96014462
>pic is some art I just got for things in my pf2e homebrew game.
aka shit you stole from fable

>>95993591
>Mearls is even famous for hating on 4es Warlord because nonmagical healing was too much for his tiny brain
I will never stop being fucking angry, Warlord was hands down one of the most fun classes in 4e, on top of being the perfect class for powergamers to play in a non-optimized group without overshadowing them since it's entirely based around making the whole group do cool shit.
The Battlemaster Fighter is a fucking travesty in comparison. They really needed to build on the Playtest Fighter moire instead of letting Mearls throw it out because he was enraged about the Fighter being able to do things.

>>96022300
In the absolute dumbest way, too. "You can't shout someone's arm back on!"

Find me a dismemberment effect in the books, Mike. And mind, according to everyone I talk to, the Player's Option material from 2e doesn't seem to count, what with being a weird one-off forgotten in the face of 3.x and all. It's little wonder that Regeneration is such a late game spell, since the official words from the books since the 1e DMG tells you not to get involved with overly detailed wound effects, occasional weird magic swords of sharpness or not.

(Warlords could probably still keep someone who has an arm taken off steady themselves and not end up an invalid for the massive amount of time said 2e books would normally take your character out of commission. And possibly reclaim some of the shock lost HP to get a tourniquet on, too.)

>>96010398
>Tell me how to do this in 4e.
Have you tried playing 4e?

>>96010398
>>96022442
>b-but thats a magic item
And? The rules are there from which you can intuit how to make a normal item. If you're so retarded you can't do this, then you shouldn't be playing TTRPGs. Maybe videogames are more your speed. But I'll help you with it.
>+0 normal weapon / Minimum Level 1st / Component Cost [item base price/2]

>>96022442
There's specifically one for mundane items.

>>95993665
>The warlord sucks for a wide number of reasons
>You are literally the first person I have encountered since the warlord released that has said the warlord sucks. It is near universally praised as an absolutely fun class to play from pretty much everyone who played 4e or has looked at the potential of the class
Since you like the warlord you might like the Commander class that coming out for PF2e

>>95993665
>The warlord sucks for a wide number of reasons
>You are literally the first person I have encountered since the warlord released that has said the warlord sucks. It is near universally praised as an absolutely fun class to play from pretty much everyone who played 4e or has looked at the potential of the class
Since you like the warlord you might like the Commander class that coming out for PF2e

short rests -> long rests
long rests -> long rests but in town

>>96022730
Damn, I missed that one. I lost my PDFs so I was just scrolling through old screencaps of powers and rituals I had handy.
So yeah, that anon can get fucked lmao

>>95997241
>People want 4e with mechanics wrapped in simulationist descriptions
4e actually did do this, it just separated the simulationist angle of abilities into a separate paragraph so that it wouldn't be confused for rules text. Yet another good thing 4e did that proved the 3.5e crowd was literally too dumb to read and probably shouldn't have been playing rpgs in the first place.

>>96022438
It was nice being able to run a functional non-magic party for once in 4e oddly enough. Didn't really come up often but it was there.
And yeah, the "shouting limbs back on" thing was always retarded since most magic healing can't even do that, and like you said dismemberment was generally just not a "thing" in 4e. Probably trivial to do anyways, but hit points have always been simulationist anyways, 4e was just the first time non-meat points magic healing was worth a damn.

These threads always make think if 4E had literally any name that wasn't "Fourth Edition Dungeons and Dragons" it would have killed pathfinder in the cradle and been a solid competitor for the top spot against whatever alternative hypothetical DND 4E. Probably not reaching it but making a good go of it. The name and drastic changes really were an original sin of rpg equivalent to taking an apple from the tree of knowledge.

>>96023469
You're delusional. Without the name, no one would have cared about that skirmish game with a light RPG veneer to it.
Pathfinder would have either taken the same spot of being a sanctuary for 3.5e fags stuck to their system, or continued to be a series of adventure paths if WotC kept using a permissive 3rd party license.

May I just add that one of THE best DnD products was the fucking COMIC BOOK series about that fighter who was all piratey with a cutlass and shit, that gets posted on /tg/ all the time because its fucking awesome. and and that back are the characters sheets... and its ALL 4e.

>>96020101
>I started playing when AD&D 2e was the name of the game
Then you already understand how stupid your post is, and are just trolling for (you)s.
Rare when people just admit they are shitposting.

>>96024221
>and that back are the characters sheets... and its ALL 4e.
What killed me was how all the classes were fucking Essentials classes, and their statlines absolutely didn't match their capability in the comics.
I would pay money in to a kickstarter for a new Fell's Five comic series.

>>96024379
AMEN. FELL'S FIVE STORY ENDED TOO SOON!!!

Why are you faggots talking about 4e when hour long short rests are a 5e thing

>>96024530
To compare and contrast about why hour long short rests are bone stupid. The context was crystal fucking clear for everyone else.

>>96024717
More or less this. It's rare our group has had an entire hour of resting time that wouldn't be just as safe going on for 8 hours. I think maybe one time when we had an explicit time limit on something.

>>96025787
This is exactly the problem with 5E short rests. Not only are the abilities it recharges lame as fuck more often than not, in any situation you aren't in danger when you spend an hour, you were already able to spend 8 or 24. Spending an hour resting in hostile territory will get enemies knocking at the door or setting traps to ambush you, and yet, that's where you need it the most. You have to break verisimiltude to allow it.

>>95993160
D&D cannot satisfy your desires (resource management) and their desires (interesting interactions) within the rules as written. This is because 5e's combat is absolute garbage. If you have a fight cantrip, and no higher level spells available (either because they've been cast or you're saving them for later), what choices do you have to make other than which enemy to attack (which is generally trivially solved as the enemy who currently has the lowest HP)?

Probably the easiest/best thing to do would be to introduce plenty of purchasable consumables like wands, healing potions, and spell scrolls, since these don't interact with the rest system, money in 5e is basically fake as is, and they give players options for what to do each round while also depleting over the course of a dungeon crawl.

Or just not play D&D, of course, which is the REAL best thing to do.

>>96003954
nta but ammo is so dirt cheap and plentiful that you basically never run out when it matters anyways

>>95993117
If it's not pvp and the other players don't care does it really matter?

>>95994160
>Now your caster is properly balanced and its amazing how many people fucking hate not being the overpowered god wizard who is obviously the Main Character of the group.
To be fair a major part of the appeal of playing a caster is being able to do awesome reality defying things that break things in half with correct application. Nerfing the fuck out of that makes it feel really lame in comparison to that. desu I think it would have been better to buff martials instead since then both sides of the divide get to roleplay as awesome badasses instead of mediocre losers

>>95993827
>4e does exactly that
You mean 3e does this, 4e didn't invent it. Everything good about 4e was taken from 3e and it added a whole lot of bad.

>>96027178
No, 3E doesn't do that.

>>95997847
When it comes to the cost of a monster potentially interrupting your rest the difference between an hour and eight hours is more or less immaterial so you might as well just do the full eight and get all your resources back

>>96026906
>the appeal of playing a caster is being able to do awesome reality defying things that break things in half with correct application
I thought it was playing a person capable of wielding magic.
This is just 3.pf brainrot writ large across D&D now. All versions must allow you to break the game and the world or else you arent playing a "proper" caster.

>>95994160
Based gamehaver

>>95993258
That's just Megumin with freckles and boobs

>>95994013
>They never were a thing outside of the white room. Coffeelocks require the DM to run a static world and ignore every piece of advice from the DMG to work.
All they require is that the DM follows the rules.

You don't actually need to never sleep to be a functional Coffeelock, btw. You can simply sleep four hours from 10PM-2AM, and then another 4 hours from 10AM-2PM, and you never reset from a Long Rest.

>>95992695 (OP)
Short rests are a bad solution to a problem created by a bad solution to another problem.

>>96027178
Please point out what part of 3e does this (You can't, because you're talking out of your ass like all 3efags)