Im interested in checking out 4e, what am I in for? What are the "required" books and resources?
Any pitfalls to look out for when GMing the systems?

>>95996807 (OP)
Alright, this is right up my alley
The core books (PHB 1-3, MM 1-3, DMG 1-2) plus the Monster Vault and Rules Compendium if you want the rules in book form are what you will want to get. These cover the vast majority of the rules, character material, things like that.
A good houserule you should include is a free feat, one of the Expertise feats for whatever the player wants for the character. On top of that, try to use the monsters from the Monster Vault if they appeared before the third Monster Manual. If you want to use a monster from the MM 1 or 2 that is not in the Monster Vault, you'll want to reduce their HP and increase their damage (how much varies by who tells you to do this, a common "halve HP, double damage" is tossed around but that's more for solo monsters, just play it by ear).
You do NOT need to use Skill Challenges. Just encourage unique skill usage and eyeball when they would effectively pass what would typically be a skill challenge and add that to XP at the end of the session.
There are a few websites that have basically all of the rules out there, iws.mx is a good one so check it out.
Now, for combat, lots of people complain they take too long. If they become too long for you, put your players on a timer (I have to do this in way too many systems, but people believe it is unique only to 4e for some reason).
Have fun! It's a good system, my personal favorite D&D edition and I hope you have a fun time with it.

The Player's Handbook or Rules Compendium (the latter is more up to date). Most generally cite the DMGs as having good advice, though you'll need to consult DMG to have un-fucked skill challenges.

(If you poke around, such as on the 4e subreddit, you can find resources to reduce costs. There's also a kind of online compendium that can act as a huge database, and all Dragon 4e volumes are on the internet archive, neither of which are required, but can be very useful.

There are a lot of old forum posts by 4e players about what they liked, hated, and what have you as well. Class Optimization guides can be useful to read through even if you don't plan on optimizing because it gives you an idea of where the break points of various classes are and where the most common things that you might want to change might crop up.

The DMG3 on a business card is absolutely necessary, because it fixed the encounter math. Without it, monsters were low-damage HP sponges that took way too long to take down. You can find it via Google by searching for "DMG3 on a card".

As to what you're in for, if you're the GM, you can be as gloves off as you want to be without any scrap of regret, at least after everyone knows what they can do. Also, encounters are way easier to run than in other editions.

>>95996807 (OP)
>what am I in for?
Boredom. Just play an actual videogame.

>>95996807 (OP)
>what am I in for?

I was a bit too young to give a shit, but I vaguely remember trying it and not liking it because it came off as "trying to play like an mmorpg" and in my teenage head I thought, "if it's going to act like that, wtf am I playing this when I could be playing WoW?".

As an adult I'm way more curious about picking 4th edition back up, if only to study and pick apart its' design choices.
I would also consider 4th edition to be the last official release of D&D to have cool art.

>>95996807 (OP)
>Any pitfalls to look out for
Completely ignore all essentials products except the monster vaults. All the essentials character options are terribly written and atrociously balanced, usually to the players' detriment.

>>95996807 (OP)
An incomplete game rushed to the market with broken math, rendering the first two years of release partially unusable.

>>95997515
I played it right from the get-go, anon. Bought that special collectors box that had the three original core books and me and my group played 4e until well after the release of 5e. We never had issues with it and the only tweak we did was just have a homebrew rule that you could use an action point to use an already used encounter power or two action points to use an already used daily power. That was basically it. Even after MM3 and the MV, we used the new math but felt no real difference in terms of combat and stuff.

>>95996807 (OP)
NTA, but same, except I want to run a tactical dungeon crawler with minis, grid maps and all that shit, the RPG part is there mostly to allow players to do shit a boardgame wouldn't account for.
>captcha: TYR HP
No, not like killing actual gods, I prefer a low power level.

>>95996807 (OP)
>Any pitfalls to look out for when GMing the systems?
most of the earlier monsters have fucked HP/damage math, if you use them as-is (and the players aren't powergaming hard with 3ranger/1warlord type shit) you will end up with fights the players should have won an hour ago but are still crawling along dealing and taking tiny amounts of damage

>>95997515
The "broken math" aspect literally only affected mid-Paragon and up, which was a higher powerlevel than basically anyone who played and hated 4e at the time touched.

Like it's a valid criticism, but it's not something that was actually relevant to the vast majority of tables. People just heard about the "broken math" and ran with the idea it had meaningful part in the system's failure.

>>95996807 (OP)
It being under the GSL makes software and websites really lackluster. Would not recommend for online play

>>95997855
This is also less broken than either surrounding editions, so it's a moot point.

>>95996807 (OP)
>what am I in for?
A flawed but basically pretty good with bits of brilliance system that people are going to unfairly shit on because it's not the same deeandee they were used to.

>>95996807 (OP)
There is no way to play the game as intended.
https://modenook.com/the-murdersuicide-that-derailed-4th-edition-dungeons-dragons-online/

>>95997576
>>95997855
I think the biggest actual example of the bad monster design was MM1 orcs, with their 'when reduced to 0hp, regain hp up to their bloodied value'.
Fighting any number of orcs is a fucking SLOG. I remember eventually just using intimidate to make them surrender.

>>95997176
This. Tabletop games simply aren't as entertaining as video games. That's why the video game industry took off the way it did while the tabletop industry is still largely niche and obscure.

>>95996807 (OP)
Player book wise, PHB1 and PHB2 are the go to books for baseline player options. PHB3 is fine, but the opinion on Psionics is split, and the non Psionic classes in the book are half baked at best. You might also consider the Adventurer's Vault if you want more options for magic items, and some of the Powers series of books for more player options potentially too, but I wouldn't say they're necessary for play in the beginning.

DM book wise, DMG1 and 2, Rules Compendium, MM3, Monster Vault and picrel. You don't really need much beyond this to run the game, but other options are out there, and picrel will make older MM books viable to use somewhat.

Have fun Anon! Let us know how your game goes!

>>95996807 (OP)
>I want to try something different than the piss I've been drinking
>But not too different
>Give me this time Piss No. 4
I will never understand people who act like different editions of DnD are some fundamentally different games with great creative leaps and massive overhauls of rules.
It's DnD. Ever since THAC0 got removed, nothing new happened. And that was almost 30 years ago now

>>95998340
PC and TTRPG gamers share the same demographic, I think TTRPGs are nice because they allow for agency and emergence in pure design space

TTRPGs are to video games what books are to movies

>>95996807 (OP)
Avoid masterwork armour and skills/abilities gained from backgrounds. They break an otherwise nearly perfectly balanced system.

>>95996807 (OP)
Apparently you’ll need like 10 books to review.

>>95998864
THAC0 is purely mechanical to resolve a roll and most groups used the alternative method of THAC0 - Target’s AC = Number needed to hit. Doesn't really change the meta or narrative much at all.

All editions of D&D have different metas and math, some better than others. For example, 4E and 5E are all balanced around the Adventuring Day-- if you fuck with that you will break the game's resource system. But something like AD&D2E and 3.pf only care about time, rather than codified Adventuring Day

>>95998785
Oh good, somebody posted the index card. This is all you need to fix the math. And maybe a calculator if you aren't good at calculations in your head. You still might want to ignore stuff like >>95998330 mentions because it doesn't actually make orcs scary, simply tedious. That's it. That's all you need.

>>95999011
>index card

>>95999039
Yes. There's this object called a printer which can create real-world facsimiles of digital objects. This allows you to keep one behind your DM screen even if you don't use a laptop.

>>95999063
Just use lined paper

OP back here this morning.

Thank you all for your responses, it has been very helpful. I'll be picking up the books recommended.
My playgroup and I try out lots of different systems, primarily OSR/indie stuff. This game is one Ive always been curious about because it feels like the black sheep of the lot. Skimming through the PDFs it looks like a pretty fun game.

I can see why it gets a reputation of being a mmorpg in tabletop form, but that isnt a bad thing for my group. We're all former mmo burnouts, so it should translate easily for us.

Any guidance on the narrative side of the game? Does it work similarly to pathfinder1e/5e d&d?

>>95999234
>Any guidance on the narrative side of the game?
For like making stories? You can read through some official adventures for ideas, but not many of them are actually good to run for one reason or another. Combat works best as set piece rather than random table occurrences, so fitting things in as you need is fairly easy as a DM. The DMGs have some good general advice for running a game on both mechanic and narrative too, which is the primary reason they're consistently recommended. Otherwise the Rules Compendium would be fine. So check those out for sure.

>>95999279
My apologies, I meant narrative such as "social encounters" with NPCs. Are the 4e rules similar mechanically to other games. Rolling to persuade/intimidate/etc

>>95999234
There's not much mechanical support for noncombat actions, so social stuff is done by the seat of your pants, but that's not a 4e specific thing. That's just D&D, so yes it does work similarly. If your players are even halfway decent roleplayers you'll be fine.

>>95999294
Oh! Largely, yes, it's similar to the standard. If you're looking for something more in depth you might expect to be doing a bit of homebrewing for it.

>>95999305
>>95999313

Good to know. I appreciate it. I look forward to getting to run it in a few weeks once everyones back from vacations.

>>95999085
An index is lined paper

>>95999681
Hey I got your index right here pal.

>>95997549
unrelated but i really wish dnd art stayed closer to 4e design mythos.
Something just tickles my brain seeing a bunch of townsfolk npc's react to these larger than life PC's, the magicalcafe trope really has cheapened a lot of the grandeur parts of a fantasy setting.

>>95996807 (OP)
I haven't seen it posted yet so I really recommend using the character builder to make characters
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CKFsyVOVDZ5J8F9HisVdPCF-ZS-9gEdC7Q8ryZIxxyU/edit?tab=t.0
It's very tedious to copy out all the powers you will have by hand.

>>96003207

Thank you

Im interested in running an mmorpg isekai campaign. 4e's nature looks like it could be a great system for that.

Thoughts?

>>96008283
Despite the 4e = WoW memery it doesn't really work like most MMOs. Defenders work by creating lose/lose scenarios for the targets of their marks. For example, Fighters will smack you if you don't attack them or if you attempt move away (canceling the movement). They smack hard enough that most creatures think twice about violating the mark. The are in no way forced to attack the Fighter ala an MMO taunt.

The party roles existed since RPGs began, 4e just was upfront about it.

>>96008283
It comes with specific roles codified, so sure. Fits the generic isekai RPG manga pretty well.

>>96008283
What part of the MMO experience are you looking to replicate?

>>95996807 (OP)
If you want to force yourself through it, ignore the RAW example/rule text and check how said rule is done as a example in adventures.
Yes, the DMG, Rules Compendium and even MM role+modifier rules are all written in a way if you actually follow raw (especially for skill challenges and item growth/loss guidelines) you are genuinely playing a version so bad the first 3rd party paid to use the rules discarded them for options close enough yet not gameplay toxic (ala using class abilities and roleplay correctly = the fancy sword out of a crystal that gives a extra weapon die or heart you carved out of a dragon whispering waifu noises in your ear and protects you from toxic women disappear for no fucking reason mid adventure despite not even finishing their quest/narrative hook).
MINIMUM use the index card if not outright re-calculating every monster.
Also https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xB7669sXA5RXw0yl-gn5m5g-ECZfZEGXd7ea05B8ZHw/ - a DM tldr/check list for if something feels off/is written shit + some decentish houserules (not entirely to my taste, but neither was 4e).
>>95997855
PC math side it starts at level 7 for regular play, not mid paragon paths (hell bulk of ED and Paras give passives and encounter powers worse then starting at wills, not to mention that its start of+when leaving loaded with little in the middle) and completely falls out of whack at 11, so literally start of Paragon.
Monster side, with the right (aka gameplay wrong) choices from the DM, if applying roles and modifiers by rules, the math is shit from level 1; dms just often realize its shit or intuitively dont actually follow the rules (unlike in 3e and 5e where ignoring cr and abilities till combat starts actually results in accidental gibs or unintended easy fight) thus the treadmill base math just results in sponge slogs at worst.
Lots also call it broken simply because treadmill math is objectively a bad design as it invalidates all build, strategic and operational choices.

is there a difference between essentials and the original release or just formatting

>>95996807 (OP)
Dungeons & Dragons 4E is the only D&D related book I can find complete for exactly 10 dollars on a nearby used bookstore. It's fun

>>95996934
>low-damage HP sponges that took way too long to take down. You can find it via Google by searching for "DMG3 on a card".

Probably not the desired outcome

>>96010223
Mostly class design and updated monster math. The Essentials classes mostly suck, except like Mage and maybe Protector. The Monster Vault books are great. MV1 entirely replaces Monster Manual 1 and MV Threats to Nentir Vale is also a nice addition. My only guess why MVTtNV looks like a base 4e book instead of an Essentials book is because they realized Essentials was wildly unpopular and so they tried to reel back on it right before the edition went out of print.

All feats and shit is all compatible both ways.

>>95996807 (OP)
It's literally D&D in it's most video gamey way possible. WoW was VERY popular during the time of its release, and the Wizard's Coast idea was to turn D&D into an MMORPG/PS2-like game.

All you need to know is, every class has 3 abilities: 2 basic class abilities and 1 super class ability used per rest.

If you want to see what it is about, play Neverwinter Online.

>>96010376
Also I guess because MV1 is formatted like complete dogshit. For some reason they decided that the Essentials books needed to be HUGE PRINT and so you could cut all those books in half page wise if they had just used to font size that the original books used and you could fit 2 or 3 stat blocks or a stat block, a lore blurb and a picture on the same page instead of struggling to fit a single stat block sometimes. Also the shitty ugly token pictures. I get MV came with some pop out cardboard tokens but how about printing the name on the token or just letting people guess instead of having big ugly low res token pictures glued to your already hyper stretched stat block.

MVTtNV went back to MM1-3 formatting and its so much better.

I like 4e and there's some things it did that 5e backslid on. Better than 3/3.5

>>96010223
essentials fixed the math for monsters but broke it for PCs, best way to play is using essentials monsters but PHB for players

>>96010373
Yeah, it was supposed to me MM3 on a card. At any rate, >>95998785 posted what it, so the rest of us can just lament that there won't be a DMG3.

>>96010406
>Two basic class abilities
>1 super class ability per rest

Not even Essentials is that stripped down. Fighters at least get several uses of power strike per encounter at higher levels.

Two At-Wills (3 if humans), one encounter at level 1, one daily at level one. Psionic classes other than the monk omit Encounter powers and use Augmentation points applied to At-Wills instead (and the third human at-will, if chosen, can't be augmented).

>>95998340
Not true at all. Video games are just easier to get into and eventually got better optics than something only nerds and children enjoy. The influx of lazy normies who barely know the rules when D&D became somewhat mainstream is an indictment of that.

>>96010846
You forgot racial and background powers. The average level 1 character has 2 at-will, 3 encounter, and 1 daily.

>>95996807 (OP)
Rob is a cool guy and you should check out 13th age.

>>96011851
At the very least, you can use the escalation die to speed up 4e combat.

>>96008360
I always laugh about the whinging that 4e added "MMO roles" to the game when MMOs got those from D&D in the first place.
Which when you take it to the logical conclusion turns the complaint into "D&D 4e sucks because it's too much like D&D" which is always funny.

>>96013605
It's not even a 1-to-1 thing, either since MMOs actually made the roles far more simplified and straightforward while TTRPGs still give the roles some breadth and variety.

>>96013605
>4e is the most idealized form of d&d because it pulls from MMOs which pulled some ideas from ttrpg classes.

One would think that the games the mmos pulled from would be closer to the idealized form instead of the transition from ttrpg to video game then back to ttrpg

>>96014360
>MY WIZARD HAS TO STAND BEHIND THE FIGHTER THIS IS LIKE WoW I CAN'T BELIIIIEVE IT!