I’m rewriting a system me and my friends are playing in to better suit what want. For the most part it’s gone over great but there is one thing that I am miffed about. They often mix two skills that are based off of different ability scores together and think they are too similar.

I would really appreciate getting some opinions. Thanks in advance.

Here is what I have written so far:
Investigation (Dex based sense roll)
“See the small details. Let nothing go unnoticed.”
Your ability to find small hidden details in varied chaotic environments and inferring further information from them. Be it hidden compartments or a concealed weapon, if they are hiding something out of sight, you’ll spot it.
Great for: Detectives, Scavengers, Spies.

Analyze (Int based sense roll)
“Analyze everything. Deduce the world.”
Your ability to parse and find details within readily available but dense information. Find someone hiding in a crowd, an anomaly in a data readout or calculate the trajectory of a projectile from the bullet hole. As long as the data is clear to you, you’ll find what stands out.
Great for: Analysts, Detectives, Forensic Scientists.

>>96011111 (OP)
checked

so, are you asking for help with the game design or just critique of the writing? in either case im not really sure what the difference between these skills is. my intuition is to separate anylize into a purely data/system analysis role for seeing patterns and trends and making predictions, and let investigation be for finding outliers, things that have been hidden/obscured and otherwise generating new points of data

as they're written now its really not clear where one begins and the other ends, especially when the domains have an implied 30% overlap (both great for detectives)

from a game design position too, either might be great for a detective, but if they're that similar there's not much reason for a detective to want both

Hiding (crucial) information behind a die roll is always retarded.

Rename investigation to perception.

>>96011111 (OP)
Well of course they are confused, it literally says the same thing
>find small hidden details
>find details
IMO that indicates you yourself don't understand how these skills are different

here is a free hint
>Investigation
>Notice details, let nothing go unnoticed
>ANALyze
>String evidence together, understand connections
that's actually the opposite of what analyze means but the average midwit wouldn't care anyway

works great and provide cooperation between PCs too
>DEX PC [rolls investigation]: hey I've *found* a dildo under the couch and lube in the drawer
>INT PC [rolls analyze] to GM: how can this help us?
>GM to INT PC: you *realize* the smell might provide more detail
>INT PC: what does the dildo smell like?
>DEX PC [rolls investigation]: I'm *noticing* an aroma of feces
>INT PC [rolls analyze]: Aha! It all comes together! The victim was someone who liked to fuck himself in the ass with a dildo!

>>96011946
cont.
but also what >>96011700 said
both of these skills shouldn't exist because they are taking away player agency and fun of investigating and putting it all together
it's fine if your specific game revolves around something else, say combat
sure diceroll the investigation away so the players can engage in what they like i.e. bashing heads

but if investigation is supposed to be the meat of the game, something your PLAYERS should engage with
there should be exactly 0 (ZERO) character skills that can dismiss the entire process by a single diceroll
have them look under the couch to find the dildo
have them smell the dildo, have them taste the lube
let them engage with the dildo to the fullest to form a complete picture on their own

>>96011111 (OP)
Both process data, but in different ways.

Analyze is clearly tool, output or instrument based. It's about processing large amounts of data, like a mentat.

Investigation is about intuition, inference, rationale, and is generally more analog than it is digital. There's more artistry to it. It might be interpreted as being more instinctual or experience based, like a hunter tracking a beast.


What you have here are two ways to arrive at informational accuracy in the game. Which may or may not have been your intention.

Rolling dice to understand the world around you is a great way for players to flub their rolls and know nothing and then you have to feed them something new for the game to continue anyway.

>>96011111 (OP)
>Find someone hiding in a crowd
Why is this under "analyze"? The distinction is already dubious, but this seems very obviously under the wrong skill.

>>96011220
Both, and yes I too feel there is some overlap. I’m trying to draw a clearer line between the two while still leaving some room for interpretation.

>>96011734
It was in the beginning but because of dnd they seem to think it was their only way to see the world, often leading to, ”No you cannot perceive how he is feeling, and no you can’t perceive the vibe in the room.” But I am considering changing it back.

>>96011946
Yeah there is a lot of overlap since they do similar things but are for different use cases. I didn’t want there to be just one stat for gaining information. Someone who is good at forensics shouldn’t also be good in reading through a mile long computer log for the one message out of place. (idealy)
I want to believe I have a clear destination in my head I just fail to put it on paper.

>>96012042
This is more what I’m trying to go for. Exactly.

>>96012122
I usually give them most normal information for free if it makes sense for them to know so they know what they are doing. Deeper information is usually kept behind a roll.

>>96012349
Because my idea of analyze is that you are great at picking out singular objects from a mass if samey data. But I agree, it’s a but confusing. The part about calculating bullet trajectory confuses my players too.

My aim with this skill system is to make players feel useful in both combat and roleplay. So even if you are a big stupid melee combat character you are still knowledgeable and able to contribute to an investigation, instead if just waiting for the next combat.

The image is the current skills.
But I’m working on adding a new Ability with its own skills attached since my beloved player so nicely asked for it. (They burnt my house down)

This is the new one, still not finished but the players seem to like what they see right now.

I would like to solve this problem first though before I introduce a new ability.

>>96012550
I like the matrix you've got going on. I've flirted with the idea of Disco Elysium style skills, but the biggest roadblock in that regard is that Disco Elysium is, in my opinion, hard-carried by the sheer amount of passive checks it does in play. This granularity of skills piles on, bit after bit, each piece not really too important by itself, but coming together to paint a bigger picture.

That approach is not really logistically viable in a TTRPG, especially with a group, unless you have some way to automate the rolling—and even if you automate it, you then have to deal with how you convey information disparity between people who've failed and succeeded. It's kind of a mess.

I really like the disco approach. I've done it in one on one, but for group play I can't make it work.

There's also the fact that it's a lot easier for disco to navigate the grey area of these skill checks because the player isn't asking to do anything, the devs have provided every option ahead of time. With too many skills in a TTRPG, it becomes easy for things to devolve into arguments (not necessarily aggressive ones, but still) over what is applicable where, and if other skills can give bonuses, etc etc.

>>96011111 (OP)
You have "find details" in two different skills. Why?

>>96011111 (OP)
Lose the D&D baggage, first off.

>>96012523
"picking out details from a large amount of information" is very nearly the definition of investigation. Your skills are redundant.

>>96011111 (OP)
You probably need to be very particular with your definitions for Investigation versus Analyze. Like you give a 'face in a crowd' example for Analyze, but that certainly seems like 'small hidden details in varied chaotic environment(s)'. I think I get what you're going for with Eagle Eyes versus a Microscope, but you need to really refine the distinction, or at least name them to be somewhat clearer as to their intended function.

>>96011111 (OP) (checked)
>Investigation (Dex based sense roll)
I don't agree on using Dex for that. I don't know what attribute system that you using but this seems like a WIS or PER based roll.
The names are fine if you explain them but I would just drop the vague names call it as it is.
>Investigation -> Check Surrounding
>Analyze -> Sort Data
I suspect that you trying to incorporate the "combat stats" into a detective game but suggest that you just rename them.
>>96012531
>>96012550
Yeah what I suspected. I get that you are ripping off Disco Elysium but the names of things there were always bad.

>>96012550
>Shiver
Gut Instinct
>Investigation
Spatial Awareness
>Volition
Resolve/Willpower
>Interfacing
Tinkering
>Physical Instrument
Athletics

>>96011111 (OP)
That's because they are too similar. Why is spotting someone carrying a concealed weapon investigate but spotting someone hiding in a crowd analyze? Those are two very similar tasks that should fall under the same skill.

What I would do is make analyze all about parsing data while investigate should be about gathering data.

Spotting something in the environment? Well, that's clearly new data, so it falls under investigation. Spotting that someone contradicted themselves during an interrogation? That's comparing what they just said to what you already know, so it falls under analyze.

>skill = roll plus bonus
Trash.

Might, Agility, Toughness, Intellect, Perception, Willpower.

Academics, Charm, Command, Covert, Investigation, Medicine, Professional, Science, Streetwise, Survival, Technology, Vehicles.

Talents don't gain bonuses from Abilities.

>>96011111 (OP)
If you need to write a definition for something in your game, it means you failed at naming it properly.
What a monumental waste of pents

>>96018868
Somehow I missed the part that it is also supposed to be real time "Where's Waldo".

>>96018868
A contradiction is also new information.
There is no information you can receive via your senses that isn't new information, by definition. Therefore, everything falls under investigation.

I would also look up City of Locusts the DLC that ballooned up for Disco Elysium.
It focused on Cuno and Cunoess and they had different skills and ways traits manifest.

But some things were th same and it is a good way of showing indivudal customisation.

>>96020914
/thread