D&D clerics implicitly are formally-inducted parts of religious organizations before they get magic, but this contradicts the sort of holy people they are based on. St. Francis of Assisi wasn't part of the Catholic Church when God called him and he started acting wacky, and he could fly (Catherine of Siena, who could also fly, was never formally adopted by the Church). Sufi mystics aren't mullahs. Moses and Jesus weren't rabbis or priests.

The job of a priest, sacristan, etc, is fundamentally different from a holy person who goes around performing miracles all the time. If you're a priest, your job is basically to make sure God or the gods aren't mad at the population, which tends to boil down to ritual and rules. Miracle-workers, on the other hand, tend to be outsiders, since you don't need miracles to appeal to tradition; an outsider is more willing to shake things up, but needs something to prove God (or the gods) are on his/her side.

Also, the flavor of being chosen by a god to do their work is more interesting than being the one millionth temple-adopted orphan.

>>96018322 (OP)
That would be the Saint class from Wolves of God.
>Holy men and women of Godly will, the Saint is a rarity even among the pious monks and nuns of the minsters. While every honest monk tries to live a Godly life, a Saint is specially graced with a faith and holiness that lets them bring forth miracles to aid the faithful. A Saint most often comes from the clergy of a minster, but even common ceorls or warriors who have put down their spear may find the grace of God in their hearts.

>>96018322 (OP)
While D&D Clerics generally have Christian religious organization initially with specific focus on some Teutonic oddities, their actual worldbuilding station is a rough mix of pagan notions of various spirits being nigh-constantly addressed in pursuit of various effects. The aggressive push for monolatry has been a constant frustrating middle-ground for the inspirations.

>>96018322 (OP)
okay, but a baptism or exorcism isnt generally considered to be a miracle. a typical cleric isnt a specifically chosen divine agent with a direct line to and mandate from the big man upstairs, they're someone who's studied and trained to maintain a god's earthly domain. And that's generally more of a day-to-day thing than a one-off holy quest, but they generally prep for both.

the "mission from god" type is typically the paladin, whos far better equipped for your usual violent schism, tyrant overthrow, dragon-slaying or cult supression. they're also held to a higher spiritual standard, and arent generally required to understand the scripture because its not their job to know who's right and wrong because god made that call when he pulled the trigger on the fire-and-forget evil seeking missile.

>>96018446
In D&D, explicitly, most priests are not clerics. They are not just priests trained to perform a couple of magical rites.

>>96018322 (OP)
That would be a problem for the gods who have a system like that though. Other gods that allow their clergy to wield divine powers (instead of just the occasional remarkable individual) will have a competitive advantage over them.

>>96018458
The gods who do more shit get more followers, yes. That is true whether or not clerics get picked out by their gods. Presumably the gods are not all omnipotent with infinite magic to hand out/use, or the setting would look quite different from medieval Europe.

>>96018467
As I understand it, the traditional d&d assumption is that giving spells to clerics has very little cost to gods. Instead the clerics themselves provide most of what is needed and a lot of training/xp is required to be a powerful cleric.

Then it makes a lot of sense that the clergy has these powers. They both belong to an organization suitable for providing such training, and their membership indicate loyalty to the deity in question.

>>96018455
and most soldiers arent fighters, and most tribesmen arent barbarians, and most wanderers arent rangers, and most thieves arent rogues, and most scholars arent wizards, and most cultists arent warlocks, and most nudists arent druids.

having class levels is an abstraction to represent being in the top 15% or so, with exceptional potential. its not a diegetic trait people train or qualify for any more than people describe their injuries in terms of hitpoints

>>96018322 (OP)
>D&D clerics implicitly are formally-inducted parts of religious organizations before they get magic
Where is this implied?

>>96018549
The books, you can pick them up and read through them.

5e:
>Not every acolyte or officiant at a temple or shrine is a cleric. Some priests are called to a simple life of temple service, carrying out their gods' will through prayer and sacrifice, not by magic and strength of arms. In some cities, priesthood amounts to a political office, viewed as a stepping stone to higher positions of authority and involving no communion with a god at all. True clerics are rare in most hierarchies.

>When a cleric takes up an adventuring life, it is usually because his or her god demands it. Pursuing the goals of the gods often involves braving dangers beyond the walls of civilization, smiting evil or seeking holy relics in ancient tombs. Many clerics are also expected to protect their deities' worshipers, which can mean fighting rampaging orcs, negotiating peace between warring nations, or sealing a portal that would allow a demon prince to enter the world.

>Most adventuring clerics maintain some connection to established temples and orders of their faiths. A temple might ask for a cleric's aid, or a high priest might be in a position to demand it.

"Maintain" some connection suggests they were members of the temple/order before going out adventuring; "some priests [...] not by magic or strength of arms" implies that clerics are priests who ARE working through magic/strength of arms.

>>96018322 (OP)
What you're describing is the 3rd edition Favored Soul who is a divinely chosen champion of a god (even a potentially unwilling one), play an edition that's not the most watered down baby shit imaginable if clerics all being Bishops and Cardinals and the Pope annoys you
https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/classes/baseCd/favoredSoul.html

>>96018620
>just play this random splatbook class that also is worse than a Cleric
Nah.

>>96018322 (OP)
Thats a stupid distinction to make, it can be either.

A lot of saints attributed miracles WERE ordained before doing their preported miracles like St. Patrick and driving out the snakes from Ireland.

Id assume a lot of them would be friars. Those who take vows, but do interact with the community unlike monastic monks. Though others would be laymen who reached some divine revelation like a joan of arc or were former priests who had more stationary duties before whatever compelled them to travel.

>>96018455
That's never been true.
Over the last 40 years, I've run and played countless officially published modules. More often than not to the point of the exceptions being notable, clergymen in towns were always PC-classed clerics with spellcasting.
Even in 3rd-ed where WotC was forcing module writers to use the NPC classes and town creation tables, local clergy were still a adepts with spellcasting.

>>96018322 (OP)
That is literally just a Favored Soul aka the sorcerer version of Cleric.

>>96018637
One could argue that adventure locations aren't statistically representative for the entire setting. Interesting places tend to be chosen. I would blame bad writing from the authors, except I don't really know enough about how pre-third editions represented normal people.

>>96018694
The smarter argument, however, is the exact opposite because presentation defeats speculation. It doesn't matter where you go and what you do. It doesn't matter what level you are, if you find a town with a church the head of that church will be a cleric with spellcasting.

> I don't really know enough about how pre-third editions represented normal people.
Just looking at the BX, 1E and 2E modules I have on my shelf next tome, there are:
Normal Men who had between 1d8-1 to 1d8+1 hit points and fought as 0th-level characters (same to-hit as a non-fighter).
Men-At-Arms who had between 1d8+1 to 1d8+3 hit points and fought as 1st-level fighters.
Noncombatants who didn't fight and had between one half of a d6 to 1d8 hit points. Usually reserved for children.
Characters with PC levels, usually pretty low level unless the module is for high level characters and the NPC is presented as a possible henchman or hireling.

No such thing as should.

I disagree it makes sense for them to be priests.

>>96018322 (OP)
surprise, the flavor for many d&d classes is fucked and muddled.
all classes fight but there's still a "fighter" class
monks are wuxia but also settings default to european, you might well assume there are no fat monks making cheese and wine (or that, if they do exist, they are ALSO able to do wuxia shit).
wizards aren't particularly wise (and most of the lore about them involve them being extremely unwise)
"sorcerer", "warlock" and "wizard" aren't just three words for same thing.
(lore) bards and even druids actually feel more like mage (wizard/sorcerer/warlocks) from other media.
paladins are just the protagonist class with the power to believe in themselves
nobody has even decided wtf are rangers supposed to be
barbarians are ooga booga retards even if it started as Conan: the class, and Conan was never like that. Plus the whole "barbarian" = retard is weird considering the loaded history of the term, but hey let's just make mexican orcs

>>96018322 (OP)
You'd think with enough established gods in setting that someone could take five minutes to write some additional lore on how they like to pick their clerics. It'd go a long way to actually making "divine" an interesting concept but it's just as vapid as Primal and Arcane as hard concepts

>>96021724
Why should you assume that there are no fat monks making cheese and wine? Why should you assume that if they do exist, they should be able to do wuxia shit?

>>96018455
most priests aren’t clerics but most clerics are priests

>>96022226
That is a common assumption, but very little of the printed D&D material actually supports the claim.

>>96022232
The fact that anyone is a blacksmith or cobbler, etc., implies that Clerics are not overwhelmingly common, given that Mending is a cantrip.

>>96022599
Cantrips were the fast track to NuD&D's Metrofantasy worldbuilding, and I hate them for it.

>>96018322 (OP)
How did this affect your last session?

>>96022635
The future is now, old man.

>>96022661
I want off Mx Bone's Wild Ride.

>>96022232
It is stated pretty clearly in the 5e player's handbook that few priests are clerics. That is probably setting dependent though, in Forgotten Realms nearly all priests seem to have at least basic spells, as the gods are more "hands-on" then in some other settings.

>>96021775
Forgotten Realms has a lot of old lore around how religious orders work. A lot of people join a temple for various reasons and only get powers if the god of the temple takes an interest in them, the rest become guards, get admin jobs, leave the temple, etc. Sometimes the gods pick random people that have characteristics they like

>>96022767
Every player's handbook makes that claim to one degree or another. It is completely irrelevant because it never plays out for any published setting.
This goes back to OD&D, and has been true for every edition between then and now. The PHB gives an opening for the DM to have non-cleric priest NPCs, then every piece of published material that has towns with temples have those temples manned by spellcasting clerics.
The only time there has ever been more than maybe one or two expectations per edition was early 3.0 era when WotC was forcing module writers to use the random town tables in the DMG.

>>96022767
Every player's handbook makes that claim to one degree or another. It is completely irrelevant because it never plays out for any published setting.
This goes back to OD&D, and has been true for every edition between then and now. The PHB gives an opening for the DM to have non-cleric priest NPCs, then every piece of published material that has towns with temples have those temples manned by spellcasting clerics.
The only time there has ever been more than maybe one or two exceptions per edition was early 3.0 era when WotC was forcing module writers to use the random town tables in the DMG.

>>96018322 (OP)
very first edition of drakar och demoner does this. The holy man class can only be taken if you roll equal to or under your characters KRAFT (value between 3 and 18) divided by 2 on a D100. It's also in addition to one of the four other classes and gives you access to miracles and some magic that fits the gods portfolio

>>96022990
>drakar och demoner
Never heard of it, post the pdf.

>>96022991
https://mega.nz/file/pwZEAKbY#iXKZiTqEVbSJhBhkYPT4vLv-JUkXcVyRQY6AdyzU6jc

there's a comprehensive collection of the old versions of the game (obviously not the currently in print one) on internet archive as well

>>96022801
>It is completely irrelevant because it never plays out for any published setting.
Yes, published settings are warped compared to homebrew, for a variety of reasons, the most prominent of which is that in a homebrew setting, I can craft material around the party, which may or may not include a cleric. In a published setting, everything has to assume that there isn't a member of X class. D&D has always been mechanically structured around an assumption of readily available magical healing, and clerics are the healbot class, so you get omnipresent clerics.

>>96018322 (OP)
Esotericists say Christianity is anti-magic and anti-psi this is why you don't see things you read in mythology anymore in fact the nosebleeding and death is because of the field too.

>>96018322 (OP)
>St. Francis of Assisi wasn't part of the Catholic Church
>Catherine of Siena, was never formally adopted by the Church
???
By baptism one enters the mystical body of Christ, the Church.
If you mean they werent part of a religious order, Francis when on to found one, Catherine was a third order dominican.
>Jesus weren't rabbis or priests.
Jesus is the eternal High priest offering the true sacrifice to God.
As to 'rabbi' it is not a religious position, it just means 'teacher', so they often called Jesus rabbi.

>>96039227
>St. Francis of Assisi wasn't part of the Catholic Church
If you cut off the sentence in the middle, you change the meaning.
>Catherine was a third order dominican.
Third Order Dominicans are lay people, dipshit.

>By baptism one enters the mystical body of Christ, the Church.
>Jesus is the eternal High priest offering the true sacrifice to God.
God, I hate you religious faggots, you can never actually engage with the reality of your religion, you have to go "well, actually, Jesus was magical bullshit. Actually, everyone is a priest, because they're all baptized." Could you fuck off and let people who can use words the normal way talk?

>>96018322 (OP)
I don’t disagree, but they really need a name change in that case. They should be more akin to prophets.

>>96022635
The Tippyverse concept was first developed under 3.5 rules, which didn’t have unlimited daily cantrips.