Harry Blooder edition

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>>96001393
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>Thread Question:
What's your favorite blood magic path/ritual/combo?

>>96019029 (OP)
>TQ

I really like Weather Control. It feels very vampire and is also quite strong without being overly gimmicky or something you spam in a fight.

>>96019029 (OP)
I've always thought that "By Our Command It Breaths" and "Sculpting the Perfect Servant" were supposed to be used together.
One creates the gargoyle and the other allows you to boost its attributes, including appearance. The humanity penalty doesn't even matter because gargoyles are put on the road of service anyway.

>>96018995
You can tell from the face the kitsune is making that she's imagining the woof and the bastet kissing

>playing Dark Ages as a newbie Caitiff
>go to Jerusalem
>beast keeps saying "Yeah this shit is wrong, keep away from a lot of these holy sites"
>don't trust that inner voice one bit, he's an asshole, instead offer a prayer before touching the Wailing Wall
>mfw

>>96019255
>beast keeps saying
What? A vampire's beast doesn't speak anon, it's a Beast.

Man Visscitude sucjs hard in 5e. It's not as bad as arms of Ahriman though.
Is it just me or is it odd that they turned the iconic abilities of the main sabbat clans into primarily combat disciplines and then made them suck?

>>96019278
Just Gangrel things.

>>96019303
>Gangrel are schizophrenics that talk to themselves
Explains a lot actually.

>>96018813
Here is the map.

>>96019278
Well I meant more emotionally speak, the ST was like "you feel a really uncomfortable feeling in the pit of your stomach that staying here was a problem" kind of my beast talking to me, rather than actually going full Malkavian and having a proper conversation with it

>>96019255
Why did your undead ass think it was a good idea to go to the Holy Land after becoming a demon(according to commonly understood scripture at the time)?

>>96019029 (OP)
TQ: Focused mind is pretty interesting and spirit has lots of potential.

>Want to invite some friends to play Promethean
>Autistic level 2 and had trouble trying to DM
>See tips on how to DM with autism
>Basically I need to train better my improve and world building, so I wont need to multi-task anything and make up everything on the spot.
>See hope in finally being able to form groups to play all those games I could not find a group for.

Now I just need to focus on leaving my Burnout, and we are sailing.

>>96020841
The most prolific authors and worldbuilders of age past dealt with burnout via a combination of cocaine(because it's less addictive than sugar) and limited entertainment options.
You could probably acheive something similar by separating from the internet, going no-nut, and abusing coffee until your city and plot are fully fleshed out.

>>96020841
Best of luck; I know quite a few autistic people whose lives greatly improved by getting into RPGs .

>>96020642
He's on path of heaven, embracing that suffering builds character mindset and refuses to accept he's the monster that so many claim he is
That, and since he is still really fresh on being embraced, he wanted to visit the priest that raised him when he was mortal one last time before it was too late since the priest is pretty much on his last legs due to age and sickness

>>96020864
>via a combination of cocaine

>>96019303
A talking beast is more a Ravnos thing, I imagine, since their whole bane is their beast being more intelligent.
I recall the Ravnos Revised Clanbook even stating that's why they really don't like using Animalism 5 to transfer their beast to someone else. Turning someone into a feral animal for a while is one thing, said feral animal carrying your darkest desires with it is another thing altogether.

>>96021068
>Turning someone into a feral animal for a while is one thing, said feral animal carrying your darkest desires with it is another thing altogether.
Sounds like a good way to spice up the bedroom.

>>96021093
Anon, your beast won't want to fuck you unless you're gay. It's literally You.

>>96021117
>Anon, your beast won't want to fuck you
And what makes you think I give a shit about its consent? Also if it is just you that's just masturbation with extra steps.

One of the players in my H:tR game wants her imbued character to have a 3 dot mentor who is also her therapist. It got me thinking, is it even possible to practice therapy ethically while being a hunter? You either have to gaslight your clients about the supernatural bullshit they see, or risk their lives and your profession by telling them the truth.

>>96021147
>is it even possible to practice therapy ethically while being a hunter?
Yes all you need to do is not to fuck around with the supernaturally involved.

Thoughts on Geist?

>>96021147
Why wouldn't they just be a therapist-turned-hunter that started giving fellow hunter much need psychological help? imbued can sense other imbued and it's not like there's any moral dilema in helping the guys Already hunting monsters.
Unless you're assuming the therapist somehow kept their actual civilian job while also being a globe-trodding monster-hunter. In which case I have to ask how the fuck they managed that?

>>96021181
From what I read it's pretty neat but it suffers some power bloat in 1e.

>>96021147
It sounds more like a hard judgment call
Some can take it while others would crumble and become werewolf chew

The guy who's actively trying to get away from a lasombra looking to embrace him? Get him in quick because thouse sucker's don't quit and no matter what happens he's fucked
Wife of a loving husband and mother of three? Gaslight until the werewolf goreing three ancient elders "12th gen Noz shovelheads" is nothing but a bad dream

>>96021147
The actual problem, is what do you do if a fucking dracula comes in and needs therapy?

>>96021234
He just can't get over his dead wife

>>96021243
You can just get to her in the underworld.

>>96021234
A swift treatment of cardiac acupuncture and solar therapy will take care of all his psychological problems.

>>96021234
Get the Redeemer creed on it. With the Avenger/Defender/Judge out back just in case.
Make a business out of it. Soon enough, you'll have demons lined up for their turn, good luck with that amount of baggage.

>>96021234
Innocent and Redeemer creed imbued might be good for that, since they are all about finding the man within the monster. But I might make the mentor an Avenger since the PC wants to be a Defender and I like the conflict it introduces for the therapist's character. Maybe they cope with having to gaslight their clients by eliminating the supernatural root of their suffering, where possible.

>>96020864
I am all in for limited entertainment.

Not so much for cocain though. And Caffeine gives me anxiety.

I have been trying herbal teas though. And they are working.

>>96021181
It and CtL were my favorite things to come out of NWoD.

>>96021355
>Caffeine gives me anxiety
How often do you go out to walk? There's a good amount of research that caffaine/adrenal sensitivity can stem from lacking the hormones produced in heavy cardiovascular exercise. It's recommended for humans to go for a 7 mile walk daily to keep our metabolism in working order("Steps" in an office don't count, it has to be an actual walk).

>>96021394
Ctl is the only splat I've collected every book
Even got the lighter

>>96021457
Walking is super hard for me right now.

I just moved to a place in front of a busy 2 lane street.

I have been thinking about trying to learn dance at home though.

Thoughts on the Luxury (CofD) merit?

>>96021457
>It's recommended for humans to go for a 7 mile walk daily
Who the hell has that kind of free time?

>>96020924
There's rituals to allow you to larp religion as a kindred. I know the Muslims have it with the Ashirra in Mecca. Maybe check the supplements?

>>96021181
Ran it, enjoyed it, threw the "ghosts aren't real people" lore in the trash.

Went in expecting ghost themed stand battles, got a character drama. 8/10 would run again.

>>96019029 (OP)
What ARE psychic powers?
I know, they're a numina that humanity can use, but bpwhy do they exist? Sorcery is magic under heavy conditions and rule, and True Faith if belief, but how did Psychics come in lore wise.

Did an elohim do a funny when making this into the fundamentals of reality.

>>96022196
Psychic power operates of the same principle that allows you to spend willpower points to auto-succeed a roll, willpower over matter. It's human will-working without an avatar there to assist you(which might make it True Will-working since no one is 100% sure avatars aren't just alien parasites or chaos elementals). Where sorcery is that plus using the metaphysics of the universe as a booster to get a wider range of effects, psychic powers is just raw mind/soul over matter.

Tangently relating to Tremere shenanigans. What could be some possible results of breeding thinbloods with ghouls/revenants? If they can make gargoyles out of tzimisce, gangrel, and nosferatu then they can probably make a more potent dhampir.

>>96022412
It'd just be a dhampir. Dhampirs don't generally inherit the supernatural traits of their non-vampire parent.
To make hybrid-dhampirs, you'd need to merge living specimens together like how the tremere made gargoyles

>>96019291
Wait until you see what they have done to Thaumaturgy.

I am all in for transforming some paths into rituals. But not in a way that netfs the disciplines


Balancing the clans was an stupid Idea, the cool thing about vampire is being able to create either more Social Oriented, mind oriented, and combat oriented. So being unbalanced was cool.


I also felt like the game was always more narrative focused, and trying to balance combat is more a tool to invite D&Do players

>>96022463
>trying to balance combat is more a tool to invite D&Do players
That was most likely the goal. Notice how they called the new edition WoD5 instead of going with a subtitle like the previous 2 editions?

>>96021853
Never heard of it, what does it do?

If a big hat Mage tells your cabal to go capture a widderslainte before it awakens so he can gilgul him, but it turns out to be a little kid (maybe a toddler), how would you react?
Mind you the gilgul in this particular case has a decent chance at killing the kid too, not just destroying his Avatar. And if it doesn't kill him, it might leave him brain damaged, catatonic or traumatized.

>>96020642
>become demon
>go to holy land
>let the holiness purify you
>can hopefully now go too heaven

>>96020841
create some generic character profiles for different people you could encounter (police, workers, gangsters, hobos, etc) and then just fill in the unique parts as you go.

so it could be like:

they encounter a Police template 3. he introduces himself as James, so you write James - Police template 3 on a piece of paper if you want to reuse James and then under it you just add any additional information that comes up. so if you throw out that James has a dog then you add has dog under his name. this way you can create a lot of NPCs really quickly and keep track of them.

if officer James becomes notable enough or takes enough space in the chronicle then you can upgrade him into major NPC status and give him his own character sheet and story

>>96021181
Can a Bereaved have an unrequited love as their obsession?

>>96019291
not really, V5 has a very, very specific vision on what VTM should be and anything that fals outside of that vision (like the sabbat) get's either scrapped altogether or turned into dogshit. they are backpedaling on all that but they're very much dragging their feet with it.

>>96022839
Before M20, there is no chance of that Widderslainte will ever be a helped. Which makes sense since her literal soul, her upbringing and her own nature will be twisting her.
In M20, there is a chance but that chance is essentially she will live a life full of anguish as everything and everyone around her will try to twist her until she dies...and born again to repeat it.
There is a reason why Nephandi get eternal imprisonment and torment in Hells.

>>96023205
Eh my table mostly ignores M20 lore.
I guess my question can be otherwise phrased as "How would you react to participating in magickal infanticide?"

>>96021903
You can just run - it's like half in hour.

>>96022882
Thank you anom. That is actually a pretty good tip.

Could simplify my life better and reduce the number of profiles to "Human", and "Promethean" ? Because I really struggle with managing a big number of things.

Later if I get used I might add Human 2, Promethean 2, and etc. But idk if I would manged a lot of variations.

Of course. This would not count with named characters previously planned.

>>96022106
The what lore?

>>96023650
NTA but I imagine they mean that in 2e ghosts aren't like the souls of the dead or whatever, they're psychic impressions. They are still real people though. Ghosts being people is like the whole point of that game.

>>96023664
The whole soul thing in CofD 2e is kinda convoluted anyway. They say the soul is not the self, just a "liquid" that takes the shape of its container, which is why a person doesn't change if their soul is stolen and replaced with a different one. But they also say stuff like a Deviant's soul is broken, that can logically only mean the container.

>>96023716
Only if you think souls are literally a liquid

Are you under the impression that components parts of a whole are unable to fail or something? You've never seen a battery leak?

>>96019848
I lovehate this schizogame so much

>>96022196
Metaphysically speaking I'm pretty sure they're literally the exact same thing as sorcerer/linear magic. They exist because their users think they exist and they operate the way they do because that's what the user believes in. If a psychic instead believed in Chinese folk magic or whatever they'd be Chinese folk magicians.

>>96023280
At my table one of the players (ancient greek apallonian mystic) waited for his cabal mate to go through the cycle of reincarnation and tracked him down each time, killing the kid and "reimbursing" the parent with a new kid. I ruled that it took three cycles of reincarnation to stick the purification and gave the widderslainte player the Flashbacks flaw on his next sheet. They're in the Dark Ages right now and the former widderslainte and immortal greek have figured out teamwork.

>>96022196
We're not sure
Our best answer is that the Technocracy accidentally put them into the Consensus and because there were loads of myths about mind powers it stuck. Our next best answer is that some normal-ass unenlightened people made them and the OoR rolled with it long enough that now the techies can't get rid of it. Our next best answer is that they're a hold-on from before the Order of Reason or the Hermetics that have managed to stick around. They just exist. The powers they do are not new, but their description as scientific in nature is.

>>96022196
it's just another type of sorcery, it's why it's always in the sorcerer books

if a rule calls for sorcerers they mean both linear/hedge mages and people with psychic powers

technically theurgy is also there but it's kinda the red headed stepchild of linear magic who hangs around with those roudy hunters instead

>>96023766
the campaign setting is just an excuse for you to have werewolves destroy the onceler's thneed factory.

>>96019848
This reminds me, how does this work in CofD? Space obviously exists there, but does it have a Gauntlet?

>>96023833
>Vampire Oncler vs werewolves
someone call tumblr

>>96023890
I assumed more pentex, though I know little about them.

>>96023894
Some of the Pentex Board members are vampires

>>96023926
yeah okay, makes sense.

>>96021188
Zoom sessions

>vampire women's pussies canonically secrete blood as lubricant
Must result in some awkward situations if you fuck one without knowing.

>>96022839
Do what needs to be done, otherwise he'll end up killing a lot more people some of whom will be children too.

>>96019029 (OP)
setite usabti and revelation of midgard seem both very interesting, but i never had the chance to use them ingame

>Grimgroth didn't actually want to betray the order of hermes
>he just couldn't stand staying in mistridge for another day because another mage kept picking fights with him despite the siege to the point where he prefered to take his chances with the canons while unshielded
mistridge's mages must have really been a extra class of stupid assholes

>>96024268
She'll tell you she was a virgin.

>>96023771
>>96023806
Not everything is because of consensus. Consensus is a thing painted onto true reality, not the true reality itself. Static magic is only affected by consensus if the sorcerer is trained by mages. Sorcerers trained by other splats(like kinfolk shamans) ignore consensus completely.

Is there any way for a mage to sort of combine Traditions/Paradigms? If you want a character that borrows elements of Hermetic, Dreamspeaker, and Verbena magic and beliefs, is that possible?

>>96025280
yeah that's just a merit

>>96025280
It's called the "dual traditions" merit anon. Getting trained by 2 paradigms is just 7 freebie points.

>>96025280
Yes, it's called syncretism and it's usually how you get magic to begin with. That said... sounds like you're just another Hermetic plundering other traditions, since you start with Hermeticism and that tends to stand out and yell everything else down (see also, the structure of the game and how it attributes working of the will to everything even though there are a lot of traditions listed that wouldn't really go for that).

>>96025280
to what the other anons said the etherites also have a unqiue merit in the tradition books that allows them to explain all other tradition magic in their own Paradigm that verbanna is obviously using psychic powers, virtual adepts and hermetics are the same thing they just don't get it, odin was a supressed genius like tesla etc etc

>>96025280
>s there any way for a mage to sort of combine Traditions/Paradigms?
There is but it most boils down to taking inspiration from the other traditions when writing your own mage explanation of what magic is and how they can do it.

my coterie

>>96025448
All Nosferatu using mask of a thousand faces

How do you handle Revenants in the modern nights? I want to make a plot about them taking over a small town in a 30 days of night situation for a hunter game and need some more ideas to flesh out the plot.

>>96025448
>>96025582
All Nosferatu coterie or one Malkavian with Chimerstry? Call it.

>>96025672
Why would Revenants take over a town? I guess it would sense if they were day “spotters” for a Sabbat pack. But if you’re doing crossover-agnostic, you just have them be a bunch of vampire LARPers attempting to show their superiority of the weak and fragile humans.

I think it would be really funny if Jason Voorhees or Sadako or something tried murdering some stereotypical horror movie teenager but at the last moment they turned out to be a Garou.

>>96025705
>Why would Revenants take over a town?
The town has a major supernatural location, a Gangrel Elder managed to fuse itself with the region and the townspeople are of the main things keeping it dormant, they want to take over the town because they have potential to be a new family.

>>96025672
I'm somewhat meh on revenants myself. I don't hate them but I find their uses to be fairly specific. They're good as an Elder flex, but most are best used as backup dancers. I did once use the Bratoviches as a hillbilly murder family plot.

Seconding >>96025705 , Revenants produce their own vitae, so why would they try to take over a town, least of all in 30 Days of Night fashion?

>>96025798
Just so I understand you correctly, they want to take over the town to create another revenant family out of the townsfolk? And the townsfolk are already halfway there because some Gangrel pulled a mini-Ennoia?

>>96025672
>>96025705
Always go full stereotype. They need a small town Texas Chainsaw conspiracy for the space and labor to operate their kinfolk farm.

>>96025346
I thought Odin was a vampire.

>>96025820
>>96025838
>Just so I understand you correctly, they want to take over the town to create another revenant family out of the townsfolk? And the townsfolk are already halfway there because some Gangrel pulled a mini-Ennoia?
That's the gist of it, they're sending the Revenants because of a holy site is keeping the proper vampires away from the city.

>>96025934
There were at least 3 different Odin's.

>>96025934
and two spirits and a necromancer (assuming that isn't the same odin as the vampire), but some etherites also think that he was pre dark age genius leader of a proto etherite culture who had their Science downplayed by their enemies
>Scientific Mystic
>a rune-carving Son of Ether isn’t using “Norse magic,” but the geometric, psychological and psionic insights of a culture whose discoveries were, no doubt, downplayed by the enemies of Science!
etherites are funny people, but if you look at what is happening to the norse mages in dark age mage it is kinda true

>>96025964
Must be a very powerful holy site.

Follow up questions:
>Why revenants in the first place? What do they narratively and mechanically offer for your Hunter game?
>Which family did you have in mind, if any?
>Why do they want to create another family, instead of adding the townsfolk to their own lineage?

Apologies if this all sounds very scrutinizing, that isn't my intent.

>>96025964
>because of a holy site is keeping the proper vampires away from the city.
How the fuck is the gangrel elder getting around this? If it's powerful enough to repel vampires by just existing, but a low gen elder isn't going to do Shit to prevent it turning him to ash.

>>96025964
>>96025838
>>96025820
I forgot to mention that the holy "place" is a saint buried at the entrance of a cave where the Elder fused itself to an underground lake by eating it's spirit.

>>96025672
I personally think that they hold a huge edge against vampires. Since they can walk on light.

It is crazy how little they get talked about. When you consider how powerful they could get.

>>96025448
They look like they learn lines in the rain
Special effects by loonatik and drinks
The graveyard scene
The golden years

>>96026113
>How the fuck is the gangrel elder getting around this?
Ok, for clarification, the saint buried there prayed for the creature to sleep because they, mistakenly, thought they were a Bygone and that it deserved some mercy. This lead to the whole region forcing vampires to sleep as if it was daytime regardless actual time. (Every hour or so they need to make an increasingly difficult Willpower rolls to stay awake) It's a specialized effect so it doesn't come off as too bullshit.
>>96026007
I wanted to have a scenario for Vatican backed hunters to be in a situation without a clear win in the long term.
As for why they are trying to create a new family, it's mostly a question about how they would need to become fully fleshed out Revenants before being incorporated and how some of the higher-ups believe they could have some unusual discipline set or traits and that could fuck up the current Revenants lines if they are incorporated willy nilly.
I don't have any particular family planned out.

>>96026393
They are pretty irrelevant because they came up later so people don't use them all that much unless they are the only way to fill a role.

>>96026429
>thought they were a Bygone
So it was a mage, not a saint?

>>96026429
Alright, so you do have a potentially interesting angle as the revenant's vampire overlords can't actually directly oversee anything. This could create a dynamic where what their masters want and what they want are at odds and the revenants are in the rare opportunity to engage in some malicious compliance.

Which family it is will heavily flavor them as antagonists, most revenant families are very gimmicky. Are you thinking they're one of the Tzimisce Families, or a different family? You could also freely come up with an original one, but then you'd need to put more effort into the how they developed and who they serve.

>>96025934
Odin the Vampire has never once claimed to be the actual Odin

Explain to me how your Garou isn't homeless and how it isn't lorebreaking. You can't, so don't reply.

Do you think there could be any Orphan Masters or even Archmages? Or do Orphans inevitably either join a Craft/Tradition or die/go insane/hit a wall and wallow in mediocrity before they achieve more than mediocre power because they lack the resources or knowledge? Could an Orphan ally and bargain with other groups to gain enough support to reach that level without actually joining any of those groups as a true member?

>>96026471
No they were a guy with true faith who got a unique effect off though storyteller Fiat. I didn't meant to imply mage shenanigans by using the term Bygone, just that they believed it was just a supernatural animal.

>>96026642
He's a Hakken and lives in a two-century old home in the woods.

>>96026642
They are homeless because of a personal totem ban.

>>96026666
Why aren't they marching out to fight the enemies of Gaia. Wyrmlover.
>>96026668
I salute my Bone Gnawer brethren. Just stand down-wind.

>>96025346
>virtual adepts and hermetics are the same thing they just don't get it
this is true tho

>>96026677
>Just stand down-wind.

>>96026654
>Do you think there could be any Orphan Masters or even Archmages?
Probably not. Closest thing would be Hollow One "Masters" of particular spheres.
>Or do Orphans inevitably either join a Craft/Tradition or die/go insane/hit a wall and wallow in mediocrity before they achieve more than mediocre power because they lack the resources or knowledge?
Your Avatar naturally pushes you towards improvement and growth. However, without the right tools, nurturing and safety you can't really grow that much. So yes, Orphans sooner or later have to join a faction, fail or die.
>Could an Orphan ally and bargain with other groups to gain enough support to reach that level without actually joining any of those groups as a true member?
I mean... it's not impossible in the sense that there's no rules that forbid it. But good luck with that when everybody sees you as inferior, dumb, uncommitted and lacking talent, because now on top of all of that they will think you're a grifter.

>feel cold
>go into lupus
>fur keeps me warm
>get dirty
>go into lupus
>lick myself clean
>now clean

yeah actually why would you need a house?

>>96026769
You need to keep your stuff and bitches somewhere.

>>96026769
I'll give you a shack in the wilderness in return for a favour later.

>>96026764
Could an Orphan who goes on to join a faction retain parts of their magical style they had cobbled together beforehand and work it into what they learn or do they have to abandon everything that doesn’t fit neatly into the paradigm of the faction they’re learning from?

>>96026863
>you get
>shitty shack in the woods
>i get
>don't worry about it
Sure thing, Mr. Leech. I'll even shake on it.

Can white people join the Dreamspeakers or is it just for blacks and injuns?

>>96026937
Everybody can join (and, potentially, experience the joys of being destroyed and re-created by spirits). Even better, you can get all the benefits of the dreamspeakers and be part of a cooler tradition (just buy a merit in Spirit ways, iirc)

>>96026937
Yeah, there's a Finnish faction that focuses on smithing or something like that.

>>96026937
Depends on edition. 2nd and 20th? No.

>>96027014
Their are only 4 traditions with actual mechanical benefits and you can gain all of them as an akashic or hermetic through merits.

>>96027144
What do the akashics have besides Do?

>>96027144
You can always homebrew your own shit, and honestly paradigm should matter more than tradition.

>>96026937
the Dreamspeaker book follows the story of a white guy from New York that becomes a Shaman so yeah you can be white

>>96026937
You people can’t really be this retarded?

>>96026937
Join Taftani, enslave Spirits and diddle boys

>>96027220
Traditions are organized paradigms.

>>96026475
>Which family it is will heavily flavor them as antagonists, most revenant families are very gimmicky. Are you thinking they're one of the Tzimisce Families, or a different family? You could also freely come up with an original one, but then you'd need to put more effort into the how they developed and who they serve.

I don't have a particular family in mind so far but it's definitely going to a Sabbath operation. Maybe I should get multiple families involved but that sounds like nonsense from the Hunter's perspective.

I know I said I would never fuck a Lupus Garou
...
HOWEVER

>>96026937
>>96027072

People often forget that shamanism existed in every ancient society ever.

It has been years since the last time I read Mage, but whatever the book says, even nowadays Celtic and other European traditions are huge on the pagan communities.

>The 2e Nosferatu Clanbook’s opening fiction ties directly to the Revised Nosferatu Clanbook’s opening fiction
I admit it, I clapped.

>>96021234
You go to Groups.

A Demon that believes in God meets a Technocrat that believes God was never real. Both have 5 Conviction but also 5 Compassion and the Demon is low Torment. Who cracks first and can't take it anymore and tries to strangle the other?

>>96027528
She would have so many pups.

>>96026894
Paradigms are very much personal. Two mages of the very same tradition could have extremely different styles, tools and intricate paradigms. Two mages of very different traditions could share tools, paradigm and styles.
An Orphan who created their paradigm and practice through self-taught means (and is of a flexible mind) is actually in an advantageous position, as they would have an easier time integrating their pre-existing ideas into their new practice and vice versa.
You still don't get a specialty sphere, I think.

>>96027673
>A Demon that believes in God
How could a Fallen ‘believe’? It’s not faith when they personally met the guy.

>>96026937
Yeah. It doesn't have to be an ancestral thing. It helps, sure, but it's not necessary.
You'd just have to join the right sept/circle/cabal or find the right mentor (whether Mage or Spirit). Don't go thinking you can just roll up to the nearest reservation or Yoruba fraternal order and ask them to teach you their secrets and embrace you like a brother.

>>96027849
Owod mages don't have a "conviction" stat, so I assume he's talking about "the descent"...
Why the fuck would a cyberdemon have faith in the godmachine though?

>>96027528
What happens if you, as a mundane mortal, fuck a Lupus Garou (or any Fera for that matter) in their Homid form, without protection of course?
Do they still get pregnant? Do they give birth to kinfolk? Is there a chance for the offspring to be Fera?

>>96027881
>Why the fuck would a cyberdemon have faith in the godmachine though?
They are human and weird enough to believe nonsense.

>>96027849
>How could a Fallen ‘believe’?
Reconciler

>>96027926
Not how that works, Reconcilers are just a particular faction of demons, none of the other ones deny the existance of god or anything like that either. A Fallen explicitly can't 'believe' in god the way a human can, because they personally knew them.
That's why fallen can't generate Faith, but humans can.

>>96028002
I'm aware but you're being incredibly pedantic. Here, let me rephrase. A Fallen Demon that fully believes in God and wants to do right by them and loves them and wants to get back in their good graces meeting the most fedora tipping holy heckin Science Technocrat so Banal Changelings within a 10 mile radius are instantly destroyed. Which one of them snaps first, being unable to deal with either's proseletysing and insistence that the other's world view is fundamentally incorrect?

>>96027894
Yes, but your chances of making any of the above are lessened. Your hypothetical offspring are more likely to be mundane than they are to be kinfolk.

>>96027540
That may be true, but certain editions make Dreamspeakers into an indigenous Minoriteam. It's not about being a shaman, because you can be a shaman in any tradition. It's about agreeing with the political goals of the tradition, and the traditions agreeing with your existence.

>>96028073
I mean, the hyperscientific worldview of a technocrat isn't even untrue within DtF, the big bang happened at the same time the first house was created, multiple realities overlapped back then. Adam and Eve lived at the same time apes were evolving to gain sentience.
Demon isn't gonna give a shit, in other words.

>>96028129
Nothing in the DtF book or its handful of supplements implies any of that happened, it really has next to nothing about werewolves or changelings in fact. Instead it heavily crosses over Wraith and Vampire, and Mage is sorta easy to slot in there but the books don't call out Mages either.

>>96028163
Literally the core book

>>96028163
Literally, both examples, taken straight from the core book.

>>96019029 (OP)
WDYT a pseudo post apocalyptic VTM would look like? Not a full on apocalypse, but a world where all non thinbloods are killed off through some macguffin. Setting results in the thinbloods being the oy remaining vamps and dhampir. would it be fun seeing the thinbloods trying to build a new masquerade/society?

>>96027444
Well if you're thinking Sabbat, here's some of the Revenant Families I'd suggest using

>Obertus
These guys are the mystic weirdos and huge nerds of the Tzimisce Revenant families, so if there's something to be investigated, they're the best. They're also not very loyal, doing the bare minimum to keep their masters happy. There's even a radical faction within them that think they're the next step in human evolution.

>Bratovich
They're the heavies of the Tzimisce families, and the most heavily inbred. They will engage in cannibalism and bestiality, and are probably the best bet for "30 days of night" shit.

>Grimaldi
They're the resource backbone of the families, but also the most humane and least loyal, so while they might have the easiest time taking over a town, they're also going to have the least heart in it.

Maybe have it be a joint Obertus-Bratovich operation, which gives your players a divide to exploit. Neither respect each other, the boss can't physically be there to keep them both in line, but at the same time neither has any issue with treating humans as livestock.

Soon

>>96028319
>would it be fun seeing the thinbloods trying to build a new masquerade/society?

I don't think so, on the grounds that if it's only thinbloods left 90% of the cool shit vampires can do vanishes from the setting.

>>96028353
Not nessicarily. As thinnies embrace at same gen, and IIRC their blood gets more potent over time, I'd want to see thinbloods rediscovering traditions and developing some unique cool stuff.

>>96025934

And the Get of Fenris hate all of them.

>>96028408
I don't think Thinbloods get more potent over time, unless you're talking about that VTDA thing where 12th is the baseline.

At which point you're talking about roughly 1000 years for thinbloods to stop being thinbloods and have the same stuff as a basic 13th-10th gen.

>>96028074
Garou + mortal = kinfolk anon, 100% of the time. It takes 3 generations of no garou for there to even be a Chance of a child being born as non-kin(which raises the question of how the fuck they're dying out, but once again the writers are shit at math).

>>96027894
You make kinfolk babies. Without the right kin blood, you don't have the spiritual capacity to make fera(unless an Apis blesses you, then the chance is 25%)

>>96028408
>>96028466
Thinbloods don't get more potent with time. The vampiric curse as a whole takes time to become strong enough to allow a new generation to be born, but vampires within that generation stay the same strength. That's why 5 dot in the generation background made you 7th gen in DA, the curse wasn't strong enough to make 14th gen vamps yet so there were less vamps in general, but 7th gens in DA are just as powerful as 7th gens in modern nights.
Weirdly enough, thinbloods become Less powerful when the curse gains enough strength to make a new generation. The thinblood of the time lose the ability to make new disciplines, lose their prophetic insight into the elders, and start manifesting clan weaknesses instead of staying caitif.

>>96028519
Garou and Fera can learn that Apis Gift but only impart the capacity to have kids in line with the user's type.

>>96028569
Nope, go back an reread past lives. The gift only defaults to the user's type in neither partner is changer or kin.

>>96028545
Kinda hate this retcon from vampire the dark ages. It basically reframes every elder panicking about "the time of thin blood" as retarded. If you follow the logic of how thinblood generations work, the curse of caine won't hit it's true limit until 18th gen, when vampires will be born unable to use disciplines entirely(making them essentially zombies that're weaker than even a ghoul). Hell, it might continue 5 more generations after that, with 19-22 having a decreasing max bp and attribute cap until 23 gens become impossible to raise because they'd have a max BP of 0 and max attributes/abilities of 0. If it took from dark ages until modern nights to go from the first whispers of the 14th gen to the first whispers of the 16th gen, then we'd have 1,400 more years.

>>96028507
I mean they are in a war, so a lot of them are dying. If they took the time to a wait a rear a family properly they'd be pretty stable in about 30-35 years. Granted that's a smart thing to do so.... yeah.

>>96028163
Okay to answer what you want here whatll happen;
The demon would try to to talk about God for a bit to the suit. Atheist would argue against God. There might be a vakc and forth put it would either end in the Demon giving up and imploring him or showing his true form .

What kind of mage is he? Is he a marauder? What kind? A nephandus?

>>96019029 (OP)
>What's your favorite blood magic path/ritual/combo?
I'm quite fond of Elemental Mastery and Sanguine Assistant. Versatile, useful, fluffy, myriad of ways to use your elemental minions. Good synergy with Thaumaturgical Alchemy. Good company, too.

Night Garden as well, if the chronicle is meandering enough to amass lakes of blood needed.

Mercury and Focused Mind are worth a dip for general convenience and getting out of hairy situations, unless you have literal years to learn to set up True Friend and nothing better to spend your fifth dot ritual on.

The Tremere clan weakness being changed unable to form blood bonds is a good change that I use for my V20 chronicles.

>>96028963
Harmless loner kind of Marauder. Everything he sees works out how he expects it should, consequences are discharged onto onlookers, and he'll never think it's weird. His bubble will look more like his cartoons inside until it detaches from the rest of reality and nothing enters or exits again.

>>96028928
>demon shows dyed in the wool Technocrat his true form
>Class A reality deviant called in, eliminated by a Hit-Mark at their earliest convenience, Ghost Busters contain the spirit and decide to send it to Q Division to see if they can reverse engineer its powers and turn them into some kind of Gadget

>>96029105
The biggest issue with Tremere's weakness is that 'it's only one step, tee-hee/it wasn't performed on me anyway' retcon, and Tremere with Unbondable trait not being bound by other means (rituals, Dominate, etc) or deprived of thaumaturgical resources outside of the clan, respectively.

>>96029105
It's got mechanical impact and the flavor of incompletely synthesized vitae.

>>96029176
I was especially thinking of the bubble of cartoon violence he creates, is he pure dynamism, or does the collapse of sanity and peace in his local bubble suggest some entropic resonance? Either way, mostly harmless unless you're one of the people he's trying to "reach", or even a bystander. He convinced an official that his father molested his brother with a few words, screaming, and breaking a window.

>>96028597
The conversation had turned to that one edge case, specifically.

>>96027528
Lupus Garou in homid form are basically autistic. I'm getting my autistic brown gf.

>VtR House rule: Any Devotion that requires purchasing dots in only one Discipline can be purchased as an alternative to the standard power listed under that rating. e.g. a character with 5 dots in Obfuscate can pick Cloak the Gathering instead of Oubliette.
How badly does this break the game's balance?

>The Syndicate invented both capitalism and socialism. No matter which one you support, you're less than a pawn in their game - you are a woodchip in the board they're playing. If a lefty wins it's because they wanted it, if a righty wins it's because they wanted it. You're a political animal right, except you're caged and trained like a rat.
How do you respond without sounding mad?

>>96029580
Seems like a fairly niche rule to me. It makes sense on a couple of Devotions but is fairly inapplicable to a lot of them. It's not going to break the balance of things but it would make things a little harder to track and I'm not really sure there is a massive benefit to it outside of that one example

>>96029627
Who even cares about -isms when you have cosmic powers and dozen worlds to explore?

Let them sit in their dusty cubicles, sipping bitter water, peering at tables and shuffling papers.

>>96029381
If he's the unwitting agent of entropy it's because Tom Green didn't do a thing that wasn't vandalism in some form. I guess in the worst case Toon Town ass Bygones could start spawning out of his zone and causing traffic accidents.

>>96029627
Simple, lamer. You got to burn it all down. Whole dataset is corrupted and stagnate. The system needs a hard reset.

>No De20, H20, or Mu20 ever
This is truly the darkest timeline.

>>96029821
20th anniversary is a crappy abridgement of revised, just keep playing revised.

>>96029627
This is why indigenous rebel groups usually identify as Maoist or Anarchist -- less Timmy-coded

>>96029746
The horse in the beginning was definitely one of his bygones, and we can see with the kid that keeps getting hurt that his madness is infectious. If the kid continued to be alive after Gordy left, after getting blended by a plane rotor, then Gord's pretty dangerous to all kinds of Masquerades.

>>96028187
>>96028204
You can't trust that guy, he's a Neberu

>>96029980
Maoism was also a Syndicate invention.

>>96030065
More like a Syndicate shitpost. I'm sure they still laugh at the results from time to time when drinking after board meetings.

>>96030077
Any idiotic idea can be presented as shitpost that marginally improves the bottom line ...somewhere else. That's how the Syndicate rolls.
U2GAY capcha

>>96029627
Who do you believe is correct? The Syndicate's Free Market or the New World Order's Controlled Market?

>>96029627
Money is fake, magic is real the and the value of gold is only limited by a Hermetic's ability to create it.

>>96030294
>a Hermetic's ability
Hermetic ability does not inspire much confidence on a good day, to be entirely honest.

>>96030294
I'm pretty sure the Syndicate themselves know money is technically made up. It's just made up by them and they have the ability to enforce it.
If tomorrow the Traditions decided to crash the Gold, Silver, Diamond, Lithium and Cobalt markets the Technocracy would just invent a new element like they've done before. They have plenty of Matter 5 agents capable of doing so, and then they would base a revolutionary new tech on this new element to monopolize the market.

>>96029627
Caine invented feudalismbefore any of you were even an idea in your great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great granddaddy's heavily scratched over-used consent-agnostic balls. Now pay your tithe, blood bag.

>>96030562
Lucifer was a king and Lilith was a mage Caine. You lost the dick measuring contest before you were even Born.

>>96030734
Lucifer sucked my sloppy seconds out of the whore of pre-babylon, and both's claims to significance involve always playing second fiddle to my children
>inb4 caramel and shabbot
Children, not dregs. Although even my great grandchild made your oh-so-powerful technocracy wet their space pants in fear.

>>96029423
Autistic and a child.
A wolf typically lives up to around 10 years.
You're typically gonna be banging a primary schooler.

>>96027528
>Makeup
It's a homid

>>96030294
>money is fake
Money is Primal Utility (quintessence if you are reality deviant) and literally everything is made of it.

and before you ask, yes this is an acceptable model of physics for the Technocracy

>>96030802
sloppy thirds really.

>>96031137
The Technocracy are just silly guys

>>96031425
Surely she's on thousands by now

>>96031137
"Money" by its economic definition is literally any (im)material possession that has value.
For vampires, it's boons (vitae for Banu Haqim).
For werewolves, it's poons.
For hunters, it's goons (rhyme Trump's sense at this point).
For demons it's coons.

>>96031137
Not "money" anon, Value. Everything is made of mathmatical values and money is just as solidified form of that concept(or "Tass" if you're a reality deviant).
Get your technocratic diction straight or we'll have to send you back to the power-point courses.

hermetics be like "hermes trismegistos did that shit personally"

>>96031425
>>96031776
She's a verbena, she was sloppy who-the-fuck-knowths way before she met Caine.

>>96031823
Meanwhile technocrats: protomonke banged rocks protomonke = prototechnocrat hurr hurr hurr.

>>96030882
Lupus live a rather long time after their change, so that's not really a guarantee, especially since their outlook is mingled with that of an unmistakably adult wolf - a territorial hunter looking to establish said territory.

>>96029423
Ironically, Lupus Garou are smarter than your average Black Fury.

>>96030882
All werewolves have the same lifespan regardless of breed.
Lupus werewolves are guaranteed to outlive all of their wolf relatives, from parents to siblings to children to grandchildren, until they die a violent death.

>>96030882
I guess that leaves crinos for gfs who lived in their aunts' cellars and studied the Alpha and Omega series until they were 13.

>>96032349
*same lifespan after first change
A lupus is still going to be have a decade less total lifespan than a homid because they age like normal wolves pre-change.

>>96032340
>Ironically, Lupus Garou are smarter than your average Black Fury.
Not a high bar. Black Furies are raging retards even by lowest woof standards; talk to a stone and it will be wiser than your average Black Fury.

>>96032358
>crinos for gfs
You mean metis anon? Do you not know anything about WtA?
Still wrong though, they go over how fast metis age in rage across the heavens. They'll be developmentally a teenager at 4 and a full adult(physically) at 8, so you'll be dating what amounts to elementary schooler.
A Lupus would be closer to a toddler in mental age since they hit first change at 1-2 years.

>>96032262
The order of Reason was an offshoot of the order of hermes. The hermetics are technically The proto-technocrat house responsible for all of the traditions issues... and also are in charge of the traditions.

Could a mage who’s a Master of Life and Spirit turn a human into a werewolf?

>>96032504
Yes, but then he'd lose all his sphere magic to become a Rank 0 cub. Not Worth.

>>96030288
M20 was very liberalpilled: radical centrist and very confident that American fascism was destroyed with the failed re-election of Zlogan Schrumpf.

>>96032412
Lupus speedrun human development after the change (p76 of W20).

>>96032519
No, I mean turn a vanilla human into one, not the mage himself.

>>96032610
>Can a Mage do-
Short answer yes
Long answer, good luck. It's the kind of feat Legendary sorcerers awaken from.

>>96032430
Not really. Hermetics spawned one convention (Craftmasons) in 1200s that was purged by fanatical papists and their cutthroat lapdogs (both of which would defect the Order some time after, becoming known as Knight Templar and House Janissary) in 1600s.
Greece and China both had continuous, direct predecessors of Iterators, Progenitors and Void Engineers aeons before OoH formed up.

The part about hermetics being responsible for tradition's troubles is sorta right, but also... not? Verbena, Euthanatoi and awakened Abrahamic culitists are responsible for just as much if not more bullshit.

>>96032504
>>96032610
Be sorcerer, progress to Alchemy 6 (you may even chargen with if your ST allows), get reagents, succeed at somewhat difficult cooking roll and you can make an elixir that will turn a mortal into a supernatural of your choosing. Or give him conditional immortality.

>>96032655
Sorcererchads stay winning over magefags

>>96032504
Even blood mages can turn people into werewolves, at least in owod

>>96019029 (OP)
Lord help me for I've found myself in the most difficult situation one can in Hunter: the Vigil.

Having to kill a monster (actually several) that has a small horde of innocent dupes serving them.

>>96028963
Preferred Foci:
>Meats and Cheeses
>Artistic Expression
>Screaming
>Violence
>Violation of Boundaries

Preferred Spheres:
>Mind
>Time
>Prime

Do some of the strongest garou, like zhyzhak or golgol, stand any sort of chance against any of the antediluvians?

>>96032694
I'll give you one worse: an innocent monster serving evil dupes

>>96032718
How does that even work?

>>96032711
"No!"
Within the larger linear-monster-quadratic-wizard paradigm, Garou are addition, while Cainites are multiplication. A powerful werewolf is just a werewolf with some neat skills and boons. Even a mere elder vampire has likely started to dabble in the truly arcane and eldritch.

>>96032711
Sutekh famously had to run away from Shu Horus. In any case, it doesn't necessarily matter, since Garou can summon or otherwise gain the favor of Incarnae that can act through them.

>>96032711
Not alone, dear God
A group of elders could take on a Methuselah, Antes are cheating, you'd need like 3 septs of competent warriors all with Halo of the Sun or Renew the Cycle at their disposal.

>>96032711
Broski, the average methuselah is probably beyond any number of werewolves. An antideluvian is something even the technocracy had to risk their own tradition to take down.
Unless your werewolf can literally ravage an entire subcontinent (and requires nuking of said subcontinent to take down), it's probably not even on the same playing field.
>Does cocaine bear stand a chance against godzilla

>>96032757
A few dots of Thaumaturgy and the right rituals/paths can tank those too

>>96032504
I feel like you'd need Prime too but anyways sure but first you have to ask yourself the real question when playing mage: would they even know *how* to do something like this?

>>96032504
In Awakening, an Archmage can do it with 7 dots in both.

>>96032627
It is almost as if there were multiple proto-scientific communities irl and mage mirrors that.

>>96032711
Antediluvians don't have stats so this question is a pointless argument starter.

>>96032767
>Broski, the average methuselah is probably beyond any number of werewolves.
Unless they are out of blood and willpower.

>>96032826
Yeah and if the werewolf is out of blood, skin, teeth, claws, eyes, nose, Gaia's favor, and his regenerative factor, a toddler with a BB gun could solo him

>>96032825
Methuselahs do, and they're so far beyond them it's not even funny

>>96032688
It's more of a trade off.
A Thaumaturge needs months to years to make meaningful progress, but he only needs a single dice pool from generally invaluable trait for his Paths, and another one for his rituals and his powers are both reliable and blatant without dox. He also spends way less XP since his rituals cost time.

A Sorcerer needs less time than a Thaumaturge, starts with more path dots, and is more immediately flexible than him, but his powers are generally weak, unreliable, and his rituals cost XP -which eventually negates any cost he could shave from his discount advantages.

A Mage can whip up something in minutes, and is the most flexible and raw powerful one of them all by far, but he needs a prohibitively expensive dice pool and buttload of spheres to get anywhere, and he either gets kicked in the nuts by the Paradox on the regular, or amasses a doomstack than boots him from reality for good, edition depending.

There's also HtR's take on mages, which removes extended casting, roll modding and double damage, making them much weaker, but it also removes the Sphere bloat and Arete tax, so you only need to roll Elements with no stupid additional Spheres to do anything Matter or Forces could, only need to roll Spacetime to do anything Space or Time could (you still can mix Spheres to create an elemental, for example); Paradox isn't a thing in the general antagonist book and rules for it present in the additional book aren't batshit retarded (its chance's only triggered if more sleepers witness you casting the spell than you gain successes).

>>96032767
>against godzilla

That's W:tA's thing. Just look at the Mokole who have five or more picks of Tall and/or Behemoth in Archid; the system doesn't even know how to handle it.

(Also Dream Semblance is a "break glass in case of major threat" button that Mokole can press once in their lives if they have the Gift to stop things like clan founders cold)

>>96032857
I’m new here, what is HtR?

>>96032876
Hunter the Reckoning. Revised splat where mortals gain superpowers from shady backers and go murderhobo on supernaturals.

>>96032889
Thanks

I’m looking at playing a Shaman in Ascension. Where can I look to get an idea of what bargaining with spirits looks like for a mage?

>>96032928
Dreamspeakers, Taftani, rarely Verbena. Or Order of Hermes if you're got a dick in your mouth and a stick up your ass.

But a shaman is predominantly a Dreamspeaker.

>>96032937
Will the old Dreamspeaker tradition book show what spirits usually ask for and what they are capable of granting in return? That’s what I’m looking for. I know the price they demand is called chinimage, I just don’t know what that actually entails.

If there was a Giant game, what would you expect from it?

>>96032857
>his powers are generally weak, unreliable,
This is generally a meme started by people that only skimmed Sorcerer Revised.
If you work out the actual dice pools, the fact sorcerers benefit from resonance, that sorcerers can use lower level path powers for free as they gain mastery, and that Mana uniquely causes reverse threshold(aka: removes requires successes/adds successes), sorcerers can through down some epically powerful magic on the regular. The fast-casting for sorcerers is pretty borked though and is almost useless when you realize a sorcerer can hang rituals to insta-cast them later.
Rituals also only cost XP if you don't use downtime to make them yourself(which takes 2+ months each) or to burn it into a rote for -1 difficulty(which isn't worth it if you have the right resonance anyway).
The unreliability is also exclusive to sorcerers trained by mages. Sorcerers trained by other splats(kinfolk shamans, hunter sorcerers, demon hunter X Psychics) can ignore disbelief entirely, but are also generally weaker(no 6th dot spells and no aspects).

>>96032980
Define "Giant", paul bunyan, norse nature gods, abrahamic half-angels, greek anti-gods, etc, are all very different things.

>>96032857
Enchant Talisman removes the casting time for Thaumaturgy up to level 4.

>>96032969
Look through the Spirit Ways first, then the TB (it to has a section on bargains, but much would depend on your persuasive ability, really).

>>96032980
>OH FUCK OH SHIT WHAT THE FUCK ARE THOSE METAL FLYING SONS OF BITCHES
The last words of the final giant, a species exterminated by the Technocratic Union.

>>96032980
"Guy but big" isn't really enough to have a game around, so they'd need to come up with some mythology that turns them into basically something completely different than their traditional depiction like they did with werewolves.

>>96032985
>This is generally a meme started by people that only skimmed Sorcerer Revised.
It's not a meme, it's as compared to roll consistency, raw damage or instant loss options other casters have access to. Sorcerers are between the two, with some advantages over either, but in terms of raw power and consistency they aren't the best.

Also Mage mechanics are cancer of Sorcerer Revised and should be ignored in all cases when Sorcerer is concerned.

>>96033111
>"Guy but big" isn't really enough to have a game around
Wrong.

Genuine question, why is it that most female Lasombra look sexy and immensely slutty but male Lasombra look like sex offenders or used car salesmen?

>>96033149
Why would you sire an ugly woman if you weren't a nossie?

>>96033149
>Genuine question, why is it that most female Lasombra look sexy and immensely slutty but male Lasombra look like sex offenders or used car salesmen?
They're Spaniards.

>>96033149
>ruin womans life
>she sluts out
>ruin mans life
>he becomes a sleazemaxxing creep
idk it makes sense when you think about it

>>96033001
>Define "Giant", paul bunyan, norse nature gods, abrahamic half-angels, greek anti-gods, etc, are all very different things.
That's kind of the question. What would WW gravitate towards and how would they modify it in WoD? We have some examples in other ST games so odds are they would lean towards the Greek take on them.

>>96033111
>"Guy but big" isn't really enough to have a game around, so they'd need to come up with some mythology that turns them into basically something completely different than their traditional depiction like they did with werewolves.
True but that's what I am trying to picture.

>>96033111
I find this view reductive. Folklore "werewolves" are typically a subset of magic users or are some sort of wild men that bridge the gap between man and beast, which means they don't have a defined enough identity to be their own major thing. Pop culture werewolves are defined by their lack of control whenever they do werewolf things, which doesn't work for a TTRPG.

There's actually quite a few different mythological angles you could take with giants, enough to pad out your typical clan/bloodline equivalents well enough. The actual problem with giants is with the default modern day setting and the difficulty of keeping the masquerade as a result. Giants would pretty much always have had to live in the untamed wilderness and hinterlands of the world, which are increasingly rare and even then the existence of satellites and cameras makes it even harder for them to remain hidden. And of course, if you're that far in the middle of nowhere, what do you do? I'm personally not the biggest fan of how often WoD tries to lock a splat into some singular war/cause/goal but you do need some sort of reason to "adventure" in the first place. I've had giants as NPCs in my games before, but their nature as a dying race stuck in the hinterlands makes it hard to think of them as something that could carry a game on their own.

>>96033170
I'd rather embrace an uggo that can do the stuff I need her to do well than a hot bitch that's useless. But that's because I personally would not want any sort of romantic relationship with my childe.

>>96033173
Good point.

>>96033200
Great point.

>>96033208
>What would WW gravitate towards and how would they modify it in WoD?

Probably turn them into a hamfisted metaphor for the lead author's political beliefs. sorry, that was mean of me

>>96033123
The raw power generally depends on if the sorcerer has prep-time. If caught with his pants down, sure, but let's use an example.
Say you have a sorcerer with hellfire 3 and the minimum willpower of 5. If he's got nothing prepares, it takes 3 turns for him to cast a decent spell, it'll cost him 1 of his 5 willpower, and he's generally not going to get enough successes do anything big. If instead he takes the time to hang 5 hellfire 1 rituals, all the rituals are free because they're cast at 2 dots lower than max, are able to get 2 dots per aspect because it's being ritual cast, and can boost one aspect to 3 dots by accumulating double the necessary successes.
Our sorcerer above can now cast 5 spells that hit anyone in 10 feet, affecting a 3-by-3 area, for 6 dice of fire damage. All with a level one ritual, not counting the level 2 and 3 rituals he'll have automatically simply from having a path at 3 dots or any rituals he'll have researched.

>>96033003
>Enchant Talisman removes the casting time for Thaumaturgy up to level 4.
In all old editions Enchant Talisman gives extra dice for magic and higher diff for any offensive magic targeting the caster. While also being a mortal liability should you ever be parted from it (aport, animation or some custom ritual to ensure it's always with you and cannot be taken from you is non-negotiable).

Little aside: Phylactery (essentially the same thing but you put a part of your soul in) is way better for everything but a weapon: it doesn't need to be a bloody staff, but a ring or amulet or anything, it reduces the difficulty of not just primary paths and rituals, but all Willpower rolls, and it decreases the difficulty of primary path by three. Talisman's only upside is extra dice when used as a weapon, which, well, don't be so big a twat as to take the spotlight from gargoyles and other direct combat specialists on the team, it won't end well for you. You are a wizard.

Back to the subject, so talisman aint an option but other methods to shave castings and suspend rituals exist or can be developed if they didn't.
The big thing is you need a lot of time to learn/develop everything, while mage can whip effects together on the fly (and sorcerer needs less time than you).

>>96033266
>The raw power generally depends on if the sorcerer has prep-time. If caught with his pants down, sure
Any caster with preptime and motivation to use it well can be a monster, lol.

>>96033274
>In all old editions Enchant Talisman gives extra dice for magic and higher diff for any offensive magic targeting the caster.
VDA20 talismans do that too, they just remove casting times for rituals below level 5 on top of that, effectively turning most thaum rituals into paths you can cast on your turn. The fucking old-guard tremere get all the best toys and barely give their neonates Scraps.

>>96033313
Yep, but I'd put a blood mage with prep-time below a sorcerer with prep time. The blood mage is better off when caught off-guard, but sorcerer are able to do more impressive shit when aloud the time to work.

>>96030288
I'm gonna side with the Syndicate on this one. It's better the Free Market that the Controlled one.

>>96033314
The modern gargoyle ritual just needed a mortal and a cauldron of vitae pre-V20. V20 has reprinted the most elaborately dogshit version of gargoyle ritual from the early years of Ceoris (that was printed late in Dark Ages original run), and made it even more unusable.

And they printed none of the actually good rituals from that book.

How can I kill a magic user (Mage , Tremer Vamp with Thaumaturgy or Sorcerer) for good? Other options than the easy answer of
>Just snipe them from affar with a .50 Sniper Rifle lmao.

I understand how unlikely or unreasonable for this to happen, but i'm sure everyone who has played games here know that RNG can pull a funny.

What would happen to a kinfolk if they got in a duel with Garou or Fera but they win the contest? Would they get renown? Would they get assassinated later in the night? Would everyone laugh at the Garou or what? I'm mostly trying to figure out what is the upper limit of a Kinfolk as they can learn spirit gifts and technically pick up Numina/Sorcery but i'm pretty sure all kinfolks say for Black Fury Women kin will be told to stay in the kitchen.

>>96033367
As a Hunter. Forgot to add that detail.

>>96033380
You comit arson while they sleep.

>>96033367
>Vampire
Fire
>Sorcerer
Hit him until he dies

>>96033367
you can just hit a mage in the head real hard and they'll die, there is literally no difference between them and normies

>>96033367
The humble fertiliser car-bomb.

>>96033396
uh... I thought they had some spells to make them see the future and shit and can see it coming or give themself steel skin or something. Thats why i didn't thought of thta easy of a solution.

>>96033328
In terms of, like, a week to a month, and the thaumaturge being a fledgeling, I absolutely agree (or the sorcerer getting to that high Alchemy and no longer being constrained by his lifespan and immediate needs, while also being well-hidden and unknown).
Tremere's biggest weakness is longest R&D times, they're incredibly fast compared to other vampires that can't invent shit to save their lives, but compared to sorcerers and mages they're turtles.

>>96033367
Roofie them, so they can't retaliate, then bonk em on the head until they’re jam.

>>96033405
that's only if they thought about having those active ahead of time. otherwise you'll probably be able to cave their skull in with a sledgehammer before they can cast anything

>>96033414
Oh, I See, so its Batman rules? Magic users with prep time are danger but just suprise them is safe ?

>>96033367
The "lmao sniper" answer is so retarded because it assumes the Mage isn't a paranoid schizo walking with a forcefield, entropic shield or some other uno reverse card bullshit.
Congrats, you killed an Arete 2 at most goth kid using a high caliber rifle. You could've done the same with a 9mm, or with your hands.
Now try that shit with a Mage that actually knows how to defend himself and see what happens.
>>96033396
>>96033414
Again, this is the same old school retarded argument of "lel hit them before they can cast" assuming a Mage is just going to roam around the block unprotected. Only low-tier orphans do that.

>>96033367
>>96033380
Imbued or mundane hunter?

>>96033428
This is what I was refereing to. I found it kinda awkard that a normal mage dosent have protection anywhere they go.

>>96033367
Projectiles, assassination and terrorism is usually the first thing caster players and savvy NPC mages proof against. They are painfully aware they're squishy as hell and the favourite target for ganking.
That said,
>>96033405
Traditionalist mages (and quite a few of Tremere and all of non-Tremere blood sorcerers) are arrogant and antiquated as hell. Simple solutions work way more often than they prolly should. And when they don't you go in the blaze of glory, best end the hunter could hope for.

>>96033409
>while also being well-hidden and unknown
Sorcerers get the arcane background, so this is basically a freebie. When rolling the normal contested investigation or perception vs stealth rolls to learn anything about a sorcerer, their arcane rating adds it's rating in dice to their roll And subtracts its rating in successes from yours. Trying to learn anything about even a moderately accomplished sorcerer is an exercise in frustration.

>>96033437
For the purposes of the Game im planning. Mundane Hunters. Vigil or H5 versions.

>>96033428
>Only low-tier orphans do that.
Isaac Newton got killed in a drive-by
a literal archmage and one of the most high level technocrats got killed by mundane gangbangers

>>96033367
>Mage
catch them off guard in a public place to force backlash
>Tremere
arson also don't be the Order of Hermes and attack at night. That's stupid.
>Sorcerer
same as mage, but for a different reason (no prep time means they're stuck casting shitty spells that take an eternity to cast)
>Changeling/Fae
get some boring office workers as bodyguards
>Mummy
Shit outta luck. They're gonna revive. Get a Master Shaman so he can gilgul their souls into shreds or throw them into an active volcano.

Imagine trying to hunt a Mage with 6+ arcane lol

>>96033409
Sorcerers also have R&D. They learn a new ritual at no XP cost if they invest 2+ months to invent it themselves. Alchemy isn't the only life-extension path either. Enchanting, Summoning, Healing also give you potential paths to living longer. Main issue is getting your path high enough to do it with their retardly expensive xp requirements.

>>96033468
Can it be done? Even for a Master Hunter either Mundane or Embued?

>>96033390
>arson
That solved a LOT of problems in the campaign I used to play in. I believe by the end we burned down or at least damaged a house, a mansion, a lighthouses, an abandoned department store, and a motel.

>>96033480
Daaaaamnnn anon, thats a lot or Arson. Based

>>96033454
>Master Shaman so he can gilgul their souls into shreds
Not how that works. Gilgul just removes true magic from mages. There's a very small number of powers that can cause true soul-death.

>>96033428
>Start aiming a sniper rifle at mage
>Black Dog bodyguard immediately materializes behind you and rips your dick off

>>96033454
For mummies you've gotta write them out of existence or nuke them (Both options work according to MtR)

>>96033478
No. See anons explanation on arcane:>>96033448

>>96033503
Thank you

>>96033498
*nuke their soul
Nuking their body leaves the pissed off spirit that still has full access to their hekau.

>>96033478
nope

>>96033448
>Head of the CIA: "We've been searching for this man for weeks and still have no leads! How is he always one step ahead?"
>Sorcerer: Literally just eating ice-cream down the street, completely unaware people are even looking for him.

>>96033448
Love me some Arcane.

Tho I firmly believe that it's a trait that should be restricted only to pure Mages and Sorcerers, and furthermore those that aren't in any way related to religious and social practices (yeah, Batata exist for diversity points, nobody plays or cares for those wankers), and impair the acquisition and maintenance of other backgrounds and harden some social rolls. It's great at keeping you hidden, but it's not without costs, and it shouldn't be stacked with other temlplates as they have Obfuscate and Delirium and other ways to keep them hidden.

the proper way of killing a mage is getting them into a philosophical argument since mages are incapable of not ranting about their moronic beliefs until they pass out at which point you simply cover their face with a pillow until they stop moving

the same also works for magefags but just replace philosophy with powerscaling

>>96033538
Anon, these are the 2e rules. revised onward make subtracting successes the default.

>>96033575
I was more posting it for the flavor of how ''hardcore'' high levels of arcane are. Also iirc if you overshoot you're successes and go over 10 dots with the Rite of Occultation you erase yourself from reality.

>>96033449
A Tremere Vampire is still a vampire at the end of the day. Same weaknesses as the rest.
For a Mage, your Hunters will need knowledge. A lot of it. Knowledge of how Mages work, the habits of their target and what they're known for.
First, a Mage's biggest weakness is Paradox. However, a Mage doesn't get far living in mundane society without learning how to manage and avoid it. So the hunter's best option is to put immense amounts of pressure on the mage over a period of time in public spaces. Essentially, hunt in a large group, hunt in public and do not let them get away or be out of sight. That still leaves one problem: when cornered, a Mage would rather risk a Paradox backlash over death, so even if you're doing things right the Mage might still say "fuck it" and use a vulgar effect to escape or kill the hunters.
Then there's the problem of preptime and paranoia. If the Mage knows you're out there, they're either going to bunker down or come for you first. If they don't, the average traditionalist has enough reasons to take extreme precaution.
So you may need to plan a situation where they're vulnerable and fear retaliation, such as kidnapping a mundane loved one as leverage/bait. Then drag them to a public place, attack in large groups and pursue relentlessly. And even then you're still very much in danger. After all, if the Mage has enough dots in Correspondence (or has allies with them) he can just teleport to wherever you're keeping your hostage.
>>96033452
>technocrats
There's your answer. Technocrats are severely limited. They can't cast anything without a device, their hypertech is subject to approval and they usually don't do prep rituals like mage cabals.

>>96033575
Nah, Mage arcane was always dicepools. You're thinking of Mummy rules anon, specifically the amulets that hide you.

The worst tradition are the Solificati
>need foci to cast anything like technocrats
>suffer as much paradox as traditionalists
>arrogant high as fuck on their own farts pricks

>>96032688
Too bad Sorcerers"chads" are too busy beings a second class citizen and not actually being chads.
>>96032711
Nope, the last time a whole tribe of Werewolves faced an Antediluvian, the entire tribe lost. Methuselahs like Baba Yaga stonewall entire tribes, let alone Nictuku like Vasilika or actual Antediluvians.

>>96033615
I thought they stopped existing or are like 3 dudes in a magical trenchcoat pretending to be a craft

A

>>96033575
It changed a bit even between the prints in the same edition.
Sorcerer's specific wording is thus:
>In game terms, the Arcane Background adds its rating to your Stealth attempts and subtracts the same amount from any Perception or Investigation Dice Pools that others use to find you. If you wish, you may “dampen” the effect and “appear” in plain sight.

>>96033614
>You're thinking of Mummy rules anon
Oh, fuck.
It's still pretty great though and Sorcerers can double up on mummy magic and arcane.

>>96033616
>Vasilika
Can we just ignore Nonce McFarland's mary sue wank material?

mages must genuinely be so fucking annoying from a sorcerers perspective like imagine spending years finding out the exact ritual you need and then some guy stumbles in drunk, mutters some words, swishes his wand around, and then boom it does the exact same fucking thing your ritual does and there is literally no way you could ever learn to use magic like him because you don't have magical schizophrenia

>>96033660
Anon, she is literally how Baba Yaga died, whatever you like it or not.
Or do you want me to talk about Ur-Shulgi or that Lasombra who can basically appear in any shadow in the world and is basically a god?
Or how Mithras cripled the tribes in England before getting diablerized?

>>96033673
>mages must genuinely be so fucking annoying
This is a universally applicable statement.

>>96033673
The introduction to Sorcerer Revised discusses how frustrating this is. I think the analogy was spending years to buy a second hand car vs someone who can just casually fly.

>>96033673
There's a bit of that, yeah.

Then there's also the satisfaction of seeing the twat fucked by Paradox or his own hubris, of course.

And you totally could advance to magical shizo, good chunk of sorcs do that. And some that could don't, cause fuck all that paradox and shizo reality war noise.

Four Changelings walk into a bar, but there's only a single non-occupied stool inside. One of the changelings flips the stool and says:

''Now all of us can sit!''

>>96033243
>Probably turn them into a hamfisted metaphor for the lead author's political beliefs. sorry, that was mean of me
It is true tho.
>>96033209
The thing with Giants is how they are more of a trait some deities had rather than something you can extract a theme from.

>>96033673
I imagine they feel much better about themselves shortly after their first time watching a mage get sucked into a realm of eldritch horrors, get transformed into a barstool, or painfully self-immolate for no apparent reason

>>96033724
Accurate.

>>96033424
Pretty much. Mages have extreme flexibility so they can in theory protect against almost anything. But first, they need the spheres to actually do so and two, they need to not get hit with paradox more dangerous than whatever they've just protected themselves from. You can't do much about the first, like all splats the more experienced they are the more dangerous they'll be. For the latter, you want the element of surprise as well as forcing them to work their magic somewhere with a lot of witnesses that go against their paradigm. Some mages will need tech to cast, some will require chants or drawing symbols or blood sacrifices, you'd want to figure out how your target makes their magic work and prevent it from happening.

As a Hunter, or really anyone looking to hunt a Mage, pray that they don't have Time.
If they do, you are fucked.

>>96032980
Wouldn't be the first time someone tried
>https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Giant:_The_Perfidious

>>96033673
Don’t a lot of sorcerers end up becoming mages? Isn’t that where where a lot of traditions get new recruits? They train sleepers to be sorcerers in linear form of their paradigm which pushes them towards awakening and then when they do awaken, they’re already a mostly trained mage.

>>96033743
We can talk for days about what sphere is the strongest, but which sphere is the weakest?

>>96033424
Absolutely this. Just like batman, the sorcerers that can make gadgets(enchanters) or friends(summoners) are the most dangerous of all.
An enchanter can can make items that add his enchantment rating in dice to an attribute, ability, or any other dice roll(this can stack) or subtract their enchant rating in difficulty from a roll.
Now imagine an enchanter with a sniper rifle that just individually added + 5 to dex, +5 to firearms, +5 to the damage dice of the rifle, and is making his rolls at -5 difficulty.
The summoner, on top of summoning friends and compelling you to go wherever they want can build wards and warding circles. Wards subtract their ward rating from All your dice pools(yes, that means a summoning 5 sorcere can remove an arete 5 mage's ability to use magic entirely) and warding circles can lock you inside them unless you can make a willpower roll that gains more successes than his roll to build it.

>>96033793
Spirit

>>96033790
Most can't become Sorcerers and of those who do, most can't awaken. Order of Hermes is just choosing those who can actually awaken to train.

>>96033701
And other book says Baba Yaga was finally slain by lupine armies, which is way better an end than getting no diffed by a shitty mary sue that was wanked to for a dozen pages straight.

>>96033790
Sorcerers actually become Less likely to awaken the more powerful a sorcerer they become. The only exceptions to this are the "struggling awake" merit and the path of alchemy.

>>96033803
>yes, that means a summoning 5 sorcere can remove an arete 5 mage's ability to use magic entirely
>Paths go to 6
I wonder how many archmages got cocky against a "mere" sorcerer and ended up becoming a grease stain on his floor.

>>96033803
And just like Batman, there might be a single or two Sorcerer at most in the world capable of doing that. Arcanum doesn't have it.
>>96033823
You are confusing Zmei getting defeated by Garou with many casualties. (Hell, Baba Yaga still crippled all the tribes even if you want to use that)
Also, Garou says lots of bullshit. Including things like Werewolves fighting [Ravnos] when not a single Werewolves even managed to get close to the dude.

>>96033793
Prime, for all its vitality is deliberately made as a forced crutch. Entropy is generally faffy, other than edge luck shenanigans. Time can be useless if your ST is cranking up diffs for no reason and refuses to give you your due info, but that's obstructiveness rather than lack of inherent utility.
>>96033808
Spirit is relying on hired/befriended muscle and hiding in inaccessible dimension, it's plenty strong when used right. But also not useful at if your ST's huffing Hening's farts.

All Spheres can be strong given cooperative ST and creative player though.

>>96033793
Lang, Sprit can do anything is the mage is good at bargaining. And it can let them straight up ignore Paradox because Fetishes and Talens don’t invoke it no matter how vulgar they look.

>>96033843
Unlikely since it would require Summoning 6 level bullshit with some mega forbidden rituals to do it, but not impossible.

>>96033843
Reminder, ignore who I am dubbing Sorcererfag. They are equivalent to saying Revenant Mages are the best when the book mentions that chances are, there are no Revenant Mages.

>>96033903
Making a level 6 ward is a level 5 ritual anon.

>>96033793
Prime because it depends on other shit to be useful.

>>96033909
>Thinks absolutely zero people ever made it to summoning 6.
Archmages also must not exist right anon? After all, there are less mages than sorcerers.

>>96033914
But you still need a level 6 ritual to summon an archmage, unless you lure him somehow into the ward. Legend has it Porthos himself was lured into a circle to his demise with the promise of bare feet.

>>96033903
>Me and the boys summoning Tzimisce on a dare

>>96033793
Has to be Prime or Matter, they're both pretty dependent on adding other spheres to do stuff.

>>96033909
> They are equivalent to saying Revenant Mages are the best when the book mentions that chances are, there are no Revenant Mages.
V20 retconned Blood Treachery. We now have a whole family of Verbenna adjacent Revenants and non-sucky Revenant Mage rules to boot.

>>96033868
Nosferatu clanbook > nonce fanfiction

>>96033923
I can actually point out Archmages, who done shit.
You are whiterooming. Ignoring everything from 1st Edition to M20, From Halls of Arcanum to the Sorcerer book itself.

>>96033903
>>96033927

Anon, that's a screenshot of a STV book. It's homebrew.
By sorcerer revised mechanics, summoning an archmage would be a level 5 ritual. Archmages are not angels demons or gods(though they can become those things post-ascension).

>>96033958
Nosferatu doesn't know shit about what happened to Baba Yaga then, because my own, Werewolf book called "Player's Guide to Garou", literally a main WTA source, says otherwise.

>>96033960
>You are whiterooming. Ignoring everything from 1st Edition to M20, From Halls of Arcanum to the Sorcerer book itself.
Nah. I'm using what the actual sorcerer books say.
Why you're getting butthurt has left me scratching my head as to why though. Are you some schizo magefag that's got a chip against sorcerers for some reason?

>>96033960
Doesn't mage20 literally say sorcerers and extraordinary citizens make up the majority of the traditions and technocrats? Even going all the way back to 2e horizon, the majority of the horizon realms were mundanes and linear mages.

>>96033960
>I can actually point out Archmages, who done shit.
And? If your stance is that factions without example NPCs don't exist, then you're a retard beyond all reason. The books themselves disagree with you.

>>96033974
Soo... you say that garou say a lot of bullshit, but use their player guide describing the earlier state of affairs as evidence against the definitive statement issued on a Nosferatu character by the Nosferatu book?

Why is their always some random fucker that schizos out when anons actually start having funpost discussions?

>>96034044
There was a funpost discussion?

>>96034051
Several, go back and read the thread.

>>96033985
I am a werewolfag.
>>96034001
Yes and that's the point. There are thousands of Sorceres and Extraordinary Citizens.
But a handful of them named, as a side note. Not as a powerful force or feared beings. But as a side note, like Kinfolk, like Ghouls, like Enchanted Mortals.
>>96034019
Arcanum disagrees, shows me a Sorcerer who can do Wards like that, Enchantments like that or you know, be relevant more than Kuei-jin in V20
>>96034020
I said Vasilike killed Baba Yaga, you said Werewolves killed it with their armies, I said you are mistaken, they said they killed Zmei, her dragon and Nosferatu in that book is mistaken. I am just clearing things up.

We know how Baba Yaga died, just like how Samuel Haight died, Shaitan died and Mithras got diablerized.
>>96034044
Where? If this is funpost discussion for you, you would have loved DaveB.

>>96034044
I don't really see x beats y as fun or productive discussions, but best bet would be not to respond and engage the idiot.

>>96033715
>Then there's also the satisfaction of seeing the twat fucked by Paradox or his own hubris, of course.
My ST is contemplating a Sorcerer campaign which will kick off in the aftermath of every single avatar mage getting paradoxed out of existence (possibly a variant of the Avatar Storm).

>>96034074
>Vasilike
Yet you can't even type its bloody name right, twice. Which shows that it's not a random typo, but that you're thoroughly ignorant about the discussed matter.

Oh well, probably shouldn't get agitated over this, I'm sorry if I given you any offence, arguing about this is pointless.
Allow me to explain myself, nonetheless. We have one definitive statement that lines up with the whole build up of Baba Yaga as the epic antagonist of Eastern European werewolves, and we have an inexcusably shitty optional adventure that ignores all that and strips players of all agency to furiously fellate previously never heard of child-seeming Mary Sue character that's obnoxiously stated to win in all cases - when Baba Yaga, for all her might, was statted, and possibly beatable.

I consider that to be dogshit, disrespectful to epic struggle of werewolves, disrespectful to Baba Yaga, who is probably the most significant Nosferatu and Slavic character of Vampire, and disrespectful to all previously involved authors. And author who wrote the adventure is all sorts of an awful person, besides that, who was thoroughly aided and abetted by OPP leadership before public stink from his misdemeanours became too significant to keep concealing. So I prefer to ignore this specific adventure.

I'm surprised that the 20th An. version of Book of the Wyrm didn't give Pentex a Starbucks parody.

>>96034067
That wasn't sarcasm, I'm genuinely not sure what you consider funposting and schizoing out.

>>96034141
Could be fun, though generally after the end stories are best done as an excuse to shake up and overhaul the state of affairs and core mechanics you don't like 'in-splat'.

IMHO mages shouldn't be involved much if at all in a Sorcerer and chronicles, and if you do, use HtR mechanics for them.

>>96033616
Yes, we know, V:tM wanks in everyone's face. Sutekh still ran away from Shu Horus.

>>96033369
Kinfolk aren't part of the pact that tracks Renown as W:tA figures it. They would get an unusual reputation and that's about it.

>>96033974
>>96034020

Generally, the structure of a Werewolf book is such that if no one is mentioned doing it, it's assumed to be a place for PCs to slot in. That's why Black Tooth was taken down by parties unknown as well. Ethan Skemp, the developer at the time, was not a fan of having big name NPCs show up to solve problems that were there to be hooks for people to play the game, as he saw Forgotten Realms firsthand and did not want to repeat its tendency to make people shrug and say "Just go get Elminster."

This is the vast gulf between Werewolf and Vampire, as the latter does not give a shit about the PCs and generally places them in a situation where they just watch shit happen powerlessly.

>>96034279

But they get background call renown in the kinfolk book. I know that Kinfolk have a harder time getting renown. I just don't know how practically that'd look for a kinfolk that could or does something like that.

>>96034279
>Generally, the structure of a Werewolf book is such that if no one is mentioned doing it, it's assumed to be a place for PCs to slot in. That's why Black Tooth was taken down by parties unknown as well. Ethan Skemp, the developer at the time, was not a fan of having big name NPCs show up to solve problems that were there to be hooks for people to play the game, as he saw Forgotten Realms firsthand and did not want to repeat its tendency to make people shrug and say "Just go get Elminster."
>This is the vast gulf between Werewolf and Vampire, as the latter does not give a shit about the PCs and generally places them in a situation where they just watch shit happen powerlessly.
Ah, yeah, that's the right of it. Well put.

Skemp is probably the best of revised major dev leads. The other good one is Sheppard and he barely had any time and authority to fix Heining shitting himself all over Mage Revised initial release. Achilli used to be half-decent author, but degenerated into creatively sterile rules lawyer from purveyor of mild filth (OG Giovanni book is where he peaked).

>>96033099
Yeah, just like they exterminated the
>checks notes
Werewolves, vampires, mummies, ghosts, changelings, to name the most common splats off the top of my head.

>>96034279
>They would get an unusual reputation and that's about it.
Anon, both kinfolk unsung heroes and a breed apart disagree.
The rules for kinfolk are that they can get 5 permanent and 10 temporary of each type, but can't hold rank above 0 so it's entirely social. Having it isn't necessarily a good thing though, since every elder and their mother will be looking to strip that renown from you since it makes garou with lower renown look bad(Unless you have the gnosis merit, then you're very clearly chosen by gaia for some unknown destiny and stinks-up-caern can pretend his lack of renown isn't because he's a lazy asshole).

>>96034393
Do you see many dragons now-a-days anon? It's an "exception that proves the rule" situation. The existing supernaturals are notable because literally everyone else is dead or fucked off into the umbra.

>>96034393
Technocrats can't ever properly win against anything playable cause there'd be less books to sell. And then there's diehard delusional fanboys.
Like, FFS, the developers killed off Ravana, full stop, deader than dead, period, and it didn't stop ChImErStY 10 MeReLy PrEtEnDiNg wankers none. Despite the bugger giving an infinitely better showing than any antediluvian before him could even hope to give.

>>96034393
>>96034417
That just gets me thinking. I know the Syndicate and Pentex have some loose ties but realistically Pentex should be the Technocracy's biggest pain in the ass since they're actually inventing new supernaturals with their Fomori and mockery breeds

>>96034074
>Arcanum disagrees
NTA, but how does arcanum even matter after the sorcerer books retconned most of what it talks about? How is "the actual sorcerer societies are better at sorcery than the self-important librarians" a hot take?

>>96034463
The issue most people had with ravnos is that VtM players didn't want a dragonballZ fight. They wanted the blood-gods of the political splat to be political and intelligent. Ravnos ran in like leroy jenkins and got his clan killed, which is the expected outcome to a retarded move like that. Doesn't matter how good a fight he gave, he's still a retard for doing it despite having Int 10.

>>96034466
You saying that as if three quarters of Progs aren't busy breeding new cryptid horrors (and then there are Iteration's mechanical monsters and Engineer's cthulhoid pets). And Syndicate politely ignoring Pentex's crimes cause it shits on deviants and makes a tidy profit.

>>96034509
And the NWO is seething about every single one of those, but got out-voted at the conference.

>>96034507
Allowing trait ratings over 5 was one of the biggest mistakes of Vampire, to begin with but antediluvians evolving into some kind of unbeatable kaiju is pre-Gehenna thing, yeah.

>>96034509
I feel like the Technocracy shouldn't let Pentex off easy for shitting on reality deviants when they're arguably a bigger threat than all of them combined

>>96034535
Not so much in 1e-2e. They even gave us what the 10th dot did for each discipline back then, none of this "plot device" bullshit. I have no fucking clue why they retconned gen 3 into being an impossible to comprehend state when tremere elders with path of blood 3 know the exact mechanics. It's not like they had a problem with statless methusela and explaining they had so many elder+combo disciplines that listing them would be pointless.

>>96034398
>since every elder and their mother will be looking to strip that renown from you since it makes garou with lower renown look bad
kek

>>96034560
Alas, certain lead developers (Brucato, Heining, Brucato again, but not Mage's leads alone) and many a writer believe that Technocracy must be utterly ignorant and incompetent, and despite being the force of progress and improvement should be an agent of stasis and stagnation for for it to have place in the setting.

>>96034603
Shit like this is why I wish they didn't let a retard take control of the samuel height storyline. The garou had a kinfolk rebellion coming, but it got sidelined by writer than wanted to self insert as a half werewolf, half vampire, half mage DevPC.

>>96034697
Haight's tribe placement is also terrible IMO. Cool subversion, sure, but now every dipshit fury uses his example to assume the higher moral ground.

Bitch, you murder random innocent men as recreation and keep, abuse and rape a slave, your family kills their sons for shits and giggles, a fanatical Red Talon is more of an upstanding wolf than you.

>>96034398
Werewolf mothers for equity?

>>96034217
odds are they couldn't come up with a way to make it interesting or there was to much overlap with other subsidiaries.

Are Rokea still relevant?

>>96034955
My ST did one and called it "Apollo's" (because he's a massive dork like that).

>>96035264
Rokea were never relevant.

>>96035264
>Are Rokea still relevant?
Do you ever run games set at sea?

>>96035306
>Do you ever run games set at sea?
The campaign I played in was set BY the sea, but one of the other players begged our ST not to include them.

>>96035264
Would've been good to play a game set at sea, but I'm more of a kraken person.

Octomommy is a nice patron, too, way better than any sort of a surface wyrm avatar.

>>96035329
>one of the other players begged our ST not to include them
Why though? Nothing's better as a reality check on some stuffy, self-important pricks. Lasombra especially.

>>96035264
No. Their japanese counterpart are much better.

>>96035369
>Why though?
Not sure. I think he just thought they were silly (while people who turned into dinosaurs were perfectly fine).

>>96035387
For all the aversion towards the Unsea of normal Rokea, Same-Bito are absolutely the last and least of all Asian supernaturals.

I've heard that Mage Revised is meant to be grounded and avoid crazy scenarios including real hopping.
Meanwhile, all the games I've played not only ignore the Avatar Storm, but are everything except grounded. I'm talking entire towns being infected with zombie plagues, etherite kamen riders, nephandi summoning sea serpents, marauders that turn their surroundings into either disney cartoons or Frank Frazetta barbarian fantasies and other shit that not only calls for the use of vulgar effects, but also makes the technocrats work overtime to cover it up.
Are we doing something wrong, or were the authors just wrong by trying to "ground" the least grounded splat?

>>96035577
>Are we doing something wrong, or were the authors just wrong by trying to "ground" the least grounded splat?
The latter. Mage is inherently a wild ride splat that Heining (the person in charge Revised Core) tried to force down to ditch level with absolutely zero success.

>>96035281
I don't get it.

>>96035726
Apollo and Starbuck were the names of the two main characters in an old sci-fi show called Battlestar Galactica.

>>96035577
>>96035710
>in charge of
Anyway, trying to force Mage down is pointless endeavour than will gain you nothing but scorn.

If you or your ST want grounded muck wizards - go with Sorcerer (though they still do get up to bullshit if their players are clever enough), or thaumaturges without blood costs (though definitely assign different pools for different paths, so they don't use 10 Willpower dice for everything).

>>96035748
understandable.

>>96034217
What would they call it? Queequegs? Ishmaels? Stubbs? Tashtegos? Flasks?

>>96035990
SunNegros

>>96033149
In a male-dominated close-knit society (even WW acknowledge it), you can't get ahead without looking like a sexy bitch.
The local tzimisce is a very rich cainite.

>>96033367
That's like saying "how can I kill a supernatural creature?"
It's too broad. You use different methods for different creatures.
Tremere for example usually specialize in auspex, dominate, and thaumaturgy. Auspex means you generally can't sneak up on them, Dominate means if you enter a face-down and didn't pump your WP to the gills you might as well kys and save yourself the humiliation, and Thaumaturgy generally means they're immune to your first staking shot and can nae nae a few flamethrowers (as well as shoot their own on average).

You counter that with ol' reliable: "no be there". If you don't wanna use a sniper (or more likely the guy's too paranoid to walk anywhere without some kind of shield bubble), you prep a car bomb, holy water infused nails if you can get them.
If you can't track or predict his route, drugging his food can cause him to make enough mistakes for an alternate plan.
Don't try to enter his lair, he's probably got it tricked up more than your average victorian ghost with a "ward vs dumbasses" ritual he paid a life boon for. Track down his ghouls if he's got any, or if you're really lucky and charismatic, another vampire that just really hates his guts (no shortage of those, even within their own clan) and plan an appropriate trap.
On the latter, bait using mystical tomes, fae contracts, garou parts, or anything you can acquire or convincingly fake can be very effective. Ripping off other splats is their bread and butter, and they're a pyramid scheme that started out with their progenitor sucking a guy off for his power, so you're very likely to get a bite on that bait.

All that said and done, never underestimate their preparations nor abilities. Any one of them who's survived long enough to be a worthy target probably went through dozens of assassination or even outright murder attempts, and they'd have become very adept at dodging the grim reaper like they owe him money.

>>96033392
One of the first rituals they learn is how to extinguish fire, especially since all their neonates learn Lure Of Flames as their first path.

>>96035264
Of course. Just wait until the dirtwalkers are up to their eyeballs in Enfolded Churloviah in the inevitable onlap that floods the land.

>>96034020
You'd think if anyone would want to claim they killed her, it'd be the werewolves?

>>96033367
Kill them with excessive amounts of sex with hot girls.

>>96034417
>>96034463
So in a meta sense, you can in fact have a giants splat, you just need to justify them surviving. Going "hurr durr but technocracy would exterminate them" is counterproductive to the whole thought experiment.

>>96033173
kek

>>96036183
Would work only on about a fifth of them (incels).

The rest are either voluntarily celibate, have a spouse, fuck so much they will survive a tryst with a nuclear explosion, or can and will fuck a God to death given opportunity.

And worst of all you can't always tell by their appearance which one is before you.

>>96036200
You can easily shove them into the other realms but you need to do decide what they are tied to.

>>96036200
You could also just set them in dark ages where the pogrom hasn't happened yet. IT'd be pretty hard to justify how everyone missed the 30ft giant woman when every degenerate freak with a camera would be losing their minds trying to get her to eat/step on/whatever them and filming the whole thing

>>96036183
The before picture was better. There's such a thing as too much tits for a bodytype, especially when she doesn't have a proportionate amount of added ass.

>>96036303
>>96036320
You can give them natural camouflage the same way Changelings/Garou/Vampires have, except instead of masquerading as humans, they just sit still and look like a mountain, tree, or other terrain features. Think the norse trolls, leshy, loch ness, etc.

>>96036425
Maybe they puppet humans around with their magic to interact with the mundane people.

>>96036485
Like Wraiths do, you mean?

And you don't need a human, strictly speaking.
A longcoat, pair of groves, and realistic permanent makeup does suffice more often than you'd think.

Okay so what is Wraith ACTUALLY about?
Because from what I can gather it's meant to be a more introspective game with doom and gloom always present, your interactions with humans being sparse and requiring special skills. You're in constant danger from everywhere, including within yourself, and big part of the narrative is fighting your inner demons while resolving your past conflicts...
But at the same time this shit has Doomslayers literally going down the darkest, dankest parts of the underworld to fuck shit up (sometimes for fun), Arcanoi range from boring ghost bullshit to "literally transform yourself into anything bro you're fucking cartoon Beetlejuice but with license to give yourself blades. Did I mention you can do this to other ghosts to make their eternity miserable while they become your evil-slaying sword", and if that's not over the top enough there's also apparently fucking Ghost Godzilla too.
So am I supposed to play a gloomy and grounded take on the liminal state between death and the afterlife? Or am I supposed to play the most 90s gothic action anime directed and produced by Tim Burton and Koji Igarashi?

>>96036547
>Like Wraiths do, you mean?
Kinda, the ones in Exalted had that particular trick so I'm just thinking about how much you could take from them.

>>96036612
From my experience it's predominantly about surviving brutal totalitarian bureaucracy staffed by obstructive assholes and malicious agents, fighting rebels without a cause that are all subverted or are genuinely trying to make things worse, screwing other wraiths and the living over for minute gain and your survival, if it can be called that, dealing with consequences of your evil side that continuously grows stronger and more cunning taking over now and then, and wistfully trying to vicariously relive things that made you happy in life, all while trying to carry out the grudges and protect the attachments that caused you to linger.

What should be the next the TQ?

>>96036743
>What's a flaw your character took that made a more compelling chronicle, while actually inconveniencing you and your party?

>>96036739
>It's about asshole who, even in death, don't change themselves for the better
>What made you think the afterlife was any better than regular life

>>96036743
This one >>96036767 is good, but if you want something else, you could ask about time travel/alternate timelines.

>>96036836
That might be mage-exclusive

>>96036901
Demons (Descent) and Deviants too.

>>96036924
Mummies love time travel as well

the montmartre pact was a mistake

>>96037070
A what now? Some sort of V5's retardation? Sure.

>>96037096
no it's pact that forbids tremere in the camarila to make any sort of monsters, originally it only forbid gargoyles but in v20 they included all thaumaturgical monster creations to it and said that if you are caught you might even be punished for homunculi

>>96037070
Just be subtle when creating gargoyles. Nobody cares when a couple gangrene disappear.
To be fair, a version of the ritual using brujah and Caitiff would be ideal.

>>96037110
So it's V20's retardation, same difference, can be safely ignored.

Gargoyles were created with zero issue even in Revised anyhow, so it's some ignorant idiot making up shit once again.

>>96037070
just join the sabbat and make yourself a blood brother/hungry sister harem

>>96037122
>To be fair, a version of the ritual using brujah and Caitiff would be ideal.
Has to be monstrous bloodline's blood.
Nossies are the best blood donors for gargle making. They don't share propriety concerns of other kindred, so they can donate vats of their blood easily. Get a clear with your regent on what you can help your nossie buddy with, officiate your deal with a blood contract and you and your dear friend can give a birth to something grrreat, mighty and terrible and beautifully monstrous.

>>96037137
> hungry sister
Fucking Sabbat agents trying to turn Camarilla kindred into hot girls.

>>96037171
And heck, if your nossie buddy is tired of being a nossie or dreams of the skies, you can use him instead of a mortal, give him wings and flight, and prehensile tail, and second pair of arms, and even fire breath! And with your ritual support the whole susceptible to mind control thing stops being an issue as the enemy disciplines backfire on them.

>>96037185
that used to be the life long goal of all tremere! ask what's his name with the embrace potion! it's just that the Camarilla lead them astray

they are a tzimisce bloodline after all

>>96037243
Cat girl, loli, cute girl and even the rebis alchemical preparations are superior to the Mexican abomination.

>>96037243
>>96037272
Flesh can't compare to firmness of stone, to grace one can only find in three dimensions, to wind in the wings. Flesh spoils and rots.

Gargoyles are eternal.

speaking of tremere, thanks to the anon who mentioned the humors in house tremere earlier those are pretty interesting

>>96037350
>humors in house tremere
Some good ideas in that book, Populate Night's Gardens is a solid contender for best ritual of all time.

Pity that V20 only took the worst one, and then made it even worse.

>>96037346
>Gargoyles are eternal slaves.
Fixed for you, bro.

>>96037346
Stone isn't strong, boy. Flesh is stronger. What is stone compared to the hand that sculpts it?

>>96037379
servants, anon, willing servants! we talked about that

>>96037371
yo that's close to the entire bio thaum path as a single ritual

it's even better than the path unless you want to make humanoid frankenstein monsters

>>96037379
Libel! Gargoyles are the best boys and girls, brave, loyal, patient, clever, worthy of every praise and improvement you could bestow.
>>96037389
My will and mind and hands shapes the stone, true, then stone protects the hand forevermore. No longer vulnerable to blades and hammers and fire and grasping claws and perfidious, impermanent flesh.

>>96037428
Right!? One of the best gifts to monster makers White Wolf ever printed.

>>96037454
>only level 3 ritual
>converting bloodpoints into monster stats with no timelimit, limitation on who's blood it has to be or generation limit
i always did find it weird that one of the hermetic books mentions that the tremere had at least a handful of dragons during the omen war. What if they just really roided up some lizard bat hybrids with that ritual?

>>96037454
honestly that ritual makes the gargoyle ritual kinda look weak in comparison, i guess gargoyles been preferable to hybrid monsters when fighting tzimisce because they are a animalism clan but in general it would be very easy to make something more powerful than a char-gen gargoyle with this ritual... that is two ranks lower and would not piss off other vampires as much

>>96037482
Pretty much. Mind you, the ritual still hakes a lot of time and blood, more blood the more impressive the creature you want to make, and sometimes exotic, difficult to source components, and you'd want to make a breeding pair cause the lifespan of initially created prototypes is quite short for the amount of resource and effort (and that's at least double the investment, sometimes much more if you're unlucky), then you have to consider how you would train them, and control the if needs to be...

Still, a fantastic thing.

Bonus: if you've grown particularly fond of one creature, you can use Soul of the Earth ritual (assistance of a gargoyle necessary) to embrace in into the Gargoyle bloodline, so it would remain with you beyond its natural lifespan (and gain flight if it didn't have any).

>>96037513
Gargoyles have roughly human intelligence and behaviour baseline, are easier to train and guide and (eventually) can reproduce without massive blood and time costs. There was also the banal problem of needing to do something with PoWs of the Omen War, I suspect.

PNG is a massive investment that might go awry on the best day - even if everything goes fine Night Gardens creatures don't necessarily act like you want them to, or anything like their components, and the stronger it is, the more difficult it is to corral and train with the best of intentions.

I agree that it's massively underrated and unfairly neglected, though.

>>96037546
>I agree that it's massively underrated and unfairly neglected, though.
that's the fate of most stuff the goratrix faction did in the dark age books it seems. it's kinda wild how like 25% of all tremere rituals in these books seem to be made by the same 3 people who then never shared them

>>96037243
Speaking of mad magicians, why aren't there more "wizard" tzimisce in modern nights. It seems to be right up their alley
>Reclusive
>Scholarly
>Clan philosophy dedicated to Munchkinry
>many of them are already sorcerer's to some degree
>makes minions and things that could pass for homunculi and familiars
>Notorious hoarders
>Wear funny hats

Surely there must be a few fiends running around in modern nights who try to collect as much magical lore and arcane power

>>96037568
Old Clan Koldun exist lol, they just prefer to stay in Russia and Carpathians.

And to lesser degree Sabbat reserchers also exist.

>>96037568
Because a lot of Tzimisce blood magic is tied to the land and apparently no Kolduns decided to take the time to attune themselves to the pine barrens or the Yucatan peninsula. That and it's often forgotten that any Tzimisce can be Koldun, that it's not an old clan exclusive thing.

That and their clan culture has leaned more and more towards being a Vic-obsessed flesh freak at the expense of all else.

>>96037598
>any Tzimisce can be Koldun, that it's not an old clan exclusive thing.
This I don't like much, Koldun are intrinsically tied to Slavic paganism, which clashes horribly with Vicissitude's ideology and aesthetics.

Sabbat Tzimisce should learn generic Thaumaturgy like they used to.

>>96037568
because koldun's always been really rare due to white wolf's obession with low splat numbers

it's mentioned in one of the dark age books that during the height of koldunic sorcery there only been a few dozen

>>96037642
Honestly I don't really care for "old clan" Tzimisce in general, especially since there's two different versions of "old clan". One of which is an actual bloodline and directly tied to the Space AIDS plotline and the Tal'mahe'ra , the other of which is just a political distinction. That and they're mostly a post-hoc creation to better justify the tenuous Dracula connection they just sort of stapled onto the Tzimisce. Also, I'm of the opinion that when a clan gets too tied to a single location and culture they rapidly turn into one-note caricatures. Personally I'd just kill the old clan distinction entirely, save perhaps as a specific term for Tzimisce autarkis.

As for Koldunism being tied to slavic paganism, I don't know enough about the subject (and was under the impression most of what we know about slavic paganism is reconstructed rather than certain with sources) to make any statement there. However, I would ask why one would presume the inhuman bastard clan would practice a pure form of religion, rather than a debased and twisted mirror of it?

>>96037167
>>96037167
>>96037167

>>96033566
>the proper way of killing a mage is getting them into a philosophical argument
As a mundane regular human Hunter , I find this completly false. There is no point of arguing with nerds/weird gorth/Pseudo-hobbo individual.
I'm sadden by the lack of utility a good ol' punch in the face againts a mage can do.

>>96033724
That's how you detect Changelings. The next step is subdue them and then make them do regular forms. 9 out of 10 times this works for torturing them. Nothing like good ol' burocratic shit.

>>96033743
Man, this is exactly what I was looking for the other day. As another anon said, Mages and, by some measure, sorceres, they work with Batman rules: If they have PrepTime(TM) they can basically win anything.

>>96036106
>Any one of them who's survived long enough to be a worthy target probably went through dozens of assassination or even outright murder attempts
Ok but hear me out... Coffe Bomb

>>96036261
>And worst of all you can't always tell by their appearance which one is before you.
GODDAMMIT , NOTHING IS NEVER EASY FOR STEVE EH?!