At what point in time did D&D cease to be old school? Here are some possible candidates.

2015: Critical Role debuts, beginning a D&D normification process that continued with Stranger Things.

2008: 4th edition releases. Nothing like any previous D&D edition and poorly received. The OSR takes shape.

2000: WotC gains control of D&D and releases 3rd edition, dropping the "Advanced" from the title and ending the Basic line. The complexity and amount of splatbooks implicitly discourage homebrewing.

1989: AD&D 2nd edition is released. Its mechanics, tone and DM advice had drifted away from old-school-style play.

1986: Gygax leaves TSR, though his influence was already waning by that point.

1983: Tipping point where most modules are written with increasing assumptions of plot-based or heroic play. Dragonlance releases the next year.

1979: Advanced Dungeons and Dragons becomes a complete system with the release of its last book. Gygax stated a major motivation for doing so was standardizing the rules and preventing house ruling and unofficial hacks like the Arduin Grimoire. Some of D&D's DIY spirit dies.

1975: Greyhawk Supplement I was released, introducing the thief class and drastically reducing how parties engaged with things like stealth and trapfinding via player description and D&D adjudication. The beginning of "push button on character sheet to win" style play.

1974: The original Dungeons and Dragons is released, packaging and watering down the vibrant and creative campaign run by Dave Arneson, and bringing in tens of thousands of normies. 1974 is considered by most to be the definitive demise of the Old School.

>>96027303 (OP)
Have you ever consider stop making d&d threads or is this what you want to do with the limited time you have on Earth until the end of your mortal lifespan?

Runequest ended the old school by inventing general unified skill rolls.

>>96027303 (OP)
Roughly 1984 when Gygax lost control over TSR was when the official support for old school play started getting killed off more and more in everything that got published.
What little good came after were largely freelancer remnants who still remembered what was actually fun about D&D.
>>96027369
Runequest was also very old school D&D pulp in it's first editions. Pavis, Big Rubble, Griffin Mountain, Snake Pipe Hollow, Apple Lane etc.
Sandy Petersen used to argue in favor of that kind of pulp play and against the terrible kind of LARP shit that Runequest fell into in the mid-90s when Stafford's yes-men started running thing

>>96027325
This is the only D&D thread I've made this year.

If your goal was to make a tired discussion more and more absurd as a joke, I read it and smiled a bit at the last 3 and the idea of someone defending that Dave Arneson was the cut off point for true old school.

If this was meant as a serious thread then I'm laughing at you.

>>96027488
You can do better.

>>96027303 (OP)
I think 83-86 is the most reasonable. However, it's worth noting that Dragonlance et al were the result of player demand and people within TSR liking the Hickman's narrative-focused style of play. Realistically, the culture of play the OSR focused on was endangered in 80-81.

>>96027629
>endangered before Hickman ever was published by TSR
Their first module for TSR was in 1983 and they didn't really take off until later.
Incidentally most of their early modules are fine for old school adventuring once you rub out the retarded railroading and setting stuff. They even played it mostly like one going by the Annotated Chronicles, in the real game Sturm died falling down a well.
Not to say they had particularly good ideas for the game because they didn't but the really big offenders of the stereotypical "trad" games are really the people who came after they left and imitated their style. Like the people who wrote Ravenloft II: Cook, Grubb, Johnson, Niles etc.

>>96027303 (OP)
When 3e was released and the whole thing became about builds.

>>96027303 (OP)
This one.

>>96027303 (OP)
I think it’s around 2000. 3e feels very much like a middle period of dnd. Other systems also had a similar feel at the time, just look at vtm 3rd ed.

3e release is the right answer. I know this because as a 5etard I'm okay with playing 3e but I wouldn't wanna play anything from before then.

>>96027303 (OP)
By 2nd edition it was obvious that heroic fantasy was way more popular, but it was always a thing really.

>>96027303 (OP)
there's old school, and then there's when it became trendy marvel-quip slop. critical role made d&d more popular than ever, and was the end of d&d. This happened to all tabletop games around the same time, +- ~5 years

>>96028036
which is true and funny, because DCC tries hard to feel like 1982 but with a 2002 rules-set

>>96027303 (OP)
The OSR started as a response to 3rd edition being released, just around the year 2000. There was fear that WotC would never reprint the older editions (because they didn't want competition for 3.0).

>When did the old school end?
Never, really. People are still playing in various "old school" styles even in 2025.

>>96027480
This is a bad joke, considering 2e and 1e are extremely similar and the differences largely just alleviate some of the more tedious forms of bookkeeping. The only people who care about 1984 are the Gygaxian cultists, who everyone wishes would just go off and play Lejendary Journeys if they really want to suck his nuts so hard.

The Gygaxian cultists are still just bitter that 2e was a huge success and no one followed Gygax as he basically fell off a cliff.

>>96027303 (OP)
It was gradular and had more to do with video games than any changes to D&D. Diablo was probably the final nail in its coffin.

>>96028372
>OSR
>2000
A common recton of history, but the OSR asit exists today didn't really start until around 2007. The modern OSR community loathes everything about FLAILSNAILS and the simulacrum games that it was built upon.

>>96027480
>Roughly 1984 when Gygax lost control over TSR
The speed with which insider information and gossip are bandied about, today, bears no resemblance whatsoever to what communication was like in the 80s and 90s. The overwhelming majority of D&D players didn't know who Gygax was, nor give a shit. This is all theory crafting from the information you have today, and bears no resemblance to the reality of the 80s and 90s.

>>96027303 (OP)
Old school ended with the release of Baldur's Gate game. From that moment on, people looked at DnD through video game lens.

>>96028447
I agree with you about video games but think that's pretty late. Honestly by 1994 we were bored of dungeon crawls. They felt old and lame. I think that Diablo was probably the last game that finally put that style of gaming to bed. Even Baldur's Gate was strongly story driven instead of the game being focused on dungeons. By the time of Dungeon Hack in 1993, video games had already made us feel like a ttrpg had to have something more to it than just "explore place, get loot, level, repeat."

>>96028372
>The OSR started as a response to 3rd edition being released, just around the year 2000. There was fear that WotC would never reprint the older editions (because they didn't want competition for 3.0).
The OSR as we know it has a lot more to do with the double whammy of Gygax's death and 4e sparking an interest in older versions of the game - as well as the waning supply of TSR-era physical books in decent condition, especially softback modules, and only bootleg PDFs bringing a lot of people to retroclones like LL and OSRIC.

2003-6 with C&C and the initial OSRIC release and Gygax answering questions on Dragonsfoot is the OSR prehistory imo.

>>96028581
Agreed. I was part of that backlash after 3e. We went back to playing 2e. It wasn't fear that things wouldn't get rereleased... we still had the things. It really had nothing to do with what people mean today by "OSR." We were just playing 2e.

>>96028402
>2000- 3.0 is released.
>2001- Hackmaster is released with rules compatible with AD&D, but with parody elements and WotC's blessing thanks to them using the creator's Knight of the Dinner Table comics in their publications
>2002- Dragonsfoot forums begin to become popular for "old school" gaming discussion, and the "Old School Revival" begins to be discussed.
>2004- Castles and Crusades is released as an effort to reclaim the "spirit" of older editions while using the OGL rules to avoid WotC's lawyers

Now, here's the part you're talking about.
>2005- A group tries to start a "civil war" on the Dragonsfoot forums, with a strong stance regarding "purity" and rejecting 2e and any later edition. After the Dragonsfoot mods refused to accept their ideas or even that any of these sort of ideas should be enforced, the small group of dissenters ended up splitting off and forming their own forum, the "Knights and Knaves Alehouse", but it fails to gather more than a few hundred people at most (compared to the thousands on Dragonsfoot).
>2006- The K&KA release OSRIC, their own version of a C&C style OGL game in the spirit of earlier editions

Further down the timeline, and we have more publishers creating OSR games and OSR compatible content, but there becomes a desire to indicate that there is "OSR" and either "BroSR" or "NuSR" or "OSR-lite/like/adjacent" systems. Oddly enough, these terms started out with the intention to be derisive and derogatory to the new systems, but it's gotten to the point where many creators are happy to use these new labels in order to distance themselves from the increasingly negative reputation that the OSR community has slowly garnered due to a mix of gatekeeping, proxy-pol conflicts, controversial designers, and other things related to the K&KA mindset. That, and an increasing popularity and desire for games that are "old school" in flavor but not "old school" in terms of being dated and clumsily designed.

>>96028402
Lol what's FLAILSNAILS

>>96028581
In all seriousness it's interesting how missteps by D&D (or rather the megacorporation that is entitled to it as intellectual property) can create vibrancy. 4th edition turbocharged the OSR and the OGL debacle brought a huge increase in indie fantasy RPGs.

>>96029855
There's a ton of interesting minutia in TSR's history. They tried making IP titles, they bought SPI just to never republish anything in that catalogue, they accidentally pushed some japs into making a game that to this day outsales D&D in Japan, I heard somewhere that they had a D&D phoneline to pay by the minute some dude to DM for you. It's super wacky bullshit.

>>96029876
>they accidentally pushed some japs into making a game that to this day outsales D&D in Japan
What game?

>>96029882
Sword World
It plays like a fantasy anime, up to Adventurer Guild operations being codified in the player manual. Some people really like it, it's more game-y than most D&D, but I feel it's a matter of better understanding the market. D6 because d20s were super rare, pregens with cool anime art, being tied to an anime as promotion (Lodoss War), tons of replays (transcriptions of sessions, sometimes with famous authors or voice actors, analogue actual plays).

I have a general idea about it, but never played it. The japanese games thread can tell you much more.

>>96027303 (OP)
2000 with D&D 3rd edition release

>>96027303 (OP)
Old school ended 2000, there was a period of stability then it went to shit 2008 onwards.

>>96028372
>considering 2e and 1e are extremely similar
The modules and assumed playstyle couldn't be more different.
You have to try really hard to find a good old school-style module for 2E.

>>96028631
You've already been schooled on this bs multiple times so you know you're factually incorrect and still choosing to repeat this nonsense in a dishonest fashion so i'll just say that anyone who bothers checking things out will know just how ridiculous it is to call Castles & Crusades old school when it's stripped down 3.5E or to pretend that the K&K guys aren't the originators of the actual OSR despite OSRIC being the beginning of all modern retro clone efforts no matter how much that fact makes co-opters red in the face.

No one actually wants to be called the nusr either, as evinced by the fact that calling something that makes the people behind it rage about evil gatekeepers and how everything is totally OSR even non-D&D games.

>>96027303 (OP)
3e is the final, definitive and ultimate removal of anything oldschool from DnD.
Mid-80s is when stuff that OSR fags obsess over got sidelined.

When wizards took over

>>96027303 (OP)
anyone who doesn't know that the old school became "the old school" instead of just what the discourse is like when 3rd edition and especially 3.5e took the world by storm so hard that it almost sounded like a good idea to make D20 Modern with it is either lying or retarded.
and frankly, I wish the old school was more dead, with their bleating about wanting less rules as if locking shit like how much damage you can do by goomba stomping a goblin or how flammable grease from the Grease spell is behind reading the GM's mind is supposed to spontaneously make players more inventive.

>>96029855
>the OGL debacle brought a huge increase in indie fantasy RPGs.
First up, stop calling it that. Second, most of those games were already in the works before these two weeks. The only difference is that they went from using the SRD under OGL to not knowing if they could publish to using the SRD under CC-BY.

>>96027303 (OP)
2000, but fantasy stopped being old school in the 1990s when it all shifted from sword and sandal to generic kitchen sink where every fantasy setting is multidimensional and has space ships and robots and all that other crap. By the time 3e dropped the golden age of fantasy had veen dead for nearly a decade.

>>96027303 (OP)
The answer is [your age] minus 15 years. Alphas will look at 4e as some lost-tech artifact of ages past and make retarded videos lementing its failure.

>>96030228
Oh wow, we've got a live one, right out of K&KA!
>how ridiculous it is to call Castles & Crusades old school when it's stripped down 3.5E

Because it had to be. WotC owned the rights to every D&D edition, and everyone was scared of their lawyers. C&C did the clever thing of using the OGL as a backdoor to enable an approximation of old school style play without getting WotC's lawyers involved.

Also, C&C wasn't the first. The arguable first OSR would be Hackmaster, though that largely fell into disuse as the OSR gained more options. C&C was the first OSR game made without explicit consent from WotC, essentially opening up the door for other smaller publishers, and even was endorsed by Gary Gygax.

>pretend that the K&K guys aren't the originators of the actual OSR
They were far from it. And, the ironic thing is the OSRIC is really just following in the footsteps of C&C, being an OGL-compatible retroclone. It simply saw the success that C&C achieved and the method it took to do so, and pushed the idea further. It was also considerably less polished and janky, being more of an amalgamation of rules systems from more than a dozen authors that really swings in terms of quality.

No one except the K&K guys would call the OSRIC the first OSR game, especially because it came out in 2006, two years after C&C and also without ever garnering much widespread adoption, despite it being made with its own open license to encourage compatible material.

>>96030407
>this dumb fag has never heard of the Expedition to the Barrier Peaks

>>96030923
Someone who knows what they're talking about.

>>96030337
>First up, stop calling it that.
Why?

>>96031430
NTA, but the OGL was always just a largely worthless document that didn't actually give people any legal rights they didn't already have, and only served as a half-promise that WotC wouldn't sue if you acknowledged it (even though they did with the BoEF). The outcry was about the changes in the 5e OGL that would impact the DM's Guild publishing platform, which for the most part no one on /tg/ actually bothered to use or publish through because you'd have to be an idiot to do so, considering the kind of rights you had to sign away.

It was a whole big nontroversy, created by Redditors who were trying to break away from a publishing platform once they thought they were too big for it and its current structure was no longer to their benefit, primarily using twitter to try and stir up outrage with trolls on /tg/ jumping on the bandwagon because they're desperate for any D&D hate they could get their hands on. All the proposed changes that WotC wanted to make only affected the publishing platforms they themselves controlled, and only impacted people making more than $750k, which meant only a handful of people, who had used those very platforms to make that much money.

It's a surprising low percentage of people who understood the situation beyond "WotC is trying to copyright imagination!" and other similar nonsense. There's even people unaware that you can't copyright game rules and the 3.0 OGL wasn't some charitable donation, but a document that did little more than provide an alternative logo people could use on their books to indicate they were compatible with the system, since WotC wanted to protect the "D&D" name and brand. That's the primary reason behind the "d20" system logo/name, and the only thing the OGL actually granted.

This wasn't /tg/'s fight, but the trolls on /tg/ didn't care. They were glad people were spamming WotC hate, and were glad to misinform people about the situation.

I'm not a big fan of WotC. But I hate bullshit more.

>>96030923
>>96031333
>samefagging to boot
No, no one had to make a 3.5E since 1E mechanics were under the OGL as well.
What C&C "accomplished" was disappointing a bunch of grogs (including people who worked with them on products) through false marketing which made a couple of them like Marshall and Finch decide to do an actual old-school clone so they could publish actual old school adventures for it.
>No one except the K&K guys would call the OSRIC the first OSR game
Except for everyone in the OSR including the blogosphere and ragonsfoot i.e. basically everyone before plebbitors found out about it.
Also lol on top of whining about them you know fuckall about them, the K&K grogs haven't cared about "the OSR" in several years after all the entryists started abusing it to mean whatever they felt like and they don't even use the term themselves anymore because they don't want the association.

>>96030545
Nah I was 13 when 3E came out and "old school" was definitely closing out around then. There's fuzziness because it's more of a bunch of things phasing out than a hard stop, but 3E was *not* the DnD my dad grew up playing the way AD&D was, and it didn't more similar from there.

>>96031502
>since 1E mechanics were under the OGL as well.
100% wrong.
I don't think you understand... really, anything.

To start, game mechanics, of any kind, are not protected by copyright to begin with. What the OGL opened up was the ability to copy-paste text from the SRD (which had really nothing to do with 1e besides sharing things like legacy spell names) without fearing legal reprisal. You could always copy any D&D edition's mechanics if you reworded them.

The problem is that it doesn't matter if it's completely legal if you don't have the money/time to fight any legal challenges, and people were scared of WotC because Gygax/TSR/WotC had all filed hundreds of lawsuits against D&D competitors over the years, and even the publishers that did win lost months or even years of vital revenue while battling injunctions. Ironically, TSR hit Gygax with these sort of lawsuits against his Dangerous Journeys game, partly out of spite and partly out of just karma.

People had to test the waters to see just how firm the supposed promise of the OGL was. C&C took a fairly brave step onto thin ice, and when the ice held firm, more direct adaptions of previous editions could cross after it.
>publish actual old school adventures for it.
Gygax himself adapted some of his adventures for C&C.

>Except for everyone in the OSR including the blogosphere and ragonsfoot
Except that's not true at all. Everywhere else on the internet has C&C cited as one of the first, with Hackmaster as a proto/honorary OSR. We even have the dragonsfoot forums with posts still existing as far back as 2002, so we're not even talking about some lost history here.

> the K&K grogs haven't cared
The K&K forums died because it was always just a small group that never accomplished much. The only thing that endures from its legacy is weird little people like you who seem to want to ensure that the OSR name is only attached to the type of grognards that everyone has always avoided and hated.

>>96031475
>The outcry was about the changes in the 5e OGL that would impact the DM's Guild publishing platform
Where are you getting this information? This article lists other changes people were upset about and doesn't even mention the DM's Guild https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2023/01/19/dungeons-and-dragons-open-game-license-wizards-of-the-coast-explained/

>>96031475
>That's the primary reason behind the "d20" system logo/name, and the only thing the OGL actually granted.
Small correction, the d20 System License was a separate agreement that actually allowed you to use the logo and trademarks. It was what publishers like AEG, FFG or Mongoose used for stuff like this.

>>96031717
Largely that the 5e OGL had no power whatsoever outside of platforms WotC themselves controlled. You could publish 5e compatible material entirely without any regard whatsoever for WotC's licenses, and many publisher's cheekily did so by saying their material was "5e compatible". Key thing to note is that it's not "D&D 5e Compatible," just "5e compatible."

WotC challenged this, and while they could slam the hammer down on anyone that dared to use the D&D name, they couldn't do anything about people just using a number and a letter. You can be assured that's the reason why 6e in its development hell has gone through several names, with none of them being "6e".

The WotC's DM's guild (and other WotC platforms) is really the only place where they could perform that proposed $750k+ revenue scraping, because everywhere else WotC couldn't touch a penny anyway. WotC inherited Gygax's and TSR's legacy of really shitty lawsuits, which is partly what made them issue the original OGL to begin with. The courts had ruled against them so often, that rather than admitting defeat, they chose to pretend that they were being benign.

By the time of 5e, publishers had already used the 3.0 OGL to widen what they could publish so much that even highly successful near-clones like Pathfinder were on the table. Even 5e has near clones, and WotC just has no case against them, so no way to exert any kind of control.

>>96031656
>actually game mechanics aren't copyrightable
Not really tried in court despite all the claims otherwise.
>Gygax himself adapted some of his adventures for C&C.
Because he got paid by Troll Lords and co-operators like Talanian were willing to do most of the work.
>Except that's not true at all.
It is and no matter how many people you give a 3 day ban for "off-topic" correcting your lies on the subject won't change that fact.
>The K&K forums died
Because they're mostly on discord.
>the OSR name
No one would give a shit if it weren't for transparent co-opters like yourself trying to ruin the /osrg/ general. You don't even really give a shit about 2E like you pretend, it's only an entrypoint for you to attack parts of the general.

>>96031879
>Not really tried in court despite all the claims otherwise.
Wut.
>Because he got paid
I don't think Gygax ever did anything for free if he could score a paycheck for it.
>It is true
Except, it's not. Dragonsfoot disagrees with you, /osrg/ disagrees with you, even wikipedia disagrees with you.
>Because they're mostly on discord.
So that's where you guys are holed up. Gross.
>No one would give a shit if it weren't for transparent co-opters like yourself trying to ruin the /osrg/ general
That's some pretty intense irony, considering you're one of those K&KA co-opters.

>>96031879
>Not really tried in court despite all the claims otherwise.
Important point. The OGL wasn't just about being able to use certain icons or copy the SRD. It was also a legal maneuver that allowed WotC to juxtapose content creators copying their work "correctly" against those they wanted to threaten with lawsuits for doing it "incorrectly." They took an ill-defined area of the law and proposed their own "right" way because it provides them clout and leverage when they wanna slap someone down for doing it the "wrong" way. My guess would be that their lawyers came up with it to circumvent anti-slap laws.

>>96027303 (OP)
>tens of thousands of normies
Gods, I can't believe they have such numbers.

>>96031956
>Wut
What it said quite literally.
>I don't think Gygax ever did anything for free
You'd be wrong.
>/osrg/ disagrees with you
Funny because i've been on osrg way longer than you've been doing the rounds banning everyone and we've always driven off faggots, like cavetroon, trying to make it about other games because "what do you mean it has old school in the name! le Runequest is also old school!" ever since day one.
You might think you're slick banning people for posting against you but I can assure you all it means is that people hate your guts, if that wasn't already obvious to you.
>So that's where you guys
I seriously doubt anyone off K&K is a 4chan regular considering they're all boomers. There's /osrg/ discords that also have a bunch of invites including the one K&K runs. You'd know if you were actually a regular of osrg and talked about the things we talk about and not just seething about the general because people told you that your houserules were trash and because you think people who don't like you or your pathetic excuse to use 2E as a shield are all "le white human fighter poltards" as you outed yourself just a day ago.

>>96032186
>your entire post
Man, wut.

Do you think if I had the power to ban people, I'd look at your posts and think "Yeah, this guy really needs to spend more time on this board"? I'd be banning you right now for your own good.

Do yourself (and everyone else) a favor and take a break from here. Like a year long break. Also, take a break from whatever cancerous discords you're a part of. You've got all the symptoms of a person who's been stuck inside some echo chamber and are now trying your hardest to export its faulty and fictitious beliefs.

So, please stop with your various levels of bullshit. Stop arguing with phantoms in your brain, and generally stop being an idiot.

>>96032261
>Do you think if I had the power to ban people,
It hasn't escaped anyone's attention that you're either janny or part of one's clique considering just how many people get banned in osrg for telling you to fuck off with your off-topic bullshit or even just adjacently commenting that 2E's modules are crap. Always a 3-day ban too so you don't get attention from a bunch of people appealing bans all at once.
Same with getting an hours old post where you sperged on calling osrgers poltards deleted when people pointed it out.
Post here: https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96008468/#96009077
You getting called out on it here just before it was deleted: https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96000308/#96014394
You're transparent to anyone whose been on 4chan for any length of time you utter fucking retard.

Lol at seeing an ancient feud from the proto-OSR imported here

>>96032347
Not really, you'll never see anyone but this one faggot going on about it anywhere else since no one cares about the term OSR beyond people trying to ruin a specific 4chan general.

It's so important whether the creators of Castles & Crusades or OSRIC were based or cringe

>>96032322
You're trying to invent a story even when the facts disagree with you. You do this a lot, it seems.

How about this for an alternate explanation?
You're in the wrong, people are tired of your shit, and you keep getting banned by the mods because you keep throwing tantrums and start arguing with your brain phantoms instead of the person whose post you're pointing to whenever you know you're fucked?

Simple, direct, no mental gymnastics, and this avoids all the weird contradictions like you imagining that I'm a mod or ignoring the obvious multiple people who are telling you you're wrong. Not only are you wrong, you're probably well aware of this and trying your hardest to steer the conversation away from the actual topic and instead into your weird game of making a single boogeyman. You spend way more time trying to convince an imaginary audience that everyone agrees with you, rather than actually looking at the facts presented to you and recognizing just how wrong you are.

>>96032322
>>96032378
You two are the same guy in almost every way but hate each other lol

>>96032378
>You're trying to invent a story even when the facts disagree with you. You do this a lot, it seems.
lmao this is rich coming from a faggot who'll go into osrg, post several lies in succession and then ban people who tell him to fuck off and then pretend everyone agrees with him when literally no other post in the entire archived history of osrg does.
>you keep getting banned
There's roughly ten people all who've gotten banned for responding to you, correcting you or for posting the usual osrg opener with the noob guide that makes you seethe.
My only ban incidentally was for responding to you and pointing out that 2E's modules suck major balls which got me a 3-day off-topic vacation.

>>96032387
Main difference is i'm not a political sperg who thinks which elfgame style you play makes you a mean ol' nazi.
Only reason i'm even bothering to correct his bullshit is because he's tried using it to force changes in the osr general and ruined several dozen threads over it, as if anyone there is going to give the slightest shit about trite shit like C&C or 2E when even he doesn't beyond using it as a sledgehammer against 1E.
What's worse is that the douchebag has never even played old editions, in his deleted post he repeats old memes about how deadly it is from other tertiaries that playing more than a single session would disillusion him of.

>Me watching from the sidelines as fishfag gets into another fucking fight in another fucking thread
Damn.
Someone got here before me.

Ah well, good luck to you, fight the good fight and ride him around the rodeo for a bit anon. He deserves it after all.

>>96032387
Neither of those people but
>Brainlet enlightened centrist take
One of these people actively shits up threads because they think its 'taking it to the chuds'
The other one of at least a dozen that is sick of the first persons bullshit.
How are these things the same?

>>96032387
That's what he wants you to believe. Basically, it's this weird sort of defensive hypocrisy, where he acts worse than the boogeyman he's inventing.

He's really counting on people being stupid and taking him on his word, or at least partly on it, and being as hyperbolic as he can be in hopes of relying on people applying some sort of Middle Ground fallacy and believing the truth must exist somewhere between his bullshit and the truth, rather than him being just completely full of shit. The /osrg/ has been suffering for a while now because no matter how many times he gets banned, he just comes right back, and then immediately starts accusing the mods of also being his personal boogeyman.

I think he's actually insane.

>>96032436
You're demonstrably wrong, every time. Multiple people keep explaining to you why you're wrong, and you just start with your boogeyman bullshit to avoid the actual arguments, just like you're doing right now.

>>96032481
Anyone can just open up the archives and see how many people are responding to you and getting their posts deleted.
Or the many times you've seethed about ACKS, how 2E totally belongs (but ignoring when people actually talk about 2E specifics), /todd/ etc. Incidentally your attempts at going "you're insane leave 4chan for your own good" etc etc are pretty laughable and anyone who bothers opening up the osrg thread in one of the archive sites can easily identify you since you always write in the same way and never say anything of value, like a more useless chatgpt.

>>96032515
Anyone CAN open up the archives and see you being in the wrong. You're actually counting on them not to, because you're very correct in assuming no one cares about you and your shit as much as you do. At most, they care just enough to report you for your tantrums.

I don't get it, why all this autism with games emulating ancient D&D when you can find PDFs and play the actual game(s)?

>>96032508
Your samefagging is pretty noticeable btw since you always do it following one of your posts and it's always a short one-liner about the latest post being wrong or responding to yourself being so right like here >>96031333 and the responses are always never more than pithy one-liners of no actual substance.

>>96032530
Of the two of us i'm the only one to actually have linked to archives of deleted posts from the osrg thread.
Says it all really.

>>96032532
Because "content creators" keep trying to eek out a parasitical existence by selling you "new" versions of it. And some anons are dumb enough to bite. Sunk cost fallacy results in the same brand obsessions that has women declaring they need Louis Vuitton purses for a five thousand dollar mark-up.

>>96032532
TLDR the other sperg thinks playing old D&D makes you a political nazi and he tries to sabotage the threads about them and ruin all discussion of it.

>>96032466
I don't care

>>96032436
>>96032481
Play an RPG

>>96027303 (OP)
the "old school"? that never existed as a specific thing. you mean the osr? it started somewhere before 2010 and it still exists, unfortunately

>>96032532
The autism is kind of just about where the "Old School" style cutoff should be, and that's influenced heavily by the OSR community.

In the early 2000's, PDF sharing wasn't as easy and people were much more scared of WotC lawyers. People also didn't have phones or tablets, the internet was much slower, so even using PDFs wasn't as easy, and people also even to this day often just want the printed books (though they didn't have print-on-demand services). More importantly, while there was lots of old content, people still paradoxically wanted NEW content for older games, and a lot of early OSR stuff was made for X system with the intention that it was virtually compatible with an older D&D edition.

The OSR community was always this really loose group of loose groups, with a lot of different points of view and even understandings of what "Old School" actually meant. Most people just sort of accepted that not everyone would see eye-to-eye about what made older games good, and lots of wild interpretations were played and discussed under the OSR umbrella.

Small groups, however, keep trying to fight over trying to impose a single definition of what OSR means onto everyone else, and the K&KA group really tried hard to establish a firm line excluding 2e that was largely rejected by DF, in no small part because 2e AD&D was the 2nd most popular game on those forums. The irony is that these sort of efforts to gatekeep the OSR have been so off-putting that it's contributed to new creators not even wanting to be associated with those letters, so rather than it being a marketing term used to try and add some sort of credibility it's slowly becoming a dark mark that people want to avoid.

Basically, some autists don't understand people have different tastes and try to control something they don't have control over.

>>96032759
>it's contributed to new creators not even wanting to be associated with those letters
lol you mean the people trying to steal it and complaining when people say they're nusr instead because it's not as marketable on dtrpg and to the ose crowd.
Why you even pretend to like 2e to whine is beyond me as someone whose actually played tons of 2e.

>>96032532
The original books aren't very good, but people still want the nerd cred of playing the old way. So they make even worse books.

>>96032540
That link shows your tantrum being deleted. I don't really imagine anyone who actually looks into that thread is going to accept your interpretation of it, in part because it doesn't really make any sense.

You really have a weird thing with trying to tell people what they should think, often with little bits of deception like presenting a link and then acting like everyone will just take your word on what happened.

Even right now, you just did a little "Look, I'm the one who showed evidence. That says it all really," despite the evidence actually completely contradicting you. You're still imagining you're waging your private war against some sort of janitor who disagrees with you on everything you hold dear, when the reality is, when looking at the actual evidence, is just you have a bad habit of making everyone around you despise you to the point where even the moderators go "fuck this little shit just needs to die already."

>>96032810
They're not very good reading for read-onlies who love their lore and theorcrafting.
They play great at the table though.

>>96032815
>That link shows your tantrum being deleted.
That link shows a thread with over 60 deleted posts, most of them on-topic and discussing topics you don't like and several simply correcting your troll-posts whining about the general.
Your posts however remain up despite being off-topic metawhining ad nauseam.

>>96032809
>lol you mean the people trying to steal it and complaining when people say they're nusr
Steal it? It's not really something anyone actually owned, so it's kind of impossible to steal.

There's definitely some people who made lazy products to try and capitalize on the sudden boom in interest in the OSR, but even they had just as much right as anyone else to say their games were inspired by "Old school" play and mechanics. The people who tried to create a wall where the games they liked were OSR and everything else was NuSR/OSR-like etc. have actually shot themselves in the foot, because the amount of people interested in "NuSR" games is well beyond what anyone actually expected. I think it largely comes down to it being extremely easy to pitch "OSR for people who like 5e" or "OSR but updated and streamlined" and just get money dumped in their lap, especially compared to "OSR for people who want to play exactly like an older edition you can get for free and uses a lot of really dated mechanics that weren't fun fifty years ago and still aren't fun now."

I can almost understand your frustration and bitterness.

>>96032532
Because you couldn't c.2003-2009

>>96032893
>Steal it? It's not really something anyone actually owned, so it's kind of impossible to steal.
Of course it is.
Same way most nerd hobbies get stolen in fact.
>There's definitely some people who made lazy products to try and capitalize on the sudden boom in interest in the OSR
Yes, literally all of them.
>but even they had just as much right as anyone else to say their games were inspired by "Old school" play and mechanics.
Nope, doesn't surprise me at all that a cretin like you think like the average parasite though. We certainly have the right to exclude them, and you, for not actually being mechanically or tonally similar to your eternal seethe though.
>games they liked were OSR and everything else was NuSR/OSR-like etc. have actually shot themselves in the foot, because the amount of people interested in "NuSR" games is well beyond what anyone actually expected.
In your retarded mind it's good that a movement is taken away from the people it was made for, even if that thing is so totally divorced from the original as to be nothing alike, because it's more marketable for dumb moneygrubbing cunts like yourself. Just stick to what's mainstream popular because that's ultimately all you're after.
>just get money dumped in their lap
Again just go make crap for 5E if money is your goal.
>uses a lot of really dated mechanics that weren't fun fifty years ago and still aren't fun now.
How would you know?
You've never played any. That's become utterly obvious by your posts when discussing actual systems and you start repeating tertiary views.
>I can almost understand your frustration and bitterness.
Whereas I can't understand why a low IQ jackass like yourself think anyone gives a flying fuck about making a fiver off TRPGs when you could make way more money per hour stocking shelves in a supermarket.
In any case you're obviously yet another dtrpg/itch marketing cunt the second you started talking about how more money = more good.

>>96032966
tl;dr

>>96032819
>t. grognard who thinks he gets more nerd cred by saying this

>>96032991
Nah, it's just that once you stop discussing rpgs and actually start playing them you realize a lot of shit doesn't matter.
Also a lot of things that read great are extremely boring in practice.

>>96032926
I've had the zip with these files more than two decades ago.

>>96032966
holy shit the impotent nerd rage emanating from this post

>>96032996
i agree, that's the exact same thought process i had when i tried old school games. they are much more shitty and boring in practice.

>>96033011
That's virile nerdrage for you. :^)
Impotency is for the guy still seething about his failed breakaway general over a year later because no one here actually cared about nusr games.

>>96033011
It's almost like if ED was a person.

>>96027303 (OP)
https://youtu.be/watch?v=zxR8qT5BoQM
Quality ended when quantity of "elves can be evil too" started.

>>96033056
If he was a Chad he would just post about "NuSR" in the OSR thread and not give a f.

>>96027303 (OP)
I find it ironic how stupid nogames like OP bring up Critical Role and Stranger Things as some "normification" of the hobby when it is pretty clear that was the time he learned that the hobby exists as they seem to think that before Critical Role the hobby was all straight white men or some other retarded caricature.
Real answer: it never ended as no one has power over your games so you could play however you and your group wants.

>>96030228
>No one actually wants to be called the nusr either, as evinced by the fact that calling something that makes the people behind it rage about evil gatekeepers and how everything is totally OSR even non-D&D games.
NSR people are pretty fine with that label, at most you get some complains about very different games being in the same bag which makes it kind of useless if you're looking for specifics.

>>96031530
I'd like to add that I got into the hobby aroud 2003-5 and I met as many people playing 2e as 3e. Obviously sales suggest that there was a big conversion or at least a lot of interest, but the spirit that 3e wasn't the same thing and they were fine staying with an older system was there. They didn't have a name for it, it was just playing the thing they prefered. The OSR didn't pop out of a specific event.

>>96027303 (OP)
when foids and niggers were allowed to play

>>96032893
>especially compared to "OSR for people who want to play exactly like an older edition you can get for free and uses a lot of really dated mechanics that weren't fun fifty years ago and still aren't fun now."
just say "for OSE" and you're fine

>>96035185
So pretty much from the start of the hobby? There was never anything stopping a given group from playing tabletop games. You would know this if you were not dumb nogames fag.

>>96028372
>considering 2e and 1e are extremely similar and the differences largely just alleviate some of the more tedious forms of bookkeeping
good way to reveal yourself as someone who hasn't read or played either lol

>>96033005
Holy based greybeard

>>96035508
He's completely right. I played both in their heyday and the transition from one to the other is utterly seemless except in character options. The actual gameplay aren't just similar--they're outa the box cross-compatible. The only significant differences are in character options. But 2e's additions were all optional additions so even that... eh.

>>96035563
Years ago someone compiled a list of the changes, and the majority of them are pretty minor. Some are incredibly minor, like starting gold for mages being 1d4+1 instead of 2d4 or additional languages for demi-humans no longer being limited by race.

Then again, there's people who kill each other over whether Coke or Pepsi is better.

We all should just play GURPS since it's modular anyway.

>>96035998
I only read the first 5 entries but that list seems to be pretty wrong. I agree that the differences are incredibly minor, outside character creation, though.

>>96036449
Oh, wait, I guess it is optional if I actually read the description. I don't know that I'd ever done that before. Read chart, assume. I never noticed max spells is listed as "optional."

>>96035998
>>96036449
It isn't complete and skips over some of the most egregious changes like official designs no longer assuming gold-for-xp even warning against using it and destroying the dungeoneering rules with absurd changes to movement among other things, nevermind that 95% of stuff published for it is ass.
But it's a moot point regardless.
No one on osrg cares much about discussing 2e, certainly not those of us who've played it, and the single person who brings it up doesn't either play or want to discuss it. He explicitly goes on about the general's definition of the OSR and what's on-topic to shit up threads not because he actually wants to talk about 2e.
The whole impetus of his ongoing tardrage since July of last year is because he kept giving people terrible houserules advice and got assmad when people said story xp was shit in practice.

>>96027303 (OP)
Probably early 90s, when it was clear that videogames could handle the procedural crawling autismo better than analog games, so ttrpgs had to offer something else.