Thread 96084074

Magic-users and clerics are the same. Magic and miracles are the same.

Wizards and mad scientists are the same. Wizardry and mad science are the same.

Mages and machinists are the same. Magic and machines are the same.

Mages and psions are the same. Magic and psionics are the same.

Fantasy physics and fantastical science are the same. Fantasy and science-fiction are the same.

>magic isn’t magic if it lacks wonder
>magic isn’t magic if it lacks mystery
>magic isn’t magic if it’s just science
>magic isn’t magic if everyone gets it

>magic is only magic if a god did it
>magic is only magic if a god didn’t do it
>magic is only magic if I did it externally
>magic is only magic if I did it internally

Do humans even know what magic is anymore?

>>96084083
>magic is only magic if I did it externally
>magic is only magic if I did it internally
Chi vs magic autism right here
(Chi WAS the mana for eastern mages)

inb4 the “reee wonderfag reee” fag

Except all of that sounds boring. I'll take my flying chi warriors alongside my necromancers, mad scientists and mutated super soldiers, and you can suck a big fat rubber strap-on if you want me to make them the same bland boring slop.

YOU are stupid.

>>96084074 (OP)
>retarded meaningless babble
>ai image
>reddit spacing
the holy trifecta of modern /tg/

Rituals that offer power, be it science or religion or pressing buttons on a strange machine a la machine priests from 40k.

Yes, you are stupid OP. Go eat dicks somewhere else.

>>96084355
Is he stupid for pointing out something so obvious, or is he stupid for making a useless thread?

>>96084365
Stupid for thinking anyone wants to read his worthless opinions, yes

>>96084365
noone wants to have this same retarded semantic argument for a fourth time this week. try harder

Hmmm...

>>96084074 (OP)
You and a retarded sub-human shit for brains unworthy of life are the same.

>>96084074 (OP)
Back into your slop thread, ai faggot.

>>96084074 (OP)
This is the gayest post on the board, and there are currently at least two discord raids happening right now.

Posting this thread again is stupid.
Thinking anyone is going to take it seriously any more is stupid.

>>96084083
The problem is all those statements are valid in systems made for them which makes magic an umbrella term for things too different from each other

>>96084904
stop trying to make this thread happen again, we're not buying it

>>96084074 (OP)
Stop posting slop outside of your containment thread.

>>96084074 (OP)
>slopspamming faggot
>retarded opinion
Name a more iconic duo.

>>96084074 (OP)
How do you write game rules for this?

>>96084083
>Do humans even know
Humans with functioning brains do, but it'd be a waste of time to try and explain it to one such as you.

>this thread again
Kill yourself.

>>96084074 (OP)
kys

>>96085172
Or else what?

>>96086313
I’ll buy 4chan from Hiroyuki and rule it with an iron fist. AI sloppers will be banned on sight.

>>96086313
Or else we will be very, very angry with you, and we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are.

>>96086313
Or we keep calling you names

>>96084494
Orbface.

>>96084074 (OP)
Yeah but... Traditional games?

>>96084074 (OP)
Classes are stupid.
Genres are stupid.
Narratives are stupid.
Concepts are stupid.
Words are stupid.
People are stupid.
The world is stupid.
The galaxy is stupid.
Matter is stupid.
Energy is stupid.
Entropy is stupid.
Spacetime is stupid.
Reality is stupid.
But not me I'm smart. I'm normal.

>>96084074 (OP)
>everything is the same game effects just described differently
Careful, you're getting a bit too based and generic-system pilled for this board.

Know what’s also stupid? Magic systems. Magic systems are stupid. SOOO stupid. Magic isn’t a good label AT ALL since it’s just a beer-ish game of punking.

> Label [insert weird energy capable of doing anything here] Magic™
> Some [insert weird energy capable of doing anything, and more, here] shows up suddenly

So like, do we not call the clearly more magical thing magic? Clearly the Magic™ title belongs to the more magical thing…

But of course faggots WANT their special thing to be called Magic™, or MagicK, or whatever, like how Catholics insisted their magic be named miracles, not magic.

All you need for magic is “wow so cool”, anyway. Imagine seeing a snail in a world without snails.

>>96084074 (OP)
None of that is true.
You're a retard.

96096217
I use the word magic cause it doesn't confuse my ESL friends who are from around the globe, is one succinct word, and cause I can. Seethe about it, nerd.

>>96096241
“I ain’t gotta explain shit” falls in line with “wow so cool”, or “I don’t know!”, though. Don’t know why you’re not giving me my (You).

96096465
Cause in my setting, "I ain't explaining dick" is a valid position to take for beginner mages, and because I don't want to

>>96084074 (OP)
>guys guys, what if... everything is the same if interpreted that way?
happy 12th birthday OP

>>96084083
FPBP

>>96099669
Stop replying to yourself

>>96086313
We custard throw pies at you.

>>96096217
/thread

>>96103695
Replying to yourself is sad

>>96100343
>>96103712
You’re insane.

>>96084074 (OP)
Actual peasant take.

NPCs don't get to be in charge of creativity anymore.

>>96084083
It’s almost like… magic is… whatever the FUCK… …zzz… …

>>96084074 (OP)
>Genres are stupid
I can't tell if this is some sort of highly autistic reaction to the somtimes unclear boundaries of genre or if one very angry retard has started a meme.
Genre categorization is useful. As long as a genre allows useful differentiation, its good to have it around. Raging against genre delineation is just a retarded take that muddies everything into brown slurry and makes it impossible to find specific niches within it. The only argument I can even find coherent in here is that some authors treat genre as high walls, never to be crossed or mixed and are therefore limited in their writing because of it.

Anyway OP, stop sucking cocks and take your autism meds.

>everything should be a puddle of gray slop
>everyone should have to play the way I want them to
>everyone should be nogames like me
>no I won't justify any of these positions.
Great thread OP

>>96105628
>everything connects, everything meets in the end
>this means everything is grey and boring
Found the atheist
You can’t confront a force of holistic beauty, It overwhelms you and causes your amygdala to freak out

>>96105729
>Grey slop is beauty
Found the atheist
You can’t confront the panoply of wonder that is reality, It overwhelms you and causes your amygdala to freak out
You didn't deny being nogames I notice

>>96105749
D’aw. I broke your brain. I see the wonder everywhere, anon. I’m not an atheist or a theist, you silly willy.

Listen. If you don’t see nature or science as something divine or magical or wondrous or mysterious, then you don’t actually love or appreciate nature or science, do you?

>>96105749
You’re just agreeing with him without realizing it. Once again.

>>96105565
>I can't tell if this is some sort of highly autistic reaction to the somtimes unclear boundaries of genre or if one very angry retard has started a meme.
I think it's basically the cancer metastasizing from several different autistic takes on various tangentially related /tg/ topics that are trying to evolve into the ultimate anal fistula

>>96105628
Everything being physics isn’t grey slop. You may as well argue existence as it is, is grey slop.
>>96105749
Why did you copy what he said.

>>96105805
People who argue for the sake of arguing will repeat your argument back to you, because they don’t *want* to agree. They want to argue.

>>96105778
>I’m not an atheist or a theist, you silly willy.
Don’t you have to be one or the other?

>>96105837
No.

What is a god is just as much a matter of subjective perception as magic is.

The same way religion is a proxy, or a stand-in, for understanding. It can’t be helped. The ancients didn’t know what the stars were, so they interpreted them as the very gods. That’s no different from magic as a stage. A curtain. A veil. The universe is both stage and magician.

Those who want magic to be magic no matter the perspective are a religious sort of brain. “No, God is God!”. Yeah, well, even had that God existed, to the physicist He is still just a sufficiently advanced/godlike alien being, likely higher dimensional. Again, to the physicist. God wouldn’t see Himself the same way his followers do, either. He wouldn’t be accurately portrayed in the Bible. It’s a story. Faith doesn’t require truth, and never has. It’s not empirical.

Listen…

Atheists don’t like to acknowledge that a sufficiently godlike alien being can totally be worshiped as a god or something.

Theists don’t like acknowledging that their god is just a big alien and believing in gods is a variant of believing in aliens.

The theist, faith oriented outlook is still the one that doesn’t rely on hard truth—it’s not empirically scientific. It’s using words to describe, not to define. Magic is just that. The Christian sees God as “He”, “Jehovah”, “Yahweh”, “the All”, etc, and some Christian physicists interpret Him to be the living Whole of reality, or nature. God to the plain physicist is “a higher dimensional being of some kind”.

It all connects. These are just different ways of looking at the same thing. One is just empirical in its observations. The other is more artistic. Ignorance is a form of art.

>>96105879
No. You HAVE to pick a side.

>>96105905
Well I AM stealing your gif.

>>96105905
>Listen…

>Atheists don’t like to acknowledge that a sufficiently godlike alien being can totally be worshiped as a god or something.

>Theists don’t like acknowledging that their god is just a big alien and believing in gods is a variant of believing in aliens.

>>96105920
Ain't mine, so go right on ahead

>>96105933
>Listen...
Nope

>>96105994
>Nope
Darn.

>>96084074 (OP)
Magic, in my game, is whatever the fuck I want

>>96107776
No, magic isn’t whatever the fuck you want, it’s whatever the fuck I want!

>>96107818
Wrong, magic is whatever I want to fuck!

>>96084074 (OP)
ewwwwww...sloppa...

Bump

There should have only ever been one magic class, with varying flavours.

>>96112025
>>96117701
>16 hours between replies
>Reply adds nothing to discussion
Fuck off bumpfag

>>96084074 (OP)
>Magic-users and clerics are the same. Magic and miracles are the same.
Make them mechanically distinct.

>Wizards and mad scientists are the same. Wizardry and mad science are the same.
Make them mechanically distinct.

>Mages and machinists are the same. Magic and machines are the same.
Make them mechanically distinct.

>Mages and psions are the same. Magic and psionics are the same.
Make them mechanically distinct.

>Fantasy physics and fantastical science are the same. Fantasy and science-fiction are the same.
Make them mechanically distinct.

There, how about we make this shithole thread somewhat useful and bring up systems where all these things are different. I'll start with Anima: Beyond Fantasy.

>>96117837
What the fuck is your problem?

>>96084074 (OP)
>10 demonstrably false statements
>AI picrel
>posted four days ago but still being bumped
Why is /tg/ incapable of ignoring bait?

>>96120561
It is when OP is blatant enough as with this thread. There were another two more veiled threads and one hijacked that went to bump limit in all of two days I got into in the past week.

>>96120561
It helps when OP blatantly necros his thread after nearly a full day without responses
>>96112025
>>96117701

>>96084074 (OP)
what gaem

>>96120742
Bump.

What is ‘bump’ and why does it piss people off

>>96084074 (OP)
>I know! I'll make everything maximally generic!
>Removing all distinctions and specifics from my setting is SURE to make the game better!
I don't think there's a word for how retarded you are, leftoid.

>>96084074 (OP)
Even scientists and scientists aren't the same you pompous cunt. Classes allow players to build into playable archetypes balanced towards the available material without having to master the entire game in order not to suck. A genre is an agreed upon culture that limits the scope of what's expected in a game to achieve cohesion. You can whine your tired arguments about those limitations being artificial, but your post being very much a generic product of its time assists the notion that people will fall into these limitations, more often than not, and act like their culture expects them to. You have a class, cunt, in a genre, reddit, and that's reflected in your post.

>>96084494
It's installed right in front of his face for maximally efficient hands-free all-day pondering.

>>96084074 (OP)
>What is Essence
Might I interest you in a cup of Exalted, good sir?

Theoretically, how would a free-form system even feel to play, if Magic wasn't anything special, and everyone could have it? Everyone would almost 100% have the equivalent of Misty Step, because mobility is king, but would Martials go out of their way to try and use Magic? Would everyone just become a variant of a BattleMage?

>>96129125
It depends strongly on the details of the opportunity costs, assuming that by "free-form" you just mean "no class-locking", as if getting Misty Step "on pace" takes enough out of how you intend to contribute with mobility then it may well still not appear. It's hard to see an argument for not picking up the low-hanging fruit eventually, but if the opportunity costs at all reflect the classes then that'll be some time in, probably analogous to the 3.X/PF1e version of the Paladin and Ranger.

Some of the particulars for D&D's context could be gleaned from discourse on Eclipse: the Codex Persona, a d20 sourcebook breaking down the 3e and 3.5 SRD material into a point-buy framework. Don't feel guilty snagging a PDF online, it's got a shareware version that I am annoyed exceeds the filesize limit of 4chan due to the pile of subsystems the writers felt like packing in.

>>96084074 (OP)
>magic users and clerics are the same
magic users is a label that could apply to every casting class. Clerics are not "the same" as every caster for being in the same category
>magic and miracles are the same
swirling, uncreated energies that can be harnessed to make the impossible possible without being connected to a deity and the manifest will of deities are different things
>wizards and mad scientists are the same
wizards use magic, mad scientists use science
>wizardry and mad science are the same
swirling, uncreated energies that can be harnessed to make the impossible possible and human beings achieving the limits of what is possible are different things
>mages and machinists are the same
magic is magic and machines are machines
>magic and machines are the same
you are an obtuse quasi-literate faggot with no friends
>mages and psions are the same
they're not
>magic and psionics are the same
swirling, uncreated energies that can be harnessed to make the impossible possible and latent psychic energy are not the same
>fantasy physics
not a thing, physics is science/realism and fantasy is magical
>fantasy and science fiction
are two completely different genres, you cock-gargling pseudointellectual time wasting split-arsed nigger. Never make this thread again.

Lol

>>96084074 (OP)
no u

>>96132282
>wizards use magic, mad scientists use science
Congratulations. You’re retarded.

>>96143273
That more people come out to disagree with the fixing of definitions for your semantic argument shows that it is not an accurate description of common use, and thus not a valid definition.

>>96145257
Congratulations. You’re retarded.

>>96145317
Yes, anon, we know you are, you don't have to repeat yourself

>>96145257
Just ignore him, he's a literal autist that can't fathom what magic is. I'm surprised this thread has even lasted this long, most have already clocked he's a waste of time and don't reply to him any more.

>>96147317
Tell us. What is magic? Go on. Tell us.

They’re stupid but they serve a superficial niche. It’s even fun when opposing or just contrasting paradigms confront. The irony of the situation could be intentional.

>>96084074 (OP)
>Bot-posting the same gay thread and using an AI generated image to boot
Get a life nerd.

>>96105905
>>96105994
cute frogs

>>96151340
This. Why does it matter if miracles are magic by any other name? It’s still flavor. Sometimes the capital-wizard won’t see themselves as a capital-w wizard, being so alien or transcendent.

>>96084074 (OP)
lol

>>96138004
>>96158885
What's so funny?

>>96084083
fpbp

>>96084074 (OP)
i like ai art

>>96084074 (OP)
sir i made this AI slop, why are you using it to make a thread? this is theft. this is an outrage

Mod thread.

>>96084083
Amazing post.

>>96084083
Shitpost

Mages are like engineers. This is true.

Mages are like cooks. This is true.

>>96084494
lol

How is science not bloody magic?

All scientists are sorcerers to some shade. That's why they seek theories of everything to unify different layers of reality. It's as if scientists believe as-above-so-below and as-within-so-without. Scientists believe in summoning entities that transcend the body like AI and wish to become transhuman themselves. Don't forget scientists' quest for immortality either…and think about their obsession with seeking patterns, their inclination to turn patterns into geometrical representations, and their wish for theory to be beautiful! Scientists might as well wear robes and dissect bodies on altars- no, wait, they're already doing that… Christ, they might as well sacrifice materials in rituals to gain a material back with transcended properties. Oh wait…

>>96187452
>How is science not bloody magic?
>ChatGPT said:

>That’s a cool question! It’s easy to blur the lines between science and magic when you think about how advanced some scientific concepts and technologies are. After all, things like smartphones, space travel, or even medical breakthroughs can seem straight-up magical if you don’t know the science behind them. But the big difference is that science is based on understanding and evidence—it’s repeatable, measurable, and testable.

>Magic, on the other hand, often operates outside of these boundaries. It's typically presented as mysterious and unexplainable, and it's driven by belief, not empirical data. So, while magic relies on wonder and mystery, science is about understanding the world by building knowledge from observation and experimentation.

>For example, take the idea of teleportation. In a sci-fi setting, it’s “magic” because it's something that just happens without much explanation. But in quantum physics, teleportation (specifically quantum entanglement) is an actual concept that's been demonstrated in labs—though it’s not the "beam me up, Scotty" version you’d hope for!

>It's typically presented as mysterious and unexplainable
Kys wonderbot

How is cooking not bloody magic?

All chefs are sorcerers to some shade. That's why they seek recipes for everything to unify different layers of taste. It's as if chefs believe as-sauce-so-seasoning and as-filling-so-topping. Chefs believe in heating surfaces that transcend the body like stoves and wish to become hot stuff themselves. Don't forget chefs' quest for deliciousness either…and think about their obsession with seeking patterns, their inclination to turn patterns into gastronomical representations, and their wish for dining to be fine! Chefs might as well wear tall hats and dissect animal bodies on cutting boards- no, wait, they're already doing that… Christ, they might as well sacrifice materials in rituals to serve a three-course meal with nourishing properties. Oh wait…

>>96187777
Kek and checked

>>96187777
I like the cooking metaphor, honestly. Academy mages are like grumpy chefs walking on egg shells in the kitchen, while hedge mages are like that loving grandma making lasagna. Sometimes a hedge mage can cook up something that even an academy mage would be amazed by (all those cooking shows about travelling to weird ass locations to try weird ass food), like Greek islanders roasting lamb in a way a four-star kitchen just doesn’t.

>>96084494
Within that helmet is a man screaming.

>>96187777
Cooking is a sub-category of alchemy.

>>96084074 (OP)
I don't understand the complaint. Is the problem that all these classes are too mechanically similar, or that their theme is too similar?

>>96193790
>Is the problem that all these classes are too mechanically similar, or that their theme is too similar?
The problem is that people deny the ironies. "It's alien technology, I ain't gotta explain shit" is indistinguishable from "It's fucking magic, I ain't gotta explain shit".

>>96193790
It's just some sperg complaining about...honestly, I don't know, that people aren't being confusing about the concept of the supernatural in general? Cause they're clearly a nogaems, so I don't understand what their problem with this shit is.

>>96197088
>Cause they're clearly a nogaems
Why do you always resort to this low hanging fruit. You're just as bad if not worse. You actively stifle conversation.

>>96197094
>Yer just as bad because…
>…
>Yer just as bad!

For the record, first time in this thread, it’s pretty obvious he doesn’t play tabletop games cause otherwise he’d understand people don’t do the “magic and science are the same” shit cause they want different fantasies. Someone wanting to pretend they’re an alchemist trying to brew a homunculus in a flask is not the same as someone pretending they’re a modern day chemist, and that’s fine.

>>96197121
Cool. You’re a part of the problem.

>people don’t do the “magic and science are the same” shit
Depends on the setting. Depends on how logical the players are, and how they put it (logic) into play, or roleplay.

You only care about gameplay and not roleplay. You don’t care for actual story talk. You’re just a beep boop gamer. This board is as much for setting inspiration as it is for mechanical discussion.

>Someone wanting to pretend they’re an alchemist trying to brew a homunculus in a flask is not the same as someone pretending they’re a modern day chemist, and that’s fine.
Alchemy is, technically, archaic chemistry laced with spirituality that got shaved off over time. A chemist is in his right to see his field as a magical one, considering it’s so arcanely saturated in its story/history.

>>96197321
>You only care about gameplay and not roleplay. You don’t care for actual story talk. You’re just a beep boop gamer. This board is as much for setting inspiration as it is for mechanical discussion.
Cool, name five settings where the distinction matters and I'll happily debate them.

Until then, this is just a massive waste of time and energy.

>>96197339
>Cool, name five settings where the distinction matters
Dungeons & Dragons started this whole autistic talk. “Gandalf is a cleric you idiot”.

>>96197344
Only one setting, and Gandalf isn't in Dungeons and Dragons. 0 out of 10 post.

>>96197350
Stop being disingenuous. This has been a problem for decades. I remember even reading about it in a magazine once. The d&d type magazines. “Moses was clearly a cleric, and Merlin was clearly just some sorcerer!”. No bitch. They’re wizards. The word wizard has been used to describe both in history at one point or another. It’s pure fucking autism arguing about words that amount to soft descriptions over hard definitions. A magician is a magic-user is a mage is a wizard is a witch is a warlock is a sorcerer, etc. Fuck.

Dee en Dee is damaging to literacy, and it causes brain rot like the following:

—"Okay guys, we're here at the villain’s evil lair filled with evil spooky stuff."
—“What foul sorcery is this?”
—“Um, ackchyually, the enemy identifies as a Wizard, so it would be ‘What WIZARDRY is this’, you bigot. Respect their profession.”
—“What the fuck. It’s evil and heretical and demonic and I don’t like it. Therefore witchcraft.”
—“Ackchyually, a Witch is a female Warlock who makes Pacts with-“
—“Please shut the fuck up…”

Magic is soft to begin with. It’s not hard. It is why it’s magic (“magic”) to begin with.

>>96197392
Maybe the problem is that you only play D&D and don't play anything else to expand your horizons? Just a thought?

>>96187452
The interaction between science and magic is just a way of being playful in fiction. There's no depth to it. Magic isn't real, so fantasy uses it to describe power that isn't real. Science can do things that appear magical if you don't understand it or aren't at least used to it. So again fiction can and has played with that concept a million times.

Magic is just a filler word with cultural baggage. It doesn't describe anything real or consistant so the word can be thrown around and given whatever meaning best fits the setting. In reality magic can't be real because anything that becomes understood and studied and normalized is just science.

Go read Elder Race by Adrian Tchaikovsky. It's not a long novel, but it's a fun exploration of the whole "science is just magic" thing.

>>96197434
>Magic isn't real
About as useful as saying cold, or dark, or holes, aren’t real. Absences are real. Magic is an absence of assessment. The black box. A black box that’s white inside.

Magic isn’t meant to exist, to exist. It’s an outlook. A way of looking at the world—or something, anything, within it. Even math was seen as magic for millennia. If math was seen as magic, then why not literally anything else?

Magic does exist in the form of chemistry in the brain, though. The chemistry in the brain that leads up to “wow, it’s like magic!”. Authors like Tolkien called it enchantment, and there’s definitely some major disenchantment narrative going on within hard academia. That feeling of magic, of wonder, of confronting mystery, etc, is still present today but it takes a different shape and uses different words. When a biologist discovers a new form of unseen deep sea life? That’s magic.

Even science is taking on religious airs, today. Not so different from cults in areas. Dissenters are branded the equivalent of witches.

>>96197487
I'm very curious which game you're in where this outlook on magic is integral to the experience, anon, because I would like to see it for myself.

>>96197434
>Science can do things that appear magical if you don't understand it or aren't at least used to it.
If something happens even in fiction there will be science, physics, to it, even if you can’t poke at it or look at it. A thing being magic requires a background that’s ineffable, sure—but it’s nonetheless still a present force, with something to it. There is always going to be a background to the foreground. This is just how causality, the thing responsible for storytelling, works.

>>96197487
Amazing you replied without reading a goddamn thing. It's like you skimmed my post for a few words and replied to them.

You're asking me questions answered in the post you're replying to. You absolute nutterbutter.

>>96197511
>If something happens even in fiction there will be science, physics, to it, even if you can’t poke at it or look at it
Except when the writer dictates otherwise, right?

>>96197518
I’m just pointing out that magic can’t be real even in fiction, the same way cold or dark or holes aren’t real, even in fiction.

If some ‘shadow mage’ makes a tendril of shadows that can slice+dice apart foes, it clearly isn’t actually shadows, but a thing making it tangible—which even adds this sense of unknown dread. “What’s really in there?”.

In fantasy you’re allowed to have crap like fire and ice magic, but don’t be upset if someone points out it’s all just heat and the lack of. Enforced ignorance is even a fun thing. Ignorance is art. Maybe aliens don’t want you to know this.

>>96197511
You haven't read much hardcore fantasy. Where narrative laws are at work, or old school ideas of universal laws are at play. God even The Last Unicorn (the book) would leave you confused and angry. The laws of physics depends on your setting.

Science is a process. Saying there's science when no one knows the scientific process in the setting, is retarded. Physics just happening is not science happening because science is the study.

A thing being magic requires nothing. It's a hollow word that means what we want, but usually we assume it refers to some kind of unknown force or power. "Ineffable" is rarely necessary or required. You learned that word by watching the BBC tv adaptation of a book you didn't read. You're not using it correctly.

Storytelling doesn't require causality. It just finds it useful.

>>96197554
>Except when the writer dictates otherwise, right?
Literally impossible since there are limits even to fiction. Fiction is not omnipotent. You can’t make a fiction without math and causality, for instance. It cannot be done. Saying “and so, causality never existed” is basically saying your story isn’t a story at all. Nothing is happening.

>>96197562
>Where narrative laws are at work, or old school ideas of universal laws are at play
Those are still laws. Physics. I don’t care how weird it is or looks or acts.
>Science is a process
Yes. Causality is a process. Good job.

>Saying there's science when no one knows the scientific process in the setting, is retarded
Cope, then. There’s science lying in wait for all time. Einstein called it the ‘music of the spheres’, or a cosmic symphony that plays with or without you listening in on it.

Saying something doesn’t have science to it, is basically claiming it doesn’t exist. That’s counterproductive even in fictional environments, where fictional persons in their own reality are assumed to have an outlook or perception.

>>96197568
That's a long roundabout way to say "no", in which case, I have no idea how to react to some dumbass saying he knows better than the creator of their own setting on the subject of "magic"

>>96197562
> "Ineffable" is rarely necessary or required. You learned that word by watching the BBC tv adaptation of a book you didn't read. You're not using it correctly.
It’s actually frequently used in matters or talk of mysticism. Mysticism IS one’s own experience with the ineffable. Mysticism, at its core, grapples with the ineffable, a concept that signifies experiences, particularly those of a spiritual or transcendent nature, that are difficult or impossible to express or describe in words. This ineffability is a central tenet of mystical traditions across various religions and philosophies, suggesting that certain profound encounters with reality lie beyond the grasp of language.

All religion has mystery or mysticism to it, and magic is associated with mystery. All religion is a form of magic.

>>96197568
>You can’t make a fiction without math and causality
Ah, the hyper autistic math nerd who gets confused and upset by the illogical and overly whimsical. Insisting that because he goes to math and logic like a teddy bear for comfort, that everything else must require the same.

Fiction requires causality as much as a frat party requires hot girls. Even without them they'll have fun making holes in the drywall and pissing on the carpet.

>>96197586
>I have no idea how to react to some dumbass saying he knows better than the creator of their own setting on the subject of "magic"

Authors are freely capable of writing ignorance into their own works. That you don’t know this spells volumes about your inability to escape escapism. “It can be anything!”. Sure thing, whatever you say.

>>96197600
>Fiction requires causality as much as a frat party requires hot girls.
You don’t know what time/causality is, then. Things happening at all, is science, causality, evolution, etc. Even existence evolves. Even a nothing is a one. Fuck.

You dumbasses really are threatened by higher logic / critical thinking, it’s funny.

>>96197605
I mean, if I'm a creator of a work of fiction, then yes. It literally is whatever I say. When has that not been the case?

>>96197597
All you can manage is that "it's frequently used in this context" but you still used it incorrectly, and still insisted it's a requirement for magic, which is isn't. Magic and the supernatural are good friends and neighbors but they don't live together.

>>96105879
>What is a god is just as much a matter of subjective perception as magic is.

So you're rejecting the concept of an objectively divine God existing. You're an atheist.

>>96132282
>swirling, uncreated energies that can be harnessed to make the impossible possible

Anon if something "impossible" is made possible, it was never impossible to begin with, it just had the appearance of being impossible.

>>96197094
This is traditional games anon, playing games is the most important aspect of the board.

>>96197582
>Those are still laws. Physics.
In my setting there aren't. The laws of the universe are dictated by the daydreams of a giant crab and could change at any moment or cease to exist. Checkmate atheist redditor.

>cope then
He says unable to cope with fiction not requiring universal laws.

>science is laying in wait
>causality is a process
You just say things huh. Science is a thing people do. Science doesn't exist on its own. The laws of physics are just how things are, science is a method of understanding them. But without people, without observers DOING science, science does not exist. Ok? I know this is straining for you. It's more abstract than you're used to but just hold on we'll help you through this crisis.

>>96197620
If as a creator of fiction and anything you right into your fiction is automatically true, does that mean if you write "everything in this book is real" that it becomes real?

>>96197669
>The laws of the universe are dictated by the daydreams of a giant crab and could change at any moment or cease to exist. Checkmate atheist redditor.

How do you know that isn't how our laws of physics work rn?

>>96197677
>he doesn't know how books work and thinks they can dictate reality
It's like you're trying to work on new ways to look like a sperg

>>96197701
So you agree that everything a writer writes in their fiction isn't necessarily true or correct simply because they're the writer? Such as logicial contradictions like claiming fiction is nonfiction?

>>96197612
>guy is threatened by the very concept of abstractions and fiction not obeying universal laws
>projects that others are threatened by math
we're in a tabletop games board and you can't rulelawyer a homebrewed game. The rules of fiction are what you want. Because it's fiction. This includes causality and time. I can break those rules in fiction because I understand them not because I'm ignorant of them.

This is your weakness, don't assume others share it.

>>96197693
Who cares? I'm talking about my own fictional world that I made for the purposes of tabletop games and general entertainment. What does that have to do with the real world?

>>96197724
No, retard. I'm saying every work of fiction is built on the inherent concept that for the duration of the story you are hearing you can acknowledge you are inherently being lied to, but that you will accept the lies being told to you as the truth. That's what stories and games are about. That's why people can believe magic to be fake and non-existent in real life but take it to be a real thing inherently disassociated with our understanding of the real world. Did you sperg out when the opening of Persona 5 asked if you accepted it was just a game, and then got booted to the title screen when you tried to answer no? Do you get upset when South Park displays a warning that the majority of people being made fun of on the show aren't the actual people?

You must, considering you can't seem to accept that creators can flat-out say what is and isn't magic in the context of the story they're weaving and leave no room to confuse people with bullshit about physics or religion or whatever.

>>96197784
I don’t know why this retard is still arguing about it. If you have a set of closed, immutable physics, and then a system of ‘magic’ that somehow, inexplicably defies said physics and acts in a way not at all in accordance with them, then its magic. Trying to argue otherwise is just showing people they cannot separate fiction and reality.

I already made a jab that this autist would have a panic attack reading The Last Unicorn but it's starting to look like he really would.

>>96197816
Not really true. It's just a matter of perspective and whatever the author of the setting wants to define things as. Magic can and often is used in that way, but it's not only used in that way. Because it's not real it's used in whatever way people want with malleable common definitions but no absolute ones.

This entire stupid argument you guys are making just boils down to whether you insist on an absolute definition of words or understand they're more of a big multitool that can be used for a number of common tasks but also more creatively, is heavy enough to bash over someone's head. Because even the intended functions are up to the user.

>>96197870
>This entire stupid argument you guys are making
My only argument is that this guy, aka you, is an autist who clearly doesn't play games if he spends this much time trying to examine particular concepts down to their non-existent atoms than either playing games or demonstrating how examinations of this nature help in certain settings.

Cause you only named "Dungeons and Dragons" as a setting, which I took pity on and gave solely because most nogaems don't realize Dungeons and Dragons is the ruleset the game is framed around and not like the actual setting of the book that the fluff uses to spice the experience up. One single game.

>>96197904
Not that guy. I specifically said I was not either of your so neither of you would think I'm the other one. Nothing you said addresses anything I said in my post which you replied to just not.

Fucking retard.

>>96197925
Think one of your sentences cut off there, buddy

>>96197993
no just a letter. The last word was now, not 'not'. See? Actually reading before replying is useful.

>>96197669
>In my setting there aren't.
Okay so you aren’t actually intelligent enough to continue this conversation.

>>96084074 (OP)
(You) are stupid.

>>96198119
This from the guy who's too dumb to understand the concept of fiction.

>>96197816
>If you have a set of closed, immutable physics, and then a system of ‘magic’ that somehow, inexplicably defies said physics and acts in a way not at all in accordance with them, then its magic.
Sure, but “magic” here, to the physicist, is just a placeholder name for sufficiently exotic, or alien physics, and the laws of nature aren’t complete. You can’t defy nature, you can only defy our observed laws of nature. That’s the nuance you’re missing. If anything happens, even “magic”, then it’s a part of nature, reality, existence, etc.

This isn’t really hard to grasp, it just frustrates people who deeply want magic to be something distinct and special and separate from reality. But this is impossible.

>>96198129
Are fictions real within themselves, anon? Are there knights slaying trolls and ogres and such?

>>96198079
>Actually reading before replying is useful.
Words you should probably live by yourself, OP

>>96197816
Gravity is borderline magic, you say? It genuinely is.

>>96197904
You keep thinking all anons are the same anon. Most people aren’t dumb enough to think crap like miracles aren magic by any other name.
>>96198145
That’s not OP.

>>96198145
>there is only one guy on the internet
I was making fun of OP in this thread before you got here buddy. I replied with a real actual response to something you said and you ignored it and pretended it was some earlier post OP made.

And now you're trying too hard to cope with that.

>>96198163
When did you realize OP is actually less retarded and less schizophrenic than this autist?

>>96198129
Well you see anon to him fiction is when stories obey the laws of physics and causality and a story can never ever ever be surreal or abstract or unconventional. Real fiction would never be fake like that. There's rules anone. Stories have to fit my narrow experiences with them. Art is scary and makes me uncomfortable so I have to project reddit atheism onto it!

“Magic can be anything”
“No it’s whatever I want it to be”
“Yes…?”

Reminder that this is what this argument stems from. Telling a dork that magic is a viewpoint is attacking them since it’s like they got mad they didn’t realize this a lot sooner, even though “it depends on the author” has been around for thousands of years.

>>96198191
All fiction stems from observations of reality. There would be no “the stars are gods” if the stars weren’t there. Ignorance is an art form, but all art is built from what is already existent.

>>96198162
Very likely not, but I wanted to see if he gets angry about it

>>96198163
Guess I have my answer, lol

>>96084074 (OP)
>Fantasy physics and fantastical science are the same. Fantasy and science-fiction are the same.
I can't tell if this is just one obsessive autist, or if it's a generational thing. Maybe people in their twenties read so rarely, now, that they don't comprehend the difference and can only think terms of movies and tv?

They're only even related in that both are types of popular fiction.

>>96198225
Authors like George R R Martin and J R R Tolkien see magic and machines as the same damn thing.

>>96198178
Well the clear difference is OP is the inverse of Lovecraft. He was gifted in math and science but it's the world of the abstract that terrifies him, art class gave him a mental breakdown.

Meanwhile the other guy is very specifically wanting to argue about an idea of his, that no one is really even contradicting him on, but he's so insistent on it that he keeps replying to people to talk about it regardless of what they're even talking about. He thinks he's doing this to put OP in his place, but really it's just his own obsession.

So you know, we have a all flavors of autism in this ice cream shop.

>>96198228
What an absurd and ludicrous thing to say.

>>96198232
>He was gifted in math and science but it's the world of the abstract that terrifies him, art class gave him a mental breakdown.

It’s abstract to realize that even fiction has limits, thobeit. Refusing to understand that you can’t make a fiction without math or causality/physics is kind of a bad look for anyone. It implies they haven’t matured enough. They’re stuck in escapist mindsets. Religious addled folk have replaced real life with fiction, taking it as omnipotent, replacing God.

>>96198201
>All fiction stems from observations of reality
cute when debunking religious types, hilarious to say about modern day fiction. As if the abstractions of the modernist art movement didn't evolve from impressionism to the point of losing meaning and being purely about form.

The evolution of fiction does not impose laws on it. The evolution of fiction is often built from breaking the rules people try to put on it. You are out of your depth.

>>96198237
George and Tolkien are ludicrous writers, you say? Maybe, maybe…

>>96198262
So you think Tolkien and Martin thought that, when they put gasoline in a car, they believed that they were casting magical spells?

You've gotta put at least a little effort into your bait, anon.

>>96198251
You literally don't know what abstraction means... jesus christ. This is the real deal autism.
>everyone telling me I'm wrong hasn't matured enough
the illogical nature of children's books would make you irrationally upset. Actual surrealism is likely to kill you.

>>96198228
Neither of those authors do. People could write entire thesis papers on exactly how wrong what you just said is about either one of these authors. You haven't even read their books. Do you read anything that isn't assigned to you in your AP math prep courses?

>>96198279
Jesus Christ you’re so retarded. Illiterate.

>>>24581788
>>>24581793
>>>24581843

>>96198305
>Authors like George R R Martin and J R R Tolkien see magic and machines as the same damn thing.
You literally claimed:
>Authors like George R R Martin and J R R Tolkien see magic and machines as the same damn thing.
I'm not sure you can convince other people that they're responsible for the stupid things you say.

>>96198279
No, they’re (Tolkien, etc) saying that magic is only magic when it’s seen as magic, or is sufficiently enchanting, mysterious, etc. The machines of Mordor are seen as magic because they’re occult and that level of infrastructural horror and abuse is not familiar. The elves don’t see what they do as magic either. They’re too used to it all.

Whether a cellphone or a wand is seen as magic really depends. You can’t just say “he conjured fire randomly, how is it not magic?” when the person who threw the fire may not see it as such.

Do you really think a person from the past wouldn’t see the 21st century as a magical, Atlantean one? In the same way that humans are elves.

>>96198319
That's a silly argument but, more importantly, it has nothing to do with what makes fiction sci-fi or fantasy.

>>96198310
Nah I’m on the toilet (and I fucked up my cross board post—see below) and I’m just laughing at you for not understanding Tolkien. If your elves still believe in magic then you’re doing your elves wrong.

>>>/lit/24581788
>>>/lit/24581793
>>>/lit/24581843

>>96198328
Or even /traditional games/, like this entire troll thread has been so far

>>96198330
>Please read my blog
Hahaha. No thanks, anon. Jesus christ man.

>>96198328
>That's a silly argument
It’s not silly at all. “Any sufficiently technology is indistinguishable from magic” is incredibly apt in literally any fiction. When physics is that considerate or artistically sophisticated then you know it’s closer to a machine.

>>96198336
You don’t like thinking for yourself, eh? You just blindly believe tropes and all the ironies and flaws that come with them, eh? You don’t like history, eh? You think magic is le unnatural when even people in the past didn’t see it that way, eh?

Please just fuck off. You are not my equal.

>>96198342
That has nothing to do with what sci-fi and fantasy are, anon. It's a silly quote from a mediocre author.

I could write to the paragraph limit of several posts about how 'magic' in Tolkien's universe behaves, the abstract nature of magic and power that governs that world.

But this retard would not understand any of it because he can't grok that fiction literally does not have any absolute rules and he's just grasping for a few bits of fantasy fiction he's heard of and never read so he can keep making this wacky argument.

He's just retarded. He hasn't read any fiction. If you tried to homebrew a game he'd still try to rules lawyer it as if you didn't rewrite half the rules. He's that fucking autistic.

>>96198330
>you don't understand tolkien
>your setting's elves must adhere to my headcanon for tolkien's elves!
Not the best advertisement for your tolkien thesis anon. Especially since it sounds like it hinges on a retarded argument about the definition of magic being something absolute. Which is always hilarious.

>>96198366
Tolkien literally said it’s sufficiently advanced art/tech, retard, and everything to Eru/God is just song/music the same way physics is seen as ‘the music of the spheres’ by famous scientists like Einstein.

Fuck off. He felt this way from his time in the war. He truly thought humans could be making more beautiful things more in tune with nature, rather than raping it.

>>96198383
>Especially since it sounds like it hinges on a retarded argument about the definition of magic being something absolute.
You’re not intelligent enough to see that this is precisely what he’s arguing against. Magic isn’t anywhere. It’s in the headspace. “Magic”. “It depends on the author”. Magic to one isn’t magic to another, and the bar for magic is higher or lower for some. The elves look to the wizards the same way men look to the elves, except the wizards go out of their way to don the wizardly guise while the elves do not.

>>96198414
What are you even arguing FOR, man?

>>96198342
>if magic is just science that hasn't been explained
>then the more vague the magic is the more it's definitely a logical machine!
there's depths to how retarded this guy is.

>>96198366
>the abstract nature of magic and power that governs that world.
It’s just nature. If you want to consider nature magical, the elves won’t fault you for it. Gandalf describes their workings as magic. He doesn’t define them as such.

>>96198418
I’m arguing basic common psychological sense that for some reason takes many fucking threads for it to sink in your gnarly ass brain matter.
>then the more vague the magic is the more it's definitely a logical machine!
If you weren’t stupid you’d understand that something either comes about intelligently or unintelligently. Magic is far too good to be true. Nature, evolution, is an overly sophisticated blind idiot, and it won’t entertain autistic artsy crap like sacrificing humans for better weather, not unless there’s some intelligence to its background.

Christ you can’t think. Do you think that a perfectly carved statue of Buddha having gay sex with Jesus would just naturally form into being by pure mathematical odds alone, without intelligence to create it? It’s like arguing that the 21st century could just pop up into being without humans. Wowee, i didn’t know nature could grow an AMC movie theatre!

>>96198414
Yes yes you read tolkien and are blown away because you've never seen anything present this kind of fantasy before and your efforts to make logical sense of the writing are probably very fun for you.

But christ man you really have not read that much have you. Branch out, experience some more fiction, get more varied fantasy under your belt, look into the folklore that inspired tolkien, read fucking fairy tales, and then tell me your silly little headcanon about elves is super duper serious and totally what tolkien thought and not just, as if perfectly fine for a thing to be, your own take on it.

>>96198445
...What in the genuine fuck are you even talking about anymore? Do you even know what board you're posting to?

>>96198445
Well, at the very least, you've helped me figure out whether it's a generational problem or just one mentally-handicapped anon who keeps insisting "sci-fi and fantasy are the same."

It's one mentally-handicapped and extremely angry anon.

>>96198420
You really can't put yourself in the headspace of a person living in a world before the scientific method, and can't imagine a world operating on such beliefs. Or magical elves who would similarly think that way because their world is that way. "It's just nature" in Tolkien's world? With how he felt about trees? It couldn't possibly be just nature as we know it.

>>96198454
You’re just confirming that you’re not intelligent enough to continue this conversation if you resort to insults and buzzwords and genuine defeatist confusion.

>>96198469
>You really can't put yourself in the headspace of a person living in a world before the scientific method, and can't imagine a world operating on such beliefs.
One of the Pliny’s was the first to assume that all magic is bullshit reinforces by alien intelligences/“demons”. It’s all smoke and mirrors. A ruse that rewards. It’s like paying an assassin to take out a rival. Except that assassin is inhuman.

>>96198470
What conversation? I just see some autist droning on about his autistic off-topic /lit/ essays, and people telling him he's fucking nuts. I thought this was a troll thread at first. Why bring up Jesus and Buddha having sex otherwise? But you're clearly in way too deep to be just another troll. What purpose does ANY of this malarkey serve? Do you even know anymore?

>>96198456
>or just one mentally-handicapped anon who keeps insisting "sci-fi and fantasy are the same."
A lot of people insist/believe this. Fighting against it is the equivalent of a Christian claiming their miracles are totally not magic, or the scientist claiming physics is totally not magic. It’s hilarious really.

>>96198470
>when people are aghast to how absolutely retarded and trapped in his own head this anon is
>he resorts to saying they're too low IQ to understand
>he's done this a hundred times in this thread
>it's his coping mechanism

>>96198489
Thanks for the confirmation.
>Why bring up Jesus and Buddha having sex otherwise?
That you can’t parse the thought experiment is hilarious. I’m telling you it’s one or the other. There is no third option.

>>96198495
Deal with it. A smart person calling a dumb person a retard will always be met with the dumb person lashing out.

You lost. You’re about as stupid as quantum quacks who think life is probabilistic rather than deterministic. Einstein was right and Bohr was a faggot.

>>96198504
See, your claim that your rather gay nonsequiters are "thought experiments" is why I'm not sure if you're a braindead troll or if you're being real here, especially since you have no answer to the question of what purpose this entire thread serves.

>>96198452
You realize that even the Elder Scrolls did what Tolkien did. The Dwemer are the most accurate type of elf to date.

>>96198469
The father of the atom was a pre-Jesus ancient Greek man. Science as a method is as old as time. The acknowledgment of the method is relatively recent.

>>96198517
>a smart person
We're at the "everyone but me is low IQ" stage of his meltdown guys.

>>96198546
Lol. Why do you think it’s acceptable to say “some races and ethnicities are taller and bigger and stronger than others”, but it’s not okay to say “some races and ethnicities are smarter and a lot more successful than others”.

Humans don’t like being wrong since it makes them look less intelligent. This is you right now.

>>96198524
>shallow and derivative video game setting rips off tolkien in superficial ways
>this means something about fiction
christ, even satire like Discworld would go over your head.

>>96198565
>rips of Tolkien
You mean ripping off basic exposure logic or basic human psychology? Tolkien didn’t invent the perception of something being seen as magic. He pulled a Clarke before Clarke, though.

>>96198536
Yes hello this is the cult of pythagoras calling. Yes our guy did figure out something neat about triangles, but would you like to hear our theories about the transmigration of the soul and our wacky dietary restrictions? Human development and science is totally linear!

>>96198565
Something being seen as magic or divine is as old as the human experience. No one ripped that from anyone. It’s just the human experience. It’s why magic and religion even exist at all.

>>96198571
>basic human psychology
>talking about elves in elder scrolls
this kind of wacky misfiring of neurons is usually a sign of brain damage.

>>96198579
The concept of alchemically refining the world’s materials went along with the idea that you could alchemically refine the body, and soul, since the human body is a part of divine nature.

Hermeric/alchemical thought was a major precursor to the modern scientific method and it’s sort of impossible to deny.

/tg/ - autis/tg/ibberish

>>96198592
You think the elves aren’t conscious? The Dwemer were “atheists in a world where gods exist”. They absolutely perceived the Aedra and Daedra as alien life forms.

Humans don’t like being lectured by other humans. Humans want to be lectured by something more than human.

>>96198602
Based Dwemer. Even had the Christian God existed, it wouldn’t stop a physicist from seeing God as just some freakishly powerful higher dimensional alien being.

>>96198585
Yes that was literally the point.

Anon read further back before joining a conversation. I asked this wacky idiot to please for the love of god read more books and broaden his understanding of fantasy in general instead of hyper fixating on Tolkien's elves and insisting his headcanon about them was a universal constant.

He replied talking about elder scrolls elves being like Tolkien's. When modern fantasy elves are all obviously derivative of tolkien, but Elder Scrolls is derivative of tolkien like pop music is of Jazz. They are shadows of shadows on plato's cave next to tolkien.

So yeah. That was the point.

>>96198593
You reach any further you'll pull something.

>>96198652
The Elder Scrolls is garbage anon. Only one type of elf is accurate in it. All other elves aren’t really Tolkien-esque. I don’t know why you think this.

>>96198681
He’s not even wrong. Where the fuck do you think the concept of Qi/Cultivation even came from? It’s an eastern alchemical concept. Inner/outer alchemy had parallels east to west. Pneuma in Greek means the same thing as Chi/Qi in the east. Breath, spirit, lifeforce, etc. It’s very annoying when you have morons assuming Qi is separate from crap like Mana or Pneuma or Prana, when it’s ALL just fucking lifeforce. Chi IS Mana.

>>96086313
I will hire bitcoin future doctors and lawyers to break into your house and shit on your computer

>>96084074 (OP)
YUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!
SLOPPA!

>>96198791
>knowing history and it’s ironic nuances is a bad thing, idiot even
Okay.

Consider that 99.99% of magic systems in fiction can be chalked up to sufficiently advanced technology indistinguishable from nature. Why? Magic is always far too convenient or far too constructed for the sake of the narrative or world. It’s all artificially considerate, or considered, by the author. The variables and parameters are just too much. It’s too machine like.

Fantasy is more advanced than science fiction proper. The more advanced and sophisticated something is, the smaller it becomes. Computers once took up whole rooms. What if technology eventually becomes indistinguishable from nature? What happens when nature takes shape in ways evolution wouldn’t originally allow for? What if evolution -wasn’t- a blind idiot and didn’t cause evolutionary dead ends or bottlenecks? What if nature responded to your actions? What if it entertained religion? Human sacrifice?

Consider that AI is much less complex than biological life and can still absolutely wreck the best humans at chess. Extend it to hypothetically biologically supported technology. Imagine if we could purpose biological life with artificial intent like that.

Spells have always looked and behaved like AI to me. Life. Magic is Alive.

But yes it’s all the same to me.

>>96199115
>Spells have always looked and behaved like AI to me.
So, a mistake in the eyes of god

>>96199135
God is the Machine. The God-Machine.

>>96199115
All rendered wholly incorrect the instant one uses the setting's assumptions of how things work informed by willful archaisms instead of yours informed by a downright dysfunctionally radical monist materialism, self-pastaing totalizing midwit.

>>96199115
Ita amazing just how many times this troll reposts shit. This exact post has been in multiple threads, copy pasted as if its some grand wisdom and not a reveal of the brain damage of the poster.

>>96200038
>>96200470
Nah he raises a good point. Fantasy is a lot more absurd in implication than typical science fiction. Casual disregard of things like the conservation of mass is horrifying and points to things like dimensional rape logic.

>>96199115
This is worse than that one time some retard argued that all magic must be explicitly divine in nature because I guess he read Campbell on shrooms and thought it was the most profound shit ever.

>>96203160
No, you really don't.

>>96203160
After an entire thread of nonsense, nobody cares anymore

>>96203188
>This is worse than that one time some retard argued that all magic must be explicitly divine in nature
Typically speaking magic came from the gods or other beings. People only started calling them miracles or something else to look better than other religions/gods.

You also have natural philosophers who argued nature WAS God. The pantheism debate. It was talk of God’s intimacy with everything. How nice.

Oh, barf! SLOPPA!!!

>>96203188
>This is worse than that one time
Okay Peter

>>96205190
The idea that the universe is a larger than life organism is something I adore. Elden Ring, etc.

>>96208058
The human body is already insanely complex as it is.

>>96084074 (OP)
Agreed.

>>96197750
If you had players, it would involve them and their willingness to buy into your idea.

>>96197750
Because to someone who isn’t an idiot, reality is still reality even if fictional. There will be rules within.

>>96215846
Rules determined by the creator, not you. It’s like you don’t understand how stories or the concept of fiction work, you dingus

>>96216089
>Rules determined by the creator, not you.
For those rules to be implemented, they would have to be real, even within fiction.
>b-but fiction isn’t real and it can be anything
You haven’t learned a single fucking thing.

>>96216519
>Maybe if I just repeat myself over and over and over again like a broken record, it will convince everyone to give up and agree out of pure pity for my brain damage
Bold strategy there, let's see if it pays off

>>96084074 (OP)
Terrible OPs are all the same.

>>96217684
Faggots all.

>>96199115
2spooky4me

>>96198330
>dude its all sufficiently advanced
Tolkien was a hack

>>96084074 (OP)
>white light, red light, UV are the same
>rap and symphony are the same
>an accounts ledger from 1998 and a 2020 postmodernist picaresque novel are the same
>a surgeon and a clinical technician are the same
>a clinical technician and an SAP technician are the same
>a soldier and a patriot are the same
>a soldier and a mercenary are the same
Your mouth and your anus are the same.
Your brain and your feces are the same.
This thread and your prev thread are the same.
OP and nogames are the same.

>>96084264
newfag